Butts Aerowing-The Only Way To Fly

[Master Oil Racing Team]

These photos are from the last test session I was at with Tim Butts. There are a number of people that are trying to track him down and I hope he does come aboard here at BRF. I miss not hanging out with him. He is a great friend.

I feel very fortunate to have been around Tim from the time he first got the alky drivers' attention with his innovative designs. I've got so many photos of Tim, I decided to scan them into his own personal file on my computer.

[Jeff Lytle]

Hi Wayne........

A Member here contacted me earlier this week:


"Talked to Tim a few minutes ago and I am sending him the web site
address. Look for him soon."


:D :D :D :D

[Jeff Lytle]

I've got so many photos of Tim, I decided to scan them into his own personal file on my computer.



So..............Whatcha' waiting for?? :D ??

POST EM!!!!! (Pretty please)

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

That is a Butts Aerowing Outrigger type hydro??? Wooooooo! I always wanted to see one of those, they are spoken of as being legendary! I still have one of his Aerowing Super C Stock hydros from the late 1970s to go with the Crescent Super C engine I have managed to piece together plus a Circa 1988 hydro that ran Formula E Modified. Maybe this is a nice start to honoring builder Tim Butts by putting out some more pictures to catalogue his designs constructed. This is very impressive. :)

[Jeff Lytle]

Say John........check this out, a pic of the "Windwalker" in action:

Butts Windwalker (http://www.boatracingfacts.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5395&postcount=22)

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

Here is an assortment of Butts Aerowings from the late 1970s in Calgary, Alberta where I got my first one tried a Merc 55H was tried on it (talk of under powered) to the local ones around this area of a similar vintage design to the circa 1988 version. They had their following.

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

A 1988 Butts Aerowing.

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

I was so happy with the ride in the Aerowing (circa 1980) and it was so hazy and hot out there, I just jumped outa the raceboat to get real cool real quick afterward. That was the first time I ever ran an early Mercury 44 cube Modified on her with a 4 pipe Quincy Stack set. Would you believe the local bylaw patrol enforcement was in action given me the gears not 15 minutes after having a run. Those weekend sailors at the yacht club across the river were not exactly amused with the noise! LOL! :)

[Master Oil Racing Team]

Thats a great shot John. I bet that sound rippled for miles around.

I'm guessing that the Windwalker in the photo is one and the same of the one from that testing session. I took those photos in May or June 1981. I will start posting some more photos of Tim's boats Jeff. It takes me about 1/2 hour per set of 5. Been looking at some scanners that will do multiples. I have shots of some of the different designs he went through, and a few from his shop in Romeo, Michigan and in Stafford, Texas. I don't have anything but Alky stuff though. The stock and mod guys will have to provide photos of those boats.

I need to find out from Eddie or Keith Brown whatever happened to my old boat "Hookin' Bull". That was the first C-D-F hydro he ever built. After we retired it we had it down below in my Dad's bar for awhile, then Jack Chance took it to his house. It was a very unique boat. Very successful for the first one.

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

The thing about that early Merc Gas Modified 44 cuber with the 4 pipes on the Super C Butts Aerowing was that it the engine in that picture was the first time it was run again (the Merc 44) since 1971 when I took her for a horrendous multi flip end over end cartwheel(s) session on of all things, A Swift Big D Hydro. It was mothballed that long! Because the Swift was totally shattered and when I repaired it, there was no way I was prepared to do that all over again even though I had run an Anzani A and continued to run C and D Stock hydros and Runabouts at that point in time, there is something that scared the beheeejezus outa me about that engine on any boat beginning with that Swift Big D. Obviously the Butts Aerowing Super C had no problem, that is why I was smiling and not bleedding all over myself from small plywood cuts like I did back in 1971! :)

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

Todays scanners are a quantum leap above what was going on just 5 short years ago. I am scanning old photos using a newer Lexmark X-1100 series 3 in one scanner, copier & fax that uses the 8.5 X 11 inch format with such high DPI ratings in color or black and white mode you almost reproducing the original to 99% of that original. Add to that the software packages to re-work the photos, the accuracy is shocking. This all in one Lexmark was on sale at Walmart for $89.00 yet! The other scanner I have is a big 11 X 17 inch half page format 32 bit scanner that cost me $500.00 five years ago and there is just no comparisson to the Lexmark at all the lexmark is so that far ahead. It allows you to fill the bed of the scanner completely and the software then lets you set your scanning parameters of what you want scanned than takes scant minutes plus levels of saving the images to as small as about 10K. The only dinosaur I got running here for these two beasts is a Twin Pentium II 450 dual processor server board with lots of memory and SCSI drives and its still not a slouch for getting all that processing done to post on here. :)

[F-12]

Wayne, those are some beautiful pictures of a beautiful boat. I am kicking myself in the head that that boat was on the water 2 years after I quit for a time off the water. You caught the essence of that design and made it a piece of art. I am sorry I missed that time in Tim's evolution. I also take back what I said about Tim being 20 years ahead of his time...............Make it Thirty years ahead of his time.

[Jeff Lytle]

No S$%T !!! :D :eek: :eek: :D

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

You really have to ask yourself what Tim was dreaming about in full color and stereo sound when he was dreaming while sleeping? Ahead of his time seems to fit that with him to a T, T for Tim! I had only heard strange roumors of that one and it never dawned on me that the Master team's raceboat logo on here was that very raceboat! Just how many "different" designs did Tim produce in all those years? I also heard that he had quite some influence on Schumaker hydros and some others on top of that, that were his understudies something like violin maker Stradevarius?? I hear that making hydros these days is still no easy business to satisfy anyone all the time, what is Tim Butts doing these days? Hoping its now teaching the unwashed like some of us?? Fantastic raceboats from a truly fantastic raceboat builder (and mine are staying put here too under lock and key!) :)

[Master Oil Racing Team]

WOW! Don't know what to say John. When I saw that boat....I wanted to drive it! Didn't get all the photos I wanted. On the uncropped photos there is the pickup boat in the background. Normally I would have been in that boat to shoot the angle of attack as Tim passed. My best recollection is that I had just returned from a Texas Railroad Commission Hearing with my suit and tie on and changed into jeans to get some shots of the "windwalker".

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

That raceboat is the stuff of rumor and legend around these parts and really only known to Butts Aerowing owners as rumor and legend. There are those that said such a raceboat could not exist outside of the lil 1/25 scale stuff because it would take too much power to lift her. I always took the notion that it was developed, if it ever existed at all, to be kept down because all that horsepower that was available. I have seen 4 point hydros before, there was even one built here to run a 20H on but not a pickelfork way back in the early seventies by the notorius local runabout builders, Bruce and Les Barton. A Merc 20H just did not have the power to lift that crazy thing and back then it had a conventional front on it, pickelforks were only in the inventives hazy dreams at that point so they abandoned the project. The one thing they liked about a 4 point is just how well it went around corners but that was all,otherwise it was glued to the water. Tim Butts clearly took the concept all the way to the stars. This site brought what was a rumor into a reality for me. I have already emailed other Aerowing owners on the Wind Walker this evening! Who says you need an F1 or CanAm Group 7 car in your garage! Just open the door on that Wind Walker! You just went to pickelfork heaven! LOL! Has this been a weekend for revelations!! Mnay thanks to you and to the maste builder Tim Butts! :)

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

Back in the 1990s, I was offered and bought a Butts Aerowing already posted small here that evidentally was a real smoker at the 1988 APBA Modified Outbaord Nationals in FE running some Formula E version of a Merc 44 Modified. Evidentally after that even that raceboat disappeared until I was offered it and brought it home, it had no front cowl and was basically primered and left that way.

This is the stuff of legend! That hydro has a left single step sponson but the right is 2 step! The hydro has a tunnel right to the shortened transom and very short after planes. I saw it in a 1988 movie of that APBA Nationals but there was no display of the cornering problems I have had with it? I suffered extreme high speed blow outs with it at speeds most Merc 44 D/FE powered raceboats could not get to, that causes the rear of the boat to lift and swing alternating sideways from left to right and back again to the point where at speeds others could not do it was ready to roll. Scared?, you bet I was/am as it would develop speeds no one else could get to but get it to turn around a corner, not a chance! An oval tracker is not much good if it can't do both, that is go down those straights and then corner, SO?? Why in the movie could it do both and win?

I would sure like to get this figured out but it requires Tim Butts as well as that owner/driver of that era that got it going so successfully in 1988 to fill in those technical gaps. To this date she has that crazy high speed but that is no longer out of control, but, to turn her is still the big problem so what am I missing that is sure not the case in the movie? The only change I made was to run a custom made Kamic eared 4 blade prop instead of a 3 blade cleaver to stabilize straightway performance. It has inproved around the corners but is still wild and wants to hook??? and then? Why did the boat disappear off the face of the earth the way it did, until I came along and so far no one has come up with anything other than more mystery and more questions?

Can this be for real? About that Aerowing hydro I have here? Can anyone fill in the technical questions I would like to see answered. I am at a loss. :)

[Master Oil Racing Team]

John it takes someone smarter than me to explain the tendencies of a boat, but I'll tell you of a similar experience with one of Tim's boats. We had a new 350 hydro and we did our normal setup, but it would not corner good. Unlike an Aerowing typically is, it was wild in the turns. Our B Konig had good power and the boat couldn't handle it. Nothing we tried worked.

At the UIM World Championships at Dayton, Ohio, the Americans ran time trials to pick the 5 drivers for the U.S. I happened to come across the time sheets recently and saw that all my lap times were within one or two hundreths of a second. I was consistent, but on the edge the whole time. Just couldn't push it anymore in the turns. My time put me sixth, so I was out.

I loaned my boat to a friend Guiseppe Landini from Italy. He didn't talk any English, but we always somehow got along real well. He put a 3 bladed Rollo cleaver on that boat, and I have never seen such a dramatic change. He finished 2nd overall. Guiseppe gave me that prop. It was the best B hydro ride I ever have, and to this day I can't figure out why we gave it up. We ran it until the end of that season and quit running 350 hydro. We sold it to BRF member Neil Bauknight.

How that prop settled that boat down is a mystery to me. Maybe you should try a two blade.

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

What you said just gave an me your idea some fresh thought in me. Two blade props are pretty much long gone around here with nothing but 3s and 4s being the norm BUT many 4 blades here were made from identical matched 2 blade ears, so back to to some trying, never tried. Its seems so strange that a Butts Super C hydro sporting a Merc 44 could corner and straightway that they do and then run into this later model spooky hydro that did not want to do either when you load the horsepower on her intended for her to use in the first place. In the small picture we had to make up raceboats at a meet for D-Stock class, so we had a 135lb driver running a Merc 55H that performed like the motor, no problems, but jam a D or FE Merc 44 on her and it brought out the worst in her. Maybe it is all prop and the setup to go with it? Thanks for the advice. :)

[Mark75H]

Neal appears to be registered under 2 names

[Joe Silvestri 36-S]

I remember seeing this boat at the Dayton U.I.M. race in the early 80's. I was a very young kid and remember thinking the boat was something from outerspace. It had big diameter hoses running from the cockpit to the motor and the design of the boat itself was incredible! I'd never seen anything like it. Still today, looking at the photos of the aerowing outrigger, not sure of its actual name, it gives me goosebumps. I wish I could see this boat in person today. Anyone know if it is still around?

[Master Oil Racing Team]

John--I forgot to mention that the boat in the Avatar isn't the Windwalker. The Windwalker was built probably a little over a year after Tim built "Vibora de Cascabel". In that photo that Rusty Rae took, the stern portion is obscured by spray. (Note that the sponson are floating through the turn.) You can see some of the similarities in the boats, however.

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

That is one very startling looking hydro! :)

When you compare hull pictures you can see similarities all over the place that tells you its a Tim Butts hydro between the various years of variants and even depending what the hull was used for. Did Tim ever have a trademark logo for his hydros as such? Do you have any idea just how many raceboats did he produce over his span as a builder?

[Jeff Lytle]

The sponsons are floating cause' it looks like you have a left hand full o' pipes !! :D

I used to use a 2 stage air slide system in my 700 cause' my forearm used to cramp from holding the pipes up, and it looked cool too!
Got it from Kay.

[Master Oil Racing Team]

How come Kay never told me about that? But then again, he never told me about how you could save the pipes that would fall off by aiming them forward over the cockpit.

In Texas we have a lot of ground to cover and I always had one of those gripper things to squeeze while driving down the highway. The photo was taken at Yelm, Washington, and what I always remember through the turns was that when the right sponson patted, my helmet bottomed out and blocked my vision for a split second.

[Jeff Lytle]

The 1st time I saw one of Kay's air slide systems, I knew I had to have one.

Really cool set up-----2 air switches that were mounted just ahead of the throttle so I could flick them back and forth with my pinky. The 1st one would pull the pipes up 1/2 way, and the 2nd brought them up the rest. Knocking both switches back released the pressure so they would slide back.
I really only needed 1, since I always ran the rails on the outside, wide open with the pipes up 1/2 way anyway. The pneumatic cylinders were mounted on the cockpit side beside the fuel tank, with a throttle cable running to the pipes.
All done with push in type fittings and a can of R-12 refrigerant.
Kay explained to me the reason he designed it to be a 2 stage slide was the smaller displacement engines would barf if the pipes were pulled up too fast. Doing it in 2 stages worked better.

Neat stuff.

[Master Oil Racing Team]

It never came up too fast? It's amazing the things racers come up with.

[Jeff Lytle]

Neither came up all that fast, or so I thought, but I can understand Kay's thinking.

[David Mason]

The race in Huntington IN, 6-4 and 6-5 Mod race with a few stock classes invited, there was a Butts that won CMH on Saturday with a Yamato on it. He flat smoked them, turns out he was 20 pounds underweight to. Oh well, boat looked cool, and performed well, even to todays standards.

Steve Bullhise (spelling) is the owner driver from Holland MI. In addition the Pro Antique boats there were awesome to look at. Saw Bill Seebolds old Byers Craft there, Duke Johnson had it. Spoke to Duke, nice family that is. Nice restored Byers craft, I think it was Bill's A or B boat. Marshal Grant was the boat owner if memory serves me right. I took a nasty spill there and it rung my bell, so maybe Duke can correct me if I am mistaken on the Byers History.

I live not far from Dick, my dad sees him now and again. I also shoot Trap with his helper Phil each week. Phil pounded many a brass nail in his day.

Dave

[Duke Johnson]

David, Hope all is well, it was nice finally meeting you in Huntington. Get well soon. That was Marshall's B-C-service hydro that Billy ran before the Butts series boats. My nephew Walter won C-service Hydro in his first week-end of driving to take the Johnson's to 4 generations of Antique Outboard Racing in that Byers.

[jrome]

Here are three pictures of Tim Butts driving Wayne's boats; one picture with the famous V8; and one of Charlie Bailey driving Wayne's T73. Wayne has a funny story about Baldy and the Shaft Newsletter to go along with the picture of Charlie Bailey.

[smittythewelder]

Wayne, if you're still following this thread, I'd be interested to hear about the operating characteristics of that Windwalker, as compared to the more conventional Butts hydros. Maybe 15 years ago, Ron Jones Jr. built an Unlimited with some roughly similar ideas about venting excess lift. The second owner told me that boat was very good on smooth water, but that if it got to bouncing around in rough water it would spill or vent too much air, and really beat him up. As a kilo boat it would have been terrific. What was your experience with that outboard? I'm assuming that idea was not that the boat would be any faster with the same power than a standard Butts, but that it would have a lot less sensitivity to wind gusts and attitude changes.
Finally, were any more of them built, and when were they last raced?

Thanks in advance!
--Smitty

[Jeff Lytle]

Bet Tim had sum bugs on his teeth after that ride :D :D

[Master Oil Racing Team]

Yeah Smitty, I'm still following the thread. Made a big loop to San Francisco & back--4800 miles worth. Left Albuquerque yesterday morning & got back last night.

I never drove the Windwalker. The photos were of its maiden voyage if I remember correctly. Tim tested it about 3 months before my last race in Berlin. I didn't make another race until two years later at Alex as a spectator. Never saw it run and don't recall a conversation with Tim about its handling characteristics. Short of Tim coming on to tell us about it, probably Joe Rome would be the best bet. Think this was the only one made. It may have been inspired by the kilos at Waco, Texas in 1980. And I think you are correct--made to be fast but stable at the higher speeds we kept attaining.

Tim and I ran kilos with competiton setups to see what the boats would do. When you don't have any testing time, you just make the best guess and go with it. Neither one of us guessed right. The water was too smooth and it was really too hot for the engines to perform to the max. I never was able to open mine up because it was flying on the edge the whole time.

I didn't see Tim go through the traps. We pitted at a launching ramp next to the river and you had to go left to get to the river. The view was blocked by trees. My Dad and I were talking to Jimbo McConnell about some UIM stuff when Tim made his run. It was in the same boat that we dueled with in Dayton. We heard the engine screaming then suddenly there was silence. The crowd hollered and we ran over to the bank. We got there after it was all over. The boat upside down and Tim in the water with his chute deployed. He had one of those parachutes like drag racers wore. That was the only time I ever knew of Tim to blow over.

This picture of my boat was taken at that kilo event. There are some similarities between this boat and the Windwalker, but you can wonder about how the windwalker may have made the attitude not quite so precarious. With most of the midsection gone it we might have been able to pull the pipes up all the way. I can remember how hairy that ride was. Having the power, but not being able to use it. Tim, if I remember correctly, went out after me. He may have made a setup change and thought it would work, but he pushed it too hard. Also rivers are kind of tricky and I think that's what got him--a sudden change.

[WharfRat]

as usual, AWESOME pic Wayne !!:)


Kinda noticed you haven't been around, glad to have you back, sir !

[Master Oil Racing Team]

Thanks Scott, but someone else took that of my boat. Wish I could have had my camera when Tim went flying, but we were busy with UIM politiks. Going to try to have someone hookup my new computer wireless next Friday. I'll give you a call when its up.

Left our race course here at Barbon Monday 14th and went by three race courses in San Antonio, Firebird Lake in Phoenix, and Golden Shores at Needles, California. Passed close to two I never raced at. Havasu and Parker. With all the history at those two places, I hope I make it sometime. Good to be back though.

[WharfRat]

well Wayne, iffin' you wanna crawl back in one, I'll take pictures of you :eek:


:D :D :D

[Dan M]

Wayne,

I had heard a story that the reason that Tim blew over was that he kept moving forward in the boat as it got high and had "pulled the pin" on the chute and that had caused him to blow it over. Don't know if it's truth or rumor. Tim's the one who would know for sure.

Dan

[Master Oil Racing Team]

You know Dan, there's something in the back of my mind telling me that it was something weird, and maybe that's it. For some reason I didn't take a single picture there or have any notes to refer to, but I seem to recall sitting in the suburban with Tim describing the situation. I forgot who gave me the photo I posted, but I think there are either some photos or a movie of Tim's flip out there. Maybe someone at the Waco Kilos might remember.

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

What an awful feeling that must have been! Boat is going / riding ever higher so you creep forward to compensate a bit and with a wooosh/bang, your chute deploys because the pin was pulled and your floating on your turkey a couple hundred feet behind the boat, that in this case went over. Oh my gawd! The G-Force from a deployment like that must have felt some one trying to rip your spine out with your lungs attached! Amazing. :)

[Jeff Akers]

Hmmm, seems like this hapend to another hero of mine.
"Evil Knievel's Snake river jump" :(

Great thread and great story! :cool: :D

[Jeff Lytle]

I wore a both Lifeline and Security chute jackets. To "Accidently" pull the pin would have been nearly impossable to do, but with racing, who knows?? Anything IS possible

[Master Oil Racing Team]

Yeah Jeff, When I read Dan's post I thought about the same scenario that John posted. How scary. But that's not what happened. It's not clear to me, but if there is a rumour involving the chute it may go back to Ray Hardy. Tim, Ray and I think Bob Smith wore the parachutes. The only ones to flip with one one that I knew about were Ray and Tim. Ray flipped in a turn and the lanyard was so long, it never popped open. Ray was a frequent visitor and it may have been as a result of their conversation that Tim shortened his lanyard. It may be that on his run Tim tried to move forward and was restricted by the lanyard or it may have hung up on something. I am beginning to think however, it was after the blowover he had problems with it. Only Tim would be able to tell us. What were your experiences with the chute Jeff?

[Jeff Lytle]

When I ordered my Security, I told them it was for PRO racing........They changed 2 things: The skid collar was back further so I could lift my head while kneeling, and the lanyard was shorter than they normally were.
I was told that unless the chute either fully deployed, or at least was pulled out all the way, it could do more harm than good. Imagine hitting the water with that big lump on your back the wrong way :eek:

I never went swimming with the Security, but did with the Lifeline. It didn't have a skid collar, and had a longer line. It was similar to the Gentex as far as the leg straps went. They buckled up on either side of your gonads. The Security had the thigh skirts to take the impact.
I went out in the 1st turn at Valleyfield. I have no idea if the chute deployed fully or not. (The gonads were fine :) ) I do remember the feeling of being all tangled up in chute lines when I came to the surface though........Not nice at all. The rescue team in Valleyfield was top notch though. They were in the water with me in what seemed like seconds. All was fine.

Chutes jackets were designed for 120 MPH + blowovers, we with the speeds we went in the corners were no where near that speed. I just liked the extra piece of mind it gave me since a blowover was always the type of spill I feared the most.

Remember one thing about the lanyard getting "hung up". Most of the line was nested inside a spring, that had quite a bit of give to it before it had enough "umph" to pull the clevis pin. There was a small braided string looped around the clevis to keep it from accidently pulling out without a good strong tug. The string loop had to break before the clevis would pull out. The other end of the string was attached to the top of the chute to pull it out quickly after you and boat parted company. The string would then break off as the lanyard stretched to it's limit.

That's me in my Pugh 700ccH........See how the static line looks like it is stretched tight? It would have taken another good 3 feet of pull after that to pop the pin.

[jrome]

I have so many movies of Tim. I filmed all most all of Tims testing so he could see what the boats were doing, but they are all in beta. I have alot of tapes but nothing to play them on any more. Tim never really knew
for sure about the chute. The only thing for sure is the pants worked great.

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

The only deployment I ever had was driving that Butts later model Aerowing with an FE Mod Merc 44 here testing props when the whole boat lifted and the back end started to sway side to side, spit me out, the chute pack on the Security jacket deployed. That was slow by any comparisson to your Alkys but that woosh / bang and jolt is something I will always remember, just that once and I am praying never again. My Aerowing remained upright, the ignition tether cap popped off killing the Merc , the current brought her right back to me, I got back in her, scopped up the lines and chute (minnow catcher!) and paddled to shore, not far away. I can still imagine what that felt like and sounds like, but at your speeds, you would never hope to want to feel or want hear that ever again either. Jeff! No damage that time and years later, see what technology can do! The raceboat suffered nothing! I hear that, that was not the case for quite of few Alky drivers who dumped over the years and got fouled in the cute lines. The only thing scarier is dumping and getting run into or run over by the guy behind you.

[Jeff Lytle]

Oh yeah !! I hear you on that one.

I lost a good friend Vic Pede' in Acworth Ga. that way. Never forgot that weekend..........Long drive home.

[Master Oil Racing Team]

I did't know that's what happened to Vic. Another friend of mine Erwin Zimmerman from Austria was run over. Lower unit in the helmet. I was run over once, but by luck and the skills of a stock racer I came out okay. The course was so short and it was so cold it was hard to keep the engines lit even with the smallest props. So we jacked our 350 up high as we could and still pickup water. I was first in the turn, but I hit a wave and the boat swapped ends. No lower unit in the water for control. When the boat flipped over backwards it threw me under water. I could hear 10 or 11 propellers churning up the water and I knew I was coming up under them. I stuck my right arm up so the drivers could see. One guy in a stock B had a dead aim on me and swerved to the right. It was in the days before a picklefork and the left part of the bow where a fork would be now hit me in the back of the helmet. That knocked me forward and flat face down. The left sponson went over me and the fin sliced my Gentex all the way through to in inside lining but no more. I didn't know the driver and never saw him again, but I am very thankful for his reflexes and driving skills.

[smittythewelder]

One of the Unlimited teams talked about, and maybe experimented with, a drag chute on the boat (this was ten years before capsules, at least). It was to be triggered by the driver when he felt he was getting too far up to come down again. I think the idea was dropped because the consensus was that the driver's reactions wouldn't be quick enough for the chute to snap the boat down, since the deployment takes some time.

Some of you might remember hearing about (or seeing, or trying) a water-brake. As described to me, this was a pneumatic cylinder attached to the transom and powered by a Freon canister, which would thrust an aluminum finger into the water when triggered by the driver. Maybe these were only tried on tunnel OPCs. As the story went, the first experimental version had too big a finger, and the braking action nearly through the poor driver out through the front of the cockpit! I guess the tunnel-boat racers decided that they could pretty much hit the corners flat-out (occasionally ripping the left sponson clean off of the boat!!) and didn't need brakes. But on a tail-dragging (as opposed to prop-riding) PRO boat, a water brake might be nice to have when, as in your picture, you are getting near the point of no return.
What do y'all know about this?

[Mark75H]

I never heard of an OPC driver going out the front because of water brakes, but there were a number of boats that had the transom ripped off the first time the brakes were applied. :confused:

Water brakes are allowed in Mod as long as they don't have an actual steering effect, but I've never seen anyone use them.

[Master Oil Racing Team]

I've seen a picture in either Powerboat or Powerboat & Waterskiing (UK) of Renato Molinari in a tunnel coming apart after he applied a waterbrake. It was a new experiment and I believe it may have occurred in London at some anniversary celebration where Princess Margaret was in attendance. I bet some of the members over the pond might remember.

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

We were having a club develomental race at a place called Lockport. Similar to the name, we were above that giant mechanical weir with a nice short oval course. One driver, Jim Luzny was trying out his new copy of the much revered Giles pickelfork DSH and was really nicely hung in the air and all of a sudden he got punched knees first right through the hydro taking the steering wheel/hub and some cable with him and that long front cowl with him as he broke through it and ended about 50 feet up in front of the ignition killed boat. He hit a 2 X 12 waterlogged construction plank right on the end of his Merc gearcase torpedo! That was the water brake! :) How the gearcase survived that is still a mystery, the thing worked like a log splitter and turned the prop into junk, but man did he stop in a big hurry! Is that the idea of a water brake or not? :)

[Mark75H]

You can ask our member "hydroplanes" about that kind of stop. He had a piece of plywood skewered on his bullet and took a rocket ride thru the front framing and cowl of a Schumacher hydro .... a nanosecond before it nosedived. The wood was a half moon shape about 6" the long way

[Master Oil Racing Team]

Exiting before a nose dive is the preferred method regardless of speed. I once encountered a 2 X 12 myself on the Neches River in Beaumont, Texas. The river was in slight flood stage from heavy rains. Tommy Weatherbee from Corpus Christi hit something and flipped. In the process his own boat cut his left little finger off. Louis Williams was right behind him and turned right, I forget the other driver next to Louis' right , but he turned left. They crashed together. There were three guys in the water rushing downriver and it was all the rescue boat could do to catch up with Tommy. Then in the C Runabout race everyone jumped the gun but me. All I had to do was cruise to the finish. Suddenly a 2 X 12 that had been floating longways turned sideways and there was no place to go. I went over the top and the bolts holding my 2 cylinder C Konig pulled through the transom. I went forward over the steering wheel but all was OK until my bow hit the embankment. I had no steering and when the nose of my DeSilva hit I flew out onto the bank of the river.

[smittythewelder]

Well, ah, no that's not quite what I meant by a water brake!!!

Even though I had the foam padding on the floorboards, I still always wore kneepads just in case of some hard exit like that. I'd hate to go out of a lie-down boat head-first. Your head would probably be okay, but wouldn't you likely break arms, wrists, hands?? How are lie-down boats affecting injuries generally? They just look a little more dangerous to me than our old kneelers.

[Master Oil Racing Team]

I only ran one a couple of years and to me the biggest problem was keeping tabs on the other drivers. It is much easier in a kneeler to know where the other drivers are. On the other hand, it is easier to stay in a laydown through hard turns when your sponsons are catching some hard waves and holes in the water. I don't know if a kneeler would be any safer if you stuff one. I couldn't walk for a week after my knees clipped the top of a steering wheel and my arms were all scratched up from the nails and wood that I went through. What was really scary with the laydown though was a fish I passed at Yelm. It was about 2-3 lbs. He jumped out of the water about level with my windshield and a couple of feet from my left sponson. From where I viewed it, it looked like it was shot out of a canon toward me. Don't know if the windshield would have deflected it or not. My mentor and old racing partner Clayton Elmer was knocked colder than a mackerel when he hit a fish in his kneeler.

[smittythewelder]

Funny! Years ago. Wartinger told me about making a kilo run at Delake when a seagull flew across the course and bounced off his helmet. Even though Bob was driving one of the small stock boats, he said the impact was tremendous.

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

Here I am watching a heat race at Beloit, Wisc and a D hydro driver caught that duck right in his chest at high speed and the duck deflected with its neck broke right down in front of the transom somehow. When he was asked what he was gonna do with that pretty male Mallard with the kinked neck, his response was simply he was gonna skin em and eat em!

Same day in another class heat after that one produced the duck this one was about a dumping and the pickup boat brought in the driver that had "his leg missing at the knee"! Well I freaked momentarily that he lost half his leg but calmed down when I realized seconds later it wasn't bleeding. By this time some people were in hysterics laughing at me! The other pickup boat was out there still too and came back with his hydro in one piece and his artificial leg as another piece too! He was so glad they found it and put it smack back on after he waved it at us with a smile and laugh because I suppose he knew it was freaken us so he played that to the hilt! :)

[Master Oil Racing Team]

Tommy Weatherbee flipped his B hydro and freaked out when he found the little finger on his hand (I forgot which one) was missing. Then all was OK when he realized it was the one he cut off at Beaumont a couple of years earlier.

[Guy]

Yeah Jeff, When I read Dan's post I thought about the same scenario that John posted. How scary. But that's not what happened. It's not clear to me, but if there is a rumour involving the chute it may go back to Ray Hardy. Tim, Ray and I think Bob Smith wore the parachutes. The only ones to flip with one one that I knew about were Ray and Tim.

Wasn't Jim Stone's death (in Elmer Grades 700) at Laredo mostly due to his Security Chute deploying?
I seem to remember hearing some opinions that had Jim NOT wore a chute, he "may" have lived.

Guy

[Master Oil Racing Team]

I don't recall Jim having a chute. My memory is fuzzy about stuff from 25 years ago, but it don't remember one. What I do remember is standing on a hill overlooking the course while doing a radio interview. I had just come in from my qualifying run and Jim was next up. The radio guy wanted me to describe what it was like to run the course, and I was doing that as Jim came down the front straight. If you remember, he sat kind of funny in a hydro, wedged in at an angle, about half laying down. He had a 3 blade cleaver and the tail was running high. He was going over a hundred when the back in kind of popped up from a wave and the nose clipped the top of another wave. He shot right out the front and his hydro just coasted straight ahead until it stopped. It was kind of remeniscent of Dale Earnhardt's crash. It didn't look that bad. Jim just flew out and hit the water. The rescue boat was right there. Immediately they all through their hands up and motioned for the ambulance crew to be ready. I cut off the interview and went down to the ramp to help keep the crowd away. According to what I heard about the cause of death was a broken neck. The way he shot out, his head hit the water first. That was the the race I would like to forget the most. Mary Kirts died of a heart attack the night before, then Jim the next day, and the day of the finals would have been blown out and cancelled if it weren't for the tunnels. I don't think any of us Americans raced in the finals. Even if the hydros could have run, we didn't feel like racing after all that.

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

I met Elmer Grade in Florida at his business location and he told me about the complete stop in racing activities due to the death of his driver in a big Yale hydro. I must have talked to him half the afternoon and being in his low 80s, he reminiced alot about those heady days of racing prior to the tragedy. I was there with the notion that I might buy a D or F Konig or both from him but when he heard from me that I was rebuilding Quincy Flatheads from C,D and 44 inch Fs he asked me why I would want deal with Konigs when I had those?? Had I run them each since I overhauled them?? Then we got into his ideas on Quincys!! I mentioned Anzanis and he talked about Bill Tenny and what was going on toward the northwest. He spent his time talking me out of that, meaning buying any Konigs, and I didn't, entirely! My next trip his wife was quite ill so seeing him was impossible. I am not sure if he is still living but if I could not get to O F Christner before he passed on because I was late getting to FLorida that next time, talking to Elmer, then the historian was a pure pleasure.

Some of us have come to realize that as engine power, boat and prop technologies got more, faster and bigger that we were straying away from those early years of Speedytwins, Eltos and KG-Mercs into speeds so fast that it left technologies somewhat behind and playing catch up with what became one of the most dangerous and one of the most flashy motor sports in the world. With those risks come techonolgical advances, injuries and deaths. Those risks are the choices people made, irrespective of potential consequences both good and bad. When they were bad they were horrible and there was what became and extreme motor racing sport going on here that did that.

[Master Oil Racing Team]

John,

What a great visit that must have been. Elmer is another one of those true gentlemen of the sport of boat racing. Jim's death could have indeed been the catalyst that got a lot of guys out of racing. I don't know that it was the primary reason, but could have been the final straw. At that time we had just come off of 18-20% inflation 20% + interest rates, huge unemployment and Jimmy Carter just bummed everyone out and said our better years were behind us. The inflation plus low dollar devaluation made the Konigs and Yamatos very pricey. Plus the expense of parts. High gas prices, lines at the pumps, etc. A number of racers quit probably due to concerns about their jobs and families.

Elmer Grade is another one of those that needs his history posted.

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

I certainly wished I could have spent more time with Elmer Grade and that history generated around his racing tream efforts. If there is anyone close by that could tape his history for transcription nearby like Tim Small, (they are personal friends as far I am understand) if he had the resources to do so in the off times he might have available, could try that? I understand that Elmer's wife of many many years passed away sooner after I was finished my second Florida trip staying in norh Tampa. Like you said Elmer wa/is a true gentleman of the sport and that history from his perspective needs recording and preservation sooner than later. :)

[smittythewelder]

John has just said something very good here, something I have thought of from time to time. We need to help the better journalists and writers among us to do lengthy interviews of the old-timers before we lose them! Thanks to Ron and this site we get a lot of great anecdotes, but good comprehensive biographical interviewing takes some skill and planning. Craig Fjarlie in Region 10 has done some of this for the Seattle Outboard Assn. newsletter, but that's just a start.
Interestingly, it seems to be easier to interview someone if you aren't well-acquainted. Therefore, a younger guy like Fjarlie (he'll like that!) who did his racing in the '80s and '90s, was able to get good stories out of Hu Entrop, who last raced in about '63 or so.
Besides Craig, and Rusty Rae, I don't know who might have a talent for this. But maybe a mediocre interview is better than no interview, so I guess I better put some batteries in my tape recorder.

[Master Oil Racing Team]

You're absolutely right Smitty. That Hu Entrop interview would be great reading. You know how to get ahold of Rusty? Joe Rome and I have been trying to find him for awhile. Seems like Ron was planning on interviewing someone a few months back. Just found out today he taught journalism. What a combination. A guy that can tell the funniest stories and and know the proper way to do it. We also need to find Tim Chance and Lee Hertz. Wish Ann Strang was still around. I had a tape of a lengthy interview I did of Dieter Konig in 1975. It was still set where I stopped it at a Berlin boat show with interviews of Karl Bartel, Kurt Mischke, Hans Krage, and Jerry Drake. I listened to parts of the tape as I rewound it and it was still good. When it got to the end, the leader came loose. I haven't found anyone to repair it, and I don't want to mess it up myself. I found a good interview that Rosalind Nott, editor of Powerboat & Waterskiing, did of the Seebolds in the late 70's. And they have another whole generation of stories since that time.

[Jeff Akers]

He did some great interviews wen he wrote for "Boatracing Magazine".
Is he a member here ?
If not he should be ! :D

[Master Oil Racing Team]

These two made quite a team when it came to promoting racing.

[F-12]

What a great picture, Wayne. It looks like your Dad was paying attention to what was going on and Tim was paying attention to whatever he was getting ready to eat. You are correct in saying they both are great promoters. Both have done wonderful things for our sport. Thanks again.......

[Master Oil Racing Team]

Charley....You are correct about Tim being a great promoter. He worked constantly with my Dad to bring international racing in the PRO division to the U.S. Not only a great driver and boat designer/builder. He was an excellent spokesman for racing. He is very intelligent, articulate and good with either print or broadcast medium. And he was always fun to be around. Hopefully, he'll join us here soon.

[F-12]

I can't say enough about Tim regarding his talent in all fields of outboard racing. Even though it was his choice and I presume his best interest to chase other goals, I think his best work was yet to come. I know his mind is always working and I think he still has ideas and designs that have yet to be pursued. Wayne, you would be the most knowledgable in this field since you have probably spent more time with him than most. What do you think about Tim coming back and revolutionizing our sport again? I think he could do it.

[F-12]

I also forgot to tell you the picture of Tim modeling his suit and jacket is 'True Tim Butts'. Always the showman................

[Master Oil Racing Team]

Tim always looked forward. He could come up with something that at first sight you wonder "why do that?". Then when you understand, it makes sense. Not everything he tried worked, but he would use that as a step toward something that would work. Joe Rome has got a story on a boat he designed that was so successful that a rule change had to be made overnight to keep it from use.

Tim, as successful as he was in racing, is also down to earth and likes to clown around. You know you got me thinking, and I don't recall him ever bad mouthing anyone, or really even getting mad.

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

For me this thread is very special. I got my first Aerowing back in 1980 and another one in the early 1990s. When you finally have the name, face/pictures and raceboats, that is all truly honoring Tim Butts personally and as a legend to our sport. It would truly be nice to see him here participating in some way he would want to and we would sure be glad to hear from him. :)

[jrome]

Wayne said that I had a story about a boat Tim had that was outlawed. Tim and I went to Europe twice to race OB. The first time we went to Nottingham, England in 1984 and the next year to Boretto, Italy in 1985. We raced against the Russian team. The Russians had a boat called a "Hydrocat." We all knew that when Tim saw a boat, that he had already started on improving on the design. He told me on the way back from Europe that he could cross the Hydrocat with the Aerowing. Then OMC called him along with 4 or 5 other boat builders for the 45 SS project. Tim worked many, many hours and we tested many, many hours. When it was time to take the boat to Dayton, Ohio, Tim had the boat running really fast. It was quite evident that it was the fastest boat at Dayton. That night the racing commission changed the rules concerning the dimensions of the boat specs which made our boat illegal. Tim never complained about the rule change. He tried to modify the boat to accomodate the new rules, but it is sad that we never saw how that boat would have really performed in a real race. I will always believe that this boat would have been the best one that Tim had ever developed. It is a shame that he never got the chance. That might have been one of the reasons that he decided to get out of building boats. We weren't used to having the rules change in the middle of a boat race. He always amazed me all the years that we were together. I miss him and hope that he comes on board with BRF so that we can share all the great memories together. Thanks for the good times Tim!!! The following pictures are from the race in Italy. We shipped the boat to England in 1984 and Landini picked it up and hauled it to Boretto for the race in 1985. Tim sold the boat in Italy. We thought that we had hit the jackpot for millions of lira, only to find out that it was like Monopoly money. The Italians treated us like kings. We spent time together seeing the countryside of Europe. What a great time we had. ;)

[smittythewelder]

Are those pictures of the boat you're talking about? Maybe I'm going blind, but it looks like any hydro; what was different about it?

[Master Oil Racing Team]

That is one that Tim took to Italy to race. The one Joe is talking about was for another racing division. Joe...Do you have any pictures of the boat that was outmanuevered in a hotel room?

[Mark75H]

Are you guys talking about this boat: Butts Aero Cat (http://www.boatracingfacts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=247)

[Master Oil Racing Team]

I'm not sure. I was long by then and never saw it. This ad looks like something already race proven. My understanding was that there was a prototype being tested against other designs, which proved superior in speed. However, it was not performing well in the turns. Short of Tim coming on to tell us, Joe Rome would be the one to fill us in on whether or not this is the boat.

[jrome]

Are you guys talking about this boat: Butts Aero Cat (http://www.boatracingfacts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=247)


Yes, that is the boat. But that is the final result after Tim made several modifications. But after the rule change about the specifications of the bottom dimensions, the boat never ran as good as it did before they outlawed it.

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

I guess that is what is wrong when you don't look outside of North America to see what everyone else might be doing! I thought a hydro was a hydro and a runabout was a runabout? I can remember when a stock runabout was very different from what Alky drivers used and I sure liked them more and so did eveyone else because they all headed in that direction anyway! :)

I come on this thread having 2 Butts Aerowings myself, one a Super C from around 1980 and another one that was built for 1987 or 1988 that goes like nobody's business down a straight, that is downright freaky but does not corner well and that is probably my fault through setup as I have improved on that, BUT, no one can tell me anything about this mystery Aerowing of mine and now I am hearing about hydros being outlawed for technical reasons outside of speed?? and handling?? somewhere else??? I thought that rules for Alky were governed by boat, engine displacement and fuel or is the UIM as ridgid as the Olympics committees when they are not out cheating to win??

This sounds as strange as the 1987 or 1988 Aerowing and its story sitting in my garage! I am unwashed here. What is this? :confused:

[Mark75H]

Not hydro, not alky ..... STOCK 45ss tunnel hull

Its easy to forget that 45ss Tunnel is a STOCK outboard class in APBA

[Master Oil Racing Team]

The only restrictions Tim ever had to deal with regarding Alky was the restriction involving wings. The PRO commission finally dealt with that and lead to designs that were much safer at the speeds we were doing then.

Sometimes things happen between when boats are constructed and when they finally reach there destination and THEN finally sealed. I was looking at some old records the other day and found some when Tim came down to test and set up a new boat of mine. According to the records, it was handling funny and Tim checked the bottom. It had moved. I have a photo of that that appeared in an article I wrote for Powerboat. The boat was brand new, never been raced and I know that it was perfect when it left Tim's shop. But in South Texas, heat and humidity can really move wood around.

Then, when I picked up a boat in November and spent Thanksgiving with Tim and his Dad at his brother's house in Detroit, I ran into snow on the way home. Several days of snow on an unfinished deck caused some delamination and resulted in depressions on the deck. A funny story resulted, but the point is a little movement in the wood can make a big difference as you know. And I think there can also be internal shifts that may flex when you are all bolted up and at speed. Then remember about the post I had about a prop change that totally changed the handling of the boat.

Take a picture of the bottom of your boat and post it. I think it is radically different from the boat in question. I think Joe would recognize it.

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

OH, Jeeeze, I was never aware that Tim Butts ever built a 45SS stock tunnel boat! I suppose builders build for those that want them built, that is their livelihood.

I am no fan of 45SS stock tunnel boat racing from my experience watching them make themselves into mucho kindling wood, is not safe or exciting racing to me. The accidents wiped out nearly half the entries in one heat on a shortened course in Beloit one summer past was sickening.

I was always of the opinion that OMC 45SSs belong to another level of stock hydro and runabout (even 2 man) should have been a bigger one and a hydro or runabout at that, that would not be confused with the smaller Merc/Mariner 44 cube - D deflector stock classes. To me 45SS was a waste where in hydro or runabout or both would have been exciting racing.

You can tell I am pretty bent towards things hydro and runabout because I was one of their disciples since little and nothing class F and under should be on a tunnel boat! So I am eccentric! Its nice to be different, in our different sport. ;)

[Jeff Lytle]

The 1st time I heard of an Aero Cat 45SS was when I saw this ad in Propeller many years ago:

Butts Aero Cat (http://www.boatracingfacts.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1636&postcount=4)

Up in my neck of the woods, we used to run Grand Prix.........A sorta' run whatcha' brung class that was dominated by the 700's. We used to have DSH step ups, 44's, and all the alky displacements all together.
In the early days of the class, The Father and Son Team of Ron and Steve Allison built 2 hydros and powered them with Merc mod 50 engines. They were fast, but never consistant winners.
We also used to get Mod 50 tunnel step ups as well. They were a bit slower on the straights, but with the power trim and cornering ability, would really make a race of it. Our problem was, we could never run inside them cause' they would slam the door on us in the corners. There were some near misses and that forced us to outlaw the tunnels in our GP races.
It was a tough call. One of our own racers, Glen Coates, built a full kneeler tunnel and put a 500 Konig on it to run with us. No trim, but it ran quite well for him. The rule we put in placed a maximum sponson length on our boats, thus eliminating the tunnels altogether.

Look at Tim's ad John.........He did built Hydro Cats for Alky too. That's probably the design Joe and Wayne are speaking of. I guess the ad was placed before this design got the kybosh as well.

[Master Oil Racing Team]

Jeff, It looks like that was an ad from 1987. I don't remember when Tim quit, but it couldn't have been too much later. Here is one of the first, if not the first Aerowing ad. It appeared in the December 1970 issue of "The Roostertail". Notice that he had A & B available. At that time he had not yet built a C-D-F hydro.

[Master Oil Racing Team]

Accidentally came across this negative--was filed in another category. I originally thought my cousin had taken this picture from a boat, but of several frames, this is the only usable one, so it wasn't him.

This was January 3, 1973--only three months after its first race. Tim was already looking for ways to improve his boats. This was probably the first of many Christmas holidays that Tim spent with us. It became a tradition. After the season ended, he would be working on boats and deliver them during the Christmas holidays. We would test his and our equipment.

Before Tim built this boat he took some rides in our D Marchetti to get a feel for the speed and power. We took delivery in October 72 at the NOA World Championships in Alexandria. I don't remember what he was looking for during this test session, but he was having me run close to the shore so he could observe. I made about six runs. Tim wanted me to cruise about 30-35 mph, then when I got close to him--nail it. You can see on the full frame about when I got on the throttle, then a couple of close ups of the water rolling up underneath the hull.

Wish I still had that hull. It was amazingly successful for the first one. We ran it for a number of years, then we retired it to my Dad's bar and filled the cockpit up with some trophies. That's the boat Doug Hall referred to in an earlier post.

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

Its amazing how stubbornly long people hang on to convention hydros round nose and even wedge nose hydros even when the writing was on the wall with pickelfor boats as early as Tim Butts were. Can anyone pin down when the actual "first" pickelfork hydros appear, somewhere in some stored scrap book I saw one with two very sort pickels as in a couple of inches, back around 1970. The passing comment was it was a prototype for some alky some dreamer was thinking about and that its just a passing fad! :)

[Master Oil Racing Team]

John--I don't know if Tim actually built the first picklefork, but I have never heard of one prior to his. I wrote an article on Tim and his Aerowings that appeared in POWERBOAT MAGAZINE in 1975 and in that article Tim states,"I took the conventional three point hydro and went as far as I could go. Then I realized that something entirely new had to be brought into the alky world to take the speeds. I designed my first Aerowing in 1968, built it in 1969...and in 1970 I raced it at Memphis". It is not clear if that particular boat had pickleforks, because he had to hide some aerodynamic stuff to avoid the ban against wings. I think it did but not positive. The second one did have the pickleforks. At that race he blew everyone away, but he didn't show up as winner because he jumped the gun.

[F-12]

Tim's first Aerowing was a very short version of the final product (using the word final loosely) The pickles were about 4 or 5 inches long as compared to his later boats. I use the term 'final' loosely because with every boat he built, there were improvements. I think the first model of Aerowing was named 'Ruthless'. Go figure where that came from. Anyone remember? I do.
Wayne, have you heard anything from Tim in the past few weeks? I'm hoping he gets things moved and has time to come out and play with us. That is long past due.................

[Master Oil Racing Team]

....pieces of the puzzle start coming together. Joe Rome put me on this photo of Tim in the Hyroplane Quarterly Spring 1971 issue. You're right Charley, and John--this is probably the boat you are thinking of. Don't know though if this is the one from the Memphis race in 1970 or not. This could be the second one. The picture was taken at the Orange Bowl Regatta at Lakeland in 1971.

[F-12]

I was there when that pic was taken. I ran my Marchetti A boat against Tim and was floored with the difference between Tim's Aerowing compared to a standard 3 point. I always told Tim he was fast because he spun his powerheads around. How many people thought that this was a sign from the future of racing. It was the summer after this that I got my D Aerowing. Sorry I waited so long. This is a great picture of Tim.

[Cameraboy]

It's interesting that the first unlimited with a picklefork design also had its roots in Michigan. It was designed for the Schoenith's by Dick Brantsner and Bill Cantrell more for safety reasons than for speed, and raced for the first time in 1968. At the same time, out West, Ron Jones was designing the outrigger Pay n Pak boat that debuted in 1969.

There were other "proto-pickleforks" at the same time (Gale's Roostertail, Harrah's Club) or slightly earlier, but these were the first deep forks. The state-of-the-art at the time were the Karelsen round nose boats (Bardahl, Budweiser). 1971 was the last year a non-picklefork was truly competive in the unlimiteds. Here are some pictures from the Unlimiteds Detroit site:

http://www.unlimitedsdetroit.com/photo_60.cfm

As far as inboards, the round nose design hung on a bit longer, with the Lauterbach hulls reamining competive into the 80s. I'm not sure when Jones first tried pickleforks on a smaller boat - I know he did the cabover first in limiteds (about 62-63) before the ill-fated 1966 Bardahl.

[Master Oil Racing Team]

Thanks Mike. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the U boats had a big influence on Tim's design. Interestingly, the boat known as "Windwalker" was called an outrigger by Tim. Similar in a general way to the "Pay-N-Pak" outrigger.

Hears the latest on the outboards. Joe Rome remembered a picklefork that Clay Pettifer ran somewhere between 1957 to 1959. Joe talked to Don Nichols who confirmed it and they both remembered it flipped at Alexandria. Joe says it had pickleforks a little longer than Tim's first Aerowing, but it didn't have the aerodynamic designs, and that it had some funny quirks down the straightaway. Maybe something like the tail lifting and dumping air. Clayton Elmer is going to try to track down the Weeks in Lake Charles and in turn locate Clay. Also, Don Nichols (a soon to be member of BRF) remembers that Milton Wiggins had a picklefork in the 60's. So Ralph Donald, what do you know about that?

[OLEGATORXX]

Sometime In The Early Fifties, The Man That Got Me Racing, Tommy Hagood, Ran A Picklefork Built By Joe Swift. Of Course, It Wasn't Called A Picklefork, They Called It The Fireside Dog. The Reason It Was Early Fifties, They Were Still Running Kg9's. Seams Like There Was A Picture Someone Posted On Scream And Fly. I Started Work For Hagood's In 1958. I Think Maybe Mk75h Could Find Us A Photo.
Jim Hunt

[Cameraboy]

I read an article by Fred Farley (who lurks here) that the picklefork concept was used on outboards in Italy in the 1950s.

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

In the north here we started to hear about term "outrigger hydros" around here in the early 1970s period. Running a stock and conventional hydro, we were more concerned getting and trapping enough air under our Ogiers, Sidcrafts, Swifts, Jupiters, Ben Hurs, Wetbacks (naaah not some much wetbacks! the name was bad enough!) and one off copies that were very much here so you could fly high with the sponsons off the water just enough and level enough to make the most of what stock A,B,C or D stock racing Merc or in C-Service engine you had on the back. We wondered a lot, how much power it would take an outrigger hydro to stay aired out? What kind of power it took to get it up there never mind stay aired out. Seems the concept boats were the Unlimiteds of the day as pointed out here and the rest seems that started to play catch up with the Alkys next and so on it all changed that by 1975 there were pickelforks of all kinds all over the place.

I can only think that running a home circuit like we did here with 6 to 8 races a season with 6 to 10 entrants per class and then straying south for something special like an event and vacation tied together was really a laid back style here that locked itself in for so long. Visiting Alkys were a pleasure to see and hear but for the students and you familys here that was not in the cards to go outside stock outboard because of cost. We stayed frozen. We were still building conventionals into the late 1970s. We saw there here and there and in articles/magazines but we didn't venture there with local hull building. The first pickelforks to turn up here were Giles DSHs near 1978 and by 1980 there were quite a few but then there were all those others that came out of the background by then too as racers changed boats on in the mid 1970s we seen or heard about but did little or nothing about seeing them in our nice warm long distances big blankets. Those were the days, warm and fuzzy and backward. :)

[Mark75H]

Here in the east they tell about another picklefork built in the 50's and raced for 20 - 25 years up and down the mid Atlantic ... it was built by a guy in New England and was known as the "Lobster boat" Dave Augustine tells about driving it when it was old ... he said by 1970 the only thing holding it together was castor oil and it was the worst handling boat he ever drove

Out west, the DeSilva brothers built at least one picklefork in the 50's and called it a "forklift"

I don't have photos of any of these boats .... I've been watching for all of them for years

[David Weaver]

I remember seeing at Camden when I was kid. Bob Thornton was running something on it, an antique of some kind.

[Dave_E71]

I remember seeing at Camden when I was kid. Bob Thornton was running something on it, an antique of some kind.

I think that boat came from Dean Woster (sp?)

[Jeff Lytle]

A good look at the Butts "S" bottom.

Mal Harden flyin' high:

[Jeff Lytle]

Jerry Kirts flyin' HIGHER!! :D :eek: :eek: :D

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

The only other hydro's I can think of that had that sort of S bottom but somewhat further back were Hal Kelly's Jupiter (BSH) and some Ben Hur by Hall Kelly too that in their day aired out pretty good for old time stock outboard racing in the 1960s and some later 70s. for some. That an S bottom on a big Alky must have been plenty amazing and feeling if not a might hair twitchy at the time. Flying high! Oh Yes! ;)

[Master Oil Racing Team]

Jeff---That pic has made the rounds in a number of racing programs. That is the picture I had Jerry sign for me when I was collecting autographs. That wasn't just a shot when he got a little too aired out. He was hanging it out all the way 'round the course. There's another photo of Dan out there doing pretty much the same thing. As usual, your eye for detail really picked a striking example of the S bottom that sometimes doesn't even stand out when the boat is upside down on the stands in bright sunlight.

And John, there is nothing more exhilirating in my opinion that flying a 700 hydro at top speed in good water. For me, what chased away the butterflys and got the adrenalin going was turning right out of the pits, checking the tattletale for water, looking over the left shoulder to make sure there was no traffic, feeling fresh air under the helmet, then punching that 700cc Konig while pulling a left to begin milling before the start. The feeling of power and acceleration would put my mind in racing mode.

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

It is over 2 years ago that I finished rebuilding a 1966 Quincy Flathead 44 cube "F" class Alky out of the many parts and boxes, that used to be run by the Quincy Drivers; Simison and Schoch but I built it as I envisioned it without the pictures of it that became available later. I put on more modern and compact Merc distributor ignition that didn't interefere with the one Carter Model N carb as well as hanging the latest generation bells with the water injection system with all this parked on a steel tower with Merc 55H flatsided gearcase.

When I finished her I was only going to put her through one 3.5 gallon methanol tank load, purge the methanol and fogg her down with storage lube and put her on display, not knowing that this was one of the most vaunted Flathead F Runabout engines in 1966s, so I found out later. I parked her on Wayne Walgraves old 1970 G-71 Chapparal F hydro I have and had rebuilt here to use specifically for a test bed tryout boat and ran her sitting down on a shallow buscket seat with armoured legs going through the cowl dash on either side of the steering wheel. She started so easy and acellerated on to plane so fast and so loud she attracted lots of local attention and in a nearby town some miles away that it got written up in a local paper as undesirable to more quiet townsfolk at Lac Du Bonnet. We used to club race there too but that was SO's certainly not this. I did not push her except for 2 good straights accellerations to flat out opened up, meanwhile just taking her real easy sorta cruising my fuel column guage on the tank (my lube turns the mix the color bright purple) showed in about 12 minites it was largely gone and when I got in less than 1 quart was left with air starting to get into the two lines to the pumps, so she was shut off. She was sure powerful and what a scream but on top speed wise out a Yamato 500 RC really curled my hair more so, but you missed the sound to it like the Flathead has. There is nothing like a Flathead 6 for its music and the Flathead 4s pretty much take 2nd spot for sound to go with the raw power of the engine. They are not that fast anymore but they sure grab and fire your imagination with their performance. The thing is now is to run them conservatively for some events but not really race them as you don't want to see less and less from a chance engine explosion and scattering. That would break my heart.

[smittythewelder]

Hey, I like that new photo you have beside your name, John (is that what the computer-literate call an "avatar"?).

My first BSH was the S-curved bottom Hal Kelly Jupiter I built. It was so gorgeous and I was so proud of it . . . until I started racing. It was a slug. Like some or maybe all of Kelly's hydros, it had a hook in the bottom that kept the sponsons glued to the water; two of my neighborhood pals built Wetbacks, and they had the same problem. In spite of being slow, my boat wouldn't turn, and I got thrown onto the deck in my first heat of racing, and thrown into the water in the second heat (Idlewood Park, Lake Sammamish; Spring, 1965). The following winter I had Ed Karelsen build me a boat. When I took it out testing, the sponsons rose off the water and the boat just flew, and I thought, "So THAT'S what a real raceboat feels like!!!"

Anyway, what I wanted to add was that Hedlund and Craig (Selvidge)-Craft hydros both had S-curved bottoms, as did some later Karelsens. The idea was to move the center of lift aft toward the center of gravity, slightly, to make the boat a little less pitch-sensitive. Pickleforking serves the same purpose, more effectively.

I wish I'd kept my old Jupiter. Now I know how to fix it, make it work. Well, I did keep my set of plans . . . .

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

The avatar is courtesy of a board administrator who kindly offered me the avatar logo as it was not a priority for me but he thought a "little" different and offered me one of the ones he was getting a kick out of so I respectfully accepted and that is what you are seeing. Its nice.

I can just see Smitty the Welder! At high speed in a hydro driving with one a mig welding gun welding the crankcase with the other hand and holding steering wheel and throttle set very close together! :)


We saw the same thing here when it came to the Jupiter and Ben Hur Hal Kelly hydros and like yourself people went out of the (rolled out) cockpit and over the deck for a bath. Though having built one it was too small for me right off. They were the cause of a few 20H crankcase and block blow ups. It was the two Ben Hurs around here that changed that for not only themselves but the Jupiters and a couple of Swift Atomic A hydros. They put one anti trip extended non-trip plate on the right sponson and one on the right rear non trips raising the anti-broaching capability a lot giving the racer on the outside of you a real good face washing. This helped a lot but here but the Sidcafts, Marchetti sand Swifts early on outperformed the the Jupiters in BSH. The Ben Hurs were all 40H powered in D class, so their placing occurred but wins were nill because the Ogiers, Swifts, Marchettis and Sidcrafts out with 55Hs performed them hands down. We were nearly 4 years late going to pickelforks here because we paid attention to the local scene so well it delayed development and new raceboat types for years. My old Jupiter is still here in good shape though not been in racing for years. It sees only lake running with its owner of many years now, these days.

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

There were several wetback B-C, D and some C Service run Wetbacks here that no one wanted to take out and race them after they were built after a few test runs trying setups. Here they got the reputation with the name very quickly. You menttioned wetback hyros and racers would go silent shaking their heads saying no no no and no way!! I gave away an old sized DSH wetcback last year to a friend of a friend who is parking a Merc 402 short shaft ski/fish engine on her just to run on the river locally some nice day! We have had lots of nice days but with the drowned driftwoods in the thousands of tons fouling the shoreline and boat launches from the summer flooding that is another good luck in your survival trying to even go in there just the once! :)

[Seagull 170]

John my class B Gasoline Anzani that I recently bought & that we have discussed much, came attached to what I think is an S bottomed Ben-Hur.
If anyone has the same I would appreciate some photos just to confirm I have what I think.

Charles Large
England

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

To me a Ben Hur, Hal Kelly Be Hur boat is an ovesized Jupiter in some respects and has so many similar kind of scaled larger similar looking features particular to Hal Kelly. I will see what I can come up with. Google - Hal Kelly Boat Plans - Ben Hur Cabover Hydro and I think you will be faster that way very quickly as they are out there, I have seen them myself. I owned a Ben Hur D hydro for a time but it was not as good running as by Ogier C-D and then Gordon/Ogier that was my last newer DSH I had until 1980 in use when I got my first pickelforks just prior to that in an overlap of differing hydros.

[smittythewelder]

Hal Kelly's Ben Hur was a distinct design, but there was a scaled up Jupiter developed by an old-timer some here will remember named Dub Parker. Kelly drew a set of plans for this larger Jupiter, but I never saw a boat built from them. If the bottom angles were got right, this could have been a very good boat for the time.

Hal Kelly did get a lot of us started in racing. I have often wondered whether Nick Marchetti got his start with a Wetback, because his early A and B Stock hydros are very close to being Wetbacks without the hook in the bottom. If you fix the bottom of a Wetback (and put a sponson fin on it), as I did once, it works as well as a Marchetti. I have also wondered whether Sid-Craft's runabouts of the early '60s owed something to Kelly's late-'50s Foo-Ling and Madcap runabouts, which were his best designs.

If I had an avatar, John, it would have to show me making a bad start.

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

There was a resized Hal Kelly - Jupiter here in D and everyone assumed it was a variant of the Hall Kelly - Ben Hur. It was that Hal Kelly look. Many of the other boats designs and thoughts were exactly yours in date era and time here to in those comparissons. I had a "Wetcback" here that was a D sized, made from marine grade fir plywood, without that bottom hook and went from a center fin to a sponson fin and it handled quite well as you say one probably would. The owner builder was going to make a mahogany version of it as a result but was killed in an auto accident a short time later, so that never happened and no one else went that direction either.

[Master Oil Racing Team]

...Dubinski's. With all this talk of the S bottoms, I was thinking about the Dubinski the last couple of days. I don't know if there was an S, but it seems like there was a rocker bottom that would ensure that the sponsons were off the water. In 1967 we started running C and later D classes. My Dad found a racer in North Carolina that was getting out and we bought his trailer, several Konigs and it came with 3 Dubinski's. I don't know what happened to those hydros. Never ran one. There must be some photos out there of Dubinski hydros.

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

The making of the avatar was a freebe done for me by a board administrator as a kind favor. Smitty! You too can have one. I can't seem to take the time to do something for me that often, so I accepted the offer garciously to the provider. Thanks Jeff!! again :)

[Dr. Thunder]

:confused: What exactly is the diference between a "rocker" and a
S". Can someone draw me a picture of how the bottoms would be different?

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

In very simple terms a rocker is a bottom that is like a bow (as in bow and arrow)with the bow down and its tips up. Causes the front end of a racing runabout to go up and down as in power and grab, loss of bite and repeat. The raceboat rocks bow up and than down, sometimes gently sometimes violently which is also speed and power dependent. Some runabouts rock until the higher end is achieved and the bow no longer rocks, raceboat runs flat.

A Hook is the reverse of the bow where the backend dops down from the normal level curvature designed into the bottom. Hooks nail the front down and create a uneven ventilation on the bottom of the runabout because the bottom at the stern drops down as opposed to a rocker where the planing surface of the stern is upturned.

When a racer prepares his bottom the idea is the elimination in general terms of hooks and rockers to give those last inches a smooth slide to the edge of the bottom that normally be a 90 degree sharp corner from the bottom edge upward.

To me that rocker and its need for elimation was what was wrong with by Banshee VI racing runabout (Banshee racing runabouts here were built by E.J. Ted Coates a local racer from my area). Later the idea of adding fiberglass and mat on the last sections of bottom to take the rocker out at the stern area proved to be too heavy, too difficult with fiberglass separations from wood always being the problem so that last section of bottom was ripped out, frames slightly lined to bring them down within the farmes line up done again but with a real gradual hook built in and sanding ajusted to lay the bow down at the highest speeds to keep her from/eliminating rocking. Largely that was successful but still not as good a raceboat as her predecessor, Banshee V.

I have seen some neat ideas used to change or deal with rockers or hooks that involved very heavy weights and waiting all winter for their eduated guess of weights and the time it would take to gradually pull to get the job done. That is why I choose to rip that section of bottom out and do it over.

I wonder if there are any drawings left around or pictures in some wood boat building magazines somewhere to help you?????

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

The "S" as applied to say a Hal Kelly Jupiter B Stock hydro from way back when 60s is as if you introduced a bottom that goes straigght from the bow and then hooks down somewhere in the last third of the hydros bottom that then continues on to the stern. The air traps that come off the rear of the sponsons serve to enclose the air bubble from the sides right past the bottoms S to keep that bubble from venting out the sides and streaming to the rear transom bottom area to lift the whole hull including hopemfully the sponsons to get the least wetted area possible to air out the bottom to where the prop and gearcase would ride near surfaced. An ideal 3 point hydros stance when the hull is lifted free as aired out getting maximum accelleration and speed as a result of being free from wetted surfaces.

Anyone?? :)

[John Schubert T*A*R*T]

[QUOTE=smittythewelder]Hal Kelly's Ben Hur was a distinct design, but there was a scaled up Jupiter developed by an old-timer some here will remember named Dub Parker. Kelly drew a set of plans for this larger Jupiter, but I never saw a boat built from them. If the bottom angles were got right, this could have been a very good boat for the time.

Hal Kelly did get a lot of us started in racing. I have often wondered whether Nick Marchetti got his start with a Wetback, because his early A and B Stock hydros are very close to being Wetbacks without the hook in the bottom. If you fix the bottom of a Wetback (and put a sponson fin on it), as I did once, it works as well as a Marchetti. I have also wondered whether Sid-Craft's runabouts of the early '60s owed something to Kelly's late-'50s Foo-Ling and Madcap runabouts, which were his best designs.

If I had an avatar, John, it would have to show me making a bad start.

Just the opposite as the first Sid runabout was built in the late 40's. Hal Kelly's first boat was built either in 1953 or 1954 and was copied from a Sid. Many times on our way home from races, especially when Johnny Wehrle ran the 1st Hornet after getting beat at Devil's Lake with the Sid bathtubs in A & B. The nationals in Devils Lake were in August. I guess Sid was designing the boat during the long trip back to NJ with Johnny & in a week he built it. Johnny raced in A & B runabout at Lock Haven & I think he won both. On the way home my dad, brother, the Wehrle's & the Kelly's stopped at a diner for dinner. Johnny's dad, Wiff, said "where is Kelly"? Found him outside measuring the new Hornet. Nevertheless, Hal was a great designer working for Fawcett publications who published his plans and kind of sponsored his racing. They were also the people that sold the "Paint a player by number" kits. Hal advcertised these kits on the side of his trailer. See picture below

[John Schubert T*A*R*T]

[QUOTE=smittythewelder]Hal Kelly's Ben Hur was a distinct design, but there was a scaled up Jupiter developed by an old-timer some here will remember named Dub Parker. Kelly drew a set of plans for this larger Jupiter, but I never saw a boat built from them. If the bottom angles were got right, this could have been a very good boat for the time.

Hal Kelly did get a lot of us started in racing. I have often wondered whether Nick Marchetti got his start with a Wetback, because his early A and B Stock hydros are very close to being Wetbacks without the hook in the bottom. If you fix the bottom of a Wetback (and put a sponson fin on it), as I did once, it works as well as a Marchetti. I have also wondered whether Sid-Craft's runabouts of the early '60s owed something to Kelly's late-'50s Foo-Ling and Madcap runabouts, which were his best designs.

If I had an avatar, John, it would have to show me making a bad start.

Just the opposite as the first Sid runabout was built in the late 40's. Hal Kelly's first boat was built either in 1953 or 1954 and was copied from a Sid. Many times on our way home from races, especially when Johnny Wehrle ran the 1st Hornet after getting beat at Devil's Lake with the Sid bathtubs in A & B. The nationals in Devils Lake were in August. I guess Sid was designing the boat during the long trip back to NJ with Johnny & in a week he built it. Johnny raced in A & B runabout at Lock Haven & I think he won both. On the way home my dad, brother, the Wehrle's & the Kelly's stopped at a diner for dinner. Johnny's dad, Wiff, said "where is Kelly"? Found him outside measuring the new Hornet. Nevertheless, Hal was a great designer working for Fawcett publications who published his plans and kind of sponsored his racing. They were also the people that sold the "Paint a player by number" kits. Hal advcertised these kits on the side of his trailer. See picture below

Picture didn't make it so I'll try again.

[John Schubert T*A*R*T]

Not sure what's happening but if it doesn't post this time go to my scrapbook on Skip Hagerman's site in the 53 - 54 section. Just received message that I had previously posted the picture under my pictures from 1953-1957.

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

"If I had an avatar, John, it would have to show me making a bad start."

So you had a learning curve too, no different than the rest of us, each in our time and our economies of scale, thanking each other for the assistance we got and gave, most of us never saying that somebody ought not be here but, instead, selling fried chicken. The world goes around and comes around. When someone offers me a kind favor, I always thank them. Nice Eh! :p

[Ted March]

In the early 60's I had a DR 800. I had just picked up a Speedmaster and was was wondering what to run the Speedmaster on. Had a '60 15' Crosby which I was running the 800 on and knew that wouldn't work. I had seen and spoken with Hal over the years at Region 3 races and thought he might have some ideas. So I called him, explained the situation and ordered some plans. He sent me unaltered plans for Madcap, a 13' CD runabout. Fine,I thought. So one Saturday a week or so later, I dragged my butt into Reading Boatworks (PA) and ordered the stuff to build it. On the way home I stopped by George DeWald's to chat and have a brew on three. Craig was home form FL (Lake X) at the time and when he heard what i was doing, he went thru the roof. He called Hal and beat him up pretty good about why he would send plans for Madcap designed for a 4 cyulinder motor with a CD Quicksilver to be built for a 200# 6 cylinder with a 15" motor (actually about 20.5" or more properly set up). Hal said he would revise the plans. I called Reading Boatworks and cancelled the order. Hal sent the revisons. I never built the boat. I have the revisions somewhere, but I know I could never locate them after all these years. Just a passing story.

[Master Oil Racing Team]

:confused: What exactly is the diference between a "rocker" and a
S". Can someone draw me a picture of how the bottoms would be different?


....I may have used the wrong terminology. John's explanations were good. I don't recall ever seeing any Jupiter's or Hal Kelly boats at races. The Dubinski's disappeared about the time sliding expansion chambers jumped up the horsepower and speeds. In those days I just paid attention to racing and working on my stuff. Wished I would have checked out other aspects a little closer. Below are some illustrations about what I was talking about. I thought a Dubinski had a rocker like the top drawing, but it may have been a true S like the middle. I just remember the rear portion angle up like a rocker to cause the boat to run with sponsons in the air. I think the cockpit was fairly forward also. What I call the "S" bottom on Tim's boat, like the third drawing, went through the S shape, but finished back flat and straight. Kind of reminds me a little of cupping a prop, though not actually curling over. And Ted, that was a great story. I like hearing personal tales about what went on behind the scenes with people I had only read about that made a mark in boat racing history.

[Joe Silvestri 36-S]

Jerry Kirts flyin' HIGHER!! :D :eek: :eek: :D

Speaking of Kirts, does anyone remember the name of the laydowns Dan Kirts ran for a few years? I believe the boats were built in Indiana. I remember seeing him race this brand of boat at one of our club races back in the mid to late eighties, when we still had some pro guys in the club. I remember the boat floated really high and the outside sponson would tap off the water really hard as he went around the turns and I kept thinking he was going to catch the sponson and go for a swim, but he never did.

[Dan M]

Joe,

I think the boats that Danny had were built by Lowell Schumacher. I think he's still involved and helps out Gary Pugh building boats.

Dan:)

[Joe Silvestri 36-S]

Thanks Dan. Schumacker sounds right.

[BRIAN HENDRICK]

Joe; -both these pix appear else where on this site, but easier to post again rather than search for them. Both are of the same boat, I think, but certainly both are Schumakers, and both owned by Kirts.

[aojesus]

Gentlemen,
I just found this thread and read it in entirety with a huge smile!
The first time I saw a Butts Aero-wing was Carelton Place Ontario, late 70's(maybe Jeff or Bryan can remember who's it was) I believe it ran in FGP.
I stood in awe of this fabulous boat. You can see many of Mr. Butt's innovations in todays hydros. His designs were far ahead of thier time.
Thanks for a GREAT thread! I thoroughly enjoyed it!

RussW

[BRIAN HENDRICK]

Russ; The AeroWings one saw at Carleton Place etc were likely ones built by Dave Rawson, who ran Crescents. We think as many as six were built, two still running, Dave Scott, and Dave Dalton having them. We ran Daltons as
a test bed for a OMC triple in FEH during 2002 and did quite well, the handling being typically impeccable! These pix should bring back memorys!
PS; -did u hear we are going back to Carleton Place ON this year. Almonte is too shallow

[Jeff Lytle]

Hi Guys!! Greetings from Florida!

Just having a quick peek in the Forums before driving home tomorrow.

Perhaps the Butts hydro's you saw at Calelton Place were either owned by Roy Alexander ( #169 "Devestation"--Dark orange hull w/white trim) or Greg Hall ( #153 "Hawkwind"--Dark orange, white, green, and natural wood)

Brian is right though, I know that Dave's boats were run there by many who owned them. Roy's last 700cc boat was a Rawsoncraft, as were boats owned/driven by Vince Gresko in F44H, Henk Engles in F250H, and Gord McCrady Jr. in FGP.

I'm really looking forward to seeing Dave Scott's new project.

[snoopy]

I sure would like to talk again to Tim, he left Michigan when we got the Butts/areowing drag boat running. I know you circle boaters are not interested in drag's back then but this is more about one of the winningest boats from 78-85 and it was on a Butts hydro. It measured out from the tip of the sponson to the after plane 14' 11". The engine was a first year V-6 Evinrude 1976 200hp on a racing V-4 midsection and gearcase. One year later Evinrude people (Tom Ireland) saved me the last of 50 factory new racing CCC engines. Tim I wish to say your a man of your word, you built one of the safest boats one would ever drive at that speed. Your boat won a total of 38 of 44 events entered. It beat Ron Jones hydro's and several others during those years. From VA to CA the aerowing was the boat to beat. I have some pictures if your intersted later I could share with you. I hope you guy's get Tim back to look at what your running, he would make suggestions that could only help you to strive and achieve your goals of safety and speed. Take care.

Pat Golba

[Mark75H]

Pat, we'd be very interested in seeing pictures and hearing more about it :)

Your detail about the CCC was interesting as well; coincidentially I just finished scanning the CCC parts list/owner's manual ;)

[aojesus]

Good Evening,

Jeff & Bryan,
The boat I remember was all wood finish. Little, if any, and a duct tape X for a number. There was a BUTT'S emblem on each side near the transom. VERY VERY FAST. It may have been Roy Alexander.

Jeff,
Bryan and I were re-living the glory days of C Service Runabout last month at Lake Placid Florida. Carelton Place was a hot bed for C service Runabouts for a long time. We were trying to remember the drivers in that era. Stan McDonald, the Wellans, the Hagmans, Les St. Pierre, and that CZ-1 DeSilva of yours. There were more, but Brian and I are getting old and the memory is fading. Will we ever see the CZ-1 make a comeback? That was an awesome class!

RussW

[crankbearing]

Hey Jeff,

I have not had much time too build baots lately but I have some plans done for the 3 boats. I went over all these with Dave R. Attached are the DSH DMH and FEH that I have redesigned. I also have a 25SSH Boat drawn and a D classic hydro boat as well. these are now all in Cad at full size.

I still Ian Thorpe's Rasoncraft SCCH and I found and now own Gresco F44 boat which will require full restoration as a butcher was at it.

Regards,

[BRIAN HENDRICK]

A 'lytle' off topic here, [do we have a CSrR thread?] but here is a pic of
the infamous CZ-1 in action, with 'we all no whom' at the helm. The Lytle's, Sr.& Jr., made a cameo apearance in this rig a few years back at a AOMC meet in ON. It is part of a well cared for collection owned by retired Canadian racer Ken Kirk. CZ-1 still holds some CDN records.

[Jeff Lytle]

Good Evening,

Jeff & Bryan,
The boat I remember was all wood finish. Little, if any, and a duct tape X for a number. There was a BUTT'S emblem on each side near the transom. VERY VERY FAST. It may have been Roy Alexander.


Now I remember!! (I think?)

As I recall, one of the last races we had there was attended by Raymond Ratitius (SP?) who was Vic Pede's Brother in law. Guess he caught the racing bug while attending races with his sister Sylvia and Vic. Vic used to race 250ccH untill his death at a race in Acworth Georgia.
Raymond purchaced and engine from Bill Wanamaker ( Canadian Doug Thompson raced his stuff ) and a new Butts lay down. He was still rigging it in the pits at Carelton place it was so new. Was this the boat you remember?
I wish I knew where it was.........It had less than 10 heats on it.

[Jeff Lytle]

I found and now own Gresco F44 boat which will require full restoration as a butcher was at it.

The last time I saw that boat, it was being driven by Bob Abbott with a 44 on it. He got it from Tom Bird.
It was painted yellow with sposors names on the sides.

Where in the heck did you find it?

Also----I am really impressed with the drawings, and shocked at how similar they look to John Yales designs of 25 years ago!

[Jeff Lytle]

Will we ever see the CZ-1 make a comeback?

RussW

Hey Russ............The last time I took her for a spin was in Clayton NY a number of years ago. Ken called me up out of the blue and asked me if I wanted to take her for a spin!
Honestly, I really doubt I 'll be able to ever drive again, let alone start one of those old buggers. I've got some medical issues that'll probably prevent it. Lot's of good memories though. In that pic Brian posted to my inside is Mike Willan, the fastest and best driver to come from the Willan family in my opinion.
And the pic was taken at Carelton Place.

[Jeff Lytle]

Hey Pat!!

I remember seeing a video of what I think was your boat. I remember it was a Butts, with a big OMC monster on it.

I saw it at a boat show years ago. I remember the boat launching through the 1/4 and hanging high as a Butts always did. The engine had a small blubber, so the front dropped down, but lifted up high and hung there when the engine cleared out. IMPRESSIVE!

I too would love to see your pics!

[aojesus]

Hey Jeff,
In my previous post I mis-typed a sentence. It should have said...
All wood, no paint, duct tape X. I want to remember it as a lay-down boat but can't be certain. It was beautiful though.
I remember talking to you at the Clayton show a few years back and the CZ-1 was there. I was able to buy back my old '69 Austin BSR at that show.
Many great boats and drivers ran at Carelton Place! My birthday always fell on the Carelton Place weekend so Mom always brought a big hydro shaped cake and we passed it around the pits. Many great memories of watching the Alkies at Carelton Place!

RussW

[Jeff Lytle]

Somewhere, I have a couple of pics of the boat and Raymond rigging it. I will try to find to post.

I mentioned a video I have to Dave Dalton before in this thread. It shows a heat of FGP with Dave Dalton in his F500 RawsonDalt (hee hee!), Vince Gresko in a F44H Rawsoncraft, Dave Rawson in a F500H Rawsoncraft, and Roy Alexander in his F700H Butts.
Roy was on the inside and battled Dave for all three laps. The lead swapped several times with Dave coming out as the eventual winner. I asked Roy several years later about that race and asked if was making a show of it. The fact was, Roy had an older 700cc with the 40mm carbs and Dave had a newer 500 with 48mm carbs. Although the 700's were well known for their "Kick in the arse" acceleration, Dave's newer updated Konig had what it took to win the drag race to the finish.

My last hydro ride was in a 5 port 500cc Pugh rig. The engine was top notch, and very competitive. Much to my surprise, it had everything my 700 did, including heaps of punch out of the corners. It would run well over 100 mph in competition on a USTS course.......I was very impressed! (and shook for an hour!)

[crankbearing]

Hey Jeff,

I have to see that video. PLEAAAAASE!. AS for the designs. I actually have all of Dave R's drawings here and that is what these were taken and drawn from a lot of changes in where the "s" relief is and how much. As well as the deck lines. John's boat almost had a turnaway sponson bottom if you know what I mean. it almost look like half a loop off a roller coaster ride.

I found the gresco boat in TO, hanging in a garage. Actually Jesse Loukes found it and I traded him a boat that did not need any work for it. I though I have some pics but I must have lost them in my computer crash. Any how I hope to pick it up at the torc luncheon next week. I verified it with Dave and it is Vince's boat.

David's 500 was certainly fast and it was nothing like anyone else's on the water after Doug Doran got hold off it. Remember that the engine was a motorcycle block not the outboard block. That made it different from the get go.

I do not know if I told this story but when the went to the worlds in Havasu, Mr Konig was there and turned up his nose and walked away from Dave's pits because the motor did not look like anything that konig was selling at the time. Then Dave went out and did a couple test runs and you could not keep Mr. Konig out of the Rawson pits. That was the year that they blew up 4 or 5 motors in a row leaving the Konig pits. All from a little ole Gallon of Nitro they borrowed from the Rawson pits but Mr. Konig used the whole gallon across the 4 or 5 outfits not the capful you are supposed to add.

Regards,

[Master Oil Racing Team]

Looking through my 1974 binder I found this photo of a pre Aerowing Butts hydro. The first Aerowing was built in 1969. Tim only built two hydroplanes with the sharp bow. The first hydro he built was similar looking to a bull nose DeSilva or a Dubinski. Karl Williams bought that first hydro. This boat is either the second or third hydroplane that Tim Butts built, and would be from 1967 or 1968. Joe Barto bought those first two along with the Quincy Loopers that Tim ran back then.

[jrome]

I think between my self and wayne we are going to get Tim to come to Depue to tell us about the first aerowing.

[David Weaver]

Wayne,

In the last photo of Tim's Boat, it appears that P-102 is in the background. That would have been Jane Smith from Ridley, PA.

Depue looks just the same today as in that photo.

David Weaver

[John Schubert T*A*R*T]

I think between my self and wayne we are going to get Tim to come to Depue to tell us about the first aerowing.

Joe, and also Wayne. There seems to be a lot of talk about who is coming & who will taked to to come and several talking about bringing equipment. It we are to have a reception, I need a head count, but in order to make a committment to the American Legion so I can fix a price and communicate it to every potential reunion person, plus current racers, I need the lists from all of you to be contacted. I've asked Ronnie Hill at least 6 times, I've asked you Joe & Wayne at least twice before. I've asked Bill Hosler/Ralph Donald, I've asked others. The ONLY person who has sent something and has put the 2004 USTS roster in the mail to me is Cookie Hooghkirk. Unless we get a head count, there can't be a reception unless someone(s) want to sponsor it. Again, without the head count & follow up communications, we can't provide a hat or shirt with the reunion date on it & more importantly, without names we have no one to communicate to for the silent auction. After the 1st of the year I'll attempt to contact all those that committed to helping me at Depue this year. I must have help from all of you guys as I don't have a clue as to everyone that might be willing to participate from all over the US.

Sorry to be so candid, but at the moment it's frustrating to me.

[wboxell]

i'm new to the site (10 days or so) and as somebody called it, i've fallen into the wayback machine and i can't get out. i crewed for tim off and on from the mid 70's - the mid 80's. i roped that 700cc monster over at dayton in 77. the greatest pro race i've ever seen.

tim built two boats for me. the first was before the 75 season for e-mod. the second was before the 77 season. tim sold me the 250cc/350cc boat he had in process for himself. tim had a passing thought or two about running OD at dayton. during a winter meeting about the race tim said he might run that race for the reasons wayne has given. tom kirts said NO A-hydro driver is going to win that race. that lit a very large fire in tim. tim said i have the boat for you. threads on those later.

i know tim is going to be at depue and can fix any mistakes in my story's.

the genesis of windwalker happened at a race or straitaway in the early 80's. we were bs ing and some guy is looking at tim's boat. really looking. we were waiting for the tape measure or large sheets of tracing paper to come out. we (tim) did a ha how's it going. turns out he was a RC hull builder. tim and the guy (tim to fill in name) talked and i listened. i do not think tim had seen those boats run. i had shortly before that. at that time they were 4-4.5 ft boats running 70-80mph. do the math, maybe 250 scale mph.

the old man illness kicks in and i don't remember the time from the first meeting (talk,bs session) till windwalker. i remember talking to tim and he would say he had talked to the rc guy about this and that. then one day i'm talking to tim and he says i"m building the mechanical boat.

the name of the boat should have been the none wind walker. wayne and others have talked about the aerowing design. the stall of the leading edge, the s bottom, and so forth. this allowed the aerowing to fly high yet give the driver a chance to catch it when a gust of wind comes along. this boat had very little aero lift in it.

tim and i talked, he was going to fla and try to set a straitaway record. it was at (help joe) some canel near or out the south end of lake okochobee(sp). i told tim i would love to but i'm a little short on money. a little later he called and said if i buy some gas will ya come. i said h?ll yes. thanks tim! what ended up happening was my wife and two kids meet tim and joe in orlando. tim bought my gas but i paid for a couple nights in orlando and three two day passes to disney world while tim, joe, and i went on to my disney world (anything boat racing).what i remember about the drive was every third song was on the road again by willie. thank joe.

we pulled into the race course(canel) and it looked good. it was strait, shelterd from the wind, calm, ect. a perfect place for speed. we got out of the car, streached our legs, and tim said what the fu?k is that. maybe i said what the f?ck is that. we all looked very closely. there was a living, swimming, breathing log. it was a manatee. i looked at tim just in time to see the color drain out of his face(mine also). the folks there said don't fret we have people chase them off when the boats are running. tim and i looked at each other. no word was said but we are both thinging it just takes one of those to make for a very bad day.

as wayne says more later

[wboxell]

the fla story continues

tim and i had talked several times leading up to the trip. the 700cc record was certainly the first target. it was a little north of 110mph (wayne may still have held it) however when bs ing we thought that the overall outboard record which at that time was around 135mph was approachable.

that old man illness runs full tilt at this point. we got little practice. a couple runs? not much. the boat was (per tim) not comfortable (banging across the water) and the motor wasn't running right. with regard to the boat, the mechanical boat needed a little more lift or more speed? . if you look at wayne's pics the only lift really was the little wings mounted behind the front sponsens. as tim said the RC boat doesn't have a driver. easy to put the throttle down an see what happens. joe rome had his new camcorder. we looked at the tape (post it or a link it joe). there was spray coming off the fin and intermittenly going right into the carbs. i think we delt with that issue.

with all that said we still felt that the 700cc record was in reach. the outboard record was not.

the task of breaking the 700cc record was about to get MUCH more difficult. BIG George took his 700cc out a few boats before us and pushed the record a little north of 120mph. wow! tim said ohhhh george. that really put the record into that hold the throttle down and see what happens range. i think we ran somewhere between the old and new record.

when tim came off the course we bench raced for a while. congratulated big george. what a run. we bench raced on and tim said he wasn't sure he wanted to risk his life to break the outboard record for nothing ($). during this project (windwalker) he had talked to some factory (merc or omc) guy and ask him what it would be worth to them to set the record. they would help with stuff, maybe, but as far as getting paid? the response was it would be the biggest feather tim ever had in his cap. tim responded i've got all the feathers i need. i said i'll drive it. really tim i'll drive it!!! tim said get in there. i layed in the windwalker a tim and i talked about little cockpit changes. the end result was he would think about it.

the trip back up to orlando was fun. proving again a not so good time (result) racing is better then being any where else.

i talked to tim a week or so later. can i? can i? can i!!! drive windwalker??? tim said bill, i know your wife, your kids, your dad and mom. if something happened, i would not be able to handle it. my response was makes sense to me. he said if i decide to do this i'll get a driver like ????? or ?????. i'll never tell. they weren't guys he didn't like he just didn't know them personally. wayne thats why you didn't drive windwalker.

[Master Oil Racing Team]

I was already out of it by then anyway Bill. It would have been fun to test it just to see what it would do, but we were never a kilo team. Our attempts were all with the same props and setups we raced with. Our records would reflect the speeds we would reach on a good wide course if we were out front. Of course we had good equipment or we couldn't have established any records, but had people like Gerry Walin set out in earnest to up the C,D or F records back in the 70's they would have been way out of reach. We knew though that on any given good day that we were running within reach of the records as they existed at that time.

I always felt that with a straightaway boat, a trick lower unit, separate water pick up, a special purpose prop with the pitch and diameter we wanted and maybe some water injection for a little boost getting up, that the D or F could approach 130. But that would take months of testing in different conditions before we could feel comfortable making that long two way trip.:eek: Competition racing was what we were in the game for and at any time I always had a feel for what was over the edge when at full speed because I had a lot of time in the cockpit doing that.

I have great admiration for guys like Gerry Walin, Hu Entrop, Jim and Sean McKean, Bob Wartinger, Dan Kirts, Big George Andrews, John Sherlock and others that have taken hydros to those kind of limits.

If Tim had a capsule on that little dude and I had some hours behind it with a full blown safety crew and ambulance standing by while we tested the limits of windwalker, I might have wanted to give 130 a try. I am anxious to find out from Sean and Dan how their record runs felt. I bet they can still feel it today.

[wboxell]

wayne, the trick straitaway stuff you talked about, you know much better then i, however the capsule is the only way to fly. i remember talking to tim in a motel room some where (77-79) about the layed back boat. i'm an indy car addict. i was stuck on the idea of a boat that looked like an indy car. strapped in and if st?t happened, off you go skipping done the race course. a friend of mine was sitting, listening and tim and i were going a 100mph talking about the layed back boat. later he(james) said you guys are really into this. james, heres your sign.

i also what to hear what north of 130 feels like.

i still wonder what windwalker (or it's brother/sister) could have done. the boat wasn't really built as a straitaway boat only. it was an edgy first try at a direction(rc mechanical boat). much like tim's first aerowing design, it needed devolopment.

where is wimdwalker?????

hopefully we'll find out in depue.

[wboxell]

in the next few years after the fla trip with windwalker (84 or 85) i remember talking to tim about a couple of projects

the first was an outboard drag boat. i saw that boat mentioned in this tread but no pics? can someone post some?

the second (old man disease (OMD) really a problem now) was a opc/tunnel type boat that tim built and drove? think he told me he blew it over on the back stretch at dayton?? if this isn't a total case of OMD can someone post pics of that boat????

[Ron Saxvik]

[the genesis of windwalker happened at a race or straitaway in the early 80's. we were bs ing and some guy is looking at tim's boat. really looking. we were waiting for the tape measure or large sheets of tracing paper to come out. we (tim) did a ha how's it going. turns out he was a RC hull builder. tim and the guy (tim to fill in name) talked and i listened. i do not think tim had seen those boats run. i had shortly before that. at that time they were 4-4.5 ft boats running 70-80mph. do the math, maybe 250 scale mph.

I got into r/c boats a few years ago and was talking to Tom Pryzenka (sp?),
the owner of Octura Propellers. I told him that I had been into kneel down
boats and he pretty much relayed the same story to me but had never
heard from Tim as to whether or not the boat was built or tried out. I
had a few shots from the pits at Dayton so sent them to him to show
that it had indeed been built....never saw the boat run after that...thinking
that the boat was built for a 500 but Tim had blown his up and was
trying it out with a 350 at Dayton.

[wboxell]

talked to tim at depue about this boat. tim said " Bill i got that boat running 90 mph with that FISHING motor on it". "it's the only time i had all the money i wanted to build a boat". that was the good news. then " but i couldn't get it to turn". i had remembered something about and ask, didn't you blow it over? "no i barrel rolled it. twice! " guess you couldn't get it to turn:eek:

i know earlier in this thread joe talked about rule changes on the fly at dayton regarding this boat but tim didn't bring that up.

it was great to see tim and meet ryan:D

[Master Oil Racing Team]

Tim brought these two pics of the Aero Cat to DePue. I don't know if there are any others, but no pics of the bottom.

[David Everhart]

I met Tim at Depue this year. I have Malcom Harden's E18 A Alky boat. It is still beautiful. It was on the top of my trailer and Tim had been searching all over the pits on the ground for it. I had brought it to put my 44 mod merc on it and test it. But as I run Antique Cs I didn't have the time so I never unloaded it. We had quite a talk and I found a lot out about the boat. It had everything done to it to make it light. I have some pics and will try to attach one. It now sports my number instead of Malcom's E18 but other than that I have made no color changes or painted over anything. Mr. Nydahl introduced Tim to me.
David Everhart S52

[Master Oil Racing Team]

That is a great boat. Malcolm was a fine competitor. I actually first met Malcolm and Tom at DePue in 1970 or 71, and they were pitted either next to Tim and us or only a couple of trailers away. I was hoping Malcolm might show up.

[Composite Specialties]

David, I actually purchased that boat from Mal in the 80's when he started building his own boats. I ran a Yamato 250cc on it, then started building my own 250cc boats. later, I sold it back to mal and he restored the boat. When did you get it from Mal?

[dave dalton]

My Rawson/dalton hydro &Glenn Coates" VC 73319 will be back togeather at
Rideau Ferry the weakend after next. Sorry it won"t be running this year.
Needsome parts....(flywheel &gaurd & check valve ) Next year? Also have 12 FT. runabout & 350 / mid 60"s Koing....should be in the water ...running? only need checkvalve ....ANY HELP!!!!!!...DD

[Jeff Lytle]

Hi Dave.............You can buy check valves at any industrial HVAC supply store. The Konig valves have the adjustable blow offs that need to be set at a specific pressure to work. I have a Konig check valve that dosn't seal, but the blow off works. use it before the HVAC valve inline and it'll work fine.

You are welcome to use it if you wish. (Now all I'll have to do is find it!)

[Mark75H]

As an HVAC tech, I will tell you that not all HVAC places will have the check valves or even know what you are asking for. You have to find a place that has parts for pneumatic controls; which are becoming less common all the time.

Ask for "a check valve for pneumatic controls" They will either point you to a little cabinet of widgets & tiny brass fittings or tell you they don't have any pneumatic stuff.

[David Everhart]

Marc
I got the boat from Bob Blackley. He got it from Malcom about 6 or 7 years ago so that he could have a nice Butz for his grandson to run PR on it, but it never happened. It was stored inside a trailer in Bobby's yard and I aquirred it along with other "stuff" just before Bob passed away last fall. I want to run a Mod 44 on it but haven't done it yet alto I have ran a Cmod Merc on it. With my weight and only a C it isn't quite enough motor to hang it up there just yet. It sure is a beautiful old boat altho I don't have the cowl and the rumble seat had been removed. I used tiger stripe mahogany marine plywood and reinforced the cockpit sides so that I didn't blow them out as without the rumble seat the sides were very fragile.
David Everhart S52.

PS An Antique PR isn't enough to get it up either, The bottom isn't quite wide enough

[Master Oil Racing Team]

.........Tim gave me these at the reunion to post. It occurred during kilos on the Brazos River near Waco, Texas in 1980. Tim had made a previous run with his Ron Anderson Konig and he felt the motor was starving for fuel. Tim had been turning around 10,000. Those 700 cc Konigs could really suck the fuel down and Tim figured the pop off on the Konig relief valve was blowing off to much to keep enough fuel fed to his 4 cylinder Konig. He unscrewed the brass tube, removed the spring, stretched it some, then fit it back in the checkvalve.

As Tim started to enter the traps he looked down and saw he was turning 10,400. As he was looking at the tach, he started over. Too late to bring it down. It happened just across from where the launching ramp was where you entered the river. The river that day was a little flighty with certain places that a boat would get squirrely. This is the incident where Tim's parachute didn't deploy properly and he rolled in the water with parts of the cord and chute wrapping tightly around his neck. It had to be cut off.

[jrome]

My Daughter Was In Waco She Was 3 1/2 At The Time. When Tim


Fliped The Sponson Was Broken Off . My Daughter Christy Said Look


Daddy Tim Busted His S. ----the Number On The Boat Was US 1----------did We Laugh About That After We Found Out Tim Was Ok. Children Do Say The Funniest Things.

[wboxell]

was this the boat doing the flying or it's older brother???

wayne, what's your guess on speed at 10400 rpm?

[wboxell]

is this the boat that started this thread???

pic had 82 written on the back of it. looks like spray problem is fixed now.

don't remember where this was.

[Master Oil Racing Team]

The first time Tim came down to test the boat at our house I didn't take pictures. His motor wouldn't run then because it was catching water. I took pictures the second time, but he may still have had some water problems then after making corrections. I will have some more info on this coming up later on Amazing Story Bill.

In the last couple of weeks I have been trying to organize all the correspondence so I can find stuff easier and then refile it. You can't imagine how much time I lose trying to find something I remember seeing, but don't know where it is. Choosing which file is sometimes the tough part. Such as this letter from Tim. Do I put it in Tim's file or Master Oil Racing? Anyway I just came across it and thought I'd post it here since it preceeds Tim's jump into boat building for others than only himself. The beginning of Butts Aerowings as a commercial venture. Incidentally...I found a letter from Todd Brinkman from 1974 that I never opened. I was hoping for some interesting info, but it was just thanking me for the pics I sent and wanting to buy some from Alex of him and Todd Jr.

ADD: Alex as he was referring to was the NOA World in the fall of 1971.

[Mark75H]

In the last couple of weeks I have been trying to organize all the correspondence so I can find stuff easier and then refile it. You can't imagine how much time I lose trying to find something I remember seeing, but don't know where it is. Choosing which file is sometimes the tough part. Such as this letter from Tim. Do I put it in Tim's file or Master Oil Racing?

It doesn't matter where you file it, put it in one and put a copy or note referring to it in the other :)

[Master Oil Racing Team]

Yeah, I know Sam, it's just taking the time to do it. Just like typing in the info on the photos I scan. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. I used to be good about cross filing, but that's many years ago.

[cyberpunk]

hi im new to this site i just purchased an 11ft 9in butts aerowing i had never heard of this hull before i bought it but it look to be a good design. what would be some of the best motors for it? it only has a 9 in transom now . i do have a102 yamato n an old 4cyl 50 merc but unsure about the weigt of that one would it be safe with a 250 cc pro motor or 350 cc yamato rb-2 cuz i see jeff akers has one of those any help here apprieciated

[Mark75H]

While the Aerowings were excellent in their day as race boats, they don't offer much as a toy.

With a built up transom it is completely possible to float a 102 Yamato or D Merc (I raced one about that size years ago with a 6). The older alky motors were pretty finicky and often troublesome compared to newer alkies.

[wboxell]

hi im new to this site i just purchased an 11ft 9in butts aerowing i had never heard of this hull before i bought it but it look to be a good design. what would be some of the best motors for it? it only has a 9 in transom now . i do have a102 yamato n an old 4cyl 50 merc but unsure about the weigt of that one would it be safe with a 250 cc pro motor or 350 cc yamato rb-2 cuz i see jeff akers has one of those any help here apprieciated


Post a picture of your new toy :D

[Jeff Lytle]

I have so many movies of Tim. I filmed all most all of Tims testing so he could see what the boats were doing, but they are all in beta. I have alot of tapes but nothing to play them on any more.

Hey Joe!!

I just had a look on EBay.........did a search for Beta, and BetaMax.

What are you waiting for?? :D

[David Weaver]

hi im new to this site i just purchased an 11ft 9in butts aerowing i had never heard of this hull before i bought it but it look to be a good design. what would be some of the best motors for it? it only has a 9 in transom now . i do have a102 yamato n an old 4cyl 50 merc but unsure about the weigt of that one would it be safe with a 250 cc pro motor or 350 cc yamato rb-2 cuz i see jeff akers has one of those any help here apprieciated


Your boat was probably a 250cc Butts. It likely would have been powered by a 2-cylinder Konig (FA) engine. In competition, it would have ran in the low to mid 80's. This boat is not suitable for a contemporary 250 or 350 (including the RB350 that is for sale). If you engine such projects, I suggest restoring the boat and finding a a FA. There were hundreds of FA's in the US at one time. I am sure that you could locate one and get back into running order.

[cyberpunk]

Post a picture of your new toy :D

ill give it a try crappy cell phone pict

[Mark75H]

Not bad for cell phone pics

[Jeff Lytle]

It went through a few auctions before with no bidders........

A classic hydroplane though!

[cyberpunk]

The race in Huntington IN, 6-4 and 6-5 Mod race with a few stock classes invited, there was a Butts that won CMH on Saturday with a Yamato on it. He flat smoked them, turns out he was 20 pounds underweight to. Oh well, boat looked cool, and performed well, even to todays standards.

Steve Bullhise (spelling) is the owner driver from Holland MI. In addition the Pro Antique boats there were awesome to look at. Saw Bill Seebolds old Byers Craft there, Duke Johnson had it. Spoke to Duke, nice family that is. Nice restored Byers craft, I think it was Bill's A or B boat. Marshal Grant was the boat owner if memory serves me right. I took a nasty spill there and it rung my bell, so maybe Duke can correct me if I am mistaken on the Byers History.

I live not far from Dick, my dad sees him now and again. I also shoot Trap with his helper Phil each week. Phil pounded many a brass nail in his day.

Dave
this is steves boat you refered to im the new owner it got a new bob goller mod 102 and shortend tower now im putin all together ill post some new picts soon :)

[cyberpunk]

a new paint job n a little more motor work

[David Mason]

Looks good Cyberpunk. Make sure you check the weight for the min in 500CCMH. You should do just fine in this rig, just remember, it does have limits compared to todays designed boats.

[ckwilkins2]

Looks great in black, Looks like it came out of the Bat man films ;-)

[David Weaver]

Somebody with more engine knowledge than I possess could help here. Would this engine run better with a more symmetrical pipe shape? This shape seems odd to my eye. Perhaps a simple adjustment could improve the performance.

You might also consider moving the fuel tank within the boat to lower the center of gravity on the bach end.

[cyberpunk]

Looks good Cyberpunk. Make sure you check the weight for the min in 500CCMH. You should do just fine in this rig, just remember, it does have limits compared to todays designed boats.

i ran it for about 20 mins on easter the only limits im seein is its a little ruff in the corners but 2 runs and 2 trim setting motors not broke in yet either and i lost my darn expansion chamber:mad: i got some video of it too it crappy but i try to post it:cool:

[cyberpunk]

the resolution is crappy but i put up 6 seperate clips on you tube just type in cyberpunkicon to find em if ya like:)

[Danny Pigott]

Wayne remember these.

[Master Oil Racing Team]

I sure do Danny. That would be correspondence to you regarding the 1977 UIM OD World Championships coming up at Dayton, Ohio is my best guess. But as an Officer, Tim may have sent you some other letter.

[RedlinePlus]

Nice Forum and great pictures. My aerowing is still going strong as a topend toy. Pinner built me two long course props for the 55H and hope to get a little more speed this spring on Lake Martin. These are great boats.

[Dew1us]

Tim brought these two pics of the Aero Cat to DePue. I don't know if there are any others, but no pics of the bottom.

I have a whole set of pictures of this boat being used as a ramp at Dayton Ohio that I will be posting tonight. Just wanted to bring it to the top.

[Dew1us]

As promised here are the Photos of the Butts 45SST being used as a ramp by a Flyer.

The Photos were used for a picture slide show for dad's 40th.

[Jeff Lytle]

I sure would like to talk again to Tim, he left Michigan when we got the Butts/areowing drag boat running. I know you circle boaters are not interested in drag's back then but this is more about one of the winningest boats from 78-85 and it was on a Butts hydro. It measured out from the tip of the sponson to the after plane 14' 11". The engine was a first year V-6 Evinrude 1976 200hp on a racing V-4 midsection and gearcase. One year later Evinrude people (Tom Ireland) saved me the last of 50 factory new racing CCC engines. Tim I wish to say your a man of your word, you built one of the safest boats one would ever drive at that speed. Your boat won a total of 38 of 44 events entered. It beat Ron Jones hydro's and several others during those years. From VA to CA the aerowing was the boat to beat. I have some pictures if your intersted later I could share with you. I hope you guy's get Tim back to look at what your running, he would make suggestions that could only help you to strive and achieve your goals of safety and speed. Take care.

Pat Golba

I emailed Pat a week or so ago about his drag racing, and especially his Butts hydro. After digging for a few days, here's what he came up with. I saw a video at a boat show of a Butts drag hydro with a CCC on it. I posted my comments on it once before--It was hangin' high in typical Butts fasion when the engine blubbered for a sec, when this happened, the front of the boat lost it's altitude. When the engine cleaned out, the front lifted right back up again........Love to see that video again!

More pics of Pat's racing days to come.........

[wboxell]

Here's a couple pix of an Aerowing that Tim built for a Johnruid for the 75 season.

[Jeff Lytle]

Heres another pic of this cool boat!

[Master Oil Racing Team]

Thanks Pat and Jeff for the pictures and info on the drag boat. I remember Tim telling me about the drag boat successes, and I thought I took notes of what he said, but I couldn't find them. Seems like there was another guy from central Texas that had great success with a Butts drag racing hydro in Texas and Louisiana. I did find this note however, that I am not sure I ever passed on. The first boat he built was bought by Karl Williams and the last he heard, was still in Canada. I believe Tim built it for himself and then later sold it to Karl. It had a cloth deck and Tim described it has looking like a Dubinski, or a bull nose DeSilva hydro. He built two like this in 1967 and 1968. The first Aerowing was built in 1969. Joe Barto bought the first two picklefor Aerowings and the Quincy loopers that Tim ran on them.

Looking forward to more drag hydro info.

[Jeff Lytle]

Jeff, I have some more around the house somewhere, found these which should give some insight of the Unlimited Outboard Class between 1978-84 when I raced. The seventy's was N.D.B.A and eighty's was newly formed A.D.B.A. sanction. Some of the other boats that were very competitive that I found are also shown. Speeds hovered around 118-130mph and ET's around the 11's to low 10's. There was another Butt's Aerowing that raced just before I got out is also shown, to my knowledge this was the only other Aerowing that he built for drag racing. I hope this was what you wanted. Take care.

Pat Golba

I have to admire his guts..........an Evinrude CCC was the Mod U motor of the day, and was wicked fast!

[Danny Pigott]

This is what i think is a little known Butt's Aerowing fact. In the late 70's I talked to Tim a lot,He loved to talk about racing on the phone. One of the things he told me was that he built 350.Yamato Hydros 1 inch shorter than a 350 Konig boat. He said this was to help the Yamato because it did not have the torque a Konig had. I think this was about the time he built the boat's for the team from from Japan to run at the Pro Nat's at Hinton.

[Jeff Lytle]

Thanks to Pat Golba for sharing his pics :)

[marchettih2o]

Here is a recently restored 13 footer I was breaking the rings in on a 44. Running slow, so don't get too excited about the lack of headgear...Tim designed some interesting sponson running surfaces. You can make out the steps on the right hand sponson...I will try to post a shot of the whole bottom. Every thing was asymetrical. I have a 650xs powerhead on a Quincy/SSM foot, I plan to try out on it in the next couple of weeks..gg

[Master Oil Racing Team]

The first boat I know of that Tim started doing was weird stuff to the sponsons was my fairly new 350 Butts in 1978 shortly before the UIM OB World Championships. He added two additional steps to each sponson knowing that some of the propriders shipped over from Europe plus the enlarged field was going to make for some choppy racing. Dieter had brought me over a brand new Konig he had tweaked and it was very powerful, but those sponson changes had made the hydro wild in the turns. It was all I could do to keep it right side up in the turns, and I wasn't able to make a typical fast and stable corner like Butts' were well known for. I loaned the boat to Guiseppe Landini and he put on a 3 bladed Rolla cleaver, and I have never experienced such a dramatic change in my life in the way the boat handled. He came close to winning all the marbles, but because he didn't understand English, he got tossed out one heat he won for a local rule infraction. Tim may have played with the sponson surfaces on some other boats before that, but I don't believe he did any of that prior to 1978. Mine was the first I knew of. After that he continued to experiment more with the sponson changes and we started buying three bladed cleavers to run on some of the boats. His experimental sponsons for our boat Tex was designed for rougher European courses, and while it worked great testing in Texas during a 30 mph blue norther, it did not do good on river courses with currents and rollers. It would rebound hard and throw you into the air a couple of feet above the boat.....high enough for the kill switch attached to a Gentex to pull the plug.:eek: By the time Tim started building the laydowns, he was getting quite good at sponson modifications, and what would work good. Our final Butt's , Vibora de Cascabel, was a laydown with some stepped surface, but they were symmetrical. I don't know when he started with the asymetrical stuff, but he was always thinking of new things to try, and his boats evolved. His "wings" at the transom went from thick to thin between 1976 and 1977, then disappeared altogether. His afterplanes evolved. It was very fun working with Tim while he tried to keep up with the demand for stability as horsepower and speeds increased. Looking forward to your pics of the underside. Do you know what year your boat was made? Tim says Bruce Mariouneaux has a warehouse full of his boats....some never in the water. It would be cool to see what changes occurred from the oldest to the newest.

[marchettih2o]

Hey,,,I gotta run, but I found these old files of the bottom. I will try to get some recent photos showing a close up of each sponson. But you can see the difference between the two...wider on the right side...I was in the process of refinishing the boat...gg

[Danny Pigott]

Wayne, could this be what was called the outrigger Hydro, seems like i heard about it in 78 but don't remember seeing one or hearing much about them.. Some one told me that they ran good in the rough water at the San Antonio Tex. Nat's. The last new Butt's i remember seeing was what looked like a Wind Walker that Jimmy Adaholt (sp) had at the Pro Nat's in Ackworth Ga. 1984.

[Master Oil Racing Team]

No Danny, the outrigger looked almost like second sponsons at the rear attached to the cockpit. I posted some pictures of that way toward the front of this thread. There has been so much confusion regarding the windwalker, I would have to go back and refresh my memory since that was after my time.

These sponsons show above were way more radical than anything I ever ran. It's hard to tell, but from the shadows it looks like the outside sponson was for pounding and softening the blow in rough water and the inside designed for helping keep on track in the turns as well as softening the pounding. I never had one with the aft bottom built like that either. Good stuff.:cool:

[David_L6]

Hey,,,I gotta run, but I found these old files of the bottom. I will try to get some recent photos showing a close up of each sponson. But you can see the difference between the two...wider on the right side...I was in the process of refinishing the boat...gg

I saw a boat with a bottom like that under construction at Tim's shop in about '85. I don't remember what the sponsons looked like.

One of my boats ended up with sponsons very similar to that. Tim added on to the regular sponsons that he built the boat with to try to help me get out of the turns quicker. It worked. When I sold the boat it was running very well. Almost as well as anything else out there. In real rough water it was better than most other boats. However, in normal race water I could get around the course quicker with my B&H hydro. As much as I liked the Aerowing I had to go with the boat that gave me the quickest lap times so I sold it.

[alessandro gsc]

hallo....wayne..... giuseppe. speek me...yuo version,.... to history. in the dayton world.. giuseppe version is copy you version.....giuseppe remember your boat not super fast........... is super super fast.. same space shuttle......
by by alessandro to boretto italy
sorry for my english.

[Master Oil Racing Team]

Greetings Allesandro. The boat was very fast, but difficult to drive after Tim added the pads to the sponson. The motor was a new one that Dieter brought over with the latest updates, but I could not handle it in the turns while qualifying. I finished just outside the top five, and was on the bubble if one of the U.S. team scratched.

When we loaned our boat to Giuseppe, he put on a three blade Rolla cleaver prop. It was the first time we ever saw one in person. It was the most dramatic change in handling of a boat I ever saw. Giuseppe did a remarkable job of driving it for the first time he ever sat in the cockpit. I will tell more of this later, with pictures. I have to leave right now.

[alessandro gsc]

are is november 2011 but this boat.. live... and sleep in the boretto ...after 26 years this boat is in the life...

[Master Oil Racing Team]

Do you have pictures?

[alessandro gsc]

no i no have photo.... but in the max 10 day i go. to sevice photografic... hi ihi and after i send.... in the forum...

[Jeff Lytle]

5605856059Just found these pics on S+F from a member there. His username is "Intagator", his name is Gary, and he worked for Tim when he was building in the Houston area.

[Master Oil Racing Team]

I can't see anything Jeff. It says invalid attachment. Gary was there at the time Tim built the Windwalker. Hope you can make these pics work.

[Jeff Lytle]

Yahhh! I know, I was at work and in a hurry!

[Jeff Lytle]

If you look at the 2nd pic, you'll see all the cool stuff Tim way trying to improve the hull:
-Aluminum airtraps, note they have been trimmed between the front and rear sponsons.
-Rear turning fin bracket.......We all know if he had continued designing and racing his boats, he too would have come up with either the multiple fin setups we see today on the heavier capsule boats, or the canted angled fins all hydros use today.... it was just a matter of time.
-Under the Champion sticker on the sponson is a black (metal?) plate that has been bolted or screwed to extend the sponson edge aft. (Don't be confused by the thing that looks like it's attached to the plate--It's the front stand--Look at the wat the rear stand is built and you'll see)
-You'll also see another black plate on the bottom of the boat in front of the aluminum airtrap.....hmmmmm?
-The quest for the last mile per hour.......plexi cowling for his left throttle hand.
-Zak type air induction box.
-Lifting rails (Yeah RIGHT!) on the underside of the rear sponsons.
AMAZING!!
56064
56063

[wboxell]

Jeff, page 15 of this tread has some of my memorys of how windwalker came about. The areas that you pointed out, adding air trap, were because the original design was trying to beat the driver to death! :-) . I remember the RC boat designer guy saying to Tim, "think it'll smooth out if ya drop the hammer and push thru to x mph". Tims response " maybe, maybe not! " :rolleyes:

[J-Dub]

From the 2nd photo, it looks like a lot of kick-out in the set-up. Any accuracy to that??? And Did they run the boat with the rear fin? And what was the result?
Waaaaaaaay Cool Boat!

J-Dub

[Master Oil Racing Team]

The reason Tim had all that Zak air intake and hoses is because from his initial trials at my Dad's house and later tests elsewhere he found that his own boat was drowning him in water. With the radical design and aerodynamics, mist was being generated that was killing his horsepower. He did not understand what the problem was with his initial tests at my Dad's house. When I took the pictures, I had just come back from a Texas Railroad Commission hearing in Austin, and was still dressed up. They were completing tests, and I had not gone out on the water and gotten to a place where I could get good pictures of him running hard or turning. My Dad had put in an underground sprinkler system in his yard in 1977, so Tim was pitting close to the boat ramp and too far away from the front straight to get good pictures of what the problem might be. I took some, but never analyzed them to see if we could figure anything out. I was out of it by then, and so missed out on the development of the Windwalker.

[wboxell]

In 84 when Tim, Joe Rome and I went to Moorehaven FL for the straitaways, Joe had his brand new (very expensive ;-) ) VHS video cam. The motor was laying down a little bit and while reviewing the run in that little bitty view finder on the cam, you could see spray intermittently coming off LF sponsen and going strait into the carbs.

[smittythewelder]

I did a little searching but couldn't find out what I wanted (possibly J Dub will know). Maybe fifteen-twenty years ago, Ron Jones, Jr., in trying to build an Unlimited that was less likely to blow over, produced a boat that had, essentially, an airfoil lifting surface forward (like the one on the Windwalker) and then a big gap to the rear lifting surface, which was just the usual ground-effects cushion that forms under the bottom of any hydro at speed. Gosh, I wish I could find a picture. Dr, Ken Muscatel owned and drove the boat for a time, but I don't know whether he was the original buyer. It looked like a real advance in hull design. When I asked Muscatel about it at a boat show he said that the boat worked very well in smooth water, nice and loose but with no inclination to take off. But in a race, when it got to bouncing around in the rough stuff, it seemed to lose lift and air-cushion, and stop flying and start pounding. I don't know if they were able to remedy this, nor whether Jones kept working with this design in later boats, which as far as I've seen have a small flying control surface or two up front, but not the stationary forward wing as in the photo of the Windwalker. But I don't follow the U-boats or Limiteds much, so again maybe J Dub has seen something along these lines . . . .

[Instigator]

Those are my pictures.
I am Instigator on Scream and Fly.

All I remember of that boat was Tim telling me he designed it to eliminate lift and prevent blow overs which he said he never wanted to do again.
Told me he never (at that point) got it to run.

Way cool pics of the drag boat too.
I remember hearing about it but those are the first pics I’ve seen.

BTW, w/the talk of the Kilo runs, when I worked for Tim (I think ‘1980) I remember Tim telling me about OMC talking to him about building them a Kilo boat for their new F-1 V-8 to go after the O/B record.
It didn’t come to fruition but Tim told me, and them, that he thought they could break the outright propeller driven record, not just the O/B record.
I never doubted him either.

Only wish I wasn’t 19 and only thinking of skirts when I worked for him.
I remember him laughing at me one time (on the way to Wayne’s to test a new lay down boat) and him asking if their wasn’t a pill I could take for my ailment 😂

Wish there was. I’d have way more money.


If you look at the 2nd pic, you'll see all the cool stuff Tim way trying to improve the hull:
-Aluminum airtraps, note they have been trimmed between the front and rear sponsons.
-Rear turning fin bracket.......We all know if he had continued designing and racing his boats, he too would have come up with either the multiple fin setups we see today on the heavier capsule boats, or the canted angled fins all hydros use today.... it was just a matter of time.
-Under the Champion sticker on the sponson is a black (metal?) plate that has been bolted or screwed to extend the sponson edge aft. (Don't be confused by the thing that looks like it's attached to the plate--It's the front stand--Look at the wat the rear stand is built and you'll see)
-You'll also see another black plate on the bottom of the boat in front of the aluminum airtrap.....hmmmmm?
-The quest for the last mile per hour.......plexi cowling for his left throttle hand.
-Zak type air induction box.
-Lifting rails (Yeah RIGHT!) on the underside of the rear sponsons.
AMAZING!!
56064
56063

[Master Oil Racing Team]

You're not alone in that regard Gary. Unfortunately, the only ones who might come out ahead would be pill makers and lawyers, and it still wouldn't make any difference.

I wish that I hadn't retired at that time. We did a lot of testing of different Butts' designs. Sometimes Tim would overshoot what we wanted like "Honcho". It never had enough lift, but it turned out it was perfect for Marshall's 8 cylinder Konig that Dan Kirts ended up with. Tim always changed things up, but never too radical. He came down to drive my D hydro one winter to see what the power was all about before be built his first CDF hydro "Hookin' Bull". I would have loved to get in the couple of radical boats he built just to see what they were all about. Tim didn't like to drive over 100 mph. I would have loved to have done some testing for him while he stood on the bank watching how the boat ran. We did that a number of times and took pictures. I was glad to have been part of the development of Tim's boats. He was a genius.

[Master Oil Racing Team]

I found this picture a couple of days ago, taken by my Dad I think. It was 1970 at Lakeland, Tennessee. Marshall Grant put this race on and called up a lot of his friends to come. We came from everywhereand it was like a divisional race.

This particular heat of B hydro is a historical one. On the inside is Tim Butts with his first or second "short pickle" picklefork hydro. The photo was taken right after the start and I guess Jerry Waldman on the outside and me just inside of him had hit the start just about right and at speed. Tim had jumped the gun, but it must have been very very close. I think the orange and white hydro in front is Jimmie Nichols from Kansas. He was definitely over. Fred Hauenstein wasn't there and Jimmie is the only one I can think of right now that had an orange boat. Doesn't quite look like him in the cockpit though. Maybe someone else might know who it is.

We were running Ray Nydahl's CD ignition then with the Champion polar gap plugs. Supposed to put out 50,000 volts at the plug or something like that. We lost a whole year of racing trying to make it work. The slightest bit of moisture would kill the engine, or make it cut out. I either got some spray from Jimmie or Tim in the turn and my Konig started cutting out. When I was clear from the turn, the motor came back strong and ran like a spotted a$$ ape as my Dad would say. Going into the next turn, the same thing would happen. I would catch up to some guys that passed me, then lose ground again. I may have been getting water from my own boat somehow.

Anyway, Tim Butts ended up winning the heat but was disqualified for jumping the gun. They must have gotten him on film because it looked like the only big jumper was Jimmie Nichols. Tim won very convincinly with his B looper, and that got a lot of people's attention. It was what got him in the spotlight, and he got inquiries about building boats for other drivers. His next boats were all the standard size forks. Dickie Scoponich, Johnny Dortch and John Yale were some of his first customers, all A and B boats.

We had just bought a D hydro for me and one for Clayton Elmer, a C hydro for me and a "tunnel" B hydro that was delivered by Nick Marchetti at Lakeland, Tennessee so we weren't in need of a boat at that time. We had pitted next to Tim Butts and his friend Marty Martinez at DePue the previous year and this was a continuation of a developing friendship. My Dad and Tim talked a long time. When it turned out that the B hydro/tunnel was a dangerous and and flighty wooden kite my Dad wanted Tim to build us a new B hydro. Tim didn't want to. He wanted to build a CDF hydro It wasn't until the following year though that Tim came down to Texas to drive one of our C's or D's to get an idea of what to do with building a CDF hydro.

This picture is a shot of the beginning of Tim Butts' boat building career and his revolutionary Aerowing design.