850CCMH / 850CCMR Drivers Only -Vote

[David Mason]

Please, only drivers of the 850CCMH and 850CCMR class vote.

Do you support a rule change to eliminate the use of custom made crankcase front cover to alter the angle by which fuel/air in introduced into the crancase ? This would basically apply to all engines currently approved for racing in the class. It is targeted towards the OMC three cylinders currently being used in the class as the motor of choice.

Reasoning - Currently the rules are gray enough to allow this modification, which will obviously work. I have heard that some builders are willing to do this for a fee. I heard that fee from one builder in particular is $2000.00 if you send them your stock front cover. It will be sent back ready to bolt on.

I feel the class as it was say 5 or 10 years ago was a cheap class to get into. There are a lot of powerheads still available and they are realitivley cheap compared to the cost on this single modification. I feel this cost will be a barrier to entry for new members of the class. If you want to win you will need this mod type of thinking. The class does not need this added expense. We also do not need to increase the speeds, which this will most likley do.

I am looking for the opinion of the drivers of this class.
__________________

[Mark75H]

The 49's are more than fast enough as they are. Anything that puts even another 5 mph on the speed is likely to be a class killer because it will make the boats harder to handle ... from that ... even fewer people will try it.


BUT ... if we were serious about the class we'd phase in some boat restrictions that slow it down to attract more racers. If you did a pole of "why I don't you race in 850?" the overwhelming answer would be ... "its too fast"

Dave, what would you suggest to encourage more people to race 850? ... keeping it the same, isn't an acceptable answer to the question, because at best ... keeping it the same keeps the same number of racers

[formeone]

maybe you should start a stock 850 class,, so if ya want to go slower go for it,,,, and save a few bucks,,, but every one wants to win so i bet youll spend your money the same or more for props just like all the stockers...

[Racer's Edge]

The exaggerations of the speeds and the costs in this class have gotten WAY out of hand! If one was to believe the BS that that has been circulated on the internet, one would think the the speeds and costs in this class have increased greatly in the last few years. They would also believe the numbers are dwindling. None of the above is true. In 2008 with a full field of twelve boats in FEH (850H) the person who finished 2ND at the APBA National Championships did so with a DMH (750H). In 2010 at the APBA Winter National Championships with a full field the person who finished 2ND was also a DMH. At that race 850H had more entries than any other class.
If the majority of the FEH's don't have the ability beat a decent running DMH I think it is a fair assumption that taking steps to slow FEH down will only eliminate the need for the two separate classes.
As for these trick modified front cases that are supposed to be a "5 MPH" advantage, I don't believe it. At the Winter Nationals I was able to easily win back to back heats beating boats with the cases in question with my max speed being only 93.7 MPH.
As far as the class becoming too expensive, I am proof that a basic good stock cheap fishing engine with good exhaust, propeller, boat and setup can still do well inexpensively. And Just because one person may be charging $2000 for this modification, doesn't mean that someone like Cheney Street (current World Kilo record holder) or Jayson Hay (current APBA National Champion) may do it for substantially less. (just a hunch, I have not asked them though)
If you are looking to make the class shrink. Punish the people who are working the hardest and have made a sizable investment in the class with time, effort and money.
Sorry about the long rant, but rule changes such as this are the reason why my brother and I don't bother to race stock any more. Implementing new rules is more of a Stock mentality rather than Modified mentality. What directiond do you want to take the sport Dave?

[Mark75H]

"Good exhaust" ...

My fellow racer, exactly what does that "good exhaust" cost?

There is an example that refutes your argument that cost has not gone up. I will also argue that the "good exhaust" gave a significant speed increase.

Ever increasing speed will have ever fewer racers at least at the club level. A class is not a class if it only runs at the Nationals, Winter Nats and North American Championship races. Can you name a club race that was not a Divisional or NAC that had a full field?

Why did Luce and Palmer drop out of 850H?

[Racer's Edge]

"Good exhaust" ...

1) My fellow racer, exactly what does that "good exhaust" cost?

2)There is an example that refutes your argument that cost has not gone up. I will also argue that the "good exhaust" gave a significant speed increase.

3)Ever increasing speed will have ever fewer racers at least at the club level. A class is not a class if it only runs at the Nationals, Winter Nats and North American Championship races. Can you name a club race that was not a Divisional or NAC that had a full field?

4)Why did Luce and Palmer drop out of 850H?

1)Unless things have changed a NEW good Kurcz Exhaust system is $495 (this is the least expensive new exhaust in modified with the exception of a FA pipe which is not available new anymore)

2) I did not allude or at least intend to allude to that a good exhaust system does not make a big difference.

3) The speeds are not not ever increasing. I think Mike Lopez or Jerry Weindt's (sp?) equipment from 1992 would still be tough to beat to this day.

In 2008 if I remember right, Constintine Mi had a full field along with Lockhaven PA's race on Sunday. I did not race in 2009 so I have no idea what happened that season

4) At the Winter Nationals in Alabama, Palmer and I had a GREAT race the 2ND heat (so I'm not sure what you are talking about.) As for Luce I would assume that it is due to him also racing 850R and 750R along with his son now racing a large handful of classes. George is a person that will always be at the front of the pack and racing too many classes makes this next to impossible from my experience. But you would have to ask him to get the real story.

[formeone]

DITTO to racers edge,,,, my exhaust 20$ and dose work,,, i set the record 12 years ago now,,,sooo??? where are the speeds increasing???... cost to me to make that engine ..just basic pistons and rods and all that any marina mechanic can dooo,,,, as racers edge said,,, it is prop and boat and set up that alll... i deff dont have money soooooo,,,, as far as speeds hec around here the courses so short we only run in the mid to hi 80"S........as for front cases .. sooo more power???? lets just say ime going back to stock front case for now,,,,,, wont say why yet but lets just say my props didnt match the torque curve,,,,,,when all the drivers enter form-e you know the rules,,,,,,, so why you trying to change them now just to fit a few???? it is the unlimited of the mod category,,,, we all know that going in,,,,soooo??? hec the most expensive part on the whole motor is the gearcase,,,,,

[David Mason]

I see three racers responding here that actually compete in the class. That is hardly a majority if the number of competitors of the class is so high. This survey will most likely take all summer to complete. I plan to talk to racers at the racers for input. Once gathered, if I feel it should move forward I might make a proposal. Most likely though I will let someone else do it. My wording is not qualified enough to write lengthy rules like I read in the rulebook. It would be black and white.

John, while I respect you as a driver, I have to disagree that Jerry's equipment and my fathers equipment from back in the day would come close to we are doing today. Unless of course you are talking about a big course with big corners made for big speed. They may be close in top speed, but the boats of today are far superior to what they ran back then.

Also, do you build your own engines, or do you purchase ? Or is it the team owner that purchases it ? This would save whoever is footing the bill a lot of money if you have to purchase it. And don't feed me the B.S. line. You know dam well that if this continued gray area in the rules exists as it is, only people such as yourself will be able to afford the class. If I am not mistaken, you are a driver, not the owner.

I feel somewhere someone has failed the class by allowing stuff like this to happen. It is no longer just another class; it is simply a Pro class on gas.

If you guys want it like that, then fine, but let the drivers have the say so, not the commission, or APBA. You better tell Sam he needs to start designing a longer boat. I already have a design in mind for mine.

For any interested people, this Poll is also posted over on Hydroracer with additional comments and Poll results.

[David Mason]

Dave, what would you suggest to encourage more people to race 850? ... keeping it the same, isn't an acceptable answer to the question, because at best ... keeping it the same keeps the same number of racers

Sam,

I feel a Modified class for 850CCM would attract some folks. You see, in my experience at the races, a lot of people get excited about the class. Many are very interested in racing it. However, when they see some custom welded parts that don't even resemble the original engine, it makes a lot of them feel intimidated. Modified has always been based of the stock counterparts, or fishing engines. They are basically the same engine, with porting allowed, open exhaust allowed, flywheel mods, shave the heads, try different electronics for ignition if you want.

I feel to grow the class today, and boat racing in general, you need to stick to the original ideas. Today’s generation of kids growing up don't have the same interests as we did. They would rather buy something like a game boy or a jet ski. They don't want to work on it much. They simply don't have the knowledge. So if we turn this into a class that requires a lot of mechanical abilities it is sure to fail eventually. Why not try to address the problem now before drastic measures need to be taken ?

John feels the class is growing or is strong. I guess I disagree with that, not based on stats, but on what I see at the races. A lot of 750CCM's stepping up, or even a 500CCMH once in a while to make the three. When the class began its growth cycle many years ago and a lot of people started trying it out, the costs were reasonable; gearboxes were not $1500.00 or more. Then the speeds gradually increased as people found more to do within the rules, and with set up work and props. If I follow John's philosophy it is as if he is saying that there are no more modifications that can be done to the engine in its fishing block form. We have to turn to morphing on custom welded front covers to find speed now. What's next, allow the 56CI block sleeved down to 49 ? Or are we going to be able to lengthen the rods enough so we have to custom make a piece to bolt on the crankcase, or weld on ? Where does it end ? If that is what the current drivers want, then fine, majority rules. But I would expect to see the class die in the long run in APBA. Or at least turn into a situation like DSH.

Maybe I am wrong here. Who knows. Maybe nothing is broke. Like I said, if the majority wants it, I am fine with it.

[Tim Kurcz]

f. Proposal – Change Rule 2009 Modified Outboard Tech Manual, 850cc class, Rule 5 page 44
1. Add: The 3 cylinder 49.7 cu in OMC motor is required to use the OEM 6 hole reed block. Motion by John Sharp, seconded by J.W. Myers. Motion failed (For 2, Against 5, Abstain 3).

The APBA Mod commission has spoken. A proposal was written, submitted, considered, and voted down. The APBA legal process at work.

Please remember this is supposed to be the premier class in Mod. Racers are drawn to this class precisely because of its unlimited nature - we love the speed and power!!! For those very reasons it is one of the most popular classes (if not the most popular) in APBA, NBRA, and AOF.

Consider the risk in your attempts to slow the class down by adding rules, or worse, creating a "stock-like" FEXS. First, such a class would greatly increase the duties of volunteer inspectors who would be called upon to pull your head, exhaust, and intake at every event to make certain your FEXS is stock. Then consider the engine changes between classes!

Secondly, some will consider alternatives like the unlimited X-class SLT. This is a bore and stroke <1000cc Mod class in the 80 MPH range. You can take any 850/FE/SE mod powerhead (even a Mod-50 or 56 six-pack), put it under a cowl on a shiftable gearcase with internal exhaust, and go have fun! The only limitations are no nitrous, turbos, blowers, or alky. Now that's unlimited!

If you really don't don't like current 850 rules, write a legitimate proposal and submit it to the committee as per the legal APBA process, it will be considered next year. If you don't like the process, perhaps you should consider another less formidable Mod class. Or, if you really like rules and "inexpensive" racing, you should go run Stock.

Whichever path you choose, please stop these back door attempts to change rules just because you don't want to invest. If you spent half as much time on your engines as you do whining on HR and BRF, you'd be much more competitive. Which reminds me; I'm late for the shop. Got to finish up another nationals quality 850 - just in time for the 2010 season!

Tim

[jekincaid]

Hi all! I wholeheartedly agree with and support the Dave Mason camp regarding the 850cc front cover modifications. I understand the points/counterpoints, but fail to see any upside for the FE class in terms of; 1) attracting new drivers to FE, 2) retaining present drivers, 3) minimizing our insurance costs, 4) overall costs to drivers to remain competitive, 5) safety, 6) competitive racing fields from a spectators' standpoint, 7) etc..etc... That said, I applaud the efforts of those in their quest for additional speed and competitive advantage. Personally, I believe this particular modification goes over the top and violates the spirit/intent of APBA Modified Outboard Racing rules. Clearly, this modification is based on a loophole within the technical rules. I cannot be critical of those who discovered and exploit the loophole, that is simply racing. Admittedly, I have not raced in APBA for a number of years. So, I don't have a vote or say in APBA rules. As an active NBRA SEH driver, however, I would never support this modification being adopted in our organization. Good luck to all in '10...John Kincaid 54-V

[David Mason]

I did reply to Tim's post at hydroracer, he copy and pasted that one here or vica versa. I won't clog this site with all that, I don't plan to name call, I have not yet.

Thanks John, you made my point a little better than I could in a lot less words. I guess I should have paid more attention in school english class than racing or hunting.

The fact I don't write nearly as well as some does not mean I am any less passionate about boat racing than they are.

Flame away, I am still standing.

[Mark75H]

John made my point as well ... he named 2 races in 2 years ... not an indication of a healthy class outside of the special race events

[Danny Pigott]

This is a FE ex sys. we made in the early 80's. It worked well, I ran it on a FEH an a 75 OMC Tunnel . We could have improved on it later, but it ran good like it was. I am going to put my old FE motor back together an have pic's soon.

[David Mason]

Water cool that puppy and you have the Mod 50 exhaust ! Great idea back then you had. Did that cost you $495.00 to make ? ;)

[David Mason]

[B]f. Proposal –
Whichever path you choose, please stop these back door attempts to change rules just because you don't want to invest. If you spent half as much time on your engines as you do whining on HR and BRF, you'd be much more competitive. Which reminds me; I'm late for the shop. Got to finish up another nationals quality 850 - just in time for the 2010 season!

Tim

Tim,

First, I don't backdoor. This is a public forum; I am asking the drivers to vote, not you. I see you voted to skew the results, but rest assured I am tracking the votes and will take that into consideration first. Perhaps it is you that needs a lesson in process. Don't attack my integrity because I am simply doing a Poll on a public forum. I am asking for opinions of the drivers. This is not a proposal to change anything, or to add ANY rules.

Let's see the results from the 850CCMh class in Hillsdale last year... I imagine you will find that I am very competitive in the class, and no, I did not see 100MPH on any GPS there like you have claimed Rich saw. I think I competed against at least two of your engines there ? Maybe not, I really don't care one way or the other. I am simply there to race and have fun, not parade around.

Once I have gathered enough information from the drivers of the class and what their opinions are, it should help the commission understand more fully what the drivers want, which is who they represent. Let’s not forget that part.

Does anyone else think I am back dooring something here ?

If that is the perception, it is not the intention. Information gathering to make a more detailed proposal to reword the rule that some have exploited the gray area in. It would not add a rule; it would simply change the wording so that it is more black and white than it is gray.

Tim explained what he is doing in the Mod 50 thread. I think this is basically what people will intend to do. From that thread spins this.

I will stand firmly my ground. I will also accept whatever the drivers opinions are, to eliminate this or not. I will not be influenced by bullying, personal attacks on my integrity, or engine builders. I simply want the drivers opinions.

Thank You to those that have voted what their opinion is, and are current drivers.

John P. - I hope this helps clarify my intentions, and the direction I want to head.

[Mark75H]

BRF is not a forum for personal attacks. Please stay on topic and communicate personal comments via PM.

[A/B Speedliner]

Possess is to have possession of and posses are groups of people called to aid a officer of the law to help enforce the law. What is your intention?

[Tim Kurcz]

Sam, I agree that the forum should be for constructive use, but must say I agree with Anthony 100%. Dave Mason began a smear campaign against my clearly legal APBA 850/FE engine - completely unchecked - since he first saw it at Hillsdale. So if you're going to censure Anthony, you'd best take Dave to task first.

I've been more than gracious tolerating his attacks and reminding him and all others we have a representative commission voted in by the drivers to review proposals and make decisions regarding the direction of our sport. Anthony went through the same discussion. The system works - there is no need for posturing on the internet or anywhere else - either write a proposal and submit it or shut up and go racing.

The fact that the Masons don't like me or my engines has been obvious for years. It began with my 45SS (1991), my first triple (1993), my twin cam 45SS (1998), my Merc 444 (2008) most recent triple (2009), and even my new 45SS mod due later this year. Most readers know the triple he's been talking about - images have been published for all to see. There are no secrets - all my engines have been inspected and foung legal by many APBA Mod inspectors. The shame here is that any threat to the Mason racing program comes under attack.

For the record, I've not personally raced since winning the IOA Indiana State Championships back-to-back 2003 and 2004 at Huntington. I miss the competition dearly, but decided to spend time raising my children and helping other racers instead. I worked feverishly to pickup where Bud Parker left off, spending an inordinate amount of time building exhaust systems, towers, powerheads, and many other components for Mod racers across the USA.

This winter alone, I built 2 complete engines, 7 powerheads, 9 towers, and 5exhaust systems for Mod customers. Owner/drivers all benefit from the education I received from Bud and Harry Brinkman. All get the best possible construction without bias at a fair price - my contribution to the sport. I often work 22-26 hours per weekend building engines for others - time away from family, friends, and my own projects.

My promise is continued development of Mod racing engines to the limit of the rules - all are legal - some offer great promise. I'll build that same technology for all racers interested in going faster. Attached is an image of my newest engine - completed this weekend while all this unproductive arguing was taking place. I rest my case.

Tim

[Mark75H]

Well said.


Dave Mason began a smear campaign against my clearly legal APBA 850/FE engine - completely unchecked - since he first saw it at Hillsdale.

This differs from personal attacks I am warning against.

[Mark75H]

Tim, what do those pictures have to do with 850? It doesn't look like a legal 850 to me. Is that the motor you refer to Dave attacking?

Separately, you have clearly not followed the original request of the poll of registered 850 drivers ... since you have not raced in years.



On the other hand, it is clear that even among the current 850 drivers, the overwhelming consensus is to allow the welded fronts to continue ... in that vein, Dave might as well close the poll and delete this contentious thread

[Mark75H]

As far as following the "process" I typed up a proposal a couple years back, gave copies to the chairman and my commissioner ... and it was tabled without consideration ... politics rule over democracy. Just like in the military its who you know and who you blow

[OUTBOARDER]

BRF is not a forum for personal attacks. Please stay on topic and communicate personal comments via PM.



SAM
email or pm the specifics so I dont have to go over your head like last time. Have you forgotten?

Anthony

[Mark75H]

I have no idea what you are talking about

Stay on topic and use email or PM for personal off topic stuff.

[OUTBOARDER]

What do you mean PM.
Do not ever challange you on BRF forums?

[Bill Van Steenwyk]

I have followed this thread with much interest the past couple of weeks for a variety of reasons. Prime among them is an interest and admiration for folks who can build engines, boats, or other components used in this sport, WITHIN THE RULES, but by being very creative within those same rules, and by doing so, can gain an advantage. After all, that is what racing is all about.

WITHOUT TAKING SIDES EITHER WAY IN THIS DISCUSSION, I CAN CERTAINLY UNDERSTAND HOW STRONG FEELINGS ON EITHER SIDE OF THIS ARGUMENT CAN ARISE.

That being said, it would seem ( and I know this well from past experience, as Sam pointed out) "it is not always who you know" when trying to amend or change the rule book, no matter what category is involved. It is a very politicized process, and the fewer participants, the more political it can get. As most know, boat racing right now is not highly populated with either drivers or owners, or both.

As one who highly admires minds who can dream up ways to build an engine within the rules, to gain what folks like Smokey Yunick gained as an "unfair advantage" in Stock and Indy Car Racing some years ago, it is easy to see both sides of this discussion ( even leaving out some of the heated comments).I don't pretend to have a solution to the problem with this type engine modification, or any other problems that might exist in the Mod category, but it does not take much imagination to see that if cooler heads don't get together and find a reasonable solution, the situation can only get worse, not better, especially after reading the posts on this thread the last few days, and having had experience with devisive subjects myself off and on during the time I raced.

I don't know Tim Kurz, other than seeing some of the pictures here on BRF of beautiful engines that he has been responsible for over the last few years, but even if he were the biggest con artist in the country (which I don't believe about him, or any of the other posters here either) it would be a shame to piss him off to the point that he would withdraw from the MOD Category. Craftsman like him only come by once in a great while, and that means no disrespect to any others on the other side of this discussion. There are always some that for one reason or another, can't or don't do their own motor work, and you need more like him and others, not less.

Perhaps a cooling off period by all, and a little "mediation" might be good right now. There are not enough of you to let something like this fracture and split you further apart. Look at Boat Racing history over the last 60 years. Does anyone think there are more racers now than before, or that the sport is stronger?? And a lot of the reason for the lesser numbers now (among others) can be laid to these type disagreements that caused racers to quit, form other sanctioning organizations, etc., which have NEVER led to the groups being stronger in the end, or with more members.

In these type disagreements someone always has to take the first step. It would probably be much better if that were done in a "not public" forum, as unfortunately some still paint the first one to make that type of move as being "weak" when in reality they are the strongest and are the best type of leaders.

Good luck in solving this problem, among all the rest boat racing has these days.

[Tim Kurcz]

For Sam, Bill, and others;

This is the engine David is complaining about. Images were posted on Fast Fred's thread and HR last fall, and on HR this week by Cheney. Rich Welch drove it to an easy win at Hillsdale, this after fighting to make it work at two prior outings: Little Jimmy Robb drove it at Dayton, Rich at Alexandria prior.

The fact is I race through others, having built over 20 FE/850 powerheads for others in the past 5 years which have campained to lesser or greater success, proving there's more to racing than just engines. My 235# Ropp hydro serves as a testbed and is ready to race at any time. Though 10 years old now (and heavy), racers would find it very competitive indeed. So, am I an FE/850 racer? - you bet.

As for the rule making; political though it may be, we must abide by the process. Without this function, the rules would change at the whim of the commission, or worse by a non-scientific poll of drivers. Proposals must be meaningful, well written, supported by statistics, and beneficial to the sport. Many times they take several submissions to get correct.

My larger point is instead of arguing, spend time writing a decent proposal or building engines to meet the current rules. With that, I'm out to the shop to fire up the beast published yesterday (a 100 MPH+ laker), and port an 850 for a west coast customer. See you at the race course.

Tim

[Mark75H]

Apparently there is a lot of misunderstanding about this thread and poll.

IT IS NOT AN ATTEMPT TO MAKE A RULE OR CIRCUMVENT THE RULE MAKING PROCESS VIA THIS THREAD.

I have no idea how that could be interpreted from Dave's posts.

It was a question to current 850 racers ... (who would be the the ones who make and change rules, not past racers, motor builders or other "interested parties"); that I know of, if you are not an active racer in a particular class, you are not eligible to vote on rule changes to that class.

It should be obvious that if the current RACERS are not interested in changing the rules, there is no point in taking the time to write up a proposal that will has no chance of passing.

Dave was just asking current RACERS to give him some guidance on whether to take the time, make contacts and do the pen pushing.

Its clear from both polls that the majority would not vote to prohibit altering the fronts of OMC triples ... his question is answered.

[Aeroliner]

It seems like the rules are very clear for this class. Having built a Merc 44 for the class and seeing Tims engines I beleive they are well within the limits of the rules. The smaller OMC is allowed to use any carb the way I read the rule book.

5. No additional reed ports or carburetors are permitted on a motor from the number specified by the
manufacturer. No other/additional means shall be used to introduce an air/fuel mixture into the
engine crankcase area from outside the motor. On the OMC 49.7 cu in block, any OMC one barrel
carburetor with a venturi of 1.250 (+/- 0.15) and a bore of 1.500 (+/- 0.015) may be used. On the
44.9 cu. in. OMC where any OMC outboard motor carburetor is permitted. No size or measurement
specs apply to reeds or carburetors, however material may not be added to increase the size of the
carburetor throat and reed ports. This specific rule does not apply to the Mercury 4 cyl/44 cu. in.
and 6 cyl./60 cu. in. motors.
6. On service engines that may use a design other than reed cage induction, the manufacturers
specifications and tolerances shall be retained throughout the whole intake system from carburetor
intake mouth to intake ports in the cylinder wall.
7. No superchargers or turbochargers are allowed. This refers to mechanical devices used to increase
the amount of air/fuel mixture being fed into the engine. This does not refer to scoop or length
tuning of the carburetor intake.
8. Mercury 650, 4 cyl 60/62 cu. in. motors may use any make, type or size carburetors, conventionally
(front) mounted, 2 carburetors maximum, adapters may be added.
9. All APBA Modified safety rules apply and on carburetors or fuel injectors having throttle slide valves.
They shall be adjusted to fully close.
10. Only single barrel carburetors are allowed, except 44.9 cu in OMC (45SS).
MERCURY 6 CYLINDER 60 CU. IN. MOTORS - see spec sheet
1. Fueling may only be accomplished through and via a maximum of 3 conventionally mounted, single
barrel carburetors of any make or size.
2. It is not permissible to have removable cylinder heads on this motor.
MERCURY 4 CYLINDER 60/62 CU. IN. MOTORS – see spec sheet
1. Fueling may only be accomplished through and via a maximum of 2 conventionally mounted, single
barrel carburetors of any make or size.

Alan

[OUTBOARDER]

It seems like the rules are very clear for this class. Having built a Merc 44 for the class and seeing Tims engines I beleive they are well within the limits of the rules. The smaller OMC is allowed to use any carb the way I read the rule book.

5. No additional reed ports or carburetors are permitted on a motor from the number specified by the
manufacturer. No other/additional means shall be used to introduce an air/fuel mixture into the
engine crankcase area from outside the motor. On the OMC 49.7 cu in block, any OMC one barrel
carburetor with a venturi of 1.250 (+/- 0.15) and a bore of 1.500 (+/- 0.015) may be used. On the
44.9 cu. in. OMC where any OMC outboard motor carburetor is permitted. No size or measurement
specs apply to reeds or carburetors, however material may not be added to increase the size of the
carburetor throat and reed ports. This specific rule does not apply to the Mercury 4 cyl/44 cu. in.
and 6 cyl./60 cu. in. motors.
6. On service engines that may use a design other than reed cage induction, the manufacturers
specifications and tolerances shall be retained throughout the whole intake system from carburetor
intake mouth to intake ports in the cylinder wall.
7. No superchargers or turbochargers are allowed. This refers to mechanical devices used to increase
the amount of air/fuel mixture being fed into the engine. This does not refer to scoop or length
tuning of the carburetor intake.
8. Mercury 650, 4 cyl 60/62 cu. in. motors may use any make, type or size carburetors, conventionally
(front) mounted, 2 carburetors maximum, adapters may be added.
9. All APBA Modified safety rules apply and on carburetors or fuel injectors having throttle slide valves.
They shall be adjusted to fully close.
10. Only single barrel carburetors are allowed, except 44.9 cu in OMC (45SS).
MERCURY 6 CYLINDER 60 CU. IN. MOTORS - see spec sheet
1. Fueling may only be accomplished through and via a maximum of 3 conventionally mounted, single
barrel carburetors of any make or size.
2. It is not permissible to have removable cylinder heads on this motor.
MERCURY 4 CYLINDER 60/62 CU. IN. MOTORS – see spec sheet
1. Fueling may only be accomplished through and via a maximum of 2 conventionally mounted, single
barrel carburetors of any make or size.

Alan

It is good just would group engine specific rules with their engine and general rules before. To make it clear which engine a rule applies to.

thanks for the info, I have to get ready.

Anthony

[formeone]

seem"s some people want to keep it a 1.95$ class it is NOT that.. i would hate to see form-e become a class with a lot of bs rules we knew what we where getting into whan we joined this class,,, so why a few trying to change it????.... if ya want stock fronts or what ever race nbra or aof,, as i will be doing both... just reminder went 106 mph stock front ,,, go figg

[OUTBOARDER]

This has all been done on the merc def. in the 50's so what is new, they ended up with a custom made Looper. Just let all OE OMC's run in FE, an the few who can find a M31 will say ,that is what the rules say, too bad you can't get one. Is this what you want, it would be fine with me i have one . the rules should have stayed ,no
Mod 50 parts ,an stock on the outside. There is a lot more to this story I will tell later. You can spend a lot of money on stuff that is pretty on the outside but useless in the race.I don't know everything about this motor, but have been building them from when the 65 came out.

I have a 49.7 block and am looking at the cost
From what Ive seen the M50 rods and pistons help with reliability.

Anthony

[David Mason]

I will close this nonsense now. Obviously it turned bad. I fell right into the trap. My bad. I guess since Tim builds engines for other categories some can confuse if one engine is for Mod or SLT, or something else.

And Tim, you did not mention the one engine in particular i was talking about, sorry. I won't mention it.

Anthony, If I can ever understand what you are saying I will respond to in a Private Message. At this point, after you name called "Midget" I see no point to respond. Good luck in your adventures, lets hope it turns out lucartive for both you and the customer this time.

John P., thanks for the PM, I appreciate it. I was out in the shop all weekend building a new boat. As Tim says, making chips while all this nonsense was going on.


Sam is right, this internet Poll has basically said, let it remain. I will still ask around at the races for opinions, as I know there are more than the very few who actually voted on the Poll, and also were current drivers.

Should I hear more drivers are against allowing the mods in the gray areas of the rules, I will attempt to get a proposal in for the next National Meeting. If not, I won't.

Thanks for the phone calls guys, I have heard from a few drivers who elect to not use the internet.

Sorry this thread went the direction it did, It was meant to poll current drivers of the class and see what direction it needed to go. A lot of passionate people in boat racing. I guess being pro-active in the process is balked at. Anthony claims I don't know any process, maybe he is right. Lots of politics at work... and that is a shame.

[OUTBOARDER]

I will close this nonsense now. Obviously it turned bad. I fell right into the trap. My bad. I guess since Tim builds engines for other categories some can confuse if one engine is for Mod or SLT, or something else.

And Tim, you did not mention the one engine in particular i was talking about, sorry. I won't mention it.

Anthony, If I can ever understand what you are saying I will respond to in a Private Message. At this point, after you name called "Midget" I see no point to respond. Good luck in your adventures, lets hope it turns out lucartive for both you and the customer this time.

John P., thanks for the PM, I appreciate it. I was out in the shop all weekend building a new boat. As Tim says, making chips while all this nonsense was going on.


Sam is right, this internet Poll has basically said, let it remain. I will still ask around at the races for opinions, as I know there are more than the very few who actually voted on the Poll, and also were current drivers.

Should I hear more drivers are against allowing the mods in the gray areas of the rules, I will attempt to get a proposal in for the next National Meeting. If not, I won't.

Thanks for the phone calls guys, I have heard from a few drivers who elect to not use the internet.

Sorry this thread went the direction it did, It was meant to poll current drivers of the class and see what direction it needed to go. A lot of passionate people in boat racing. I guess being pro-active in the process is balked at. Anthony claims I don't know any process, maybe he is right. Lots of politics at work... and that is a shame.


i will take my posts down
i just want an agreement based on rules, may not happen.
i am getting ready.

[David_L6]

From what Ive seen the M50 rods and pistons help with reliability.

Anthony

That's my understanding also. I am using Mod 50 pistons in the motor that I am building strictly due to that. As expensive as this thing has turned out to be I can't afford to build a motor that won't last more than a few races.

Personally, I would prefer if the rules for the 3 holer OMC powerhead allowed only porting (not added ports), the Mod 50 style pistons that Phil McDaniel had made due to the reason stated above, and balancing (stock everything else). I think it goes without saying that you need the correct rods to go with the McDaniel's pistons but I will mention them because someone else will if I don't. :rolleyes:

I hope that the NBRA rules stay as they are and don't go the route the APBA rules have.

[Tim Kurcz]

Actually, the longer Mod-50 rods were selected to improve rod angularity, but reliability improved because the crack prone cast "fishing" pistons were replaced with more durable forged types for racing. Most racers have heard the OMC triple breaks rods: No uh-uh! The reason they window cases (and occasionally blocks) is when the badly fatigued cast piston breaks, a chunk falls off and gets caught between the rod and case. Mystery solved.

BTW: FE rules have not changed substantially since I built my first OMC in 1993. I encourage you to go to www.apba-racing.com/Forms/2010/010MOtech.pdf and read the rules. You'll find quite specific, and better written than you might guess.

Then go to www.racenbra.com/nbrarulebook.htm and read their rules for comparison. You may find the NBRA make inspection simpler as bore and stroke are primary. Interestingly, these rules do not prohibit use of built for racing blocks. So, is an honest to God Mod-50 block is legal there?

Finally; enough of your come-ons David. I have no idea what "particular" engine you're referring to, so neither does anybody else. This is interesting as you have never set foot in my shop, have no clue as to what I build, and yet attack my work regardless - just because it poses a threat. Isn't it about time you stop the innuendo?

Tim

[hydroplay]

I get a chuckle out of Tim Kurz saying that absolutely everything he does is completely within the printed rules. I won't argue with that at all but I certainly do remember when he was making a big stink about Jerry Wienandt's 650 Merc. Kurz maintained that it wasn't legal despite the fact that it met every printed rule just like Kurz's projects do now. So now the shoe is on the other foot and he sings a different tune. Wienandt's 650 Merc won a number of Nationals and was pretty much the class of the field at the time. It was so good that Jerry even let Chuck Petersen run it one year for another championship, yet Kurz was adamant about trying to get it thrown out despite it meeting all the rules. Oh how times change!

[OUTBOARDER]

That's my understanding also. I am using Mod 50 pistons in the motor that I am building strictly due to that. As expensive as this thing has turned out to be I can't afford to build a motor that won't last more than a few races.

Personally, I would prefer if the rules for the 3 holer OMC powerhead allowed only porting (not added ports), the Mod 50 style pistons that Phil McDaniel had made due to the reason stated above, and balancing (stock everything else). I think it goes without saying that you need the correct rods to go with the McDaniel's pistons but I will mention them because someone else will if I don't. :rolleyes:

I hope that the NBRA rules stay as they are and don't go the route the APBA rules have.


Really need to look at both sets of rules side by side to do anything productive.

When i started out there was confilicting views in many areas.
I guess the internet has helped communication is some area's.

The pistons and rods make sense, I will go a step further and sleeve over the open transfer and boost port.

[David Mason]

Finally; enough of your come-ons David. I have no idea what "particular" engine you're referring to, so neither does anybody else. This is interesting as you have never set foot in my shop, have no clue as to what I build, and yet attack my work regardless - just because it poses a threat. Isn't it about time you stop the innuendo?

Tim

Tim, you are right in everything, I digress. It is not worth it to me anymore. You are a threat to be reckoned with, for sure.

One last point, go to the IOA website, look at the results of Hillsdale 2009 Sept. event. I think Rich was in the top 3 or 5.... I checked. I just want to make certain people know I speak the truth, and not assume the truth.

As for this thread, I can't believe how many people can't read the rules... Drivers of the class vote only... I imagine if they can't follow that simple rule, they might not be able to follow class rules without some guidence.

[OUTBOARDER]

Tim, you are right in everything, I digress. It is not worth it to me anymore. You are a threat to be reckoned with, for sure.

One last point, go to the IOA website, look at the results of Hillsdale 2009 Sept. event. I think Rich was in the top 3 or 5.... I checked. I just want to make certain people know I speak the truth, and not assume the truth.

As for this thread, I can't believe how many people can't read the rules... Drivers of the class vote only... I imagine if they can't follow that simple rule, they might not be able to follow class rules without some guidence.

David,
I have decided to not reply any longer to your angry hurtful PM's so here is what I have to say for the whole world to see.

Step up be a example and give the guidance.

Do not try to tell me what not do to an engine until you can
show pics of what you do to an engine.

If you need to get a point across a picture will work.
I make pictures most of the day, they call them drawings and people called machinsts use the drawings to make parts.

I am sorry you do not understand what I am saying, the people at work do not have a problem understanding and if they do I make a pictre so they can understand.

One more thing Norfolk VA is 100 miles south of Richmond.

[Aeroliner]

While looking through the shed I found a powerhead and Brinkman H leg already mounted. So what do you do? Well I'm a Merc guy but did sell both Mercury and OMC engines in my boatyard. Seems like I need to join the fun with an OMC. I beleive this old stinger will work fine and be available as a companiom to the TX444DK that we built last year and the new 6 cylinder thats nearing completion. Hopefull this powerhead is a legal starting point! Now we have to get smart with the mods and the exhaust. We hope to run the TX444DK at hillsdale in June.
Alan

[Tim Kurcz]

I get a chuckle out of Tim Kurz saying that absolutely everything he does is completely within the printed rules. I won't argue with that at all but I certainly do remember when he was making a big stink about Jerry Wienandt's 650 Merc. Kurz maintained that it wasn't legal despite the fact that it met every printed rule just like Kurz's projects do now. So now the shoe is on the other foot and he sings a different tune. Wienandt's 650 Merc won a number of Nationals and was pretty much the class of the field at the time. It was so good that Jerry even let Chuck Petersen run it one year for another championship, yet Kurz was adamant about trying to get it thrown out despite it meeting all the rules. Oh how times change!

There's a big difference Sam: Parts for the OMC's I build were/are available for the general public to purchase in 1990. At that time, anyone could create a good FE from dealer parts (45SS or loop triple). The same was not possible with the 650XS. This I know as I apprenticed 1972-73 at the only full race inventory Mercury dealer in Michigan (Fairlane Boats and Motors), and still had decent connections. The mechanic I replaced (Jeff Ettinger) was a tunnel racer with a 650XS on loan from Kiekhaefer. He explained parts were only available to selected racers. There was no published parts list and isn't to this day. But I know where there's a very low time factory 650XS available.....

Anyway, according to Jeff, Kiekhaefer only built 75 of these engine. So it didn't make the 250 rule and parts could not be purchased unless you were very well connected. As a Mercury man this inabilty to construct an XS was quite a disappointment. If you look at the rules (same today as then), it seemed too good to be true a 14 petal reed box engine was allowed to compete with the OMC's. So how did it get approved? To my knowledge, Gerry was the only racer that had not one, but two! And of course his workmanship was/is excellent. Hmmmm. Good connections.

Well, I was just plain pissed that I couldn't have one myself. So you're right, just like Dave Mason, I complained. The difference is I sent a proposal to delete it with documentation to the commisson in the fall of 1992. Politics as it was, the proposal was quickly rejected. Knowing the 45SS Mod could not compete with any of these triples, I began construction of my first triple spring of 1993 at Bud's. It took all summer to build that engine which first ran at Coldwater September 1993. I was looking at 90 MPH going into the beach turn - incredible - just before I melted my first piston.

Gerry told me he'd seen the "Century Mark" with his 650, but was happier propping it short for better punch to mid-90's. Naturally, I was eager to see the mark. After a rebore/piston in October 1993 and driving downwind with my nose on the windshield, I saw 101MPH in "The Pink" a 12' Ropp (have got great video). Though the speed later proved to be 96MPH after Keller calibration, this was simply incredible. All was forgotten about the 650XS, and things got progressively faster. I still have that first engine and it will still break 100 on a long wheel - still a great feeling.

What did I learn from all this? It's easier and much more satisfying to take a Smokey Yunick look at rules and build more power than waste time with a frustrating political fight. Does that satisfy you?

Tim

[Mark75H]

I think you are confusing the X motors with the XS motors

[David Mason]

Anthony,

No, I don't post pics of my engines, never have, and never will. I am not a show off.

Sorry if you take offense to that, it is what it is.

Have a good season, and good luck in racing. My offer still stands, I can build you a boat light enough for you to run, but it will be expensive. Kind of like those Atralights.

[David Mason]

Tim,

Thanks for the PM. It was very informative. While I appreciate your ideas, I completely disagree with you.

All,
There is a gray area in the rules that is being exploited. This needs addressed before this class becomes an expensive, only to be raced by people with a superior knowledge of engines, and the ability to work on them, or someone with deep pockets.

Here is my suggestions to ALL 850CCMH / 850CCMR drivers that don't have deep pockets and the ability to build a exploited version of the rules engine. Sell your rigs now, because in time, the class is going to be so sparse that it will be just like DSH, hard to get enough boats at a local race. And who likes to watch three 850CCMH's run around in a parade ? Nobody.

Judging from the Poll most of the people that don't race the class are in favor of this, I counted 4 or 5 in the poll in favor. Some from other regions, so good luck to you all.

And if you really want to compete at a level that is fair, and there will be no exploiting of the rules, run your rig in NBRA, and leave the APBA 850CCM class to the ones who choose to take it down the path it is heading. I for one have no intention of supporting such a thing. I guess a few bad apples ruin the whole bunch.

[Mark75H]

in time, the class is going to be so sparse that it will be just like DSH, hard to get enough boats at a local race. And who likes to watch three 850CCMH's run around in a parade ? Nobody.

Dave I agree with your thoughts that the class will die by its own hand, but I disagree with you about heats of 850 with just a few boats.

My observation at the races is that there are 3 classes people run to the beach to watch ...

J ... people love to watch the kids race. Its often like watching a minor league baseball game ... you get to see the stars of the future in their formative years. You may see an incident that makes a particular driver develop a particular habit in racing that continues for decades

C ... because there is almost always a full heat every where, every time. If it were true of every class, the whole thing would be a bore

850 ... even if the reality of high speed isn't there, the potential of it attracts people to watch ... even if there are only 3 boats

It might be that you don't see this because you are on the water ... being watched.

[David Mason]

Dave I agree with your thoughts that the class will die by its own hand, but I disagree with you about heats of 850 with just a few boats.

My observation at the races is that there are 3 classes people run to the beach to watch ...

J ... people love to watch the kids race. Its often like watching a minor league baseball game ... you get to see the stars of the future in their formative years. You may see an incident that makes a particular driver develop a particular habit in racing that continues for decades

C ... because there is almost always a full heat every where, every time. If it were true of every class, the whole thing would be a bore

850 ... even if the reality of high speed isn't there, the potential of it attracts people to watch ... even if there are only 3 boats

It might be that you don't see this because you are on the water ... being watched.

Enjoy the parade of 850's. I won't be flocking to watch a three boat race for it. Full fields is where the real racing is. I have watched plenty of 850CCMH races from the beach. I took a season off from it and concentrated on my runabout a couple years ago. I can honestly say, my observations were when the numbers were weak, people watched until the first turn....

I think it is time to close this thread. To much of a pissing match going on now.