How about some NEW rules???

[Ron Hill]

Why not have a race where classes are combined and the only passing would be on the OUTSIDE...Racing would be ON SUNDAY ONLY....Saturdays would be for FAMILY, FRIENDS and FUN....


Think about Chowchilla this weekend....


Hmmmm...

Chad Hill and YOUNG, BEAUTIFUL WIFE, Cory.....Are going to a birthday party in Fresno...So, Chad convinces his wife he should go to Chowchilla to race....

OK, Chad has a new boat...untested.....So, in order to go to the race and MAYBE have a chance of beating someone, he needs to test...Ok, no testing Saturday, I'm sure as we will need to race for 7 hours to cover the bills for the race and make sure everyone gets POINTS for their classes...

So, Chad wants to go testing on Friday...Hmm, seems in the OLD DAYS people worked on FRIDAY

Now, you test Friday, drive all night Friday to get to the race...race all day, the schedule finishes before dark if you are lucky...Then, you drive back to Freson and go to the birthday party??????

Then, Sunday, you get up and RACE ALL DAY AGAIN..... Then, you drive -4-6 hours home....

Why am I coming offf so negative????

Because, if the race was SUNDAY....Saturday could be spent getting to the race, making a few test runs and then going to the birthday party...The race would be Sunday, and ONLY Sunday...People could have spent time FOOLING with their boats on Saturday and "HANGING OUT"...


I've never seen anyone show up for a two day race, like show up Saturday night, then race Sunday and WIN....You can't JUST RACE one day...People use Saturday for DIALING IN...So, the poor SOB who worked Saturday and shows up to race is at a disadvantage....

I went to COOPEROPOLIS, and most guys were there FRIDAY. Why...Because that's what it takes to be ready for Saturday Racing...

All that two day races has accomplished is making the RACING MORE EXPENSIVE and made the insurance companies more money...

I cal for a BAn on two day races or at least only allow POINTS FOR ONE WEEKEND....(Nationals/Winter Nationals/ Divisionals...NO)...Weekend races, YES...

We need a cheaper insurance for two days, on testing day, one race day....

ADD CHAD HILL:

Let's see how the weekend goes....Not all women like to stand in the hot sun for 7-8 hours and watch boat races for two days......(Even if their husband IS racing)....

My fear is: The ones that want the points. The ones that want the titles.
These people don't really want new people in the SPORT. They want new people in the SPORT TO BEAT......

What do we do for the NEW guy?????

[Moneypit]

See Ron's "Why people win" post from a while back.....And see my reply............MP

[Mark75H]

40 years ago when you could have gone to a race once or twice a month in your back yard all spring and summer National High Points meant something more. Now it really means you can take off and travel to more races than other guys.

I'm jealous of the guys that can travel far enough, often enough to be in the hunt for National Points. There is no way I can afford it with my fairly good job.

[bill boyes]

Well Ron, The cost to a club is about the same for a 1 as a 2 day race. If the clubs ran only a one day race they would go under. That = no clubs no races. Then there is the 15 race rule for Hi-points etc. I liked the old days when we had testing in the A.M before the race. Now we go to race sites and we cannot start a motor till 10a.m. on Saturday and 12 noon on Sunday. Then again the sites witout the noise problem we have to start the race at 10a.m. and bust our butts to get done by 4p.m. in the olds days we had nine classes in Stock A,B,C,D hydro and runabout and 36 runabout, There were no MODS or OPC and the ALKYS and Inboards raced their own schedule/sanctions. Today, Region 11 schedules all J( includes axsr,asxh), all Stock, (plus45SST) All MODs SST45, Sport C, Pro classes OSY, 250R 350R 500R and Cracker Box.
At the next race where you want to test we will also run the Nor Cal 400 for new racers, and a Mathon on Saturday after the closed course races. Now Add the SST45WFLS series(Beach Start) on top of all this. And we want to done by 4p.m. No wondow our work force is getting smaller. TOOOOO many classes.

[ferv888ipba]

Bill,
Could not agree with you more. USTS is lucky enough to have enough guys willing to travel into the midwest to accomplish a PRO only boat race. I remember announcing for you guys out there and the poor officials were the ones running the marathon.

I know the cost of the insurance makes it mandatory without a sponsor to run as many classes as you can.

I saw an idea that I think makes sense, try to combine as many classes as you can, fer and 350r maybe or some such. Still collect same amount of money to expense, but shorter program.

Good to see you out and about.

Ray

[Ron Hill]

The last time I looked, no one was running APBA but the members. So, I'll let them continue to run it.....but I plan to change things.

The 10 race or 15 race "AVERAGE" is designed for the the guy who really wants to be High Point but only wants to go to five or six races....You can get three races in, now, in APBA, at one boat race...So, I think, you could get six races in two days.....

Who's idea is this??? Someone's who want to be High Point and run very few races.

If a two day sanction, with testing only is the same price as two days of racing...then, only race one day, with testing on Saturday with your own insurance.....If our boats could run with PLEASURE BOATS we would not need glass water to run our TOYS...

Offroad Vehicles are used all the time on offroad...and when a race comes along they race....

Modified LeMan Starts, combined classes, one heat, more laps equal short day...

Suggested entry fee: Cost of race divided by number of drivers...everyone pays an equal entry fee, and you can run as many classes as you want.

[Mark75H]

Suggested entry fee: Cost of race divided by number of drivers...everyone pays an equla entry fee, and you can runa as many classes as you want.

Who would end up the the patrol boats? No one. We have a hard enough time getting patrol boats filled already. Here in the east the race directors sometimes have to threaten to cancel the race to get 6 people in the patrol boats for a set.

[Ron Hill]

You go to Knoot's, Disneyland or Magic Mountain....Or a GOLF COURSE...and it costs about a hundred dollars a person.....at least.

We go to FLORIDA for water polo...a four day pass is $25 per person to watch your kid play water polo....Now, realistically, water polo isn't that much different the kneeldown boat racing. The parents pay the bills, the kids play the game...most won't play in college and if they play in the Olympics they won't make millions because who knows any water polo players unless you play water polo????

REAL COSTS AREN'T WHY we don't have more people PLAYING BOAT RACE...

Lack of rewards
Lack of safe, easy to drive equipment
LacK of quality EQUIPMENT FOR SALE
Lack of the KNOWING THE PLAYING FIELD IS LEVEL......

My suggestion, play patrol boat people......Hmmm Seems Ross the Boss does that....

My wife and I go see Selene Dion...$150 per ticket, for and hour and half show...Well, there were 4,800 people there....Did $300 keep us a way???


Double the entry fees, combine classes...Clubs need to have the COURAGE TO CHARGE...

Why should a guy with one boat, pay less than a guy with four boats....Tell him to get four...Now, I could argue that the guy with four boats uses more time....therefore he should pay more...Why do they have usually have cheaper entry fees for the guy who runs five classes???

I just think, if I put on a race....I'd post ahead of time the race was costing $3,000 and I'm expecting 10 guys to come. Entry fee will be $300 per person...or per family!!!!

The problem is: THINGS MUST CHANGE!!!!

[mercguy]

Double the entry fees, combine classes...Clubs need to have the COURAGE TO CHARGE...

Why should a guy with one boat, pay less than a guy with four boats....Tell him to get four...Now, I could argue that the guy with four boats uses more time....therefore he should pay more...Why do they have usually have cheaper entry fees for the guy who runs five classes???



OUCH, if you doubled the entree fees, I would have to pay over $600 to race each time, since I do race 4, sometimes 5 classes and that would keep me OUT OF RACING!! How are you figuring the gut that races 4/5 boats has cheaper entree fees??? Let's see: 1st class $45, 2nd $35, 3rd $25 4th and on $25, now add that up x2 = $310 for 5classes (which is usually what I pay each time I race for the weekend), 1 class = $90.............now, how do you do your math teach??? :confused:

also, I do race for points, but also race AS MANY races as I possibly can.......WHY, cause I love racin' and the people involved!!!!!! ;)

[bill boyes]

The last time I looked, no one was running APBA but the members. So, I'll let them continue to run it.....but I plan to change things.

The 10 race or 15 race "AVERAGE" is designed for the the guy who really wants to be High Point but only wants to go to five or six races....You can get three races in, now, in APBA, at one boat race...So, I think, you could get six races in two days.....

Who's idea is this??? Someone's who want to be High Point and run very few races.

If a two day sanction, with testing only is the same price as two days of racing...then, only race one day, with testing on Saturday with your own insurance.....If our boats could run with PLEASURE BOATS we would not need glass water to run our TOYS...

Offroad Vehicles are used all the time on offroad...and when a race comes along they race....

Modified LeMan Starts, combined classes, one heat, more laps equal short day...

Suggested entry fee: Cost of race divided by number of drivers...everyone pays an equal entry fee, and you can run as many classes as you want.RON, Modified LaMans Start? what is that? tell you what Running a race i can run 3 heats off with a clock start vs a OPC Laman start which is a beach start. Take a min of 25 minutes to get the boats launched and lined up and started. A beach start is nothing but a BIG time waster and makes the day longer for the workers who make it happen.
So what do you combine? Read your rule book.

[rossdbos]

O.K. Time to chime in:
Bill, Ron and all- We can run all the classes that currently are on the schedules by working in conjunction with the racers provided they work with us:
Item # 1.) Pre-registration. (it's very simple so let's not make it complex!)
If the racers comply with the clubs request/mandate and pre-register (with their money) it alllows the club(s) the necessary pre-race set up rather than a guesstimate on which classes will have enough boats and which classes need eliminations thus losing valuable time with long and drawn out driver's meetings, etc.. Getting the racers to comply with this is an ongoing battle that still mystifies me. I don't know if you realize but boat racing though one of the oldest institutions still doesn't require pre-registration at most event (unless you get to the series level). ad- It is also the only form of motorized racing that doesn't mandate pre-registration at all events or for the year.

Item # 2.) Schedules. See pre-registration in item # 1 and set a realistic schedule and enforce the racers to be ready and in the water turned around at least 1 heat prior to their heat makes all the difference in the world. If you wait until the last minute to put your boat in the water, back it down the ramp, etc. you delay the schedule. All racers should have a copy of the schedule (with any changes) posted at his/her pits, watch and be aware of the class preceeding them and LISTEN to all announcements from the judges stand. If a racer has a question they should grab their pit manager (who should have a radio) and get their questions asked.

Item # 3.) Race Set up: Having a pre-race meeting with staff/officials etc. is paramount to making sure the race get's going on-time. Lay out the "game plan" and make sure all set up boats and volunteers are in position either the day before (if allowed) or morning of the event. Waiting until driver's meeting to set the course means delayed starts.

Item #4.) Manpower/officials/volunteers: Make sure there is enough and some extra to insure that if someone can't make it the race will still go on with no delays. Make sure ambulance, rescue etc. are on-site at least 1/2 to 1 hour prior to start.

The nonsense about too many classes, Le Mans starts, etc. is just that. I have personally been able to run 40 heats/day and still finish by 5:00 p.m. Granted there were no incidents or weather but those are two of the many variables that no club can control.

The racer needs to realize their part and do it so the club/promoters can start on time, set a realistic schedule and not have to stress their workers.
It's time to start working hand in hand rather than take a "management vs. labor" stance. The racer and the club/promoters are intertwined neither can succeed without each other. For the club/promoter it's real easy, lose too much money, lose race sites and have racers constantly complain the club will end up going away. For the Racer, pre-register, set up and be ready long before your class is called to the line.

I alway's have post race meetings to elaborate on what we can do better to serve both the racer and our staff. We know what we did right now how can we change or fix what we did wrong or need to do better.
Let's see if being prepared on both sides and working together towards a common goal can't make racing the best it can be at whatever level.
Just my $.02, off the soap box for now.
Ross :cool:

[mercguy]

I do not think that it would take much of any time to have a Lemans start for the outboarders and could reduce some time. I would like to try a beach start in, lets say, CSH or something.......it might be fun!!!!! Isn't that what racing is all about......fun???? ;)

[David Mason]

Well Folks, I think one organization listened to the complaints. NBRA combined classes until they had the schedule down to manageable. At the NBRA Nationals there WAS testing every day before racing started, and again after racing finished if time permitted. So lets see here, testing began at 9:00 am ended at 11:00 am, we had a drivers meeting, we went racing at noon. We had to be off the water by 5:00 pm.

Ron, I suggest you order up an NBRA rulebook to get all the class combinations, I never heard anyone complain about the combinations during the Nationals, so it must be working.

Maybe APBA could learn a thing or two from them if they would only listen and act upon what they learned. I am not saying any one organization is better than the other, I race boats, not politics.

[Ron Hill]

Thanks, DAVE....

I'm mad I missed the Nationals...How did Bryan Thrope do? Where are the results???

I just seems to me, it is a NEED for testing...before you race. We'll have a new boat to run this weekend??? So, to test, we need to take Friday off work???? It is NICE being rich, but?????

I BELIEVE that combining classes can work...drivers can figure out how not to run over each other...My 16 year old is going to a 20 and under event....Now, who will win??? The 20 year olds...but the 16's will come away better players and smarter...

My 16 has already learned that OLD KIDS play FAIRER......(NO CHEAP STUFF, JUST WATER POLO)...Well, as you learn the sport of Boat Racing...I feel, you learn the the WINNERS don't pull cheap shots...Mixing classes, is a winner.

Best race I ever had, was will with Bill Jack Rucker Sr. He had a three holer on a DeSilva...I had a DU...I was winning my class and he was winning his class...but BE DAMNED if he was going to beat ME...He felt the same...Well, it was rough and that three holer came off the corners like a ROCKET...but my DU would "air out" and I could get by him by the corner...I'd look over at Old Billy Jack and his throttle was wide, So I knew he wasn't "THROWING OFF"...but he'd get me coming out of the corner...we went hard for five laps....Neither of us felt out of control...we were "JUST RACING"...Seems I beat him the first heat and he had me "SACKED" the second when the three holer went to two holes...

Not sure, if the fans, if there were any, cared that I had a DU and Rucker had a E MOD....They saw a "RACE"...as we actually lapped a few of the other boats, which caused us to weave in and out of traffic...

I miss that SOB...If you beat Bill Jack Rucker, Sr., you knew you'd beaten someone GOOD!!!!

[David Mason]

Results for the NBRA are under another thread. But Bryan did wll, he spanked them in CH. His EH ran pretty well to.

[kws]

i think i will wait to form an opinion on this on for a while. but i have a couple of questions
1 if combined do we really want say J's (OUR KIDS) on the water with A's?
or do you think say A's & B's then C's &D's same boat style in the same heat?

the way i see it, there is so many people that run many classes that the actual boat count for the race weekend would have to fall. - boat count = - intree fees .
now if i remember what my insurance man told me if im in my boat practicing and its not racing then im covered if i am in a race i am not why are we paying for site insurance on a non race day ie for practice?

[David Mason]

NBRA and all other organizations has a place for the youngsters, in NBRA it is called Novice. In AOF I think it is the same. In APBA it is J. NBRA is I believe an 80 Yamata restricted down to a safer speed for the kids.

KWS, as far as insurance goes it is very easy to find cheap reasonable coverage on an individual basis to cover yourself while racing. In my opinion we don't need to pay high premiums and have a weekend of racing cost over $3000.00. We lower that, put on a better program to draw crowds, and you draw sponsorship funds to offset the costs. So less entry fee funds won't hurt.

NBRA seems to be doing something right, they keep getting a ton of money for race sponsorship. The Nationals had $5000.00 prize money. A sponsor called up while we were racing and asked if it would be possible for them to put up $3500.00 prize money at a race in I think Shelbyville IL. I don't think they turned down the offer. :D

[AOFOffice]

The thing about insurance still bothers me. In AOF you can combine any class you want. And it costs $200 for 2 million of spectator insurance. That is it. Long itme policy instituted and created by Dudley Malone and Ron Whittaker. Wait and see, many will come on here and say that insurance is no good.....wait...it will happen..... it is not about insurance, the organization, the classes or the combinations. It is about the clout. APBA has more clout because we are ignorant and don't know a good deal when it is put in front of us. Always looking for the thing that is right in front of us...too bad.

[David Mason]

I am not understanding your post Connie. Are you taking a stand in one organization ?

Clout..... yes, it seems APBA has more, but look who pays the money back to the racers..... I hope someday all three Organizations will finally stop the war.

[AOFOffice]

Hi Dave,
This is Connie. That post wasn’t me. All officers in AOF are allowed and encouraged to use AOFOffice to post AOF business. Not sure who did that. I have been out of town without a computer for several days, and just catching up. Read my next post:
PS. I have gotten blamed for a lot of emails that came from someone else over the years because of these shared screen names.. I don’t mind except when someone signs my name! lol. Oh, well, good thing I’m a survivor. (My personal posts come from; YankeeRacing).
Connie

[AOFOffice]

My thoughts on Kneeldown racing only:
I believe we place too much emphasis on our national organization for getting things done on a local level. Also too much blame when things don’t go as we like. Our national organizations should provide “TOOLS” for our club/series to use as needed. Just because APBA stock, mod, pro has 98 classes, doesn’t mean any club has to put on 98 classes. Just because AOF includes pro, and drags. in their national organization, does not mean that any club cannot race just modified classes. Each club/series needs to take the tools given and build what is best for their region/area, availability of water, interests. Each club/series also need the people to make them successful. That doesn’t even need to be said. However, when we criticize, we tend to say, “APBA” put on a bad race, or “AOF” called me for jumping the gun when I didn’t A distinction always needs to be made between “club” activity and national responsibility. Save your sport by making YOUR club/series a better one!
All of the racing organizations have a place.
APBA is and always will be number one. That is a fact. They have a reputation and loyal members and the organizational level to stay number one.
NBRA has done some good things in combining classes and putting on a show. In essence, I feel that they have become a series such as the USTS. Their downfall as a national organizations is their strict limits. As a “series” they are on the right track and because of hard working members, they are becoming very successful at what they do.
AOF is an organization that provides inexpensive racing, and the propensity to allow a member club to do it “their way,”.
I came back as Executive Director of AOF this year after being gone for 4 years. (Yes, contrary to what people thought, I was gone!) I helped out a little with Ed Hearn in Stock Outboard, and my family has been racing the best series in the world, USTS.
Now, with the AOF hat on, I have to admit that while I was gone, some brilliant people made some very wise decisions concerning AOF and the sport. As I study the new AOF rulebook and format, I sure wish I had had something to do with it. All of the answers are there! It is just too bad that more of us cannot or will not use the organization for its new purpose.
AOF has resigned itself to the fact that they will never be number one. They have also resigned themselves to not being a “series” but a national organization who can provide good “TOOLS” to race how you want with what you want at affordable prices.
A voluntary step up chart has been implemented, for example, that allows a club to basically combine anything that they need to combine and still keep competition exciting. AOF has made it simple for a series type racing or a "run what you brung" race and everyone still gets national points.
AOF has now proven that their insurance is just fine for what it is needed for. Does it have the medical coverage that APBA has? No. One drawback, but at $200 a week end for the coverage for spectator liability, it gets the job done, and unlike NBRA there is a medical fund supplement for extra coverage, or for anyone who is dumb enough to race without insurance.
As far as I am concerned, AOF has all the “TOOLS” to put on any kind of show or series, fun event, or grass roots get together you want at a reasonable price, with national recognition. It seems that all of the complaints, ideas, and solutions about our racing problems have been implemented in AOF! BUT KNOW ONE KNOWS ABOUT THEM! What a shame for the brilliant people who made the changes (while I was gone) to not have publicized them!
Now, is there room for 3 organizations in kneeldown racing? I don’t think so, not with the wildcat or independent clubs who are also getting some of the action.
My suggestion is this:
APBA is used as it is now. Good classic racing that we all know and enjoy, at a cost of about $3000 for a week end of racing (app).
AOF is used for staging races when clubs cannot afford APBA. (New sites, low turnouts), or just because they want to because it makes good sense, at a cost of about $300 per week end for sanction and insurance.
NBRA recognizes itself a a specialty racing series. (Nothing wrong with this and certainly is conducive to good sponsorship and shows). I’m guessing the cost per week end of racing to be about $1500?

AOF could fold right now, and then there would only be 2 kneeldown national organizations. However, what would be lost is still the “affordable” national organization in which you can race how and what you want. Is that the answer? If it is then it is a shame becuse then the insurance policy that has been in place for years is also lost. (Stays with AOF as a non profit organization). No one will ever get prices like that again if it is lost because it was built from years of proven safe racing).
Maybe the answer is mutual respect and the fact that we all recognize what we have to contribute and what our strengths and weaknesses are and more importantly, what our place is in saving our sport.
AOF is a rich organization because of low overhead. This year we have spent a lot of money trying to help out areas and clubs and build racing. We are doing our part in saving our sport. However, we can’t continue without support from clubs and series who need AOF and just don’t know it, or worse, won’t use us because of what others might think. With my AOF hat on, I truly believe AOF has all of the answers. Might sound snobbish, but it wasn’t me who made AOF this way. It was people who knew we had a sport to save and implemented TOOLS to get it done.
Well, you got $2 worth out of me. I have been away from the computer for a week, so just humor me a little as I get carried away.
Any questions can be asked here or you can email me at:
executivedirector@aofraces.com
Connie

[Mark75H]

Connie I don't think it is such a good idea to let several unnamed people use this single membership. YOU remain responisble for posts made with this membership and YOU are the one who be censured if one of THEM messes up on BRF.


Contact me privately by email or phone to get the password changed

[AOFOffice]

Thank you Sam for the suggestion. I will contact you. I found out who posted and it was meant to be serious. the person just did not express themselves very well.
You would think I would have learned my lesson about shared email addresses and such.
This is a true story. When I left AOF in 1999 AOF had an email:
"RaceAOF" that was used by myself and all of the officers for years. Everyone in the country new how to get on that email address. The passord was, "connie". How dumb was that?
Seems as if people were getting email messages and things being posted that supposedly I had written. Since I had retired, I was not on the computer at all for a while. When I came back on, I was flabergasted. My goodness, I was writing all kinds of nasty little notes, or so it seemed.
I had to get a lawyer. We were able to trace the phone number that the posts came from, but here is the catch...If I was to prosecute it had to be done through my county. Well, my county is a little farming comunity in rural Iowa. (25 miles to nearest McDonald's). There were no county laws about such infractions because who would ever had thunk it woulda happened anyway. Well, I got the laws changed. Not me, but I worked with the government and got something in place. It took over two years and statute of limitations ran out on prosecuting the perpetrator.
I do know that the preson who sent the nasty messages knows I know and that makes it better. I can't understand why that person won't talk to me now though. Must feel guilty.
Thanks for reminding me, Sam, about how vulnerable we are in this geat new world of communication.
Sure wish we could trust our friends like we could in the old days.
Connie Payn

[kws]

Connie you can still trust your friends... its just harder to tell who your friends really are ;) (doesnt help much tho does it?)

Im from a small town in central il. pretty much NO ONE has heard of kneelers .or if they have its that thing their grandfather used to go watch ect. I have talked to a few places and organazations to try to get an APBA race sponored when i told them what the insurance would cost them thru apba to run races they havent ever seen or heard of , they loose interest in a hurry .....
maybe i need to check out AOF :)

[AOFOffice]

that is exactly what I am talking about. Can't put on an APBA race because the site is new and not enough sponsorship? Then let AOF help. This year we were even offering some free santions and insurance. Most clubs across the country recieved this proposal from AOF. Apparantly some of the powers to be did not relay messages to their members (AOF not cool enough or something). AOF was willing to PAY a club to put on races!!! We have a sport to save!!!
Get a site, put on an AOF race, build the site, and then if you want, change it over to APBA.
Wouldn't that help? Gas is getting expensive. We will get more people interested in our sport if we can keep them racing close to home. (Unless they are running a super series such as USTS, but not everyone can do that). We have to all work together and accept and nourish our differences.
I will add that AOF can help keep sites also. Unfortunately, I talked to Tad and Bill about Rock Falls too late. I guess they did not know early in the year that their club had recieved the offer from AOF to help with races that might need them. Maybe next year we can do something to give the Rock Falls race a boost.
KWS, give me an email at:
executivedirector@aofraces.com
and we can discuss.
Connie

[AOFOffice]

Good advice about the friends. Fortunately, I have been in the boat racing buisiness for over 50 years and MOST of my boat racing friends are the best!

[David Mason]

Connie,

There is very affordable insurance for any racer who wants to be covered medically, my friend has a policy that covers him and his family from any injury while racing. I will have to ask him if it has spectator liablities. Anyone can have the coverage, I think he told me it costs him like 20 bucks a month. I will find out more and if my memory is still right. I do remember he wrote them a letter asking them to indicat that the policy specifically covers "BOAT RACING" And they replied yes.

Sorry, been boat racing all weekend.