What 2 stroke oil yall runnin?

[biggdave92]

I've always used yamalube but i'm looking for something better. What's everyone runnin?

[David_L6]

Depends on what I'm running it in. I normally used Klotz R50 in my hydros although I have run Pennzoil. I normally use Pennzoil in my other boats.

[Tim Chance]

I run Maxima 927, but I also burn alcohol in my engines.

[Jeff Akers]

Motul 800 2T

[Binger]

Lucas

[Mark75H]

I use TCW-3 oil in my pleasure motor, but Klotz Techniplate with Castor in my race motor ... because it smells nice

[sheuninck]

http://www.mercurymarine.com/_media/pdfs/productbrochures/Rejuvenate.pdf

[onerew1]

Alisyn in race motor. Klotz R-50 in everything else. REW

[jerry book]

Amsoil Dominator

[88workcar]

The cheapest "Good" oil I can find Klotz Techniplate, it's cheaper than quicksilver and Yamalube.

[Yellowjacket]

This is a pretty interesting subject since oil has changed so much from when most all 2 cycle oil was intended for outboards since that was the biggest market. I found this discussion on another board and thought it would be appropriate. Sorry for the long post but there's a lot of new information when it comes to oils and the oils themselves are evolving (witness the new Mercury Rejuvenate that just came out).

The older oils had American Petroleum Institute (API) rating of "TC". The Boating Industry Association (BIA) rating of "TC-W", or the National Marine Manufacturers Association (NMMA) rating of "TC-W II." and these oils were originally developed for outboard engines, however, motorcyclists that used these oils found that their air cooled engines ran the best on the oldest API TC oils. These API TC formulas contained a higher level of bright stock 150, a high density petroleum base stock with a consistency similar to honey, that gave the best protection against piston seizure and bearing failure. To prevent carbon buildup in the piston ring grooves, these TC oils used metal based detergents that were very effective in air cooled motorcycle engines but caused problems in outboard engines when operated at long periods of time at one throttle setting. A whisker-like bridge could form across the sparkplug gap to permanently foul a cylinder under these conditions while the motorcyclist operating his engine at a constantly changing throttle setting never encountered this problem.

When the BIA developed the TC-W rating, they excluded the use of these metal-based detergents in favor of organic detergents to eliminate this problem in outboard engines. These TC-W oils (two-cycle, water cooled) also contained lighter base oils without the bright stock 150. The thought being that since outboards ran cooler they didn't need the thicker base stock. For engines operating in the 4,000 rpm to 5,000 rpm range, the absence of the bright stock 150 had no affect on piston and bearing life. However, off-road motorcyclists testing these new TC-W oils were disappointed with the bearing life of their engines operating at 10,000 - 11,000 rpm and quickly returned to using the TC oils.

The need for a clean two-stroke outboard oil was recognized when piston ring groove carbonization was seen as a primary cause for engine failure and a new formula designated TC-W II was developed. While this oil was significantly better for outboard use and was phosphate free, it still was not the optimum two-stroke oil for engines operating above 8,000 rpm. The phosphate free mandate was from a concern raised by environmentalists that realized that outboard engine use could permanently pollute fresh waterways. Recently, efforts to develop an even cleaner outboard oil have produced the latest NMMA TC-W3 and this oil, although containing no bright stock 150, has produced better levels of lubricity and cleanliness in piston ring groove areas, however, it is still not nearly as good as an oil for high rpm applications.

The BIA evolved into the National Marine Manufacturers Association (NMMA) which works closely with the outboard manufacturers. the NMMA mandated that all oils would contain non-metallic detergent additives, no phosphorus or phosphates, if they were to have the approval of the NMMA and the outboard engine manufacturers agreed to recommend only the NMMA approved oils. This is a big problem for higher revving engines. Ring sticking, port depoists and low temperature oil flow have been problems with TC-W3 oils.

Also, many marine dealers were concerned about the flammability and flash point of out board oils. Since larger engines were now consuming huge amounts of oil they had to stock several hundred cases of oil per season. This amount of oil stored in one location had alerted the fire marshals and insurance companies attention and a solution to this risk was addressed by the NMMA. Higher flash point oil with a flash point over 200 deg. F was what they needed to achieve a category 3B fluid rating, just enough to avoid the hazardous storage and shipping restrictions they were facing with all other two cycle oils. Oil manufacturers were forced to use TC-W3 additives or blends with high flash solvents if they were allowed to keep the NMMA license. The high flash solvents caused all sorts of unburned oil problems in engines.The combination of non-metallic/non-phosphate detergents and high flash solvents in the new TC-W 3 oils later caused some severe ring sticking in many engines and Yamaha actually required owners to use a 'ring-free' fuel additive to maintain their warranty, a symptom of being forced by the NMMA to recommend the new oils.

In Japan, engine manufacturers have developed a series of strenuous engine tests that can identify poor quality oils if they don’t measure up in performance. This became the JASO classification system. (Japanese automobile standards organization).

The tests include a detergency test, lubricity test, initial torque test, exhaust smoke test and exhaust blocking test.

JASO FA - Original spec established regulating lubricity, detergency, initial torque, exhaust smoke and exhaust system blocking.
JASO FB - Increased lubricity, detergency, exhaust smoke and exhaust system blocking requirements over FA.
JASO FC - Lubricity and initial torque requirements same as FB, however far higher detergency, exhaust smoke and exhaust system blocking requirements over FB.
JASO FD - Same as FC with far higher detergency requirement

In Europe, European two-cycle engine manufacturers were simultaneously working on two-cycle oil tests. They found that European two-stroke high performance engines needed an oil with a better detergency and higher temperature performance than the best JASO "FC" oils. In April, 1997, they published their ISO global standards for two-stroke oils with two quality level categories: ISO-L-EGB and ISO-L-EGC. The ISO-L-EGB aligns closely with JASO "FB" and the ISO-L-EGC aligns closely with JASO "FC". Then, they developed the "GD" detergency test to run hotter and longer (3 hours vs. 1 hour) than the JASO test. It didn’t take long for oil manufacturers to develop oil formulations that pass this new quality test, and most of them involve using synthetic base oils.

The problem with some synthetic basestocks (ester especially, which Amsoil, Klotz, and Redline use), is that they are hygroscopic (they absorb water)...which creates corrosion issues. Some combat this with additional additives, with varying success. Rust films on iron liners and crank wheels during a 2 week storage period have been common unless engines were fogged after shutdown.

Oils like Klotz R-50, Amsoil Dominator, and Redline Racing should only be used in racing situations (long WOT runs and frequent engine tear downs). Redline and Klotz specifically state this in their product descriptions. Racing oils have very high flash points and more anti-wear additives, so they can cause deposit and sludge issues, more smoke, and more pollutants released into the water. The harder you run them the less deposits they build up, but they are by no means clean burning. I'd also highly recommend fogging with a conventional oil after each use to address the corrosion issue.

Bottom line is that a JASO FD oil is really good stuff. It has a lot better lubricity and keeps the engine a lot cleaner than TC-W3 oils. It's a lot better at high RPM (something we need badly). You shouldn't need to use a high oil ratio with these oils, but if you do use more oil they aren't going to carbon up nearly as much as the older oils or a TC-W3 oil. FD rated oils are recommended for high rpm air cooled engines, but don't build up deposits like the old TC oils in cooler running outboards. You should at the very least be looking at an FC rated oil for any serious high rpm application.

The Quicksilver Rejuvenate is an JASO FD rated oil that was developed for the Mercury heavy fuel Optimax, that was burning jet fuel and needed better lubricity and better detergent additives than conventional oils. The heavy fuel didn't evaporate as much during injection and a lot more fuel was getting on the cylinder walls. This caused piston and ring problems so an oil with better lubricity was required to fix the issues, so this oil has really good lubricity. Much better stuff than any TC-W3 oil.

I'm also looking at the Schaffer racing oil, here is a link. This stuff is an FD oil and also has a moly additive that I like and also says that it has good corrosion protection, so I plan on trying it next season...

http://www.schaefferoil.com/cmss_files/attachmentlibrary/9006%20Logo.pdf

Not sure what oil ratio I should be running with these oils on a older engine at high rpm, but I will run a lot of oil and keep an eye on the deposits.

[Mark Poole]

All boat racers will pick their best weapon (in this case oil) for what works best for them. I will have to tell ya, I have used Amsoil 100:1 in a LOT of recreational outboards over the years with no problems. I have a 30 Johnson that has been fed this oil for 22 years and it is still running strong. This engine gets used year round and I cannot even begin to think of how many hours are on it. On this subject....it is not about which one is best but what works best for you. Would I use anything else? Why would I, it has never let me down.

[Mark75H]

The problem with some synthetic basestocks (ester especially, which Amsoil, Klotz, and Redline use), is that they are hygroscopic (they absorb water)...which creates corrosion issues. Some combat this with additional additives, with varying success. Rust films on iron liners and crank wheels during a 2 week storage period have been common unless engines were fogged after shutdown.

Oils like Klotz R-50, Amsoil Dominator, and Redline Racing should only be used in racing situations (long WOT runs and frequent engine tear downs). Redline and Klotz specifically state this in their product descriptions. Racing oils have very high flash points and more anti-wear additives, so they can cause deposit and sludge issues, more smoke, and more pollutants released into the water. The harder you run them the less deposits they build up, but they are by no means clean burning. I'd also highly recommend fogging with a conventional oil after each use to address the corrosion issue....
Not sure what oil ratio I should be running with these oils on a older engine at high rpm, but I will run a lot of oil and keep an eye on the deposits.

I don't know about the other synthetic makers, but I'm pretty sure Klotz sells synthetic with different bases. For a while R-50 was marked "Do Not Use with Alcohol" and now there is no such warning on R-50. Their Techinplate oil has always been compatible with alcohol and alcohol blend fuels.

Can you address the different hydroscopic tendencies of the various bases and which oil brands are using each?

Polyester (POE)

Alkyl benzene (AB)

Polyglycols

Dibasic acid ester

Silicone

Silicate ester


Also, can you address ACES IV and their claim that it is a lubricant and dramatic octane improver, esp for 2 stroke use?

Another question about hydroscopic oils ... in HVAC hydroscopic oils are always sold in metal containers and regular oils in plastic. If moisture is a concern, won't we see the same packaging (regardless of racing/non racing application) or are the oils sold as 2 stroke oil sufficiently diluted with other ingredients that they are stable unless directly exposed to air?


I have seen the moisture problem with Klotz Super Techniplate.

[Yellowjacket]

As I said in the first paragraph, I found this discussion on another board, I didn't write it, and I'm not a lubrication engineer so I can't intelligently discuss the different synthetic oil base stocks and which are hydroscopic or not.

Also many of the high performance oils on the market don't release their base stock information, so it's hard to figure out what is in there. For instance on the Klotz web site there isn't any mention of what stock is used for R50. It isn't in the oil spec sheet or in the MSDS sheets either, they just say it's a "pure synthetic", which is like saying it didn't come out of the ground, but that's about all they are saying.

I went to the Klotz web site and the R50 is Not alcohol compatible (their bold type, not mine). Maybe it isn't on the bottle, but they for sure don't recommend it for use with alcohol. Here is a link to the page I went to.

http://www.klotzlube.com/proddetail.asp?prod=KL%2D104%5FQuart&cat=6

I also looked at the R50 tech sheet and it stated it was ok for personal watercraft, snowmobiles and watercooled ATV's, but there was no mention of outboards. No prohibition, but no recommendation either. I did happen to see that their regular 50:1 techniplate is TC-W3, JSAO FD and ISO-EGD rated and is recommended for outboards. Based on the ratings it's a pretty good oil. It was rated for a film strength of 8, not quite as good as the R50 (rated at at 10), so it clearly gave up some lubricity compared to the higher temp oil.

I'm certainly not slamming synthetics, there are plenty of very good oils (like the Amsoil 100:1 outboad) that will serve just fine in a stock motor at reasonable RPM's, and all synthetics don't absorb water, so the corrosion issue isn't with all of them, it's just that we have to be careful or you can end up with a bucket of rust.

I think what we are looking for here is something that will provide better lubrication at high rpm's in stock or modified motors and at the low block and head tempertures that we see in outboards. The Amsoil site has a good 2 cycle oil application chart that shows which of their oils work in what applicatoins. Some of the JSAO FD oils aren't recommended for outboards at all, but are recommended for air cooled and other high temp motors. This indicates that the oil needs higher temperatures to work and isn't going to provide good lubrication where we need it, in a cool block. So just picking an oil because it is JSAO FD rated may not be a good idea.

Picking an oil that is rated as only TC-W3 and doesn't have any of the higher ratings is probably not a good idea either. TC-W3 oils don't have the capability to run at high speeds and don't have the wear properties we need, but they do have the low temperature capability so it isn't that we don't want TC-W3 rating, we just need to be looking for more. There are oils that have both ratings (like the Klotz 50:1 techinplate) and that is probably more like what we are looking for, the Qucksilver Rejuvenate also being one that looks very good to me since it has both ratings.

I was not familiar with the ACES IV product. It's interesting, but I've got to understand what the mechanisim is that produces the lower wear before I'm sold on it. It looks like it might be something that would reduce bore wear and that's not bad, but they say that the properties are released during combustion, so it isn't going to help the bearings that are what goes bad on stock engines that are run at high rpm's. Might help with outboard bore and scuffing around the exhaust ports, since they get hot and have lubrication problems in that area. They have some interesting testamonials and some test data that says bore wear was drastically reduced. If it helped an engine stay "fresh" longer that would be a good thing.

On the other side, are the exhaust ports of a racing outboard any cooler than those of an air cooled motor? The answer is probably not. Piston scuffing, and ring sticking are things we see regularly in racing outboard despite the cooler cylinder walls, so maybe when we are running flat out we need an oil that is more like a air cooled 2 cycle oil to keep those problems at bay. The Amsoil chart seems to agree with that idea, but they are recommending lots of teardowns to address the deposit issue.

Finally, we tend to use a lot more oil in our engines to help make it live at higher speed, and build the motors so that the bearings won't go south in a few hours. It is very likely that you can make up to some extent for a lack of lubricity by using more oil, and oil is cheap. I don't think anybody is running a 45SS at 100:1 and racing it that way, not for long anyway. At the same time you would like to not have the engine gum up or foul plugs all the time just because you are running a 5:1 mix just to keep the engine alive at the rpm's you want to run. If some of these oils let you run a bit less oil, or have the ability to run a lot cleaner by having the detergents to keep the engine a lot cleaner then that's probably a good thing.

As we talk experience we perhaps should mention the mixes we are using. Saying that we used brand x and "worked good for me" doesn't tell you much unless you know how much of it was being used and in what engine at what rpm, and when you tore it down it looked nice and clean or it was a smudge pot inside...

There's lots of things to think about and some shared experience goes a long way to keeping everybody running and that's good for the sport.

[Binger]

Lucas has there specs and msds sheets on there site www.lucasoil.com

[hydroplay]

I think you'll like the Schaeffer synthetic oil. We've used a number of their products with good success. We don't see other boats with Schaeffer stickers on them or others who are even aware of it. Our local rep is a cool guy and always gives us a case or two for each championship, high point or record my kid set. He deals more with race cars and wants to give us gear oil but doesn't understand how we can do an entire year with only 3 quarts of oil. He doesn't relate to the couple ounces in a J/A OMC gearcase compared to a car tranny.

[DuckLn]

What catagory does yamalube fall into?

[Fastjeff57]

The expensive one! (Just kidding.)

Jeff

[Yellowjacket]

We were running a small two stroke engine that had direct injection on heavy fuel (JP-5). Understand that to do that we had to reduce the compression ratio and alter the ignition and fuel injection curves to run a fuel with low octane. We had planned to use the Mercury "Rejuvenate" oil since we thought that was the same oil that Mercury developed for their heavy fuel engine program.

I spoke with the brand manager at Mercury marine and was told that "Rejuvenate" isn't exactly the same oil as their "Multi-Fuel" 2 stroke oil and that the Multi-Fuel oil had more detergent in it and this would be better for our application. In researching it I found that the "Multi-Fuel" (Mercury P/N: 92-858092A01) oil is also only available in two 5 gallon containers (you gotta buy 10 gallons) at a time and you're gonna spend about $300 for that much oil (or you can buy a 55 gallon drum for a lot more). I also found it interesting that this oil is the recommended oil for the Optimax 200XS ROS engine that is used for offshore and drag racing. Bottom line being that this sounds pretty much like "the good stuff" but it's not cheap or easy to get.

Due to limited availability we used the Rejuvenate in our program and I'll update when we do a teardown, but for now we haven't stuck anything but I suspect that we will convert over to the Multi-Fuel oil soon.

Finally, the "Rejuvenate" is going to be discontinued. While it burns a lot cleaner than normal oils and really works on reducing the carbon buildup in engines, there hasn't been a huge rush to buy it. The good news is that it will likely be rebranded as a high performance/racing oil since it is also really good in terms of lubricity, so not only will you be able to protect your engine from damage, but it will run a lot cleaner too.

[Tim Kurcz]

This thread offers great reading, and I'm certrain there are terabytes more data available, but a few tech questions should be addressed to make oil purchase and mix ration decisions:

1) For all the various oils claimed performance presented; at what mix ratio(s) and operating conditions was the data derived?
2) What is the relationship between mix ratio and lubricity? With what type of fuel? 100LL Avgas which is loaded with lead, 93 Automotive unleaded? Methanol?
3) Why do factories test at 16:1 or 18:1 (as reported on BRF elsewhere), when most outboard oils are rated at 50:1?
4) What effect does higher or lower base oil viscosity have on power output and/or durability?
5) What affect does mix ratio have on power output? (also reported elsewhere on BRF)

Now a few functional questions:

6) How many of you have actually worn out a piston, cylinder wall, or bearing directly attributable to lubrication failure?
7) How many have actually fouled a spark plug or stuck rings directly attributable to oil selection?
8) If you're burning 10:1 mix ratio, does the quality of oil really make a difference?
9) Is it possible to prove the differences in oil performance lakeside?
10) If you only run your race motor 10 hours/year (generous), how many years racing does it take to stick a ring or clog a port attributable to oil selection?

For the record, my engines run 10:1 (for racing) or 16:1 (laking) name brand TC-W3 oils in 100LL Avgas at speeds up to 8500 RPM with no apparent problems. How can this be?

Tim

[dart]

well since yesterday i have changed from amsoil saber out board to now " redline Race synthetic oil "
looking forward to trying this new oil out sunday!!

[Yellowjacket]

This thread offers great reading, and I'm certrain there are terabytes more data available, but a few tech questions should be addressed to make oil purchase and mix ration decisions:

1) For all the various oils claimed performance presented; at what mix ratio(s) and operating conditions was the data derived?
2) What is the relationship between mix ratio and lubricity? With what type of fuel? 100LL Avgas which is loaded with lead, 93 Automotive unleaded? Methanol?
3) Why do factories test at 16:1 or 18:1 (as reported on BRF elsewhere), when most outboard oils are rated at 50:1?
4) What effect does higher or lower base oil viscosity have on power output and/or durability?
5) What affect does mix ratio have on power output? (also reported elsewhere on BRF)

Now a few functional questions:

6) How many of you have actually worn out a piston, cylinder wall, or bearing directly attributable to lubrication failure?
7) How many have actually fouled a spark plug or stuck rings directly attributable to oil selection?
8) If you're burning 10:1 mix ratio, does the quality of oil really make a difference?
9) Is it possible to prove the differences in oil performance lakeside?
10) If you only run your race motor 10 hours/year (generous), how many years racing does it take to stick a ring or clog a port attributable to oil selection?

For the record, my engines run 10:1 (for racing) or 16:1 (laking) name brand TC-W3 oils in 100LL Avgas at speeds up to 8500 RPM with no apparent problems. How can this be?

Tim

I think all of these are great questions and putting data points together is great. As you said, you have to put the ratio together with the oil. Some oils don't provide as much lubricity, but you can increase the mix ratio and make up for it in large part. If you use more oil you are reducing the octane of your fuel and are more susceptible to detonation. If you run higher octane fuel you can get back sufficient octane to prevent detonation. But we also know that running lots of oil can foul plugs, so then do we put in a higher heat range plug, and then are you courting detonation with the hotter plug??? It's a thermodynamic rubix cube, if you twist it one way it can work, or if you twist it another way you can get to the same place. Adding more data is the way to figure out what works or doesn't, and the more data is shared, the more we all learn.

I didn't know that the factories tested at 16:1 or 18:1. That's news to me, but that tells you a lot about where the engines run best. I'd guess, and it's only a guess, that more oil provides better ring sealing and more power, up to a point, and that may be somewhere in the 16:1 to 18:1 range, but they are also running pump gas, and they don't want to be constantly changing plugs, so there could be some compromise in what they use for testing.

Base oil viscosity makes a big difference in bearing and ring wear as well as sealing, but can be offset somewhat with higher oil ratios. Since we are diluting the heck out of the oil with fuel the amount of oil can make a big difference if the ratio is drastically increased.

I think that most racers tend to flood the engine with oil because oil is cheap and parts are expensive, and in this game engine teardowns are frequent, so ratios like 10:1 are common. That doesn't mean that it's the best way to do it, but these engines have been around for a long time and there's a lot of experience that was put into them and folks found out the hard way what works and what didn't.

Typical racers are doing teardown so frequently that I don't think rings are going to load up with deposits, or ports are going to be clogged like you see in a engine used on a pontoon boat. I just got a Merc 500 powerhead off of a pontoon boat and the exhaust pipe in the the bottom pan was more than half clogged with carbon, and when I take the exhaust cover off I expect it to be full of crap too. The previous owner probably mixed extra oil in the engine "to keep it from wearing out" and I'm guessing that he wasn't doing the engine any good by not running it hard to burn that crap out of the engine.

I think that running a mix like 10:1 is pretty much flooding the engine with oil, and you can get away with it if you run higher octane fuel, so yes it can easily work for you and the way you run your engines. If you aren't fouling plugs, don't have detonation, and aren't clogging up the engine in the teardown interval you are using, then it can and is working for you. In my airplane I used to have some dental pics that I used to pick the tiny balls of lead out of the spark plugs that formed from 100LL. You need a pretty hot plug to run lots of oil and that also helps keep the plugs from "lead fouling" or shorting out from the lead coating the electrodes, but again that takes you closer to detonation and limits the compression ratio you can run.

I'm just thinking that oils have changed significantly since there was just "two stroke oil" in the 50's and 60's when these engines were initially developed and the latest oils aren't don't have the lubricity of the old oils that we used to have due to the environmental requirements. That being the case, it makes sense to me to look at what's out there and maybe go beyond the garden variety of outboard oils since there are oils out there that have different and better properties.

[Mark75H]

I would like to see documented proof that lubricating oil is less than 85 or 90 octane.

Maybe its not.

Also, the dilution rate is not significant in most cases to have an observable effect. Do the math and compare.

I also suspect there are some synthetics with rather high octane ratings.

[Yellowjacket]

Rotax says that at 50:1 the oil cuts two points off of the typical octane rating. Do the math, the octane rating of oil alone is pretty low. If you are running 10:1 you have lowered the octane rating more than just a couple of points...Jet fuel has an octane rating of 20, just saying...

[zul8tr]

Found this over at a motorcycle site and interesting read about how the oil in the fuel works for lube and oil ratios.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
05-24-2006 03:34 PM #1 Yamaha Tri-Moto
Location:Canada

All About 2 stroke Oil Ratios. Interesting find
I was Browsing the net and came across this, figured ive seen so much talk about oil ratios this may help some people out. I sure found it interesting.

*I did not write this, Spanky over at mx.com did*

Pre-mix 101

OK, looks like it's time for a little pre-mix 101. I don't usually get into ratio discussions, because mix ratios are like religions to most people, and they tend to be closed-minded on the subject, but I'll put in my $.02 here anyway.

There is a prevailing myth that less oil is better, and that the oil in the fuel is what lubricates the engine. Both are wrong.

*less oil is better* People think that if they have a plug fouling problem or a lot of spooge, they need to run less oil. Wrong! Both problems are caused by rich jetting, and have nothing to do with the mix ratio.

*the oil in the fuel is what lubricates the engine* The engine is lubricated by the residual oil that builds up in the crankcase. All the oil in the fuel does is replenish this oil.

The best way to determine if you are running enough oil is to check the level of the residual oil in the crankcase. If the ratio you run leaves enough residual oil in the crankcase to cover about 1/8" of the bottom of the crank wheels, then you are fine. If you don't have that much residual oil in your crankcase when you pull the top-end off, you aren't running enough oil for your riding style and conditions.

With that said, to have that amount of residual oil in the crankcase at 50:1 (a ratio made popular by magazines and oil bottles), you can't be riding very hard, or your bike is jetted richer than necessary simply to deliver enough oil. I arrived at 26:1 for my bike with my riding style because that is the amount that gives me the proper amount of residual build-up. Small-bore engines require greater oil concentrations than larger engines to achieve the proper amount of residual build-up, because they rev higher and have higher intake velocities. Along the same lines, someone that pushes the engine harder, and keeps the revs higher, also needs to use higher oil concentrations to achieve the proper residual build-up.

To understand why the residual oil is so important, you have to understand what happens to the oil in your fuel when it goes into the engine. While the oil is still suspended in the liquid gasoline, it can not lubricate anything. It has about as much lubricity at that point as straight gasoline. When the gasoline enters the engine, it evaporates, dropping the oil out of suspension. Now that the oil is free, it can lubricate the engine, but it must get to the parts to lubricate them. The way it gets to the bearings and onto the cylinder is by being thrown around as a mist by the spinning crankshaft, and the droplets are distributed by the air currents moving through the engine. Ever wonder why there are two small holes in the transfer port area of the crankcase, right over the main bearings? These are to allow some of the oil droplets being flung around inside the engine to drip down into the main bearing area.

Some of the oil eventually makes it into the combustion chamber, where it is either burned, or passes out the exhaust. If the combustion chamber temps are too low, such as in an engine that is jetted too rich, the oil doesn't burn completely. Instead, some of it hardens into deposits in the combustion chamber, on the piston, and on the power valve assembly. The rest becomes the dreaded "spooge". The key to all of this working in harmony is to jet the bike lean enough to achieve a high enough combustion chamber temperature to burn the oil, but also still be able to supply enough oil to protect the engine. If you use enough oil, you can jet the bike at it's optimum without starving the engine of oil, and have excellent power, with minimal deposits and spooge. At 50:1, you simply can't jet very lean without risking a seized engine due to oil starvation, unless you're just putt-putting around on trails without putting the engine under much load.

With the high oil concentrations that I use, I tend to get far more life from my cranks and rings than most of my friends that run leaner oil ratios. The high oil content also produces better ring sealing, so more of the combustion pressure is retained.

One small point. No one ever broke an engine by using too much oil.


__________________________________________________ _______________________________________________

Pre-mix ratios and power production

I have run Dyno tests on this subject. We used a Dynojet dynamometer, and used a fresh, broken in top-end for each test. We used specially calibrated jets to ensure the fuel flow was identical with each different ratio, and warmed the engine at 3000 rpm for 3 minutes before each run. Our tests were performed in the rpm range of 2500 to 9000 rpm, with the power peak of our test bike (a modifed '86 YZ 250, mine) occuring at 8750 rpm. We tested at 76 degrees F, at 65% relative humidity. We started at 10:1, and went to 100:1. Our results showed that a two-stroke engine makes its best power at 18:1. Any more oil than that, and the engine ran poorly, because we didn't have any jets rich enough to compensate for that much oil in the fuel, and the burn-characteristics of the fuel with that much oil tended to be poor. The power loss from 18:1 to 32:1 was approximately 2 percent. The loss from 18:1 to 50:1 was nearly 9 percent. On a modern 250, that can be as much as 4 horsepower. The loss from 18:1 to 100:1 was nearly 18 percent. The reason for the difference in output is simple. More oil provides a better seal between the ring and the cylinder wall.

Now, I realize that 18:1 is impractical unless you ride your engine all-out, keeping it pinned at all times. But running reasonable ratios no less than 32:1 will produce more power, and give your engine better protection, thus making it perform better for longer.


As a side note, I no longer run 26:1, I now run 32:1. I'm not a young man any more, and I just can't push as hard as I used to, so I don't need as much oil now. 32:1 is enough oil to do what is needed for me now, since I'm getting slow...

[Tim Kurcz]

Thank you for the data! The motorcycle article speaks volumes: 2-stroke mechanics routinely see evidence of the "river" oil that flows through an engine. Though crank wheel references don't apply to vertical crank engines, the concept is the same. It's interesting that 18:1 appears to be a magic number (relative to power output). Perhaps the factories knew something about the subject after all.

It should be noted that duty cycle has a lot to do with ratio requirements. This is why my race motors run absolutely clean compared to the Merc 500 pontoon boat example. They are always hot, running high RPM, which doesn't allow carbon or lead buidup to form. BTW: Higher oil concentrations seal rings, labyrinth seals, and reeds better than lower concentrations. These are reasons for more delivered power.

Tim

[Yellowjacket]

Great stuff Z, nothing like real data to put things into perspective, and no question Tim you need enough oil to help seal the rings, but too much oil is likely to cause power reduction too, so you want the right amount, not too much or too little.

Also remember that every engine is different. An engine with better inherent ring sealing might be able to run on less oil than one with a piston with fewer rings, so while this is great stuff it may not be perfect for our engines. Question now is, if you run a Merc 44 at 16:1 will you have any issues with ring scuffing, bore sticking or big end bearings??? And how fast can you run it that way for how long??

[Tim Kurcz]

Great stuff Z, nothing like real data to put things into perspective, and no question Tim you need enough oil to help seal the rings, but too much oil is likely to cause power reduction too, so you want the right amount, not too much or too little.

Also remember that every engine is different. An engine with better inherent ring sealing might be able to run on less oil than one with a piston with fewer rings, so while this is great stuff it may not be perfect for our engines. Question now is, if you run a Merc 44 at 16:1 will you have any issues with ring scuffing, bore sticking or big end bearings??? And how fast can you run it that way for how long??



Hey Yellowjacket: The test Z refers to indicates power begins to suffer under 18:1 to a limited degree, but without fear of bearing, ring, and cylinder damage. Most of us would rather suffer 1-2% power reduction than a set of blued bearings, crank, or scored pistons/bores.

Many years ago a well known factory engineer confided in me the fact that max power/durability testing was conducted at 16:1. Since that day dozens of my engines have run 16:1 or heavier oil. These engines have won numreous local, regional, divisional, national events. BTW: My world record setting OMC triple uses one ring pistons. Yet none have ever failed a bearing, ring, or piston due to lubrication failure.

Even engines with burnt pistons (due to bad fuel, too much spark, or too lean mixture) never exibited a bearing problem. And the only time bore sticks occurred was due to inadequate cooling (cooling system starvation, etc) or low/zero oil. Poor cooling only leads to a hurt piston and bore. A low/zero oil destroys pistons, bore, rods, and crank.

Oil quality not withstanding, duty cycle should dictate oil ratio. The only reasons to use less oil is for extended low speed operation, less smoke, or if you're trying to economize. It's well known that the 50:1 (and taller) ratios have been pushed by marketing types to reduce cost of operation, smoke, etc, but at what cost? It all sounds good until you remember that oil is cheaper than parts!

Tim

BTW: I too, love the smell of Klotz, Blendzall, and castor in Methanol.......

[Fastjeff57]

Am I wrong (hah!) but isn't that YZ-250 air cooled? If so, his results are out the window when discussing water-cooled outboard engines.

Jeff

[Tim Kurcz]

Am I wrong (hah!) but isn't that YZ-250 air cooled? If so, his results are out the window when discussing water-cooled outboard engines.

Jeff

Why would air vs water cooling make a difference?

[Yellowjacket]

Lower cylinder wall temps would increase the viscosity of the oil on the walls, which might allow the oil concentration to be a bit lower to have the same effect.

But OTOH I'm doubting that would be a big difference. Cylinder wall and pistion temps are a lot higher in air cooled engines than outboards and that is one of the key differences between the oils that are rated for air cooled and water cooled applications. So air cooled oils have more bright stock and therefore hold viscosity to a higher temp so that they don't stick rings of have scuffing near the exhaust ports at those higher temps. They are like grapefruit and oranges, they are both a bit different, but they are both citrus and there's a lot of similarity too.

I'd still figure that the percentages where best power is attained is probably in the same general area, not up at 32:1 and certainly not at 50:1, and probably not down at 10:1 either. If the manufacturer told Tim they ran power and durability at 16:1 that was from their experience, so we have 2 data points in the same vicinity. Like I said, every engine is going to be a bit different. Some might like a bit more oil to seal, others might need a bit less, and it's going to change with viscosity of the oil you are using, the temperatures you are running, the clearances of that specific engine... It goes on an on.

We aren't trying to nail a specific number for any specific or all engines, I just want to get in the ball park and find home plate, not specific blade of grass.

[Mark75H]

I would like to thank all that have contributed the fantastic information on this thread!

This is without a doubt the best 2 stroke oil thread I have ever seen.

[Tim Kurcz]

Excellent indeed!

Having been in the marine business for 40 years (OMG am I getting old), I've got to say the engines, oils, props, everything has gotten way better. My Super 10's ran 16:1, later models on 25:1, and Merc was transitioning to 50:1 at that time (1972). We weren't sure if the earlier models should be run on leaner oils, even though oil suppliers said you could. Plug fouling was certain reality with magnetos, so we tempted fate and tested. I remember stock outboard guys swearing they went faster on 50:1. Not sure about that, but plug fowling and smoke was greatly reduced, then disappeared when Thunderbolt ignition was introduced. Heck, they even ran stone cold surface gap plugs and still idled without fouling!

The point I'd like to make is the oils have improved dramatically over the years, so you can get away with leaner ratios - even with basic production oils such as TCW3. As Yellowjacket, Zul8tr, Sam, and others have pointed out, there is no single best oil for every engine and/or application. It's great to test new products so long as good reasoning goes into the change and careful notes are taken.

Too many times the product of many hours work was reduced to rubble because of unknown consequences for a new products. Example: A cam wiped lobes and spread metal throughout a new engine running the just released super-duper Mobil 1 synthetic in an OHC engine in 1982. Only after complaining to the Mobil techs directly did I learn the oil had not been tested in OHC's! Thankfully, better research & test methods, and the power of the internet help communicate problem products.

Thanks to all for sharing. Please keep it coming!

Tim

[Tim Kurcz]

For those of you that have "Iron Fist" turn to page 296 and read about port clogging in the MK75 endurance event. It says ports were closing off while running at 4500 RPM with oil of the day (not specified) and white gas (non-leaded marine fuel for outboards in the early days). TCW3 (and other later oils) do not build carbon in racing applicatoins (my experience).

Tim

[zul8tr]

Water cooled has more efficient heat transfer if the cooling chambers are properly designed and especially outboards with a constant supply of lake temp water. Air cooled can have dead spots behind cylinder and inbetween 2 cylinderes. My experience with air cooled is they definately run hotter and need to be clearanced properly for expansion.

[Krazy Karl]

I read an article a couple of years ago concerning two stroke oils. Ash was one of the subjects discussed and Pennsoil of all brands produced the least amount of ash. Another thing discussed was the difference between oils for water cooled and air cooled engines. I don't remember the exact terminology but air cooled engine oil is formulated so that the oil drops out of suspension at a higher flash point than water cooled engines due to the higher running temperatures of air cooled engines thereby getting to all areas of the engine before it drops out. I think it also talked about air cooled oils requiring a higher temperature to burn thus being able to lubricate cylinder walls at a higher temperature. This is the best that I can recall reading, but there are definite differences between the two. I also wonder about 2 stroke oil now being marketed for all 2 stroke engines. I would touch that stuff with a 10 foot pole if what I have read is true. I ran my Yamato last year on Mercury oil and this year on Red Line. I haven't looked inside yet but didn't see any differences in performance.
kk

[Fastjeff57]

"Ash" sure was the problem back then, when I first started yanking the starter handle on my KG-7. The best oils were LOADED with ash and fouled up the works in short order.

For that matter, 4 stroke oils weren't that much better. The old Ford Y-bock V-8s (243 to 312 cubes) weren't that bad an engine, but the oils available back then were not up to the way they oiled there rocker arms. The result was scored parts and whipped main bearings after metal particles (crappy oilfliters as well) contaminated the oil. Modern oils have sure come a long way.

Any old Ford V-8 lovers out there?

Jeff

PS: A well set up Ford 312 would whip the best equipped Chevy 283 every time.

[zul8tr]

Agreed on the 312 and the 283. I had a 312 Auto with 4 bbl Carter in a 57 Ford Fairlane 2 door no pillar, white with crome and gold trim and black interior, nice car and a good runner. Had a race with a 57 Chev going across Texas on my way from Calif to Fla. He could not stay with the Ford in any gear.

[Fastjeff57]

Right! I recall several, spirited street races between by buddy's 57 Chevy and my sister-in-law's 57 Ford. The Ford cleaned house!

Jeff

[Krazy Karl]

"Ash" sure was the problem back then, when I first started yanking the starter handle on my KG-7. The best oils were LOADED with ash and fouled up the works in short order.

For that matter, 4 stroke oils weren't that much better. The old Ford Y-bock V-8s (243 to 312 cubes) weren't that bad an engine, but the oils available back then were not up to the way they oiled there rocker arms. The result was scored parts and whipped main bearings after metal particles (crappy oilfliters as well) contaminated the oil. Modern oils have sure come a long way.

Any old Ford V-8 lovers out there?

Jeff

PS: A well set up Ford 312 would whip the best equipped Chevy 283 every time.

We had a 1958 352 that broke valve springs all the time. It wasn't that oil couldn't get to the rockers, it couldn't get out and sludged up in the valve covers preventing oil flow. Then the springs would overheat and break. The 383 Dodge my dad bought to replace his first and only FoMoCo could suck the headlights out of that Ford.

[Fastjeff57]

Ah yes, the old Ford 352. I recall (when I worked in a junkyard) trying to get their distributors out without breaking them.

Jeff

[hydroplay]

Sorry guys, 57 Fords with 312s were turds. I had a 57 BelAir hardtop that originally was a light 6 cylinder car. I scrounged up a 57 Chevy 283 and trans and never had an issue with a 57 Ford. Of course not all 283s were born equal. I got mine out of a miserable looking 59 Chevy and the guy I bought that from got it from a crashed Corvette. It was the 270 hp model with dual quads and came with a neat 4 speed tranny. I left the motor stock save for a Mallory ignition and a set of headers. The trans was a favorite plaything that could be removed on the ground in less than 10 minutes when I got good at it. I played around with the synchronizers and blockers and got it so I could shift full power without the clutch. And found a 4:11 posi rear end. Even had some slicks for a time until it rained on the way back from a race at Neosho. Eventually I wanted something nicer so I found a really cherry 57 that was a twin. Eventually the running gear from the first was put in the new one and a set of American mags with Goodyear BlueStreaks. Even though this body was undercoated and heavier, 57 Fords never were a problem.

[Krazy Karl]

The oil pump on ours locked up at one point and took out the distributor too. This was in a Ranch Wagon and the only things that didn't break on that car were the trans and differential. It was a terrible car, but my dad said anyone can build a lemon but when Ford couldn't fix the valve spring problem, it was his last. A few years later my mom wanted a Mustang real bad and my dad said no way in hell. She LOVED the 67 Barracuda she got instead.
kk

[Powerabout]

We need to find the BRP stuff on why API TC oil in Seadoos, it is a good read
EDIT http://www.sea-doo.net/techarticles/oil/oil.htm
and
http://www.klemmvintage.com/oils.htm

I think we learnt we need to feed TCW-III through the idle jets and castor through the main jets?

[Bill Gohr]

Yamahalube "R" dirty, expensive, and slippery

[Tim Kurcz]

We need to find the BRP stuff on why API TC oil in Seadoos, it is a good read
EDIT http://www.sea-doo.net/techarticles/oil/oil.htm
and
http://www.klemmvintage.com/oils.htm

I think we learnt we need to feed TCW-III through the idle jets and castor through the main jets?


Thanks for the excellent articles and great thinking: Your suggestion for dual oil feed makes fantastic sense!

This effect was accomplished in my turbo OMC as a by-product of fuel selection: At pressure switch opens a solenoid allowing a mix of methanol & 18% castor oil into the intake stream for enrichment/cooling. The only reason mix was used is because it's readily available in hobby stores as FAI (zero nitro) glow plug fuel (straight methanol is hard to find in small quantities).

The articles agree with the benefits of castor oil at high temps/pressures, so it now makes sense why the pistons are intact after 5+ boost hours (after 2 blown head gaskets); I had expected them to go away long before. A side benefit of this injection method is that the castor is washed away with TCW3 at lower power settings before every shutdown.

It will be interesting to see what the pieces look like upon disassembly this winter.

Gotta love the power of the internet and enthusiasts. Thanks again!

Tim

[Powerabout]

I wonder if you could accomplish this with some kind of fuel valve on the throttle and have 2 pumps so you have 2 supplies?

[Tim Kurcz]

I wonder if you could accomplish this with some kind of fuel valve on the throttle and have 2 pumps so you have 2 supplies?

Possible, but gasoline burns at about 12.5:1 fuel-air, methanol at about 7:1. How do you propose to make up the difference in flow required?

[Powerabout]

one pump runs mix but is cut off as soon as the throttle is opened and then the other pump that has been pumping to a stopped head can feed the carbs.
Assuming main jet is only sized for the alcohol?
will this work or do I need to think more?

[Tim Kurcz]

one pump runs mix but is cut off as soon as the throttle is opened and then the other pump that has been pumping to a stopped head can feed the carbs.
Assuming main jet is only sized for the alcohol?
will this work or do I need to think more?

Sorry, but I sent the wrong information. So much for short term memory! See below:

Gasoline - Gasoline is what most of our cars came setup so it's usually what we stick with. Gasoline is a mixture of hydrocarbons. The petroleum distillate fraction termed "gasoline" contains mostly saturated hydrocarbons usually with a chemical formula of C8H18. The air fuel ratio, A/F Ratio, for complete combustion is 14.7:1, stoichiometric. The A/F ratio for maximum power is approximately 12.5:1 - 12.8:1. This means that our engine at max power, 12.8:1, consumes 12.8 pounds of air for 1 pound of fuel. Gasoline has approximately 18,400 BTU/lb . Using the air flow calculator with the default inputs we get our 355 SBC consumes 567.53 cfm @ 6500rpm which is 42.64 pounds of air and consumes 2.89 pounds of fuel. Therefore if we are using gasoline our engine is producing 53,176 BTU's of energy at 6500 rpm.

Alcohol (Methanol) - Alcohol is usually used in the form of Methyl alcohol or methanol. CH3OH is the chemical formula. Methanol burns at a much richer mixture than gasoline does, between 5.0:1 - 6.0:1. That's 5 lbs of air to one pound of fuel. Methanol has approximately 9,500 BTU/lb. Using our 355, example above, SBC consumes 567.53 cfm @ 6500rpm which is 42.64 pounds of air and now at 6.0:1 ratio for Methanol is 7.11 pounds of fuel. Therefore if we are using Methanol fuel our engine is producing 67,545 BTU's of energy at 6500 rpm.


If jetted for methanol and switched to gasoline, the engine would struggle with the extreme over-rich condition. A twin jet system, two separate carburetion systems, or better yet, twin fuel injection systems would be needed to overcome the challenge.

[Powerabout]

other then the fuel bowl it cant get a supply of gas at high speed as the supply from the pump with the gas is cut off
2 supply lines 2 pumps into a 2 in one out lever actuated valve

[Tim Kurcz]

other then the fuel bowl it cant get a supply of gas at high speed as the supply from the pump with the gas is cut off
2 supply lines 2 pumps into a 2 in one out lever actuated valve

If the gasoline is only for cleaning & rust preventative, why not use the carbs for methanol only and separate injector system for the gas/oil mix to be used for shutdown only?

[Powerabout]

sure, how long would it take to wash the caster oil out?

[Tim Kurcz]

sure, how long would it take to wash the caster oil out?

Your guess is as good as mine, but 4-5 minutes minutes one would think.

Wbat abour the same carb, same alcohol jets, burning methanol mixed with TCW3 for the last few minutes to wash out castor? Use a solenoid actuated shuttle valve downstream of two tanks, upstream of the pump. That way you wash and lube the fuel pump as well.

What application do you have in mind?

[Bill Van Steenwyk]

sure, how long would it take to wash the caster oil out?




Powerabout:

Unless you are concerned about internal "gumming up" of the engine from long spells of the engine sitting with a methanol/castor oil mix sitting on the internal parts, you have the "cart before the horse" so to speak with the problems that occur with an alcohol/castor mix left in the engine. Based on almost 40 years of running "alky" burners in the PRO category, the problem is not the castor oil (unless it is not the degummed variety and is left in the engine for long periods) but the alky, either ethanol or methanol. Both are corrosive, attract moisture that cause rust in a very short time, and are otherwise harmful to the internals of an engine, and with the ethanol mixes used today most everywhere in the US, harmful to a lot of other parts of the engine also.

What I (and many others) used to do after a weekend of racing with alky, was to have a small plastic can (usually one gallon) with a hose attached and a pump bulb of the type used with any gas tank sold with a common Merc, OMC., etc. After running with alky, we would substitute the hose from the small tank to where the larger tank would normally hook up to the engine, pump up the mix to the carbs, which in my case I always used 110 lead free av gas, mixed with the "Blendzoll" brand of de-gummed castor. Up to 8-10 years ago this was readily available anywhere race fuel/oil was sold. My normal mix for racing was 20-1 or 1 qt oil to 5 gal alky. I would mix the fuel in the small tank for after racing "flush" double on oil, in other words, 10-1 on the oil or 2 qts/five gal gas. The gas flushes any residual alcohol out of the engine by burning it, and the double de-gummed castor mix coats the engine internals very good with oil. Some used other mixes such as "Marvel Mystery Oil", or whatever they had good luck with, but you have to use gas to get rid of the alky. It does no good to replace alky with more alky, especially gas with 10% alky mix like is sold now for cars.

I always figured if the blendzoll worked while the engine was running at almost 14K that was good enough for me at the much lower RPM I ran it at on the bank. You could probably use some of the common "storage oil" that is sprayed in the air intake also if wanted or you felt it was needed. I do that with my 150EFI, but fill the fuel filter before putting on a new one with this gas/storage oil mix, plus the oil being injected by the oil pump.

As far as time to run it, depending on the size engine, I usually ran it about a minute or so, just enough to get the cyl head too warm for comfort with my hand on it, but not enough to damage the engine from lack of water, as our motors are force fed and do not have water pumps.

An engine with a water pump could be run as long as you would want of course, but I would think until the thermostats opened would be good enough. I had many engines sit over the winter with this treatment and never had any problems I could trace back to rust/corrosion/ or residual alcohol left in the engine. The reason I used 110 lead free AV gas was the tight CC's in the PRO engines with very high compression, that ordinary pump gas might detonate. . Probably not a problem with your engine? You would probably be OK with something like 91-93 octane pump gas.

Hope I have not misunderstood your post, but degummed castor will not hurt your engine if left in over the winter, but alcohol definitely will, and the gas will burn and wash that out.

Hope this is helpful.

Bill

[Tim Kurcz]

Bill,

Your response is the power of an active, experienced readership. Clearly, I have no alky experience, and was attempting to formulate a means of dual-fueling an engine. Your solution makes sense and will be used for the "666"if it ever runs alky. I forgot completely about the corrosive aspects of methanol, being overly foucsed on proper jetting for sustained operation. If it only takes minute's run to "wash" the alky (and castor) from an engine, then a second fuel tank whether manual or with shuttle valve is the solution.

The turbo is stock compression for greatest possible combusion chamber volume, but runs 100LL and 1 quart to 4 gal (16:1) because it detonates at 3PSI boost on 93UL. So Methanol is bled into the center of the mixture flow immediately upstream of the turbo for charge cooling (and enrichment) because you can't intercool a draw through system. Being that alky is on only during boost, it is automatically washed from the engine by the time shore is reached. Not sure of Graham's application, but will learn shortly to be sure.

Thanks for your excellent insight!

Tim

Side note: My NA engines use compresson in the 175 PSI range and require 100LL as well.

[Powerabout]

Thanks Bill
yes it sounds like its a problem that is simple to solve.
The other item with the castor oil is that is doesn't have the rust prevention that tcw has so I gues if you leave it inthe engine you get problems from the alcohol and the castor not helping.

[Bill Van Steenwyk]

Thanks Bill
yes it sounds like its a problem that is simple to solve.
The other item with the castor oil is that is doesn't have the rust prevention that tcw has so I gues if you leave it inthe engine you get problems from the alcohol and the castor not helping.




That's why I mentioned the trick about filling the fuel filter with your rust prevent (fogging oil) mixed with ethanol free gas. I learned that trick from "Mercguy" who frequents this site and also Hydroracer.


My alky motor of course was no problem to hook up the heavy mix tank as the carbs were right out in the open. On the other hand, my 150EFI on my Bass boat has the throttle shutters in the back of the plenum, and very hard to get to to spray the fogging oil, not even counting the circuitous route it must then follow to get to the injectors and into the engine. I have the same type system (gal jug) with my pre-mix in the jug, and then as I always change the fuel filter when I winterize, I run the engine with the fuel line that is normally on the boat tank, in the jug, after having filled the fuel filter with the gas/fogging oil mix. Have done this the last two winters and the engine really smokes when first started up on the hose the following spring, so I feel it has been properly coated with the mix. I run it on the hose till the thermostat opens and the pee stream starts and then remove the hose from the jug, and continue to run until the motor quits from lack of fuel. This assures no fuel is left in the system,( I always try to get ethanol free gas for the boat, but you never know these days) if by chance the fuel should have had ethanol in it. I also drain the tank in the boat over the winter. I have had no fuel related problems since using this method, but had nothing but problems even after using the fogging oil in the plenum, and putting plenty of Sta-Bil in the fuel for the winter.

I am firmly convinced that alcohol, of any kind, should not be used as am outboard motor fuel except if this type clean out procedure is used if the motor is to be stored and not run for a two month period or more. My boat was bought used and came from Arkansas where 10% gas/ethanol mix was not used while this boat was operated by the owner there. When I brought it home to Missouri after purchase, I had all kinds of fuel related problems the first year operating on the gasoline/ethanol mix. This included fuel lines, fuel pump check valves, crud that came loose from the fuel tank interior and then went thru the motor including problems with the VST tank. It took quite an amount of time, and money to solve all this so now I only purchase fuel at the lake, either at local service stations adjacent to the water that carry ethanol free gas, or at a marina dock which also has the ethanol free fuel.

Different application, pleasure engine to race engine, but alcohol based fuel and the problems it can cause if not taken care of properly is the common denominator. Usually this fuel mix does not cause the same type problems in an automobile, as a car fuel system these days is a closed system with no or very little chance of introducing moisture into the system, but a vented fuel system as in a boat is a whole different animal.

[Fastjeff57]

I hate to say it, but--other than a suspiciously torn fuel pump diaphragm years ago--I haven't had that much trouble with ethanol gas. However--and this is crucial--I NEVER, ever leave that crap sitting in my engines. I run the carbs dry, each and every time I'm through running the engine. No exceptions. (To make this easier, I mounted a fuel shut off valve in the gas line.)

For winter storage, I 'juice' the gas with Startron fuel treatment before running the carbs dry. I then pull the jet plugs (Mercarbs) and blow out the remaining gas with compressed air. Okay; so I'm a bit anal, but no problems to date.

Jeff

[Smokin' Joe]

Yamalube is fine. So are Mercury and Evinrude oil. I like Evinrude
XD100 and Red Line @ 25:1 at 6500+ RPM

[Fastjeff57]

..."The turbo is stock compression for greatest possible combusion chamber volume, but runs 100LL and 1 quart to 4 gal (16:1) because it detonates at 3PSI boost on 93UL."

Time for an intercooler! Lots of cold water out there to make it work.

Jeff

[omcstratos]

I am familiar with Klotz and Amsoil but does anyone have any results and experience using Alisyn? I am curious and may try it out soon.

[smittythewelder]

For info on gasohol, google "sta-bil white paper".

Among other things (and generally they are talking about cars), they are saying that the usual E10 and E15 blends do not generally draw much moisture "right out of the air," as is popularly imagined. They certainly will pick up any condensed moisture in the tank. For cars, this used to be thought of as a good thing, with products called "gas-dryers" sold at auto parts stores for just this purpose. The alcohol in gasohol will also tend to loosen up any glop in the tank, and some of this crud will go through a brand new fuel filter. You should be able to use gasohol without further issues if you remove the tank and hard lines from your car or boat and get them steam-cleaned or boiled out in a hot tank and follow this with a rust-remover, rust-converter chemical treatment. With the tank and hard lines back in place, get new soft lines. The alcohol will eventually (several years) start to degrade standard soft lines, causing the inner surface to slough off little chunks. That done, the gasohol should keep your tank from accumulating a lot of new gooey deposits. Chevron is widely considered to have the best additive package to keep stuff clean. If you don't use the vehicle frequently, top up the tank; use Sta-Bil or similar product for long storage, and fogging oil has already been mentioned.

Even smart guys sometimes forget that pre-mixed 2-stroke oil will settle to the bottom of the tank over time. Shake up that tank. This means shaking up your chainsaw or weedeater that has sat in the shed for a few days, your 2-stroke dirt bike should be rocked back and forth, and so on. Otherwise you might have the common experience of an engine that pukes out a lot of smoke until it gets past the oil-rich layer of fuel in the bottom of the tank, and then siezes on the oil-lean fuel remaining.

[zul8tr]

Found this tech article on oil testing by Pennzoil on air cooled engine for wear, carbon deposits, ring scuffing, etc but they also discuss water cooled. Also see discussion at bottom of results.

http://www.powerchutes.com/oil.pdf

[Smokin' Joe]

Found this tech article on oil testing by Pennzoil on air cooled engine for wear, carbon deposits, ring scuffing, etc but they also discuss water cooled. Also see discussion at bottom of results.

http://www.powerchutes.com/oil.pdf

I'm very satisfied with XD-100 synthetic in all our classic OMC motors, 2 & 3 cyl. service and racing, 6000-8000
RPM. It burns exceptionally clean and lubricates extremely well. no winterization Is needed inside the
powerhead.

I have a new experience with gasoline. We have a 1981 Evinrude 15 in Germany, we rebuilt it in 2009. Turns
6500 RPM so I run XD-100 37:1 or 25:1 with 98 RON non-ethanol gas. Ran perfectly until last week. Started,
idled and accelerated normally then died wide open. I thought about it, then pulled the fuel filter cover. The
open space behind the screen was filled with wax! Paraffin. An AOMC colleague with aircraft background says
that paraffin in gas is a result of incomplete refinement. We generally buy Shell or Total 98 oct. in N. Germany but
I don't know where that fuel is refined. We ran the 15 for 6 summers several hours each summer, sometimes
5-8 hrs/summer. After cleaning out the wax the motor runs perfectly again. Very nice outboard, the 1976-ca 1992
OMC 15 (same is powerhead used in AX racing).

[zul8tr]

I'm very satisfied with XD-100 synthetic in all our classic OMC motors, 2 & 3 cyl. service and racing, 6000-8000
RPM. It burns exceptionally clean and lubricates extremely well. no winterization Is needed inside the
powerhead.

I have a new experience with gasoline. We have a 1981 Evinrude 15 in Germany, we rebuilt it in 2009. Turns
6500 RPM so I run XD-100 37:1 or 25:1 with 98 RON non-ethanol gas. Ran perfectly until last week. Started,
idled and accelerated normally then died wide open. I thought about it, then pulled the fuel filter cover. The
open space behind the screen was filled with wax! Paraffin. An AOMC colleague with aircraft background says
that paraffin in gas is a result of incomplete refinement. We generally buy Shell or Total 98 oct. in N. Germany but
I don't know where that fuel is refined. We ran the 15 for 6 summers several hours each summer, sometimes
5-8 hrs/summer. After cleaning out the wax the motor runs perfectly again. Very nice outboard, the 1976-ca 1992
OMC 15 (same is powerhead used in AX racing).

Here is a field test where Amsoil went head to head with XD100 to let Evenrude Etec owners know that it is OK to use Amsoil over XD100. Not supporting Amsoil but the testing is very good support for the XD100 oil. great pic of dissassembled engines using both oils

http://www.amsoil.com/lit/G2968.pdf

[Powerabout]

Here is a field test where Amsoil went head to head with XD100 to let Evenrude Etec owners know that it is OK to use Amsoil over XD100. Not supporting Amsoil but the testing is very good support for the XD100 oil. great pic of dissassembled engines using both oils

http://www.amsoil.com/lit/G2968.pdf
I cant see where it says its BIA TCW-3 certified?

[zul8tr]

I cant see where it says its BIA TCW-3 certified?

Neither can I. Was just providing a link to info about Amsoil and XD100 that Smokin' Joe uses.


The xd 100 is designed for oil injection engines like the Etec that uses variable oil ratios depending on the load and rpm. These engines have different settings in the computer for other Rude oils

Here is the official factory wording on the oil setting issue for the Etec

"EVINRUDE DIAGNOSTICS OIL TYPE SETTINGS
Evinrude Diagnostics software provides an option to change the oil type setting for specific models. Use SET OIL TYPE function as follows:

TC-W3 setting: For operation with all TC-W3 outboard oils including XD30, or XD50 and XD100 and applications [such as commercial or high-performance] requiring maximum lubrication.

XD100 setting: An optional setting that REQUIRES the exclusive use of XD100 outboard oil. This setting offers reduced oil consumption. It is NOT available on HO models and is not recommended for all applications. Use the XD100 setting for conventional use (runabouts, cruisers) and moderate applications.

Refer to the correct Operators Guide for details. "

So is xd100 a TCW3 oil?

Appears to work for Smokin' Joe

[Smokin' Joe]

Synthetic oil is generally not TC-W3 and in this case it doesn't matter. XD100, Red Line, and Amsoil
work just fine, burn cleaner than TC-W3 mineral oils. Rinkers race using Amsoil, an AOMC Johnson
antique expert runs Amsoil at 64:1 in his antique service and racing outboards with very good results.



I cant see where it says its BIA TCW-3 certified?

[zul8tr]

http://www.mercurymarine.com/_media/pdfs/productbrochures/Rejuvenate.pdf

What are you using now since rejuvenate has been cancelled?

[Yellowjacket]

What are you using now since rejuvenate has been cancelled?

Rejuvenate was discontinued last year. I mentioned that in post 11 of this thread. Up until now it has still been available at West Marine and a few other places. West had it on clearance and I tried to order it but they were out of stock. I just ordered another gallon on line from another supplier so I should have about 2 gallons of the stuff left. At the time it was discontinued Mercury had said it was going to be "rebranded" into a high performance oil, but that hasn't happened so far as I know. When mine is gone I'm hoping that something else will be available. I can get the Multifuel oil, but at $100/gallon that is about twice as expensive than Rejuvenate (which wasn't cheap either at $50/gallon shipped), so who knows...

One other thing, I'm not the only folks who seem to like this stuff.. Here's a link to the folks a Wiendant racing who also have been recommending it...

http://www.wptracing.com/2-cycle-lubricants

I was looking to see if I could find some more on line as the supplies seem to be drying up and cam across that page. Did also score another gallon so now I have three gallons.

[zul8tr]

Rejuvenate was discontinued last year. I mentioned that in post 11 of this thread. Up until now it has still been available at West Marine and a few other places. West had it on clearance and I tried to order it but they were out of stock. I just ordered another gallon on line from another supplier so I should have about 2 gallons of the stuff left. At the time it was discontinued Mercury had said it was going to be "rebranded" into a high performance oil, but that hasn't happened so far as I know. When mine is gone I'm hoping that something else will be available. I can get the Multifuel oil, but at $100/gallon that is about twice as expensive than Rejuvenate (which wasn't cheap either at $50/gallon shipped), so who knows...

One other thing, I'm not the only folks who seem to like this stuff.. Here's a link to the folks a Wiendant racing who also have been recommending it...

http://www.wptracing.com/2-cycle-lubricants

I was looking to see if I could find some more on line as the supplies seem to be drying up and cam across that page. Did also score another gallon so now I have three gallons.

West no longer has rejuvenate. The link on Wiendant racing about rejuvenate comes up as jibberish symbols? On the Mercury racing site Blog they note Mercury Racing 2 stroke oil that replaces their NLA 2 cycle performance blend which was used on the high rpm race engines and is noted in this link (see also the 3rd answer in the link):

http://www.mercuryracing.com/blog/vital-fluids/

What do you know about this 2 stroke oil? Only available in 3 x 1gal lots.

[Yellowjacket]

The Wiendant link works for me, if it doesn't work I'd go to the Wiendant performance technology home page and then go to the racing products drop down menu and then click on the 2 cycle lubricant page. There is a discussion on their recommendations for high performance 2 cycle applications.

As I noted in the early post I had Emailed Mercury's manager of aftermarket lubricants, Heidi Stark-Klebs and discussed with her the differences between Rejuvenate and the Multifuel oil. She had said they were similar, but that the Multifuel oil had more detergents in it to help remove the deposits from heavy fuels, and more lubricity to contend with the washing of the cylinders with heavy fuel. Since the Mulitfuel oil was on back order early in our heavy fuel test program, we used the Rejuvenate for our early testing and switched over to the Multifuel later when it became available.

I also discussed with her that I was using the Rejuvenate in my race motor and had learned from West Marine that it had been discontinued. I indicated I was disappointed that it had been discontinued since it was obviously "good stuff". She indicated at the time that it wasn't really going to go away, and that it was being reformulated slightly, and basically re-released as a high performance racing oil. My guess is that the 2 stroke racing oil that was released in the end of March is the product that she was describing about 6 months earlier. Previously for the 200 ROS racing motor they had recommended the Multifuel oil. Now they are saying this new 2 Stroke Racing oil is usable in that engine.

Just conjecture on my part but putting 2 and 2 together, I'm guessing that the new oil is the rebranded Rejuvenate. The price is about the same, but having to buy 3 gallons as a time kinda sucks. I don't know why they would do that, but when I run out of Rejuvenate I'll go to the new 2 stroke racing oil.

[zul8tr]

The Wiendant link works for me, if it doesn't work I'd go to the Wiendant performance technology home page and then go to the racing products drop down menu and then click on the 2 cycle lubricant page. There is a discussion on their recommendations for high performance 2 cycle applications. ...................

.

I have no problem with getting on the Wiendant site and getting to their 2 cycle lubricants but once there this internal link gives jibberish:

........More information on Mercury Rejuvenate oil p/n 858102Q01 can be found at www.rejuvenateyourengine.com....

Does this internal link work for you?

Note the new mercury racing 2 stroke oil they now recommend for race engines and others is a TCW3 oil. Does that mean it is limited to 6800 rpm conditions per TCW3 specs or it greatly exceeds that TCW3 spec per Mercury Racing? The OptiMax 200XS SST is rated at 8000 rpm.

http://www.mercuryracing.com/outboards/optimax200xssst/specs.php

How will that fare with this oil and the TCW3 rpm spec?

Was Rejuvenate a TCW3 oil?

Agreed buying 3 gals min sucks! Maybe that will change as the oil makes its way to distributers?

[Yellowjacket]

No, that link doesn't work anymore. Mercury probably deleted that link when they discontinued the oil.

TCW3 is a rating test. It is run at 6,000 rpm on a water cooled engine. That doesn't mean that the oil doesn't have lubrication properties that are better, the oil could be fine for higher speed, you just don't know. The oil can be substantially better, but with only a TCW3 rating it is simply a crap shoot. All the rating means is that the oil was tested on a water cooled engine to 6,000 rpm, didn't have high wear, and it didn't form a high level of deposits, AND the oil doesn't contain heavy metal cleaning agents that would pollute rivers and streams.

Oils rated JASO-FD or ISO-EGD are tested on an air cooled two stroke high speed engine. This is a much tougher test for lubricity and heat tolerance since the air cooled engine runs a lot hotter than a typical water cooled engine and the engine speeds are higher. If you are running higher speeds you need an oil rated for higher speeds.

There is no reason you can't run multiple rating tests on an oil and achieve multiple ratings. You just have to pass the tests. The problem is that additives that provide high temperature and high speed lubricity tend to also not be compatible with a TCW3 rating because they don't meet the pollution requirements of TCW3.

There are some oils that are rated both TCW3 AND JASO-FD. That's what you want if you are running an outboard at high RPM.

Rejuvenate doesn't have a rating on the bottle. In some Mercury pages it was described as being rated to JASO-FD. In addition, on the jug it specifically states that the oil was "recommended for water cooled and air cooled 2 cycle engines....". I'm sure that Rejuvenate could pass the TCW3 test in terms of deposit formation and lubricity, but I also strongly suspect that Rejuvenate wasn't rated as TCW3 because it has heavy metal detergents in it that are not compatible with TCW3 requirements. That doesn't mean it won't work in an outboard, it just means that it most likely doesn't meet the pollution aspects of TCW3.

This is why Mercury had to reformulate it, because it wasn't "legal" as a TCW3 because of heavy metal pollution. The new 2 stroke racing oil has a TCW3 rating, but it also has better lubrication properties since it is recommended for high speed motors and is likely good for high speed use. The problem is that racing outboards also run at high temperatures, more like an air cooled 2 stroke than a typical pontoon boat put-putting around an inland lake. For that reason, you for sure don't want to use an oil with just a TCW3 rating since it may not have the high speed lubricity you need if you are running high rpm's.

I now have 3 gallons of "Rejuvenate" in the garage, and hopefully that will last me a good while. After that I'll use Multifuel oil since I have access to that too, but if the 2 stroke racing oil is as good as the Rejuvenate, I'll use that since it is less expensive than the Multifuel oil.

[zul8tr]

The TCW3 testing is done at different WOT rpm and less than 6000 depending on the engine trested according to the NMMA guide.

http://www.nmma.org/certification/certification/oil/tc-w3.aspx

So I suppose Mercury oils like Premium Plus TCW3 oil as they state exceed the NMMA tests since Mercury specifies its use in some of their 2 stroke engines that are rated at higher rpms than the NMMA tests. Does Mercury do their own tests or ship them out to independent labs? I hope the latter!

[Smokin' Joe]

Evinrude XD100 synthetic burns extremely clean and lubricates extremely well.
We've used it for several years now.
We run it 25:1 in our EP motor (6700-7000 RPM), 45SS (7000-7500 RPM) and in
our small motors (1980s era Evinrude 15 and Johnson 35) turning 6100-6500.
We would run 50:1 only below 6000 RPM but we don't run a motor that runs that slowly.




The TCW3 testing is done at different WOT rpm and less than 6000 depending on the engine trested according to the NMMA guide.

http://www.nmma.org/certification/certification/oil/tc-w3.aspx

So I suppose Mercury oils like Premium Plus TCW3 oil as they state exceed the NMMA tests since Mercury specifies its use in some of their 2 stroke engines that are rated at higher rpms than the NMMA tests. Does Mercury do their own tests or ship them out to independent labs? I hope the latter!

[champ20B]

I've always used yamalube but i'm looking for something better. What's everyone runnin?

Yes, I know this thread has been on a while, but here is my two cents. I used to fix up old antique outboards years ago. I have recently advanced to racing engines of the "B" class variety. Now, I know some of you might find this as to be "off the wall", but I always used RYOBI weed-eater engine oil. It is the dark purple oil in the little 8 oz. bottles, sold at the hardware stores. This type of oil is good for high hour engines as it has very good lubricating properties. I also recommend Pennzoil as it actually has very good lubricating quality as well. How can one tell a good oil from lousy? Here's a simple, yet very affective method. First off, what does it smell like? Does it have a funny detergent like smell? If so, don't use it. If it smells more like an oily kerosene sent, it is probably good, as it is a real oil proven to do the job through time. Next, take a dab and place it on the tip of your index finger. Rub it against your thumb with pressure. If you can feel a slight bit of grip in a start/go slide of finger and thumb, it is a crappy oil. DON'T USE IT! .......Now, if it seems slippery without any grip, you've got a good oil! It is as simple as that. There are likely some other good products out there, and this is a good way to pick them out.

[zul8tr]

The discussion continues:

Even though Graham Bell's 2 Stroke Performance Tuning reference is for motor cycles it does contain some real life information on pre mix for 2 cycle engines as well as other techno. Chapter 8 Lubrication and Cooling discusses oil mix ratios vs power and 16:1 in the dyno tests (pg 168) prove to be the best Hp increase ratio for the two race bike 2 stroke engines tested.

http://iheartstella.com/resources/manuals/tuning/Graham-Bell-Two-Stroke-Performance-Tuning.pdf


No doubt water cooled is cooler running than air cooled but for sustained high rpms Mr. Bell states more oil in needed.

[lilwhirlwind]

Klotz Benol

[Tiller guy]

I was ready to switch to Pennzoil 100% synthetic until reading that they changed the formula. Is this true or is it still a really good oil?

[ctpdsr]

50-50 Blend Amsoil Dominator & Mercury Rejuvenate. For Vintage Merc race engines 16:1 minimum. More is better. I did not know the later was discontinued. Bought some at a dealer last fall. This stuff caught my eye because it resembled the trick 100% synthetic stuff Mercury sold in big jugs back in the late 1980's.

[Yellowjacket]

Why the 50/50 blend?? Just curious, not familiar with Dominator, what's its claim to fame???

[ctpdsr]

Nothing scientific, maybe I will go 75-25 since the Amsoil seems easier to find! **See the link below**

http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/motor-oil/2-stroke/dominator-synthetic-2-stroke-racing-oil/?code=TDRQT-EA

These guys know 2-stroke engines. The Amsoil HP Synthetic also works well on oil-injected V-6 Mercs. Can't speak for any other marine applications. The key on the old racers is more oil is better!

[Full Speed]

Which oil would you prefer:

Tornado (https://www.kroon-oil.com/en/catalogue/two-wheeler-products_two-stroke-motor-oils/777/tornado/60/), which is a 2-stroke oil that is 100% synthetic for high speed, heavy-duty air-cooled 2-stroke engines.

Or

Atlantic (https://www.kroon-oil.com/en/catalogue/marine-products_marine-two-stroke-motor-oils/486/atlantic-2t-outboard/8/), a 2-stroke oil based on premium base oils, a TC-W3 oil suitable for all 2-stroke outboard motors.



Or maybe a mix of both to obtain a semi synthetic oil
with better features for 'fast' water-cooled outboard engines?

[filthy phill]

Every time I think I have found the magic 2 stroke , I hear things about it to make me cringe and put that idea to bed.

even the cheapest 2 stroke oil out there if run at 25 to 1 is not going to harm any motor..

[Smokin' Joe]

Every time I think I have found the magic 2 stroke , I hear things about it to make me cringe and put that idea to bed.

even the cheapest 2 stroke oil out there if run at 25 to 1 is not going to harm any motor..


We run RedLine. A many-times national champion runs BRP (Rotax) XP.

[filthy phill]

XP ?
is that similar to XD ? or is this something else

[Smokin' Joe]

XP ?
is that similar to XD ? or is this something else

Designed for higher winding Rotax motors.

[filthy phill]

thanks joe. I had never heard of it before.

I have been toying with the idea of going to a fully synthetic oil for my outboards, and with fully synth being a bit thinner would run that at 40 to 1 rather than 50 to 1 ( I am thinking the crank needs more than the top end )

Not many fully synthetics around that have the tcw3 specs though.
But I have found a fully synthetic oil in the uk at a realy good price compared to marine branded names that I am seriously thinking about using..

what it realy boils down to is what exactly are we supposed to be looking for in a good oil ?
do we use the JASO FD, API TC ISO EGD specifications or the TC-W3 specifications, surely any oil that meets these TC-W3 standard should be good for any outboard motor. ?


the Label on the container that I have found says "5 Litres of Fully Synthetic Marine 2 Stroke Oil TC-W3" and lower down says " Product Specifications:API: TD NMMA: TC-W3" and its GREEN in colour.
here is another part of what is on the can..

A high performance Synthetic 2 Stroke Oil formulated for use in water cooled outboard engines using premix or injection systems.
Designed using powerful detergents to help give a clean burn and reduce engine deposits.
Suitable for use in Tohatsu, Mercury, Suzuki, Evinrude, Johnson, Mariner, Seagull, Selva, Yamaha Engines.

Question is , does this sound like a good enough oil for my evinrude 56 running at normal cruising speeds and the occasional wot throttle runs. ?
is the fully synthetic a better option than old fashioned mineral based oil for my motor ?

according to the specs its a good oil ?

[zul8tr]

thanks joe. I had never heard of it before.

I have been toying with the idea of going to a fully synthetic oil for my outboards, and with fully synth being a bit thinner would run that at 40 to 1 rather than 50 to 1 ( I am thinking the crank needs more than the top end )

Not many fully synthetics around that have the tcw3 specs though.
But I have found a fully synthetic oil in the uk at a realy good price compared to marine branded names that I am seriously thinking about using..

what it realy boils down to is what exactly are we supposed to be looking for in a good oil ?
do we use the JASO FD, API TC ISO EGD specifications or the TC-W3 specifications, surely any oil that meets these TC-W3 standard should be good for any outboard motor. ?


the Label on the container that I have found says "5 Litres of Fully Synthetic Marine 2 Stroke Oil TC-W3" and lower down says " Product Specifications:API: TD NMMA: TC-W3" and its GREEN in colour.
here is another part of what is on the can..

A high performance Synthetic 2 Stroke Oil formulated for use in water cooled outboard engines using premix or injection systems.
Designed using powerful detergents to help give a clean burn and reduce engine deposits.
Suitable for use in Tohatsu, Mercury, Suzuki, Evinrude, Johnson, Mariner, Seagull, Selva, Yamaha Engines.

Question is , does this sound like a good enough oil for my evinrude 56 running at normal cruising speeds and the occasional wot throttle runs. ?
is the fully synthetic a better option than old fashioned mineral based oil for my motor ?

according to the specs its a good oil ?

For your vintage '56 Erude service engine at cruise and some WOT any name brand name TCWIII will do you well. I use Pennzoil Marine XLF semi syn, burns fairly clean and I use it at 16:1 with E free gas in my vintage race engines that see 7000 and I have had them since the '70's and still mechanically in great shape. Higher revs need more oil and oil is cheaper than parts for me. For you 40:1 or 32:1 will do no harm with a quality brand TCWIII. IMO expensive 100% syn is not necessary for your service engine. Oils blended for Injection are thinner for modern engine requirements, I prefer the non injection higher viscosity oils for the vintage non fueli engines. Your choice.

[filthy phill]

Yeah I see what your saying about the thinner oil of the fully synthetic not realy being a benefit to the older type of 2 strokes.
I dont run the vro as dont like that and I prefer to run normally at 50 to 1 pre-mix, its ok for just running around at about 35 to 30mph, but when off the plane the smell of the old mercury premium
is something I am not too keen on.
I did have a couple of years ( a long while back) running motul smokelss 2 stroke outboard oil and it realy did not give off much smell, but that stuff is like twice the price of premium plus per gallon.
We get realy clobbered over here for 2 stroke oil and add the marine bit an up it goes by another 25%.

what I might do is get some of the oil I have been looking at today and see what its like , this one is a mineral based 2 stroke, its fairly cheap but has some very good reviews .
they will sell from 1 litre bottles to 1,000 litre tanks of it.
the particular oil company who makes it has some pretty decent customers, BMW, VOLVO, CUMMINS, Mercedes, massey ferguson, Renault etc, so it seems a pretty good pedigree behind it.

company is EXOL and the oils I am looking at are their MARINE TWO STROKE TC-W3 (M154) Amber colour, and their MARINE TWO STROKE TC-W3 (BLUE) ()

M298 Appearance- Dark blue
Specific Gravity @ 15.6°C- 0.880
Kinematic Viscosity @ 100°C -(cSt) 8.51
Flash Point (°C)- 120
.................................................. .....................................
M154 Appearance- Amber colour
Specific Gravity @ 15.6°C- 0.880
Kinematic Viscosity @ 100°C -(cSt) 8.51
Flash Point (°C)- 120

both oils seem to have exactly the same spec, I will be contacting Exol to find out what the differences are and ask if they have PTFE in the oils.

Both have the Tc-w3 and all the other NMMA API TD SPECS.

[zul8tr]

Yeah I see what your saying about the thinner oil of the fully synthetic not realy being a benefit to the older type of 2 strokes.
I dont run the vro as dont like that and I prefer to run normally at 50 to 1 pre-mix, its ok for just running around at about 35 to 30mph, but when off the plane the smell of the old mercury premium
is something I am not too keen on.
I did have a couple of years ( a long while back) running motul smokelss 2 stroke outboard oil and it realy did not give off much smell, but that stuff is like twice the price of premium plus per gallon.
We get realy clobbered over here for 2 stroke oil and add the marine bit an up it goes by another 25%.

what I might do is get some of the oil I have been looking at today and see what its like , this one is a mineral based 2 stroke, its fairly cheap but has some very good reviews .
they will sell from 1 litre bottles to 1,000 litre tanks of it.
the particular oil company who makes it has some pretty decent customers, BMW, VOLVO, CUMMINS, Mercedes, massey ferguson, Renault etc, so it seems a pretty good pedigree behind it.

company is EXOL and the oils I am looking at are their MARINE TWO STROKE TC-W3 (M154) Amber colour, and their MARINE TWO STROKE TC-W3 (BLUE) ()

M298 Appearance- Dark blue
Specific Gravity @ 15.6°C- 0.880
Kinematic Viscosity @ 100°C -(cSt) 8.51
Flash Point (°C)- 120
.................................................. .....................................
M154 Appearance- Amber colour
Specific Gravity @ 15.6°C- 0.880
Kinematic Viscosity @ 100°C -(cSt) 8.51
Flash Point (°C)- 120

both oils seem to have exactly the same spec, I will be contacting Exol to find out what the differences are and ask if they have PTFE in the oils.

Both have the Tc-w3 and all the other NMMA API TD SPECS.

PTFE? that Teflon additive in 2 stroke oil is new to me. I would prefer not to have that additive in there on a steel bore engine. Post what the diff is between 154 and 298. The last time I saw chem tests on the Mercury Premium Plus it was loaded with Molybdenum disulfide and some have complained it is a dirty sooty oil. I use to use it and it required their Quickleen additive they recommend to keep the carbon down. With the Pennzoil Marine XLF no issues burns very clean and I run 16:1 in the vintage race engines but high revs keeps it clean.

[Full Speed]

API TC is the only remaining, not revoked classification of the API Two-Cycle motor oil specifications. URL: wikipedia.org/wiki/API-TC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/API-TC)
Modern advanced two-stroke oil will use API TC+ (to impress ?)


I found these:

MPM Marine TC-W3 Oil 2-Stroke High Performance Biodegradable

API TC+
CEC L-33-T-82 > 80%
NMMA TC-W3

Specific Gravity @ 15°C - 0,897 kg/l
Kinematic Viscosity @ 40°C - 47 mm²/s
Kinematic Viscosity @ 100°C - 8,5 mm²/s
Viscosity Index- 170
Flash Point - 105 °C
Total Base nummer - 9,6 mgKOH/g



But this is what has always been used:

Kroon-Oil ATLANTIC 2T OUTBOARD

NMMA TC-W3

Specific Gravity @ 15°C - 0,870 kg/l
Kinematic Viscosity @ 40°C - 35,6 mm²/s
Kinematic Viscosity @ 100°C - 6,29 mm²/s
Viscosity Index- 126
Flash Point - 107 °C
Total Base nummer- 8,7 mgKOH/g





I am not yet sure I will switch...

[filthy phill]

Kroon brand is good oil, it is SHELL oil..
Kroon are just the marketing and sales of oils and lubricants in Holland and a good few other countries.

[Xpress2830]

I run Lucas 40:1 in a 95 stock OMC 50 twin. Actually gained 75 rpm.