Looking for D Utility-"ish" 16' Runabout Plans

[FlatRacer]

Okay, so I just bought an inline 6 Merc Mark 78A that I'm going to restore. I want to build a low profile 16' plywood runabout to hang it on.
I like the 16' Raveau, and would like to build something close to that but with a bow that's a little less blunt when viewed from the side. Something a little more like a Sid Craft, but retaining the sit down rather than kneel down interior configuration.

Picture something from the end of the wood era of California ski boats in the early '60s. Something that Patterson, or Wickens or Miller would have built had someone come to them asking for a 16' outboard hull.

Any ideas?

Eric

[wolfgang]

Currently building 16` by 67" racing runabout replica for Force 4-cyl with Chrysler racing lu. Double chine hull was sketched by myself with some basic design input by Ralph De Silva. Hull frames have been set up, Spruce for laminating longitudinals will be delivered today. Can give you frame contours or table, plus scantlings. Dimensions are sort of bastardized - sort of inches converted to mm. E-mail me at wbarthel@tubular.co.za or wbarthel@mweb.co.za. Rgds, Wolfgang

[Sturacer2]

Glen L had/has a 16' outboard ski boat plans, called "Stiletto" they may still have those available, it was a "california style" ski boat from the 60's. I had/have those plans somewhere (maybe) I would have to search for a while to see if I still have them. Quicker yet search Glen L boat plans.
Here's a link
https://www.boatdesigns.com/16-Stiletto-SK-ski-boat/products/361/

[Ed Hatch]

If you go to Boatsport.org there are PDF files of most of Hal Kelly's raceboat designs. You can download the PDF files of any design, take it to a commercial printer and have him scale up the full size patterns by whatever percentage is necessary to get to your 16 ft desired length.

[DeanFHobart]

Try "Joe Jet" 13' boat plans from "Svenson's Free Boat Plans. Could be stretched to 16'.

http://www.svensons.com/boat/?p=HydroPlanes/JetJoe

Good Luck...............

[John Schubert T*A*R*T]

Wow, the bow of the Joe Jet is a perefct copy of the Sid Crafts from the 50's.

[curbman]

bye

[DeanFHobart]

Wow, the bow of the Joe Jet is a perefct copy of the Sid Crafts from the 50's.


John,

I wonder who copied who......... William D. Jackson was a very good naval architect.

[John Schubert T*A*R*T]

John,

I wonder who copied who......... William D. Jackson was a very good naval architect.

I had known Sid from 1953 up through the 70's having raced his first 3 point hydro that he built for me in 1956 and his first tunnel that he built for me & team T*A*R*T & my father raced his first runabout with a KE7 in 1948. Because of this & having seen his boats through the years & that he was an engineer in the then air craft industry with many innovations, I can attest that that bow & shape of his boat was his. Sid would never copy as many did including Kelly. When Sid went to the 1955 Devils Lake nationals with Johnny Wehrle where Johnny was soundly beat by the Caulkins boats, Sid came home & immediately re-designed the bath tub runabout & thus is when the first Hornet came out. That test boat became my brothers. Even the Hornet had bow lines as the earlier boats did, but didn't look anything like the Caulkins. Thereafter the Sid's could beat the Caulkins as I believe Lee Sutter even had a Sid. In 1959 Johnny Schedel went to the nationals in your area, can't remember the exact place and won in "DU" with a Hornet.

[FlatRacer]

My dad built 3 of these, I still have the original plans. I have copied them.

I like this hull. How long is it, and could it handle a Mark 78A?

Eric

[FlatRacer]

This is the Raveau I like as far as layout and overall design, but I'd rather my boat have a more modern looking angular bow like the bow of the C7 utility raceboat in the bottom pic. BTW, can anyone tell me more about this hull? I don't remember where I got the pic from and I haven't been able to find it again.

[John Schubert T*A*R*T]

I like this hull. How long is it, and could it handle a Mark 78A?

Eric

The boat plans say it's 13'. I ran a MK75H clone that I built on a 13' Sid-Craft "D" Hornet pepro but had a difficult time tturning it because of high center of gravity of the motor. It had a 15" tower & 13" transom height. If you have a 20" tower on your 78A you'll have an even more difficult time turning unless you run it deep but then you'll be dragging the gear case which will be deep in the water. If I were you, I'd take those plans & stretch it out to 15' & be sure that I had a 15" drive shaft housing.

[DeanFHobart]

I had known Sid from 1953 up through the 70's having raced his first 3 point hydro that he built for me in 1956 and his first tunnel that he built for me & team T*A*R*T & my father raced his first runabout with a KE7 in 1948. Because of this & having seen his boats through the years & that he was an engineer in the then air craft industry with many innovations, I can attest that that bow & shape of his boat was his. Sid would never copy as many did including Kelly. When Sid went to the 1955 Devils Lake nationals with Johnny Wehrle where Johnny was soundly beat by the Caulkins boats, Sid came home & immediately re-designed the bath tub runabout & thus is when the first Hornet came out. That test boat became my brothers. Even the Hornet had bow lines as the earlier boats did, but didn't look anything like the Caulkins. Thereafter the Sid's could beat the Caulkins as I believe Lee Sutter even had a Sid. In 1959 Johnny Schedel went to the nationals in your area, can't remember the exact place and won in "DU" with a Hornet.

John,

Cool history...... Lee did have a Caulkins.... then he got a Sid.

The 1959 SO Nationals were at Green Lake, which is right in the center of Seattle.

[curbman]

bye

[Ray Downes]

[I have a feeling I'm going to regret posting this but ...]

Hi FlatRacer;

I originally had a Mark 78 (long) on my second generation Raveau Bomb. Yes it looked nice, but didn't come close to turning the speeds I wanted. High 30's maybe, and my alum/Honda 50 rig, which topped out at 39.6GPS ran about neck & neck with it (the horrors!):


http://zesent.org/images/rv/boats.jpg

Could have been a weak motor ... flat bottom versus Bob's design, weights, etc. Whatever. It's gone and the Raveau is now pushed by a Yammie 90 (repeat, the horrors!). 56.6MPH GPS so far, with my fatazz in the seat.

[FlatRacer]

Thanks for the insight, Ray. Yeah, I wouldn't expect the Mark 78 to push it very fast because after all, it's only supposed to make 70hp. I'd guess the aluminum boat would be quite a bit lighter than the Raveau.

I'm not really looking to get that much speed out of the rig anyway. If I feel the need for speed, I'd just dump the Biesemeyer in the lake and terrorize the neighbors! Since I have the raceboat, I don't feel the need to extract every last mph out of our other boats. I have an old 18' V-drive Donzi that has a very mild 200 hp 5.0 Ford in it. It only goes 52 mph. I could easily get a lot more speed out of it with a stout small block, but why? It skis all day on a tank of gas, and it's fast enough for 99% of my passengers.

No, I'm looking for more of a relaxing early morning, after dinner smooth "glide across the glassy water" experience out of it. Although I am curious to know if it would be possible to build a FrankenMerc out of a 150 powerhead hidden inside a Mark 78A cowl (???)

Ray, while I have you "on the line", can I ask you, does your Raveau have a V bottom, and if so, do you happen to know what the deadrise angle is? Just curious.

Eric

[Ray Downes]

Thanks for the insight, Ray. Yeah, I wouldn't expect the Mark 78 to push it very fast because after all, it's only supposed to make 70hp. I'd guess the aluminum boat would be quite a bit lighter that the Raveau.
I estimated the two boats to be about 175lbs apart, if I remember correctly.

I'm looking for more of a relaxing early morning, after dinner smooth "glide across the glassy water" experience out of it.
The Raveau / Mark 78 package was very much a "glide across the glassy water" sensation, I have to admit.

Although I am curious to know if it would be possible to build a FrankenMerc out of a 150 powerhead hidden inside a Mark 78A cowl?
Looks like those who are very much in the know say no - wish I had their (and your) skills in those departments! I might, down the road, change power back to an inline, but I would need to build a knowledge base / comfort-level first.
Ray, while I have you "on the line", can I ask you, does your Raveau have a V bottom, and if so, do you happen to know what the deadrise angle is? Just curious.

Eric

Eric, I'll try and get you a rough number this weekend (trailer bunks are in the way).

[John Schubert T*A*R*T]

I estimated the two boats to be about 175lbs apart, if I remember correctly.

The Raveau / Mark 78 package was very much a "glide across the glassy water" sensation, I have to admit.

Looks like those who are very much in the know say no - wish I had their (and your) skills in those departments! I might, down the road, change power back to an inline, but I would need to build a knowledge base / comfort-level first.

Eric, I'll try and get you a rough number this weekend (trailer bunks are in the way).

Here are a couple of pictures of the way Bob Walwork has built the bottoms of his current Raveaus.

[Ray Downes]

Daytona John also posted a Raveau bottom picture in a thread over on the "John's Old Mercury" forum:

http://johnsoldmercurysite.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=408

If you're willing to dig, there are Raveau pictures buried in various areas within the Vintage Race Boat Shop website photo archive:

http://www.vintageraceboatshop.com/VintageEventPhotos.htm

[Ron Hill]

This is the Raveau I like as far as layout and overall design, but I'd rather my boat have a more modern looking angular bow like the bow of the C7 utility raceboat in the bottom pic. BTW, can anyone tell me more about this hull? I don't remember where I got the pic from and I haven't been able to find it again.

I sometimes amaze myself....But the C7 was built by Wade Terrill for Pete DeLackner. I don't think Pete ever got around to running it and he sold it to Steve Cox. Steve called me and wanted a prop, and because I probably got him into racing fifty years ago, I gave him a prop or two.

He drove it around the lake a few times and sold it.

I can say this, it is basically a SCALED up De Silva and Dave Byran has all the frame patterns for DeSilva runabouts. Ralph DeSilva is about 90 or 92, living in Georgia, he'd probably help anyone with design work.

Tim Webber and Ralph are close. Email me and I'll forward it to Tim...

C-205 is an 11 foot DeSilva. This is Sparks, Nevada, 1966. 96-C is me in a Hill Runabout....one of the 25 or more boats my dad and I built.

19-C is a 13 foot DeSilva.

[Ray Downes]

Ray, while I have you "on the line", can I ask you, does your Raveau have a V bottom, and if so, do you happen to know what the deadrise angle is? Just curious.

Eric

Since the bunk extends past the transom, I couldn't get a physical measurement, and instead used a photograph:

http://zesent.org/images/rb.jpg

I came up with 12.2 degrees keel to chine.The hull design is more complex that that lone number, as you can see. Sorry, didn't have the means to measure more accurately.

[FlatRacer]

Cool pic, Ray. So it looks like each half of the bottom consists of three longitudinal steps in lieu of a flat surface with strakes. I wonder how much the steps overlap each other.

Eric

[wolfgang]

Based on this and other photos of the Walsted builds, I would guesstimate about 3 inches wide longitudinals in the overlap area. But, to me it appears that the longitudinal steps are the wrong way `round, thereby creating an awful lot of wetted area. Just compare with the spray rails (lift strakes) arrangement on "standard" Vee-bottomed hulls - i.e. bottom outline should be more convex than concave.

[Ray Downes]

FlatRacer, a question for you - have you worked out a materials cost estimate?

[FlatRacer]

to me it appears that the longitudinal steps are the wrong way `round, thereby creating an awful lot of wetted area. Just compare with the spray rails (lift strakes) arrangement on "standard" Vee-bottomed hulls - i.e. bottom outline should be more convex than concave.

Wofgang, I'd have to disagree. Since the purpose of lifting strakes is to provide a (more or less) horizontal planing surface to lift the boat higher out of the water than it would normally be, planing solely on the flat surface of the V shaped bottom, which it does partially by capturing the water and preventing it from "squirting" outward past the chines, I'd say Walwork's overlap design effectively accomplishes that. And bottom concavity is not necessarily a bad thing.

I'm not a Naval architect, but it seems logical to me.

You can also see the overlap design in this shot on page 73 of the Wooden Boat magazine article:
http://www.woodenboat-digital.com/woodenboat/20110304?pg=82#pg82

Eric

[FlatRacer]

FlatRacer, a question for you - have you worked out a materials cost estimate?

No. I'm toying with different ideas, including having a glass hull laid up onto which I can build a wood deck. Very '60s "SK style."
Whatever I build though, I'm going to have to buy my wife that Wave Runner she's been asking for before I add another boat to the fleet!

Eric

[wolfgang]

Wofgang, I'd have to disagree. Since the purpose of lifting strakes is to provide a (more or less) horizontal planing surface to lift the boat higher out of the water than it would normally be, planing solely on the flat surface of the V shaped bottom, which it does partially by capturing the water and preventing it from "squirting" outward past the chines, I'd say Walwork's overlap design effectively accomplishes that. And bottom concavity is not necessarily a bad thing.

I'm not a Naval architect, but it seems logical to me.

You can also see the overlap design in this shot on page 73 of the Wooden Boat magazine article:
http://www.woodenboat-digital.com/woodenboat/20110304?pg=82#pg82

Eric
Eric, lifting strakes (among other purposes) are utilised to limit the wetted surface(s) of the hull. The Walsted Vee-bottom appears to propagate the water to the surfaces above the lifting strakes. For detailed theory, refer Renato Levi`s :Dhows to Deltas". Unfortunately, book is still copyrighted. I do not want to highjack this thread with our discussion, so please write me an e-mail - wbarthel@tubular.co.za. rgds

[FlatRacer]

I'll concede that Walwork's design doesn't have what we would think of as "normal" or "traditional" strakes which have both horizontal and vertical elements. But why would the lack of a vertical element result in more wetted surface and consequently less lift? Curious.

Eric

[Ray Downes]

Eric, lifting strakes (among other purposes) are utilised to limit the wetted surface(s) of the hull. The Walsted Vee-bottom appears to propagate the water to the surfaces above the lifting strakes. For detailed theory, refer Renato Levi`s :Dhows to Deltas". Unfortunately, book is still copyrighted. I do not want to highjack this thread with our discussion, so please write me an e-mail - wbarthel@tubular.co.za. rgds

I'm under the impression that cleaner flow (less turbulance and air bubbles) occurs with the z-plane design.

[FlatRacer]

I'm under the impression that cleaner flow (less turbulance and air bubbles) occurs with the z-plane design.

I would have thought so. "Z-Plane" is a good name for it!

[FlatRacer]

Okay, I get that vertical elements on strakes and clean crisp edges on the strakes and chines will keep water from wrapping around to the next step up on the hull surface resulting in reduced wetted surface and drag.

It does however look like the "Z-Plane" overlap design is a good compromise for a recreational hull when ultimate speed is less of a goal than ride comfort, and especially ease of construction in plywood. After all, if top end speed was a big concern, the hull would have a padded keel, no?

Ray, how far forward does the keel notch extend from the transom to the aft section of the keel? I'm guessing this serves the same purpose as a setback bracket, allowing the motor to be raised up a bit. Right?

Eric

[Ray Downes]

Ray, how far forward does the keel notch extend from the transom to the aft section of the keel?
6 inches
I'm guessing this serves the same purpose as a setback bracket, allowing the motor to be raised up a bit. Right?

Eric

Hi Eric - that's what I've read and been told.