would like your opinion please

[david harrell]

for a long time now i have wanted to start an '' official'' boat building bussiness insted of just building for myself and friends which i have done since the early '70s. i want to build from the best marine woods covered with exotic vaneeres [you would be amazed at the variaty of graining and colors] and top grade hardware. they would be sealed in and out with deep penatrating epoxy and clear fiberglass and varnish on the outside. they would be hi-performance vee bottems something like the old hydrostream vectors. they would be light weight [i think i can build a 16' at around 300lbs] and yet built tough using hydroplane style framing. the concept is this. build fast lightweight boats that get great performance from smaller outboards [gas prices and all] with massive wow factor aperance for the commen market. my question is this. do you think the performance boating comunity would support such a bussiness and would concider purchesing such a boat or would my time be better spent relearning to spell.

thanks for your opinion
david harrell

[russhill]

Sponds like you've really got some good product ideas. BUT---What's your business background? What is your marketing plan, including your market research? How is your financing?

Product represents about 1/4 of the business. The other stuff is 3/4

[stupidbaker57]

I have almost finished building my second Glen L boat called the Pee Wee. It's an 8 foot runabout mostly for kids to use with an outboard motor under 10 hp. The first one was for my grandson and it cost around $250 with fiberglassing, paint and varnish.
I'm building the second one to sell in unfinshed (no paint) condition. Cost to build to that point for me is just short of $100. I will be asking $250. It takes me 40 hours or so to build.
When it sells, I'll post my results of the sale.

[david harrell]

well the bussness plan is to keep it simple simple simple. don't wan't to get to a point where i have to sell large numbers of boat's just to stay afloat [pun intended] unless demand called for it. talking with a bussness planer already. their crazy about cluttering things up. give me a good accoutent and a good legal and i'll do the rest. ran construction crews for decades. was a sub-contractor untill the industry colapst. always had more work than i could handle due to my work ethic and anal retentive quality standerds. many of my costumers said they woulden't go with anyone else. this is part of my market reserch along with being around performance all my lifeand keeping an eye on boating sales figures witch is back on the rise. marketing will be websites like this. boat showes of witch there are a ton around in the southeast. word of mouth has always worked very well for me in the past and my boats have always drawn a lot of interest wherever they go.and these will be the best looking so far by a long shot. funding is my biggest issue

[david harrell]

you just gave me a flashback to '75 when my buddy and i built a pee wee in his living room. his mom was nun to happy about that. lol if i rember right aren't those less than 8 foot. like 7'. totaly agree with the line at the end of your post

[david harrell]

come on guys. 70 plus views and only two chimed in. don't worry you won't hurt my feelings.

[Yellowjacket]

Lots of things to figure out here and lots of ways to look at it.

It sounds like you have a design in your head, but not on paper (or electrons) yet. Probably worth your time and effort to draw or CAD model what you want to build first. Then you can figure the material costs and estimate the time to build.

Your expenses are more than just time and materials. You're going to have to take this to boat shows and advertise as well as build a web presence. Then also there is going to be product liability insurance, which could easily be the killer. This is a light fast boat and if it is mishandled it's going to dump the driver in a heartbeat. That might make geting insurance a bit tougher. I'm amazed sometimes at what gets sold in terms of speed and performance in bass boats. If I was selling something like that or insuring it be terrified somebody will get killed and then sue because the boat was shown to be unstable. Racers don't hold builders responsible if a boat blows over, the public does. What ever rating you put on it in terms of motor you're going to have to defend in court.

You should be able to charge more for you boat than a glass boat popped out of a mold, but it's going to cost you more to make it due to the higher labor content.

The boat you want to do is very attractive (I'd probably buy one and think it was really neat) and I think it makes a lot of sense, but your market is somewhat limited because it's going to be a high maintenance boat. Lots of buyers want a fun boat that is zero maintenance and this probably isn't going to be that at all. I know there's a lot less maintenance than with old fashioned wood boats, but still, there's wood in there and if it doesn't stay dry it's going to be a mess. Also, the construction you are doing may not be as light as you think. The public will beat the heck out of a boat and if you don't make it strong it will just fall apart. Racers run stuff hard, but they understand the machinery and don't usually beat it up. Lake racers put more wear and tear on a boat in a weekend than a racer would in a year. Not that you can't make it work, but just say'n it's gotta be tough too...

On the plus side the total rig, in terms of mph/$ is going to be pretty good. You might have a bit more in boat cost than a similar size glass boat, but a smaller motor is going to cost a whole bunch less and, when you add in the cost of gas it looks pretty darn attractive.

So, all said, it could work, but there are a lot of things that have to be addressed, and overall it isn't going to be easy.

Where I'd start is get Jim Russels' design program and work out the design of the bottom first. After you spec the bottom you need to then make a CAD model of the boat you want to build. From the CAD model you will be able to accurately calc weights and material costs and work on styling the topsides (it's gotta look sexy or it isn't going to sell either). Actually not a bad time to get started, you can build a mule this year and test it enough to get it all figured out. Then over the winter you can build a prototype and show boat and start taking orders next year.

Long post and lots of rambing thougths, but you asked for it.

[david harrell]

thanks for your input. great stuff and i agree with all of it. have made a first serious drawing [old school style] to scale but will be making a larger one for accuracy before putting to wood. would like to try cad. thanks for the recomend. have done a material takeoff that i think is pretty close. i'll admit the weight is a guess based on other hulls iv'e built and some guesstamating on the extra stuff. i've crunched the numbers and unless i screwed up it looks like i should be able to offer them with trailer and a cover for around $1000 per foot give or take depending on size. i hope to offer a 14', 16', and 18' i've given the legal and safty issues a lot of thought too. the plan is test with differant size motors to find max safe speed for the hull and dial back the hp rating a bit from there. not looking to beat the stv's and such. also plan to give explisit max speed ratings for each hull. you go past there and your on your own. point blank. on another note i also plan to have no two boats look alike. i think that would be fun.

thanks again for your input.
david harrell

[Bill Van Steenwyk]

Coast Guard reguirements regards both the boat and you if you are not aware of it (or your LLC, and in this litigous society I would not market a boat without having one, especially a high-performance type).. Some years ago (70's) I built a few Hydro's for sale and was surprised to find out that even with that limited amount of production, I had to meet certain CG regs regards being considered a mfgr of boats. Not a lot of trouble, but worth checking into as there are probably more regs now, and if one of your customers has a problem on the water, no matter how small and Water Patrol or similar is involved, expect them at your door shortly.

[david harrell]

good point. i'll have to update my knowlage of the cg reg's and work them in. i'm chomping at the bit to start building but the way things are rolling it will probibly be next year bofore i get to make dust so there time to iron out details. in the meantime my garage empty if anyone has any ideas [hint hint].

[Bill Van Steenwyk]

You also might want to check with your insurance person about product or personal liability insurance. You never know how stupid folks can be till they hurt themselves in something you built or repaired and then you find everything you have worked for at risk. That is one of the benefits of an LLC. Possibly you have a friend who is a lawyer, or the internet can be a big help in this area also.

When I went in business for myself 30+ years ago, if I had known all the possible pitfalls just liability wise I might have thought twice or even more times.. Ignorance can be bliss though, at least for awhile. It is a wonder in this day and time anyone wants to take the risk anymore, even with something that seems so simple as you are thinking about.

Not in any way trying to discourage you, in fact the opposite, but it is always better to know going in to something how to prepare and protect yourself from someone doing something stupid with something you built and sold.

[Yellowjacket]

Another thought is that with a CAD model of the boat you can really do wonders in terms of getting patterns, prints and having parts cut with a CNC router or waterjet. I work with CAD every day and the things we do with it are amazing. I've modeled a D class runabout and it wasn't difficult at all. The ability to have all the pieces fit properly and easily is pretty cool. I think that you'd be crazy not to do it that way.

[david harrell]

i hear ya on the liabilaty ins. had to have it as a aub contractor.been dreading that number.it wasn't to bad for contracting but i expect it will be much worse for this. would love to work cad tied cnc. a cnc will be way to expencive for my start up budget so i will be using a hnc machine [human navigated cutter.]. lol. i will be using patterns and router in the begining. got quite good at that from my custom stair building days. keep this stuff coming guys. i'm loving it.

thanks
david

[david harrell]

i hear ya on the liabilaty ins. had to have it as a aub contractor.been dreading that number.it wasn't to bad for contracting but i expect it will be much worse for this. would love to work cad tied cnc. a cnc will be way to expencive for my start up budget so i will be using a hnc machine [human navigated cutter.]. lol. i will be using patterns and router in the begining. got quite good at that from my custom stair building days. keep this stuff coming guys. i'm loving it.

thanks
david

[david harrell]

moderator is holding my last post????

[Yellowjacket]

I had some trouble posting yesterday.. Don't know why but I doubt it's being held. I'd try to repost it.

[david harrell]

i hear ya on the ins. wasn't to bad for sub contracting but expect it will be worse with this. due to budget i will have to use hnc [human navegated cutter].lol. patterns and router. got plenty of exp with that from my custom stair building days.

[david harrell]

oh yea, definatly want to get into cad tho

[Yellowjacket]

When I was first getting started on doing things for myself in CAD I looked at a number of programs. At work I have Solid Edge, which is a good program, but costs $5k for a seat and $1200/year for maintenance. I've also used and have the Autodesk Inventor program, and it's similar to most all the others, they all take some time to learn, but once you learn one you can work any of them. The only thing at that point is using the menus.

If you are going to do it as a business you will need to make an investment in a good program.

A good friend turned me on to very inexpensive program called Design CAD Max that is actually a very good tool. It's really inexpensive ($100) for the 3d CAD system, don't bother with the 2d designer, the Max version does what you want, it's a full 3d program. Not as sexy as programs like ProE or Solidworks, but it has everything that you need and it does surfacing really well. If I was doing this as a startup I'd get that tool in a heartbeat. For a hundred bucks, you can't go wrong. I'm surprised this tool hasn't gone viral. You can do what you need to do for a pittance of what it costs for other programs.

http://imsidesign.com/Products/DesignCADSeries/tabid/321/Default.aspx

[david harrell]

wow! great info. thanks. will definatly check it out.

[Yellowjacket]

I was just looking, Fry's has DesignCAD 3D Max for 59.95...

There well may be other CAD programs that are as cheap or better, but I know that this program does surfaces very well and that's what you need if you are doing a boat. I don't recall if it has assemblies and part files separately, but I think it does. You need that feature if you want to easily break the finished design down and make drawings of each part.

[david harrell]

i am loving all the input and thank you for all your tips however we are getting away from the original question which is do you think the performance boeting communaty will support this kind of bussiness. i ask this because i know the old maitinance fears of wooden boats still exist even tho the reasons for them do not

[chris3298]

My biggest problem with downloading a free cad program was how the hell you work the dam thing? I really don't know if all that cad is necessary. I asked a guy one time about his tricked out rock crawling buggy did he use cad to draw it up he said no and he said that he was asked that question a lot though. I mean this thing was freaking SICK all kinds of crazy bends with the tubing.

I personally want to build my own aluminum flat boat one day, which I hope is soon, saving for a welder now, my plans are to find a boat I like copy a few things and throw a few of my own ideas into it. I joined a boat building forum which can't remember the name of and people were like you needs this cad program and this and that I go so frustrated with the program which I feel I don't need. I think it BS really. I'm amazed how many rock crawling guys and boat builders around Louisiana that I have heard from others that don't use a cad program.

I say if you have your plans how to make the boat then you're set, go for it, if you really have been building boats for you are friends for a while then why you need a cad program?

[david harrell]

well nobody ''needs'' cad and i'm no expert on it. it's just suposed to make drafting easerand faster. makes making changes easer. say i wanted to change the curve of a deck. i pull up the old drawings point and click the new line. the cad makes all the dementions changes automaticly then a few more clicks and the info is sent to the cnc machine and within less than an hour you have the new parts ready to put together.

[Yellowjacket]

Well Dave, that's the idea, and sometimes it does work that way too!!

The bottom line is that you can build it in the computer, know what it will weigh, know where the CG will be and, if you use a good tool like Jim Russels design program you will have a real good idea of the stability, the top speed and what it will look like when it is done.

You would have to build a half a dozen boats to get even close to as good a boat that you will get using the tools that are available today.

If you spend less than $500 in computer tools and some time will yield a really capable boat the first time out. If you look at what it would cost you to do each iteration and home in on an acceptable design it is far less expensive to do it this way.

When you go to produce it, the parts come out of the router or waterjet table ready to assemble, all the same and everything fits right. Every time.

Do you have to do it in CAD today? No, but you would be crazy not to. If you know what you are doing and have somebody that can use CAD then it is a faster and better way to do it. No question about it.

Most free CAD programs don't have any instruction or tell you how to use them, so it's really easy to get frustrated and give up on the idea of using them. The basic idea of all modeling programs is to define things like plane shapes or surfaces and then join them to form surfaces that are the shape you want. Without either a knowledge of how modeling works or some good tutorials it's going to take some time to learn how to use it. Just because it isn't easy doesn't mean it isn't worth it or the right way to do it, you just have to stick with it and learn to use the tool.

[david harrell]

i agree with you yellow. many factors affect the performance and safety of faster boats. definatly will go cad and refine my designe from the get go. may i ask what you designe on yours? since they have programs that can tell me things like lift points and cg that alone will save me a lot of headaches.

[chris3298]

Yellowjacket I find that certain things can't be downloaded onto my apple mac book pro computer is there cad programs that will download? I guess I shouldn't really right off cad, who knows maybe I'll try it again but doesn't seem worth it in my case if I want to build one boat well I guess it would be good but I wouldn't want to spend the money all on a cnc machine to cut it all out for one boat.

[Yellowjacket]

Chris, you are wasting your time with an Apple machine. Essentially all of the CAD programs are set up to run on Windows. Some folks run an windows emulator but I don't know anybody who is running a serious CAD program on an Apple machine. Sorry, but that's just the way it is.

David, we design gas turbine engines. Here are a couple of parts that we do on a daily basis. Parts like these compressors and the inlet housings are complex items that are machined or cast. These comressors are 5 axis milled from titanium. The inlet housing is investment cast in aluminum.

Here's an example of a boat in CAD that most here can relate to. It's a model in progress of a B&H D mod runabout that I'm working on. I've done the top framing and decking and am working on the bottom framing and will skin it after that. I've cut back the skin on the deck on one side so the framing is visible. All that is left is the cross frame below the driver's knees, the forward battens and one cross frame ahead of the cockpit.

[GeoffArcher]

Good Morning,

I started a small boat manufacturing company about one year ago, and I figured I could share with you what I've learned along the way. Nothing spectacular, but to be a "legal" and legitimate boat builder, you'll need to jump through a few hoops.

1. Form a business entity - LLC or a corporation to protect yourself in the event of product liability issues/lawsuits. LLC is the simplest and generally the easiest/cheapest to form. All profits/losses are direct pass-through to you as the owner. I have multiple LLC's for various projects and wouldn't dream of doing it any other way.

2. Apply for a USCG MIC - Manufacturers Identification Code. They will award you a code that becomes part of your hull identification number. The first three letters always identify the builder. They may try and tell you to build one first, register it in your home state as a "backyard boat builder", then they will award you a MIC. I called BS on that and just applied. I've attached the one page application at the very bottom of the post.

3. Build USCG Legal Boats - I see there has been some discussion about motors. This can always be tricky, because people want to go fast. We all know that big motors can cause big problems. The USCG process for rating motor capacity is something of a white unicorn. 90 degree turns at WOT, slalom courses at WOT, blah, blah, blah. Guys that I have spoken to in the industry have NEVER seen this done and generally follow the guidelines described earlier in the thread. Find the maximum safe motor capacity as the builder, then back it off a notch or two. Your capacity sticker should indicate your maximum motor capacity. If someone exceeds the rated capacity after you sell them a boat, its on them. Flotation foam is required for any boat under 20 feet in length. You'll need to do some calculations to determine the amount of foam required, or just go with your instincts. No foam means non-compliance and potential liability.

Here's a link to the USCG Boatbuilder's Handbook. This is the document to follow to keep yourself out of trouible. http://www.uscgboating.org/regulations/boatbuilder_s_handbook/downloads.aspx

4. Marketing, Advertising and Networking - This has been touched on already, but it's a critical part of any business. Doesn't matter if you build the best boat on the planet if nobody knows you're out there. BRF and other websites are a great venue, but you'll need to consider boat shows, online and print media, direct mailers, etc., etc. More is better and keeps folks talking and interested.

Those are just some of the major considerations from my personal experience and yours may differ. I don't profess to be an expert. My company is part hobby and part business, as I'm fortunate enough to have been in public safety for 23 years. This will be my retirement business and I have realistic expectations about making money. They say the quickest way to make a million dollars as a boat builder is to start with 2 million!

In the year since I've started, we've built 5 boats. I recently purchased another mold to add to the product line. I've sold one boat to a gentleman in Texas. It was a custom order and worked out well for everybody. The other four are in the Domn8er Powerboats showroom in Lake Havasu City, AZ, waiting for buyers. The money isn't flowing like it once was, but things are getting better. We'll have them all out at the Havasu boat show April 20-22, as well as Desert Storm. Marketing, marketing, marketing.....

I don't want to drone on, and by no means is the list above all-inclusive. If you have any questions or want to chat about anything, please feel free to drop me an email at twisted@twistedliquidmarine.com. You can also give me a call at 702-521-5773. Anything I can offer to help is on the table.

Also, thanks to Ron and Ted for having a site like this, where these discussions can take place.

Respectfully,

Geoff Archer
Twisted Liquid Marine, LLC
P.O. Box 2361
Lake Havasu City, AZ 86405
888-521-4626 Toll Free
702-521-5773 Mobile
www.TwistedLiquidMarine.com

[david harrell]

good morning all,

to yellowjacket==SOLD. if someone asked me to pencil and paper one of those turbine blades i think i would just turn around and go home.lol. just so i'm clear on this the cad will tell me how much lift i will get and where at a given speed right? by any chance ar you mr. b&h ?

to geoffarcher,
went to the uscg site some time back to see how they figure hp rating. it just gave me a headache. i am a bit concernd that a light boat will get to low a rating for most of us but as you stated this may work out as a plus from a leagal point of view. was planning a lllc. just not to that point yet as it is early in the prosses . that's why i'm lovin al this input now BEFORE i hang myself.lol. got lot's of marcketing ideas from the standerd stuff to shooting the curl on a sunday afternoon. btw say hi to the colorado for me. back in 1970 i lived in bullhead city and that's where i saw my first boat races and been hooked on the sport ever since. thanks again for all thiss great info.

david harrell

[david harrell]

sweet boat by the way hope you sell a lot of them

[Yellowjacket]

good morning all,

to yellowjacket==SOLD. if someone asked me to pencil and paper one of those turbine blades i think i would just turn around and go home.lol. just so i'm clear on this the cad will tell me how much lift i will get and where at a given speed right? by any chance ar you mr. b&h?

David, I only have an old B&H so I have something to measure to make the model. The B&H guys are still around and I've talked to them, but they are pretty much retired.

The model will let you get weights and center of gravity information, as well as calcualte stress if you have somebody that can do stress analysis for you.

In order to precict lift, trim, stability speed and other things you need a tool like Jim Russels program. Here is a link to this tool.

http://www.aeromarineresearch.com/vbdp.html

Like I said, if you are designing from scratch or even modding an existing hull shape you need to be able to evaluate where you are going to be. If this is a business you need to minimize your time, cost and number of iterations that it's going to take to develop your product. I don't know of any other program that can do this other than Jim's.

[david harrell]

that's the ticket but be forwarned my anti-virus blocked a trojan horse

[chris3298]

Chris, you are wasting your time with an Apple machine. Essentially all of the CAD programs are set up to run on Windows. Some folks run an windows emulator but I don't know anybody who is running a serious CAD program on an Apple machine. Sorry, but that's just the way it is.

David, we design gas turbine engines. Here are a couple of parts that we do on a daily basis. Parts like these compressors and the inlet housings are complex items that are machined or cast. These comressors are 5 axis milled from titanium. The inlet housing is investment cast in aluminum.

Here's an example of a boat in CAD that most here can relate to. It's a model in progress of a B&H D mod runabout that I'm working on. I've done the top framing and decking and am working on the bottom framing and will skin it after that. I've cut back the skin on the deck on one side so the framing is visible. All that is left is the cross frame below the driver's knees, the forward battens and one cross frame ahead of the cockpit.

Ok I'll shut up and say i need to learn to use cad, just stinks my apple isn't worth a darn to use the cad program. I've had other computers that had windows but gave me lots of problems and this one hasn't given me any at all.

I thought there was a way to put windows on an apple? if so could i then download the cad program?

Geoff those are some really nice little boats, kinda reminds me of that Biel that i have seen on youtube with the 130 yamaha on it.

[boatmark59]

Dave, it sounds like an interesting project. Sounds a lot like something I have thought about building for myself. A lot of good points have already been posted. Some more to think about.

Insurance: Not only the liability coverage already discussed, but the insurability of the finished product. Most of the mainstream companies will, at least initially, shy away from this. You need to talk to some of the specialty companies about their underwriting guidelines. You may need to adjust some things to meet them. And they will definitely want the boat to meet USCG / ABYC guidelines. Your customers need to insure it, even if only for liability.

Financing: You stated a target of 1k per foot. As things like this tend to grow both from the builder, and the customer additions, this is inching past 20k unit. As most of your buyers will see this as a really cool toy, it will likely be a cash sale. Being able to get it financed will open up the market, so you need to do the same research with the marine lenders to see at what point they will consider writing paper on them.

Computers: Take the time to become proficient in computer design. My degree is in Yacht & Marine Design (although I don't make a living that way) and althought I am proficient in the old pencil ways, I would never do it that way. Their are many books on every program, and you can take classes at any University or Trade School that teaches Industrial Design. Also, the software companies offer in house training. The $ I spent for four days of intense training on Rhino was invaluable. I use AutoCAD, Solidworks and Rhino . . . but the second two are too expensive for a start-up.

Marketing: How do you plan to market these boats. Word of mouth, and people seeing one at the lake only go so far. Web presence, boat shows, etc. cost time and money. Building a boat is relatively easy. . . . building a BRAND is both expensive and time consuming. These indirect costs need to factor into your initial plan.

I am certainly not trying to be a downer, or discouraging. Just stressing that it is a tough endevour to turn fun hobby boat building into a viable business. It is imperitive that you cost out the entire project to a very fine level. Know at what point your direct costs, and indirect costs equal break-even. And at what growth break-even becomes profitable living.

At the same time a labor study needs to determine what volume will meet these goals. Remember, until there is staff, all the time you spend on these other issues is time you are not building a boat.

Good Luck - Despite all the realities we are trying to impart, every boat builder out there had to start with their first boat . . . .

[david harrell]

my thinking is to be like the early checkmate or baja co's however i realize modern times have modern concerns. started this forum to help try to determan if i could sell these wooden boats at a sustainable level.

[david harrell]

a little funny about insuring boats. when i was 14 my mother bought me a '72 checkmate mx16 with a 125 johnson. we then went to her ins co. the agent said ''you want me to ins a 14 year old boy in a 60+ mph boat'' and started to laugh. my mother looked at me and said ''well...... be carefull''.

[chris3298]

a little funny about insuring boats. when i was 14 my mother bought me a '72 checkmate mx16 with a 125 johnson. we then went to her ins co. the agent said ''you want me to ins a 14 year old boy in a 60+ mph boat'' and started to laugh. my mother looked at me and said ''well...... be carefull''.


Dam you sure do have a cool mom, you know about whether people want a wooden boat it really is a ruff call, do these boats last a long time what is the up keep on wood?

[boatmark59]

a little funny about insuring boats. when i was 14 my mother bought me a '72 checkmate mx16 with a 125 johnson. we then went to her ins co. the agent said ''you want me to ins a 14 year old boy in a 60+ mph boat'' and started to laugh. my mother looked at me and said ''well...... be carefull''.

:D:D David, I know what you mean. I shudder think of things I did in my teens and lived to tell about. The thing I find funny now is that it would never have occured to me to climb into my 65mph raceboat without full safety gear and chase boat . . . but at work during the week I would think nothing of running 85mph "pleasure" boats with only a t-shirt and a smile. Not too smart looking back on it now . . . .

[stupidbaker57]

David,
I just finished building a Glen L Pee Wee boat that I built to sell. It takes me 30 hours and $100 to build. I'm asking $250. The inside is painted, but the rest is to be done by the owner. The only person interested in buying it wanted to know if it could be rowed. I am now building row boats.:confused:

[PIP]

I've been in business for about 11 years, with an insurance agency, and have worked previously in fiberglass boat repair. Real quick;

1)keep overhead low. I cannot stress this enough. Do what you can yourself, until you can plan on moving x numbere of widgets every month. If you only sell two or three a month, than that is actually a nice living for a guy by himself. I see so many of my customers that have businesses fail, because they can't make payroll, and rent, and workers comp premiums, and insurance in general.

2)i would consider marketing this to the hobbyist, as a plain but finished hull. In other words, a boat that is ready for a guy to put together and mount the motor, steering, seats, the way he/she wants. I would sell it as a finished hull. I think a lot of people would be into that. To use your example, imagine a company that built a light weight hydrostream vector copy, using s-glass and vinylester, and keeping the weight down with a light layup schedule. The customer pics the color, you build it, and they take it home to complete it (carpet, seats.....) i think you could realistically sell these for $4,000 if they are done right and have a really pretty gel coat. I would much rather pay $4k for a new bare hull, than buy a waterlogged project that i put 100 hours in removing the transom and core, and repairing, plus $1,000 in materials.

3)though this may sound like i am contradicting myself on the first rule about keeping cost down; you have got to "look professional." this doesn't mean you go buy a $60,000 pick up to impress the guys at the boat show, but simply look presentable. Pay to be seen at boat shows, have professional ads done, professional brochures, professional answering machine service, always wear a nice polo type shirt with your company name on it, have vinyl graphics done on the side of your vehicle, professional web site, and so on. This stuff makes all of the difference in attracting the right crowd, the people that will spend money. One of the biggest turn-offs to me is when i go to a company web site, and see spelling errors. It just looks like an amateur threw it together and nobody proofread anything. A friend of mine went to law school recently, and when i checked out the schools website, i found two spelling errors on the home page. It really looks bad.

4)consider also building a very simple but practical little skiff or fishing type boat. These will sell when fun boats will not. Include features that they should all have, but don't, such as;

1)ski steps
2)stainless rubrail (simply cuz they are tough)
3)a floor angle that drains really well so your feet are not wet all day
4)nice built in rod holders
5)nice built in drink holders
6)marine grade carpet that snaps in for easy cleaning
7)a simple manual 2 1/2 inch jackplate so that motor height is easily adjustable, and silly people don't leave motor holes unsealed into the hull.
7)bilge pump installed

these are my thoughts, i am no expert, but have considered doing the same thing you are contemplating.

Ronny jetmore

[david harrell]

hey guys,
haven't been here in awile. wanted to hear your latest thoughts. i love all this input. thanks again. well my buss planner seems to have fallen off the face of the earth. hope i don't have to start over with a new one. i swear this would be so much easer if they would just let me rob a bank. sometimes i think that the office dweller's real job is to take something simple and make it as complicated as possible. i just want to build awsome boats. i want to build boats that are to tomarrow what the classic chris craft is to today. btw pip. you spoke of selling a hull for $4ooo. that won't even cover materials. however they will be complete from trailer to cover minus motor. as far as offering a kit goes. sorry i'm far to picky and anel to put my name in someone elses hands.

[PIP]

i can build one at the weight and size you originally defined at $2,200. again, i stated, bare hull, me doing the work (no workers comp, no shop rent, in my facility). talk to people that are small builders, and they will tell you a small shop that is a one man operation is highly doable with the perameters i defined.

the problem with being anal (i am not calling you this, but only using your words) is that idealism rarely is profitable. sacrifices and short cuts are made because PEOPLE CANNOT PAY FOR A BOAT BUILT BY SOMEONE THAT IS ANAL OVER THE DETAILS. This is why Walmart sells far more mens ties, than Brooks Brothers. I don't know of enough snooty type people, or Brooks Brothers types looking for the Ferrari of little boats. They don't buy little boats. The smallest luxury craft I know of is about 26 feet, built by Albemarle. Again, not many buyers, their.

Loot at the boat market, in this economy. Why spend $10,000 or more for a 16 foot new boat when you can buy a very nice used boat, much larger for less than $10,000. Take a listen to economist Milton Friedman or Mike Milken. They bring the common sense of Wallstreet to main street and show you what works and why.

Thanks man.

[stupidbaker57]

48063Please let me jump in. I'm retired and I build a small 8 foot runabout for my grandson. After I finished it, I thought that maybe I could sell these little boats in an unfinshed way with just the inside painted and let the customer choose the colors and finish the boat to their style. Well,,,,,,,,after 6 months, I still have the runabout and I'm only asking 275. The good side is that I am building 8 foot dingies the same way with just the insides painted. I just finished my 7th one today. They sell for 225 plus 30 more if they want oar locks (I make those also). They sell fast because of PRICE!!!!!!!!

[capnzee]

Your skiff is a measure of quality and beauty! Nice job. I'll bet you could build a small racing run-a-bout to APBA standards for not a lot more than you are asking for your skiffs. I can see your work is a labor of love and it shows. Rod:)

[david harrell]

ok. first off who says wall street has any sence let alone common. their job is to run up price and squeese us for all they can get. btw. much of the cost of these boats comes from the cost of wall street based typ co. bitch at them about the cost. can you remeber when the world clamerd for american made goods because they where the good stuff? if we don't put the quality back in our goods then we are no better than china. all we have to do is care about what we are doing. btw. i will be the first to call me anal so don't sweat calling me that. to me that's a compliment. i also from a construction background of 25+ years [been building boats longer] so i know all to well about cost effectiveness.
here's the u don't get it part. i can build build a basic shell for about $1500 mat cost sealed and out the door by my self in a week and for us crazy speed freaks that's great but how many people go into say a checkmate dearlership and want just a shell? i'm talking about a ski boat to take the fam and freinds for a day of fun in the sun. the twists are the beauty factor and the mostly natural material. i will make the classic chris craft look like plane jane. no offence to the chris craft guys. i love them too. i want to do something better. don't call me crazy. call me american!!!
ok i'll shut up now. your turn.

[PIP]

if the market will support it, make it and sell it. at the end of the day, that is what we all do. this is what wallstreet does, this is what everyone does, unless receiving tax money for just showing up to work.

the whole thing about buying american, though, it sounds nice, and is charming, and is great in idea, but people generally do not mean it. case it point, if the chinese product is "adequate" but substantially cheaper, everybody buys it. no american can buy all of the goods they want and have them be american. they would go broke. china does it cheaply, and the federal govt in the us strangles the factory. we are forced to pay a minimum wage for a worker not worth half of this amount. we fear adding employees because the govt constantly wants a bigger piece of OUR pie. they want to increase taxes on business, making it very difficult for business owners to take growth risks. people talk about buying american, but take a look in your sock drawar and see how many american socks you have, or better yet, your coat rack. you can get more for your money buying oversees, and the u.s. can't compete easily because our own government regulates the domestic companies so closely, they have to manufacture oversees to be profitable.

[Original Looper 1]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The richest man in the world is now supposedly Carlos Slim of Mexico, who is worth more than $60 billion according to reports. I say hell yes, when Mexico dumps all of it's impoverished and peasant class on the American private sector taxpayer working class for socializing aka welfare, food stamps, subsidized housing, schooling, etc. Sounds like a hell of a deal for the global elite. Thank you very much, political scumbags and who**s in Washington, DC. Most everyone is on to the fact that BOTH parties are nothing more than crime syndicates running political protection and economic rackets for the wealthy, corporations and special interests. What a deal coming from a bunch of phoney, political opportunists that are mainly made up of slick lawyers.

By the way, Carlos Slim thinks private sector seniors should not retire, they should work till they drop. It's good for them. I'm told he doesn't say the same for government workers who can retire much earlier and receive bigger pension benefits, including health care packages. You know, the ones that give your money away.

Remember, the best kept secret is that over 99% of the people that don't have health insurance in America work in the private sector. You know, the ones that the government depends on to pay their salaries and benefits -- the real "slaves" in America.


Regards,

Paul


ps: You don't see cheap, Chinese corporate health care being offered in this country. You don't see cheap, Chinese education being offered in this country. You don't see cheap, Chinese corporate legal firms offered in this country. Why? Because those three professions are protected from global competition by the carpet bagger, bought and paid for, both parties of Congress in the United States of (make believe) America. Free market ... yeah, right.

Open borders, free trade and endless wars have destroyed the middle class of this country that is now run of, by and for the global elite. As long as people insist in playing the Democrat vs Republican games, the elite will continue to win.

[racingfan1]

Could not agree more Paul. I will probably draw the ire of plenty of people for this comment but here goes anyway. While there are others in running , Bill Clinton , in my mind , will go down as the worst President in the history of this country. Nobody did more to screw the middle and working class than he.

Not just economically but morally as well.

[smittythewelder]

David, I'll spare you my political views. My notion about your boat-building biz is to identify a niche clientele and build what they'll buy rather than trying to compete with a whole industry for a whole range of buyer types, and just putting out a boat hoping someone will show up. I would think you'd want a clientele that doesn't have to think about the purchase price, just whether they want your boat as opposed to another, . . . which probably means yours should have some feature that stands out.

What PIP said about being very hard-nosed about overhead and up-front expenses before you've even got a product is right on. How many models do you figure to produce in the first couple of years? Surely for just a few boats the old methods of layout and lofting would save you thousands on computer programs (on which you likely will spend many happy hours playing with designs when you should be working in the shop or testing a prototype on the water or dealing with paperwork.

Get the prototype tested, tuned, de-bugged, polished out, then see what you can do to get some free "ink" (magazine tests, etc.). Get some buzz going within that target clientele.

This can be easy to do depending on the clientele. For instance, a landscaping contractor I do work for did a job for a local businessman from India, and now gets lots of Indian professionals in town asking for him. This can cut both ways, of course; Chinese-American housewives are notorious for saying, "You do this job for me real cheap, with lots of extras, and I'll refer all my friends to you!", but then each of her referrals will want the same deal. Home-grown American housewives are known for coming in after their husbands have made the arrangement for a job, and wanting half of it done over, . . . so, applying this to boat sales, it might be worth checking to see that BOTH spouses like your pretty boat. If the wife feels she was consulted and was part of the decision process, even though she knows nothing about boats (or welding), she is very likely to talk enthusiastically about it with her pals.

[david harrell]

when i said '' i'll shut up now. your turn'' i meant to talk. not to shut up. sorry if anyone got the wrong idea.
i say that we prosper despite the gov. don't forget that we are the boss.
since money and the monetary system an imaginary construct what do you say we imagine something better?
one of the worst things humanity ever did was invent money.

[Ron Hill]

when i said '' i'll shut up now. your turn'' I meant to talk. not to shut up. sorry if anyone got the wrong idea.
i say that we prosper despite the gov. don't forget that we are the boss.
since money and the monetary system an imaginary construct what do you say we imagine something better?
one of the worst things humanity ever did was invent money.

I've read ever post here with interest, but I've stayed out just in general.

I had a good friend named Bobby Kitchens from Jackson, Mississippi. Bobby was in the trucking business, he loved boats and loved to golf.

Bobby used to come out here in the winter with a HUGE ROLL of CASH and we'd go around and buy boats from people like Bahner, Eliminator and Baker. Bobby would use his trucks to get the boats back to Mississippi.

Bobby made some pretty good money in the truck business and I don't think he ever really made money in the boat business, but he liked boats.

About 8 years ago, I heard they needed storage space in Las Vegas, and they were using semi truck trailers for storage units. I decided this looked like easy money.

So, I called Bobby and asked if he had any semi trailers for sale......The first words out of Bobby's mouth were, "Ronnie what the f*** do you know about trucking? And how much money do you want to lose?" I said, "Nothing." He said, "Stay out of the business." He said, "He could get me free semi trailers but getting them to Las Vegas would bankrupt me with new tires, brakes, licenses and permits. He also reminded me, that trucks always break down within a block of a w**** house." He said, "Ronnie, you KNOW props and you are pretty good at it."

Bobby and I talked for half an hour, Bill Boyes and I visited him when we were in Mississippi, I didn't buy any semi truck trailers.

As far as the boat business goes, most people I know in the business liked boats, so they went in the boat business. Most people I know in the boat business have not made a ton of money, but many enjoy their work.

I have made money in the propeller business, I've worked at it, but I have always liked propellers.

Edison said, 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration........Obama might not agree, but hard work, and long hours, sometimes pay off!

The longest journey start with the first step...Good luck, keep us posted here!

ADD:


My son reminds me I lost money in my Baker Boat project, my Hydrostream Project, my Fiber Glass C Runabout Project, my Hallett Boat Project, my Lavey Boat Project and my Snapper Boats Project......My Sleek Craft, Bahner and Eliminator Projects made me money. Lucky for me through all these projects, my teaching salary came in the first of every month!

[david harrell]

do any of you guys know if a chamberd boat still needs foam flotation?