over prop exhaust v thru prop exhaust on 60hp evinrude

[phillnjack]

I shall ask this question on this forum as i know there many people here who know more
about props than i would ever hope to know.
to some it might be a silly question, but i realy dont know much about race props or cleavers.


I have a chance of getting a prop with the solid type hub. (never had one of these before)

Is ther anything stopping me using this type of prop rather than a thru prop exhaust ?

Will a stainless cleaver type prop omc No.387058 be ok to use with a 60hp evinrude 1995 ?
The size of prop is 12.5 x 23 inch cleaver, made of stainless steel.

what is the down side of using a prop like this if not raising the engine very high ?

Do i need to make the exhaust exit before the prop ??????

i dont realy want to cut into the exhaust if at all possible.
or is this a must for this type of prop.


at the moment i run a stainless 13x 19 and the motor revs to the limit instantly,so i know i
can go up a couple of inches, and this prop could be what i need (i hope ) to go quick.

i am going to be getting bigger carbs to make it a 70hp as well.



sorry to sound ignorant on a race forum ,but ive never delved into race type props before.



phill.

[Ron Hill]

Can you post a picture of your boat and engine? Can you post a picture of the prop you are thinking of buying.

You have asked several good questions, but they tend to sound like you are trying to shot at a flock of doves....You need to narrow your questions to one at a time.

[Fastjeff57]

I know of two cases where a thru hub exhaust motor is run with a solid hub prop (where the exhaust flowed around the hub instead of through it). The props exhibit what I call a "controlled cavitation" (meaning the boat still moves forward. In break away cavitation, the boat stops moving.) After plane off the prop 'catches' in the usual manner, as do motors raised high on the transom, and the prop works normally.

An advantage of this set up is that you can run a much higher pitched prop than you'd like and get right up on plane, with this same prop giving you the correct rpms at full speed--have your cake and eat it too!

Jeff

[phillnjack]

Thanks Jeff that is the type of answer i was looking for.


if only raising an engine plate just 2 inches above the hull bottom,would a thru-prop or solid type be best.

is the cleaver purely a go fast prop ? and not any good for mid range and holeshot ?

my boat is very shallow v at the back, 10 degree maximum with a semi pad of a foot wide in the middle.
front of boat is deep v going into cathedral then shallow v at the transom.

I know its not a race boat hull, and i know its not just a deep v.
But no reason i cannot get it to go pretty quick, im already above 40mph and engine is not taking any notice of the 19 inch prop so i would like to try something bigger and see just what it can do at full revs.

My boat and engine at the moment. 60hp 13x19 omc sst prop..
boat is 13ft 3 inch long x 5ft 10 at widest point .weight of boat on its own is 250 kilo.
The engine is 20 inch shaft, 1995 .

51571
51573
this one is not mine but shows the transom without engine fitted
51572


phill........:cool:

[Smokin' Joe]

12 1/2x23 cleaver is for a raceboat, and if it's a v-bottom instead of a tunnel then you'd have to trim it to 12" dia.
Your boat is not even a fast v-bottom, 23" pitch is way too high. To run a surface-piercing prop
(like a cleaver or chopper, or any good modern stainless prop) the motor must be jacked up. Your motor's way too low. Whatever
(cupped) prop you run (probably 19" pitch) you need to raise the transom, get the
cavitation plate up above the bottom of the boat. You need to build the transom up to at least 23"
using al plates and wood.

Over-hub is just fine, accelerates better. However, if the prop is solid steel, has no rubber cushion, then you should never
shift gears with the motor running.

[phillnjack]

well atleast i now know the cleaver is not for me..
with the 13x 19 omc sst double cupped the engine blasts to wot instantly, it can definitely take a lot more prop.

my next prop on the list is a Michigan stainless ..Part no. SS0523 been told its a 12x23.
Maybe this would be a better option for me.?



phill

[Smokin' Joe]

The motor should turn at least 6000 RPM. But above 6000 you need to
run oil at 25:1. You need the best oil at any RPM.

[Smokin' Joe]

True that I temporarily forgot how low that motor's geared, 23" pitch with gr=.41
would be like 19" at gr=.5. But unless you jack up the motor the cup doesn't
give you any boost.

[phillnjack]

I shall definitely jack it up a bit for sure.
Need to find a nice lightweight jack up coz i need to keep weight on rear end light due to
not having a splashwell in this type of boat.
Might have to get one fabricated myself from stainless

phill

[Per]

Hey Phill

Look for a 22" (or even a 24"?) Raker, that might wake that boat up.

Just make sure it's for an inline 3 and V4 gearcase! The big version is far more common than the small diameter one.

And don't forget "try before you buy" if possible;)

[Smokin' Joe]

Good suggestion, the VP class boats in Minn. ru the raker. But find
out what pitch they run and drop down, their boats are faster even if
the gearcases are relatively submerged. Check with 'Chairman', Bob Dillon,
and he can put you in contact with a VP driver.

[phillnjack]

when you say RAKER props do you mean the brand Raker or a prop with a high rake ?

i have seen the brand RAKER , and these are very expensive in the uk, and we do not get the
option of try before you buy.
Ive been to hundreds of different boat shops over the years and only come across one place that did that.
sadly he died a few years back and the shop has now been closed.

how high before a different water pick up is needed on a outboard.?


phill.

[Smokin' Joe]

I think it's OMC or BRP. Buy in the US and ship.

[phillnjack]

so what sort of diameter would be ok for my 60hp ?
i ask as you guys know more about props than i do.

and would the michigan 12 x 23 be no good for me ? and out of curiosity why not ?
i realy dont know much about either of these props or would not ask.


phill...

[Smokin' Joe]

Probably 12 1/2"-13". We ran 13" on a 140 clubfoot on an Evinrude 140/16' Allison ca. 1980.

[phillnjack]

what sort of speed did you get with the 140 on the allison ?
and what does an allison weigh roughly ?
I ask this as my friend has a johnson 140 cross flow on a 17ft picton deep v with a pad and needs to
get a decent prop to make it go quick.

phill

[Smokin' Joe]

what sort of speed did you get with the 140 on the allison ?
and what does an allison weigh roughly ?
I ask this as my friend has a johnson 140 cross flow on a 17ft picton deep v with a pad and needs to
get a decent prop to make it go quick.

phill

The 16' raceboat may have weighed 300 or less, would need to look at the old
brochure in my office. We ran a 13x25, transom height about 26 3/4, ran 73 mph
set up for closed course racing. Acceleration was better than the Merc 150 J block
but they had about 5 mph on me so I had to drive looking backward to fend them off.
Don Gautier once told me I made the 140 look good (once ran 2/2 for a 3rd), but his statement was better
than the truth.

[Ron Hill]

In Minnesota there is a three cylinder, 49 inch class, that requires the BIG GEARCASE, no power trim and the prop shaft 5" below the bottom. They run 53-54 MPH (Stock motors)...must be thru hub prop too.

Smomkin Joe you ever run against Joe Burgess???? He told me he was drivng his JP and was catching an EP at the finish and he went wide to miss the EP and the EP went wide to let Joe by....Joe was watching the checked flag and the EP....and got too close to the shore and hit a submerged sea wall (Kilo Watt Marine Stadium in Memphis , TN). Joe sure wrecked a good 14 X 28 thru hub cleaver, and took a nasty spill... Joe Burgess could drive an Allison for sure!

Rakes don't come out of the hole that well, do they???

[Per]

when you say RAKER props do you mean the brand Raker or a prop with a high rake ?

i have seen the brand RAKER , and these are very expensive in the uk, and we do not get the
option of try before you buy.
Ive been to hundreds of different boat shops over the years and only come across one place that did that.
sadly he died a few years back and the shop has now been closed.

how high before a different water pick up is needed on a outboard.?


phill.

I was thinking about the brand.

Yes, try before you buy might not be an option when buying from a shop, I was thinking of second hand one. (Can't afford the new ones either)

Jacking the engine:
I'd say once you run out of holes in the bracket you should get a water pressure gauge, cheap insurance and chances are you will get caught by the speed bug and want to jack it even higher:D

[Smokin' Joe]

I was thinking about the brand.

Yes, try before you buy might not be an option when buying from a shop, I was thinking of second hand one. (Can't afford the new ones either)

Jacking the engine:
I'd say once you run out of holes in the bracket you should get a water pressure gauge, cheap insurance and chances are you will get caught by the speed bug and want to jack it even higher:D

Joe was one of the most fair drivers I ran against, along with SueAnne Callahan. Both would keep their lanes
even if squeezed from the outside. Paul told me that Joe used to walk around in the pits around Gallatin as a small
boy, he knew him then. He drove for Chuck Rutherford, whose stable of orange Allisons is still in a barn
outside Knoxville. Wasn't me at the marine stadium. I used to step my E boat up to GP and outrun Joe in
Chuck's 15' Allison/Merc 850 at the nationals. See photo below, Joe's on the inside. We ran like that lap after lap til i got by then
Danny Critchfield won because both Joe and I had jumped the gun. We ran off and left Danny.

You can jack a 75 up nearly to split propshaft and still pump water on a v-bottom.

Photo of Joe's EP rig at Eufaula, 1977.

[Ron Hill]

Joe was one of the most fair drivers I ran against, along with SueAnne Callahan. Both would keep their lanes
even if squeezed from the outside. Paul told me that Joe used to walk around in the pits around Gallatin as a small
boy, he knew him then. He drove for Chuck Rutherford, whose stable of orange Allisons is still in a barn
outside Knoxville. Wasn't me at the marine stadium. I used to step my E boat up to GP and outrun Joe in
Chuck's 15' Allison/Merc 850 at the nationals. See photo below, Joe's on the inside. We ran like that lap after lap til i got by then
Danny Critchfield won because both Joe and I had jumped the gun. We ran off and left Danny.

You can jack a 75 up nearly to split propshaft and still pump water on a v-bottom.

Photo of Joe's EP rig at Eufaula, 1977.

One year at Havasu, I think Chuck was driving one boat in JP and Joe the other. They blew the side out of one boat, but kept running. I somehow I got hold of the wood shop teacher at the high school and he gave us some plywood, Havasu was a much smaller town in those days and everything was closed. A friend of mine from Wisconsin had come to watch the race and the only tool he had for working on work was a AX. My dad, the guy named Roy from Wisconsin, Chuck, me and Joe fixed that boat with glass, plywood and ax. The guy was so impress with my dad's skill skills sharpening the ax and cutting the wood, he gave my dad the ax. I think they (Chuck and Joe) ran 1-2 in JP....).

Here's a Raker on E-bay...Personally, I thunk the over hubs work better...http://www.ebay.com/itm/Evinrude-RAKER-R-H-S-S-Propeller-13-1-2-x-22-/200857729099?pt=Boat_Parts_Accessories_Gear&hash=item2ec40db84b&vxp=mtr

Here is picture of my over the hubs, I have them in 21 and 23, but making some new ones with 25 and 26 pitch.


Great picturesw, Smokin Joe...I'd love to have one of those little Allisons.

[phillnjack]

is it true about no shifting gears with the over hubs ?

do you guys all start in gear when using these type props ?

and will they run sub surface and semi-surface?
what i mean is will they run good with engine cav plate just 3 inches above hull.

the price im looking at is a steal at the moment, might even buy it as an ornament.

seen a few on ebay usa but the postage is a real killer, or they wont post to the uk grrrrrrrrrr

i can get the through hub michigan 12 x 23 but nobody says if they are good or bad & that one
would cost me $165 us incl postage as its near to me.

the rakers are way too expensive from the usa once postage is added on.

phill

[Smokin' Joe]

is it true about no shifting gears with the over hubs ?

do you guys all start in gear when using these type props ?

and will they run sub surface and semi-surface?
what i mean is will they run good with engine cav plate just 3 inches above hull.

the price im looking at is a steal at the moment, might even buy it as an ornament.

seen a few on ebay usa but the postage is a real killer, or they wont post to the uk grrrrrrrrrr

i can get the through hub michigan 12 x 23 but nobody says if they are good or bad & that one
would cost me $165 us incl postage as its near to me.

the rakers are way too expensive from the usa once postage is added on.

phill


Shut off the motor to shift. Cav. plate 3" high is still surface-piercing. Never heard of a good Michigan prop
in this era. Stiletto (designed by Jim Booe) is very good but pitch is typically on the low end of the needed
range. Forget Solas.

[Ron Hill]

Several things, OMC 3 bangers have a heavy flywheel. So, they don't slow down quickly. When running a solid hub prop on an OMC gearcase, it is best to start the motor in gear, but if you allow the motor to "IDLE DOWN" it can be shifted with a solid hub prop. There is actually, little give in a rubber hub prop. The major factor for gearcase damage with a solid hub prop is the fact that when you drop them in gear: A. They are larger pitches and diameters B. They bite the water harder.

[Smokin' Joe]

Several things, OMC 3 bangers have a heavy flywheel. So, they don't slow down quickly. When running a solid hub prop on an OMC gearcase, it is best to start the motor in gear, but if you allow the motor to "IDLE DOWN" it can be shifted with a solid hub prop. There is actually, little give in a rubber hub prop. The major factor for gearcase damage with a solid hub prop is the fact that when you drop them in gear: A. They are larger pitches and diameters B. They bite the water harder.

I wouldn't shift a 75 while running, Ron, old buddy! Ran them for years, still do. Can't idle slow enough to get me to do that. CLUNK!

[Ron Hill]

I "GIVE" as I know where 2-3 Nitro case motors are, all with broken gearcase........and from now on, anyone whos buys a solid hub cleaver from be will be warned of possible damage.

Off the subject, but did you ever shift and electric shift going wide open? Jimmy Jost used to "MEMO BILL" me a motor every year when I raced for Evinrude.....NOT OMC, NOT JOHNSON, but EVINRUDE. I'm going down the Colorado River, near Needles, wide open, and I punched in "R" just for fun...christ, the motor tilted up, almost came in the boat, boat spun around because there was no motor in the water.....I never tried it again...Next year, the new motor didn't have electric shift....come to think about it, i NEVER had a NITRO Case on that boat!..15 foot Sonny Levi, "X" race boat called "The Splendid Splinter", cable steering, and hours and hours of fun!

[phillnjack]

I am learning so much on this forum, especialy here about props.
Never even thought about how aggresive the over hubs are.
I never knew a surface piercing prop was anygood for holeshot neither.

phill

[Fastjeff57]

Though I run a gear shift motor, I always start her up in gear (after warming her up in neutral).

Good habit to get into.

Jeff

PS: If you have a "normal" remote control, of course, it won't allow that. A bit of wire jumping eliminates that.

[phillnjack]

yes i thought of that.
maybe a sepearate switch just for starting gear, or taking off the nutral switch.

All these things are a bit alien to me, but all making very good sense.

the more info im getting the more it sounds like im gonna be going a bit quicker.


earlier in this topic someone stated that i might need to trim 1/2 inch off the diameter of a prop ive seen .
can this simply be taking 1/2 inch from the tips and running with flat edged blades, or would this need to
be completely re-done at a prop shop, i do know how to balance props, but im no expert.
would the 1/2 extra make such a bad difference to me ?


phill

[Smokin' Joe]

I "GIVE" as I know where 2-3 Nitro case motors are, all with broken gearcase........and from now on, anyone whos buys a solid hub cleaver from be will be warned of possible damage.

Off the subject, but did you ever shift and electric shift going wide open? Jimmy Jost used to "MEMO BILL" me a motor every year when I raced for Evinrude.....NOT OMC, NOT JOHNSON, but EVINRUDE. I'm going down the Colorado River, near Needles, wide open, and I punched in "R" just for fun...christ, the motor tilted up, almost came in the boat, boat spun around because there was no motor in the water.....I never tried it again...Next year, the new motor didn't have electric shift....come to think about it, i NEVER had a NITRO Case on that boat!..15 foot Sonny Levi, "X" race boat called "The Splendid Splinter", cable steering, and hours and hours of fun!

No one in EP or SE shifted with motor running back then. Yu get used to it, no problemo. We did the
same with the 140 with a cleaver but I don't want to throw a match in the gas here!

No one in SST60 shifts with motor running today, no one in SST45 either!!!

[Ron Hill]

We used to shift our 235's in Mod VP, BUT as I recall, we idled them down, and we also made sure they were ALL THE WAY in gear.

I think the Tohatsu gearcase must be the best, my kids, and plenty of other used to drop those Tohatsu's in gear and everything would just go "CLUNK", but they kept running. I've seen the same in Sport C hundreds of times.

I wish we had started my COR motor in gear last summer...The throttle stuck wide open and we hit a quick 10 grand.....We put the throttle spring back on, then it made three laps before the rod let go and wiped out my entire powerhead!

[Smokin' Joe]

I as well, but didn't those choppers and cleavers all have rubber hubs?



We used to shift our 235's in Mod VP, BUT as I recall, we idled them down, and we also made sure they were ALL THE WAY in gear.

I think the Tohatsu gearcase must be the best, my kids, and plenty of other used to drop those Tohatsu's in gear and everything would just go "CLUNK", but they kept running. I've seen the same in Sport C hundreds of times.

I wish we had started my COR motor in gear last summer...The throttle stuck wide open and we hit a quick 10 grand.....We put the throttle spring back on, then it made three laps before the rod let go and wiped out my entire powerhead!

[Per]

Phill
If a prop is cheap, buy it! If it don't work well sell it! You might loose the shipping cost and then some but chances are you will learn a lot from testing a lot of props. high speed will always cost a lot be it in money or time, most often both:)

So buy both the cleaver and the michigan 12x23 do some serious testing and report your findings here...

I'm sure Ron have some very nice props for your rig, maybe you need to add a prop to your wishlist for x-mas

[phillnjack]

Its funny you say that PER.
I sent a letter to father christmas earlier today asking for a nice 3 blade prop and a jack plate.
I mentioned that i understand about the big reccession and cut back's so a manual jack plate will be fine.
Also a good secondhand prop is fine as long as no major bends or chunks missing ....
i bet he dont turn up with them..

on the michigan prop im not so sure if it is 13splines now....
this is the add for it.
.................................................. ......................
Stainless Steel Propeller for outboard engine,

Evinrude-Johnson-Gale....55-60-65-70-80-85-100 H.P.
( also Archimedes- Penta Model 600) '68 - '76
12 x 23...3 blade, thru hub exhaust...Michigan Part no. SS0523..

i cant find any info to make sure if its a 13 spline or 15 spline prop ???



phill

[Smokin' Joe]

Gale? Better be sure it doesn't use a shear pin!

[Per]

If it is for a Archimedes Penta 600 Or rather a Volvo Penta 600 with thru hub ex it will be a 13 spline.

[Per]

Joe posted while I was typing, maybe you should get a pic of it...
The facts in my previous post is still valid though:)

[phillnjack]

yeah i thought the same about the volvo penta
i had a 60hp volvo penta back a long time ago, very powerfull engine in its day, and that was 13 spline.
it was 1979 engine,one of thosethat came back from kuwait.
(kuwait had thousands of them when volvo were looking at stopping production, kuwait had so many just sitting in containers, lots of them came back to uk as new crated engines in the early 1990's )

and the gale bit did make me wonder a bit about the prop. i had a gale 25hp once...not bad in the early 70's..

the pic ive seen of the michigan shows it to be a 15 spline i think, not good pic at all,bad angle etc, but i will ask for a better pic of the prop.

[phillnjack]

After talking to a few people the michigan is not for me.
But since i wrote on this top ic o got another 2 props at pretty good prices.
1st is a omc alloy 12 x 23 thru hub,brand new never used prop for crazy low price.
and then i saw a prop i just had to have, its a 13.3/4 x 23 pitch omc stainless over hub silver streak.
this prop although over hub has a rubber bushing,so might be a bit gentler on the gear box.

Both props i got for good price and if they dont work ,then atleast they look nice above the work bench ha ha

53974
after looking at them i tried them on the engine for fit etc.
i think they both look fine

53975
53976


phill