1969 PRO Nationals

[racingfan1]

Here is some of the program from the 1969 PRO Nationals at DePue. Can anyone help with the history behind the couple of the pictures.

[Bill Van Steenwyk]

In addition to many names in the program from the real "hey-day" of "Alky" racing, now called PRO, I think the two pictures were taken elsewhere at other courses, as are lots of the pictures that have appeared over the years in DePue programs.

If I am not mistaken, both these shown were taken at Lakeland, Florida's Lake Hollingsworth, when the 1 2/3rd mile course was still in existence. V-51 may be Homer Kincaid, and I remember the other photo from other sources, possibly in another thread here on BRF but do not remember now who it was said to be of.

Brings back lots of memories, as '69 was the second year I was back racing after having to lay off for 8-10 years.

[racingfan1]

While filing stuff away , I came across the results from the 1969 PRO Nationals. I would like to thank John Schubert for providing the results.

[racingfan1]

Here is the race race recap that in the Propeller magazine. Thanks again to RC Hawie for providing me the copies.

[racingfan1]

Thanks Bill for your reply. It may not be but it almost looks like the same blow over just taken in sequence. If you look at the driver of the second boat his clothes, helmet and posture in the boat look almost the same.

It is comical to look at pictures from yesterday to today. Back then you saw alot of bare arms and legs and now guys are covered head to toe in kevlar.

[racingfan1]

Like I posted on the 1967 thread if you know what equipment these guys were running, make of motor and boat , could you let me know so I can add it the lists.

[Master Oil Racing Team]

Great job. I have intended to send you more stuff, just been doing other things. On the cover of the 1969 program is left to right Dick Pond driving for Marshall when Marshall ran Merc/Quincy's. In the middle is Jerry Simison in G-86, and on the inside is Johnny Woods. I believe, but not absolute, that that is Johnny Woods blowing over the hydro in the first pic, and like Bill Van, I'm sure that it is Homer Kincaid in the V-51 with a looper.

[racingfan1]

Thanks Wayne. I really appreciate what you have sent me already. I have a great respect for the all the great photos you have knowing that all of them were taken with film. Digital has made photography so much easier. I will gladly take what ever you want to send my way.


As I said earier , and I dont want to question you and Bill , but look at those two pictures and focus on the boat that is behind the boat that is blowing over. I would swear it is the same blow over just taken in sequence. The guy in second boat has the same clothes and helmet , plus look at his driving posture , it looks exactly the same.

In reading Charlottes Propeller article I would say 40,000 may be a bit bold but who knows. I can remember as a kid we lived in the " White City " area of DePue , which those of you that come in the east entrance to DePue , it is that part of town before you go down the hill and past that big black pile on the old factory site. We would walk down to the races because to try and find a parking place anywhere downtown was almost impossible. I remember one year that people had to park in that grassy area between the road and the railroad tracks that was opposite the old New Jersey zinc factory and walk to the lake from there. If I could bring back one thing it would be the fireworks display that was put on at the end of races. That ended the year the gentlemen who were setting off the fireworks on the barge dropped a flare into the box of fireworks and the whole thing went up.

BTW - you may need to clean out your PM inbox. I tried to send you one but it says it full and you cant receive any more. Once again I want to thank you for everything.

[Bill Van Steenwyk]

Dale:

Regards some of the score sheets and other material the have Charlotte Queen's imprint on them. Did you ever get hold of Clyde and was he able to help you?

Regards the pictures:

If you now have a number of score sheets/Programs or other information from earlier DePue races, perhaps in the earlier ones there are driver listings that will give the identity of the driver of V-51? I notice in the program posted, as in all the DePue programs I have seen over the years, drivers are listed with their numbers. As both Wayne and I stated, we think it is Homer Kincaid, but Wayne made the comment about a Looper on the boat in the picture, and unless the photo was taken a number of years prior to the date on the program, I never knew Homer to run a Looper. Gene East has also commented that though he had the highest respect for Homer as a driver, he always competed against Quincy as a member of the "enemy" camp, in other words, other make motors than Quincy made. I have contacted his Grandson some months ago and asked him to participate in threads about Homer, but he has not done so to this time, whether for lack of time or interest, I do not know.

The reason I think it (sequence of photos) at Lakeland, Fl., is I think I recognize both the Judges stand there behind the first photo, and also the Lakeland course was the only one I am familiar with that had the metal standards with the cones on top that marked the course. There may have been other courses that used that type marker, but Lakeland is the only one I was ever at that did. I certainly was not at every course in the nation, so others may have used the same type marker, but that is why I thought it was Lakeland.

I know YOU realize the following is true, but perhaps others do not. We are very fortunate from a history standpoint, from the mid 60's onward until Wayne and Baldy stopped competing, that he kept the notes he did and also the photos he took still exist. Without his diligence with keeping the negatives and filing them with a retrieval system of some type, we all would be out of luck and much of the history of that period would not exist.

I hope you are able to continue with your quest and all who can contribute to the DePue history will help you. DePue is a really special place for all who have competed there, whether they became Champions or not.

[Master Oil Racing Team]

Thanks for your indulgences Bill Van, but not all my notes survived. I think Dale is most likely correct and you are too. Those pictures were from Lakeland, Florida. I'm not sure what year, but I will bet that they were taken by a photographer that later became famous as a wedding photographer, and made a name conducting seminars on wedding photography and writing many articles in professional publications. His name is Don Donnelly.

It may not be him, but I have a number of photos he took from the same position when Tim Butts brought us some new varnished but unpainted boats down from Michigan in 1974. Don was in a boat standing off the start finish line to get the start, boats racing and the finish. There were the same standard hard pole bouys all around the course, but you can see in the background familar landscape like the judges stand, the clubhouse and other familiar pit scenes that appear in the DePue program.

These photos appeared in almost all big programs of those days for many years. There are several programs that had the complete blowever sequence with V-51, AND Johnny Woods blowover at the same race. I'm guessing it was around 1965. Tim Chance might know, and if he wasn't taking the photos, he might know some details, because I'm thinking he might have published them in Hydroplane Quarterly. Just thinking off the top of my head now, but like Bill Van said, we'll try to help you track down this information Dale. I was brought back to a capsule in time the last two times I've been to DePue. Your town has a huge impact in the special memories of a lot of alky racers.

[Bill Van Steenwyk]

I have an idea V-51 might be Bud Finkel (sp?) I will try to confirm this in the next day or so with two separate people who knew him, and Gene East should know if Bud was a Quincy customer, and if so, remember his boat number as all Quincy's numbers were V numbers also (Illionois). As mentioned, I don't think Homer Kincaid ever was a Merc/Quincy customer unless it was in the 50's or very early 60's.

If Homer had ever competed with Merc/Quincy's I think Harry ZAK would have mentioned it, as Harry did a lot of Homer's motor work, including the first set of ZAK pipes for Homer's "C" Konig which were all fabricated tubing pipes (no cast manifolds), and which was originally a 4 carb motor converted later on to a rotary valve by Harry with parts he machined and made in his shop.. The first race I attended after a long layoff (didn't race or spectate for almost 8 years) was on the Grand River north of Chillicothe, Mo. in '67. Very narrow little course and you sank up to your knees in mud in the pits.

I could not believe my eyes when Homer Kincaid ran his heats of C Hydro with the four cylinder Konig, as I had never seen an outboard powered Hydro run so fast. I remember John Dortch, who I knew from my previous racing in Arkansas, was also in attendance running A & B Flatheads, and they ran faster than the C & D Hydros did when I quit. I knew then I had to get back involved and that is the reason I had stayed away for those 8 or so years, as I knew I had to stay away or I would be hooked again and my traveling job did not allow settling in one place during that time.

[Master Oil Racing Team]

Although I never met Bud, I dated his daughter for a couple of years. The last name was Finkl. No e. You could be right about that Bill Van. I think Homer's number was V 91. Can't believe I have to look it up. Oh well...I think it's been around 4 decades since Homer quit racing. I think it's kind of nice we can remember him...if not his racing number.

[Bill Van Steenwyk]

Wayne:

In some of the info on the score sheets posted on this thread, and I also concur now that I have had my memory jogged, Homer Kincaids boat number was V-9, or at least that is the number I remember him using the several years after I started back again in '68 and until he retired from driving a couple of years later. I also appears as V-92 on another score sheet, but I have a tendency to think that is a typo, or he added another number because someone else was using V-9 also at a race. I have a hard time imagining that someone would try to abscond with Homers number though, unless they were a new racer and didn't know of him, as I think he used that number for quite a while.

[Master Oil Racing Team]

V9 is correct. I found it in a 1962 roster. Didn't find Bud's yet.

[Bill Van Steenwyk]

Wayne:

Just had a confirmation from Bill Kurps (PRO Hydroracer on this site) who knew Bud Finkl and was at his home a number of times. He states that Bud's number was indeed V-51.

So, that part of the mystery is solved. As to whether both photos are of the same flip sequence, that will remain a mystery for now, unless someone who was there can testify.

How about Wayne renewing his "friendship" with Ann Finkl, and see if we can get, as Paul Harvey used to say, "The rest of the story". I think I remember one of Bud's family here on BRF a couple of years ago, possibly Ann, clarifying something else about him or something else being discussed that occurred during the time frame in which he raced and that he was a part of. Think she was living in Florida?

[Master Oil Racing Team]

Anne lives in North Carolina. It was her that joined BRF, and we corresponded briefly...probably about that clarification you mentioned.

[Master Oil Racing Team]

After I made a trip in 1968 to pick up some brand new boats Nick Marchetti had built for us, I told my Dad "We know a lot of guys racing in APBA" So when the $30,000 prize for the Golden Shores Winternationals at Phoenix was announced in early 1969, we raced in our first APBA race. Two guys were knew from NOA also showed up. Bob Hering and Kay Harrison. I had been reading about Ron Hill ever since I started reading the racing publications, and just before I started racing. I was extremly proud to be in a picture with Ron and Kay Harrison receiving trophies, and a second picture with me and Bob Hering at the trophy photo session. I told my Dad "We need to go to the APBA Nationals. We know a lot of people that will be there." And sure enough there were.

I'm not sure of the route that my sister Brenda, Bud Turcotte and I took to get down to the village o DePue in 1968 when we picked up the boats, but I can clearly remember 1969 when we left the Interstate and very shortly dropped down on a winding two lane highway into the Fox River Valley. It was a stark contrast from the roads we had been traveling.

I can't remember talking to Ron Hill or Ted May in the pits, whom we had raced with at Needles California at the beginning of the year, but we did see the two guys who we pitted in between on an island. There was Bob Viera and Jay Root. We had a good visit with both those guys. I had a good C Hydro battle with Dick Davidson at the Golden Shores Winternationals, but I never really met him. He was there and finished 6th in A hydro.

One think I do remember clearly is that Baldy and Lee St. Clair hit it off immediately. He was one of those guys like Johnny Dortch that we took on an immediate friendship. I don't know exactly what it was, because I was doing my own thing, but my Dad, Lee and his wife (I can't remember her name) were like long lost friends. I thought Lee was about 70 when I first met him and wondered how he could still be racing (70 in 1969 is not like 70 today Bruce :D). He might have been in his sixties, but he still raced and went to all the big events. It was at the 1969 nationals though that we were blessed to first meet them.

The other guy we first met in 1969 was Pauli Bogosian and his family. I think we were pitted next to him, and Bill and Billy Seebold next to Pauli. We knew the Seebolds from previous racing and they came to our house in South Texas to finish the second half of the blown out races from the NOA World Championships at Forest Lake, Minnesota. Paul was there with his family, and just like the St Clair's my Dad took up an instant friendship with them. Paul's Dad was a little older than Baldy, but he was in the pits too, and after a weekend of racing, we became lifetime friends of Pauli Bogosian and his family.

That was where we also met Homer Kincaid for the first time, but it was the next year or two before my Dad and Homer became friends.

[Gene East]

I have an idea V-51 might be Bud Finkel (sp?) I will try to confirm this in the next day or so with two separate people who knew him, and Gene East should know if Bud was a Quincy customer, and if so, remember his boat number as all Quincy's numbers were V numbers also (Illionois). As mentioned, I don't think Homer Kincaid ever was a Merc/Quincy customer unless it was in the 50's or very early 60's.

If Homer had ever competed with Merc/Quincy's I think Harry ZAK would have mentioned it, as Harry did a lot of Homer's motor work, including the first set of ZAK pipes for Homer's "C" Konig which were all fabricated tubing pipes (no cast manifolds), and which was originally a 4 carb motor converted later on to a rotary valve by Harry with parts he machined and made in his shop.. The first race I attended after a long layoff (didn't race or spectate for almost 8 years) was on the Grand River north of Chillicothe, Mo. in '67. Very narrow little course and you sank up to your knees in mud in the pits.

I could not believe my eyes when Homer Kincaid ran his heats of C Hydro with the four cylinder Konig, as I had never seen an outboard powered Hydro run so fast. I remember John Dortch, who I knew from my previous racing in Arkansas, was also in attendance running A & B Flatheads, and they ran faster than the C & D Hydros did when I quit. I knew then I had to get back involved and that is the reason I had stayed away for those 8 or so years, as I knew I had to stay away or I would be hooked again and my traveling job did not allow settling in one place during that time.

I feel certain the driver about to get very wet in/out of V-51 is Bud Finkl and not Homer Kincaid. Bud was taller and leaner than Homer and I don't remember ever seeing Homer w/o his white coveralls. Homer owned a Quincy Looper A. So did Dieter Konig! I don't believe Bud ever was a Quincy customer.
BTW: look closely at the motor on V-51. Not a Quincy, but a Konig. Pipes are on the wrong side!

Re: Dieter's Quincy Looper A. This motor was purchased through a third party whom I know and still consider a friend. We would have been happy to sell an engine direct to Dieter and who cares if the third party made a buck or two. It's always been my opinion that our "A" was our best performer and that includes the "44"

I recall catching Dieter snooping around inside our trailer at Alex, closely eyeballing an "A" that was disassembled. I walked in on him and said,"it runs pretty good doesn't it"? Dieter seemed embarassed at being caught replied, "Ja, Ja" and walked out. It wasn't long after that he became an owner of a Quincy Looper "A". Quincy Welding bought a Konig or two during those "Good old days of boat racing".

[ferv888ipba]

After I made a trip in 1968 to pick up some brand new boats Nick Marchetti had built for us, I told my Dad "We know a lot of guys racing in APBA" So when the $30,000 prize for the Golden Shores Winternationals at Phoenix was announced in early 1969, we raced in our first APBA race. Two guys were knew from NOA also showed up. Bob Hering and Kay Harrison. I had been reading about Ron Hill ever since I started reading the racing publications, and just before I started racing. I was extremly proud to be in a picture with Ron and Kay Harrison receiving trophies, and a second picture with me and Bob Hering at the trophy photo session. I told my Dad "We need to go to the APBA Nationals. We know a lot of people that will be there." And sure enough there were.

I'm not sure of the route that my sister Brenda, Bud Turcotte and I took to get down to the village o DePue in 1968 when we picked up the boats, but I can clearly remember 1969 when we left the Interstate and very shortly dropped down on a winding two lane highway into the Fox River Valley. It was a stark contrast from the roads we had been traveling.

I can't remember talking to Ron Hill or Ted May in the pits, whom we had raced with at Needles California at the beginning of the year, but we did see the two guys who we pitted in between on an island. There was Bob Viera and Jay Root. We had a good visit with both those guys. I had a good C Hydro battle with Dick Davidson at the Golden Shores Winternationals, but I never really met him. He was there and finished 6th in A hydro.

One think I do remember clearly is that Baldy and Lee St. Clair hit it off immediately. He was one of those guys like Johnny Dortch that we took on an immediate friendship. I don't know exactly what it was, because I was doing my own thing, but my Dad, Lee and his wife (I can't remember her name) were like long lost friends. I thought Lee was about 70 when I first met him and wondered how he could still be racing (70 in 1969 is not like 70 today Bruce :D). He might have been in his sixties, but he still raced and went to all the big events. It was at the 1969 nationals though that we were blessed to first meet them.

The other guy we first met in 1969 was Pauli Bogosian and his family. I think we were pitted next to him, and Bill and Billy Seebold next to Pauli. We knew the Seebolds from previous racing and they came to our house in South Texas to finish the second half of the blown out races from the NOA World Championships at Forest Lake, Minnesota. Paul was there with his family, and just like the St Clair's my Dad took up an instant friendship with them. Paul's Dad was a little older than Baldy, but he was in the pits too, and after a weekend of racing, we became lifetime friends of Pauli Bogosian and his family.

That was where we also met Homer Kincaid for the first time, but it was the next year or two before my Dad and Homer became friends.

Wayne,
I remember Bobby from our days in California. I lived in San Bernardino and became friends with Dick and Bob Davidson and bought my first C Hydro from Bob. Dick and Bobby Viera were really close in B runabout hi point chase and Bobby got the Stock guys up north to put on the class in a race at the Oakland Estuary, right by the Oakland airport. This was salt water, which brings its own set of problems with the motors, and on top of that we had the tide coming in and out all weekend. Well as you can imagine mud everywhere and I have a pair of rotted tennis shoes by now sitting in the mud. Trying to lift a B runabout in the air while sinking 18" into the mud was really crazy. A pair of us got it up off the water and others had to grab it as we sunk. Dick ended up winning overall and we had a great all night trip back to Berdoo.

Your mentioning Bobby also brought back the memory of Bobby going over sideways, head first into the bottom corner at Depue. When Bobby came in from the course, his Dad Sid, and his Uncle were all over him until Bobby pulled his helmet off and the whole side of his head was covered in mud. Bobby explained that he went face first and said he waited to float up to the surface, but soon realized that he was not floating up and in fact was stuck in the mud. He said that he pushed with his hands to release himself from the bottom, only to find that he buried his arms to his elbows in the mud. He said he started thrashing from side to side and finally released himself and came to the surface, completely out of breath. Very lucky indeed.


Bud Finkl was a fun story to think about as well. Bud used to have his boats painted pink and black and he was a real hard charger. He and Homer would have words at almost every turn in fun, for the most part. Although one year at Depue Bud challenged Homer to a heads up race between the two of them. Too young(old) to remember whether they ever did run against one another heads up or not, but thought wow, Here is the king of racing, Homer Kincaid, being challenged. As a youngster that was a great lesson.


Thanks to you and Dale for jogging the old brain cells, so much fun reading this stuff.

ray