FD-53 Acquired

[BJuby]

Thank you Joe Johnson for parting with this treasure!

Engine is FD-53. Originally purchased by Dick O'Dea. I received the engine over the course of a couple weeks and just received the complete powerhead yesterday. I just had time to mock it up yesterday. It came with Generation 2 elbows and megaphones and Fairbanks ignition. Tower is a Mark 40H and the gearfoot is a real gem D-Quickie. The carbs aren't Model N's, but Joe told me they came with the motor when he acquired it. They appear to be NOS. Tillotson WB-1As. I plan on finding 2 Carters and converting them to floatless. I also plan on using a Merc 650 CD ignition on the engine. Furthermore, with regard to internals I plan on replacing main top and lower bearings (previously needles were done and engine was never started after), new rings, reeds converted to Boyensen (i'll need guidance on that), and converting the regular rods inside to alky H beam rods that I recently acquired.

I am having a friend recreate the Carter carb throttle bracket for me and we may both be going to CD ignition (he has a 44ci Looper) so we may both need a plate to attach the CD ignition and coil to, which he can also fabricate. Not sure yet if I am going to use a stick tower, a 55H tower, or the 40H tower that it came with. I really like the all aluminum look of the engine, but have a feeling a restored cream colored 55H tower would also look great, decisions... The plan is to run this for demonstration purposes in flybys and such on my F Sidson. This baby needs to be HEARD! I think that's about it for now. As this becomes the next project near the end of the summer I will be asking a lot of questions. I have already been in contact with some people who raced these and I am truly honored. This acquisition is a dream come true and I know this is going to be an amazing and fun project.


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[Gene East]

Nice find you have there.
I spoke with Paul Christner earlier today. He confirmed the engine was indeed sold to Dick O'Dea.
Dick is certainly a legend in our sport
You can be proud to own an engine that once belonged to him.
A word of advice, Do not run that engine on the 40-H tower housing.
BTW: There is more to the cream colored down housings than just paint.
Good luck trying to find one.

[BJuby]

Hi Gene,

Thanks for giving me the info. This looper is a full circle for us. When my father was young, in the mid 70s he went to Dick to have him work on a quickie foot for him. That foot was from a KG7-Q that was the first merc in our collection and started this madness. I was thinking that I would not use the 40H tower because I had heard they were not the strongest, but was waiting for someone to chime in. Is a 55H tower ok? Or should I only use a stick tower for it?

Also, do you happen to know if Paul got my email? He told me to contact him via email when I had the engine in hand.

Thanks

[Gene East]

I would recommend a welded steel housing, but I don't know who to recommend. Larry McAffee builds as good a tower as any I've seen, but I'm not sure he is selling any.

There are probably several reputable makers who view this forum. Perhaps some one will contact you

I believe Paul received your e-mail since he contacted me regarding your situation.

[BJuby]

Thanks Gene. I have a stick tower that I use on my 55H mod engine, but I guess I could use another. When it's ready to go I will use that tower. I look forward to Paul getting in touch with me.

Edit: I noticed some numbers etched into the block right above the quincy serial number and those same numbers on the exhaust elbows on the right side.

#1 cylinder: .490
#2 cylinder: .487
#3 cylinder: .520
#4 cylinder: .485

What do these numbers reference?

[Gene East]

I'm guessing those are bore sizes. Standard bore is 2.440".

[Gene East]

Please post pictures of your H-beam rods and the rods currently installed in the engine. What many of us call H-beam rods are obsolete and NOT suitable for the HP this engine will produce.

I need to see the rod caps and the cap bolts as well.

[BJuby]

Gene,

I won't have access to the parts and engine until this next weekend. I will get you photos of the rods, to the best of my ability of those that are in the engine. The ones in the engine seem like standard 600-4 rods (solid end caps, not the 3 hole kind). The engine is completely assembled. I'll do my best to get a good picture, but I am not at the point yet where I am ready to dissemble the engine. I have easy access to the H beam rods though, so we can start there. I'm very interested to find out more about these H beam rods. I might just be misusing terminology, these certainly appear a lot stronger (wider, thicker, and "flat" instead of "rounded" like standard 600-4 beams). Of course I've been wrong before, haha. Thanks a lot.

ADDITION: just remembered there is a thread here on BRF about rods which is where I got my understanding of the rods from. Here is the link, the heavy duty rods I have look like the rod on the left in the picture Sam provided:

http://www.boatracingfacts.com/forums/showthread.php?8199-Not-all-rods-are-created-equally

[Gene East]

The rods you should use are NOT machined straight across the cap but have a rounded recessed area. The head of the cap bolt is forged to fit that recessed area. All the rods that are machined straight across are designed for engines in the 50HP and under range and WILL BREAK at the edge of the machined area when subjected to the increased HP of a Looper. That is why I want to see a picture of the rods in the engine.

[BJuby]

Ok I'll get those photos for you.

[Steve Litzell]

Ran many of these rods both with the extra I beam and the normal 600-4 solid caps. Motor will wind quicker than with the heavy ones. A round hole and good bolts are a must. a guy asked me one time many years ago if a Merc/ Quincy could turn 11,000 rpm's, I said yes but just once! A rod that has bolts receive a lot of stress at the parting line and the bolts will shear. That is why late type split rods are of the cracked cap design with good bolts that thread into the rod body. A bolt and nut type stretches and also has clearance for the bolt to pass through the beam. This allowes the cap to move or pinch the rollers. The cracked cap design hold the cap fro moving while the bolt holds it all together. If there were room enough a simple dowel at the bolt holes will greatly improve this shearing motion but then there is the rod deflection problem to solve as well. The shorter the rod length i think the worse the problem. I ran just normal 600-4 rods as long as I ran Flatheads until i bought my first Konig in 72 or so. The heavy rods look nice but really look at them, all they do is have the I beam the same hight as the big and little end, Big whoop, i'll take the weight savings any day and take some of the strain off of the bolts. Steve

[Gene East]

All good points Steve. I used to think that a pressed crank/rods assembly was dumb. That just showed how dumb I was.

We tried to run a rotating mass 9,000-10,000 rpm when it was only designed for 6,000. However, the records show this under spec'ed
assembly did an admirable job for longer than anyone had the right to expect.

The day I first met John Dortch (May 30, 1958) I noticed a picture in his trailer of an exploded 20-H.
Below the picture was the caption, "Resolved never to exceed 8,500 RPM again"!

If Chris had built the Z engines a few years earlier, Konig may not have become quite so dominate over Quincy during the 70s

[BJuby]

Dad sent me an email today. Says that on the top of the engine, other than "Dick O'Dea", "D Pro", engraved in the powerhead there are two other names. "Howard Shaw" on the powerhead and on the top of the top cylinder head "Heads by Myers". I have heard of Howard Shaw, but I am not sure who Myers is. Interested in the history.

[Gene East]

I'm not sure who Myers is. Perhaps someone can fill us in.

[J-Dub]

John Myers is my Dad. He ran Quincy's out here in the Northwest for years. He acually got Howard Shaw into racing in the early 60's. Somewhere there is a picture of my Dad anh Howard side by side in BRR with their Loopers. Eventually that lead Howard to but an FD and I believe a 44 Looper as well when Dad rode for Howard in FRR for several years. Dad built many of the engines Howard raced through the years. I remember Joe Johnson calling me about those markins on that engine, my Dad got a good chuckle outta that.
Unfortunately, we lost my Dad a few weeks ago from a stroke... He left us with with likely one of the largest Quincy collections known. I believe the count is 5 A Loopers (including engine # FA-1), 3 B Loppers, a D Looper, besides a couple Quincy Deflectors as well.

J-Dub

[BJuby]

Thanks for the information. I had heard about your father and am sorry for your loss. I am glad he relayed this information to you as I feel it important to know the history of the sport and the pedigree of these treasures.

[Gene East]

J-Dub,

I thought we were talking about your Dad, but I didn't want to give incorrect information.

The story you told recently about his response to the smell of a used megaphone while he was so very ill was very touching. It brought tears to my eyes.

Please give us the name of the thread where we can all read it again.

Lake Paradise will be great when WE get there and get to be reunited with the heroes of our sport

[BJuby]

Is Dick O'Dea doing well? I had been in regular contact with him last spring and haven't heard from him in response to a recent email (I think I sent him another email a couple months back too). Thanks

[John Schubert T*A*R*T]

Is Dick O'Dea doing well? I had been in regular contact with him last spring and haven't heard from him in response to a recent email (I think I sent him another email a couple months back too). Thanks

Brandon,

I sent him one as well a couple of weeks ago, but haven't heard back either. I'll try again.
John

[Gene East]

John,

I was wondering when you would chime in.

Did you ever drive the engine we're talking about?

Are you coming to DePue?

[John Schubert T*A*R*T]

John,

I was wondering when you would chime in.

Did you ever drive the engine we're talking about?

Are you coming to DePue?

No I didn't drive that engine. Actually Gene, the Quincy records only record as stuff was sold to Dick, whereas a lot of what was sold to him was actually for his customers. My very first "B" shows up as a Dick O'Dea motor, but he bought the parts for me & my dad ground out the CC & did the assembly.

Not sure about Depue, as we are putting our house up for sale & my wife is finally retiring. So it depends on what is happening at the moment

[John Schubert T*A*R*T]

Is Dick O'Dea doing well? I had been in regular contact with him last spring and haven't heard from him in response to a recent email (I think I sent him another email a couple months back too). Thanks

Brandon,

He responded to an e-mail that I sent to him this morning right after I posted my response to you earlier. Says he is fine & leaving for a week to attend 4 World of Outlaw sprint car races.

[BJuby]

Brandon,

He responded to an e-mail that I sent to him this morning right after I posted my response to you earlier. Says he is fine & leaving for a week to attend 4 World of Outlaw sprint car races.

Thanks John,

I'll send him another email in a week or so if I don't hear from him. Don't want to bug him.

On the topic of the engine. I have been trying to not make this project a priority (as I have so many other very close to completed projects in the hobby), but sheer curiosity and the desire to answer some basic questions about the engine have made that difficult. I am going to open up the crank case and inspect the inside. Going to see what the rods and crank look like and check out the main bearings. I will update with photos when I get it under the wrench this weekend.

[BJuby]

So I opened up the engine. Split the block, mid case, and crank case front. Here are the photos you requested Gene. First is a side angle when it was still on the crank. Second, I removed it to give you a picture of the end cap. Third is of one of the heavy duty rods I have. Fourth is of a crack I have of found in the bottom of the block. Fifth is of an area i found more cracks. right in the middle of the webbing. cant see it in the photo. Just wanted people's opinions of the trouble areas and the rods. Thanks for any guidance.

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[Gene East]

The crack in the base of the cylinder block is no big deal as long as you have access to a good heli-arc (Tig) or Mig welder. The stud hole appears to be stripped any way, so either helicoil or weld. Submerge the block in water and don't overheat the block. you don't want the sleeves to move. The crack in the crank case web is not usually a problem left as is. Just put a good sealer around the valve body when you reassemble the engine. I would NOT recommend trying to weld that web. Actually we discontinued drilling the hole for the dowel pin on the valve body in all the later 4 bangers. That is just a carry over from the stock engines. Generally most of those type mechanics don't take the extra care in setting up a crank assembly that the average race mechanic would.

Now for the bad news. While the rods you have are HD, they are not the latest. The straight mill cut under the cap of the rod bolt is a shear line. If you have a rod failure, it will likely be at the milled area under the rod cap. As I said earlier, the latest rods with which I've had experience has a rounded bolt cap that nestles in a recessed area in the rod. There is no straight cut shear/stress line.

I believe most racers realize Quincy Welding and Mercury often co-operated in the development of racing parts that eventually found their way into production Mercury motors. I really don't know if that's the case with these rods since I haven't disassembled a motor in years.

It seems likely to me that some of the MK-500 Mercury engines built in the mid to late 70's had the rods I'm talking about. Maybe someone reading this post knows.

[Steve Litzell]

Well Brandon, The cracks at the case is what I talked about on another thread with you. This is because of someone just throwing the parts together. I learned when I was at least 40 younger that these things needed care to assemble or the cages and center main will split the case. I have seen and like Gene said, many motors run and run well with these cracks, but over time they leak between the cylinders and the motor runs "Punky". There is a proper way to set the crank on any Flathead and if not done right it will split the case. About the rods; I have said it before but will again, I have broken more of these fancy trick heavy rods than any of the 600-4 rods that are in your motor. They just need to be round, straight, and reasonably close in weights. New rod bolts and nuts are a must and under race conditions should be changed often depending on number of races/ time on motor. I did this when I reringed the motor which was at least 3 times a year. No rod breakage! Only rod I ever lost was one of those new fangled heavy jobs that was supposed to be the hot setup. The motor does not care what rods or who or how they were made so use good judgement and above all listen to what Gene has said about these" Heavy Rods" and their bolts. The rods fail at the parting line and at the cap machining area as stated as because of Mercury's short center to center length the angle and stress points are higher at the parting line. These rods would be much better in a cracked cap design with cap screws and the RPM stress would be higher. The whole reason in my opinion why the Konig Took over the flathead was because the Konig's would turn over 10,000 RPM's and hold together better at the big end of the rod. The Flatheads at that RPM would kill the motor in short order. Keep in mind that the Quincy motors and Konig's had the same stroke, but the Konig had a much longer rod and this improved the rod angle. The later Z Series Quincy motors had a longer rod and it is not a modified Mercury but a motor designed for racing and was again a competitive motor to the Konig's at the time. I too wish OF had started earlier on the Z motor as it would have made it fun to race against the Konig's with the Z motor. Hope I did not bore anyone with this rambling, Steve

[R Austin]

Gene, Steve
O.F. told me the proper way to assemble the looper was to bolt the mid case down on the block with the studs, without a gasket, tight. Then install the crank assembly and torque the case assembly. Then remove from the block put the gasket in place and then assemble to the block. This allowed the case assembly to stretch uniformly reducing the possibility of cracking the web. That is why I went to the smaller mains on the Beast, to increase the web thickness.

[BJuby]

Thanks guys (Steve, nothing about this stuff is boring!). I put it back together for now, I did not torque it down because I wanted advisement on that when I replace bearings and go to fiber reeds. That assembly procedure Dick mentioned is exactly the way I put it back together, again, just didn't torque it down. When i obtained it it was already torqued down, fully assembled. Another thing I noticed when I had it apart was the fact that the crank had been "worked". It appears to be ground down in spots, presumably to get proper crank balance? I couldn't get the picture the come out right to show what I saw.

Gene and Steve. I am convinced to leave the rods alone as is. I will weigh them, just to make sure I don't have closer weighing good rods laying around. But I will use this style of rods. On the topic of the crank. You guys mentioned the cracks in the mid case webs and how a lack of proper procedure is the cause, but I would like more info. Is it over torquing? Wrong bolt tightening order on the mid case? Basically I am asking "what's the trick?" Is it as simple as the assembly order like Dick suggests or a combination (or none of the above, haha).

[Master Oil Racing Team]

Never worked on a Merc/Quincy so the assembly and alignment process is new to me, but I can see how that would be the way to go. This is no way an uninteresting thread. Keep it up.

[Steve Litzell]

The procedure that Dick said is the correct way to do this. First bolt the mid case to block evenly and tight without the gasket. Then set crank and rod assembly and be sure to adjust the end play as well. At this point I would install the front case and make this also tight. I next install all the pistons without the rings and install the cylinder block. Then turn the motor over several times to be sure no clunking or tight spots. I then lay the block so cylinders are down and remove the front case I then observe the rod pattern to be sure they are not favoring the top or bottom of the crank throws. I adjust the piston washers thickness if there is a problem. If all is ok, I then dis assemble and start over with Dick's and my suggestion on assembly. Only this time when you install the front case you use sealer. After case is assembled, re install the pistons and rings and cylinder gasket and you should be good to go. These things MUST turn over very free or there is a bind and it will tear up the motor if not fixed. Assembling one of these is not a 1 hour job. It is a kin to the early Konigs that used different thickness washers to center the rods so care must be taken. Dicks motor using smaller mains is better for this cracking problem and i can't wait to see/ hear it run, Steve

[R Austin]

The rods in those older motors have a tencency to kreep and bind when rolled by hand. This does not happen when running because they will self center but is un-nerving when setting up.
I have found that aftermarket large end roller are not good. When setting up my 6 I had purchased some aftermarket rollers from the S company and found that it appeared I was missing a roller. Could not put in another roller. Got checking the size of the aftermarket roller and found them to be 2-10 thousands under size. given the number of rollers, this amounts a considerable gap increase and that is where the crank journal under load wants to go.
As for using later model rods, they changed the wrist pin size in the mid to late 60's and the piston does not have enough stock.

Also attached a new previously unreleased Beast photo.


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[Gene East]

Dick,

I echo Steve's comment. I can't wait either.

Beautiful workmanship!!!

[smittythewelder]

The "good rods" are what Quincy Welding used to sell as "SS rods," right? That look like the ordinary no-holes, copper coated rods, except for the rounded heads on the bolts, and the rod caps spot-faced for those bolt heads, right? Nobody has yet referred to them as "SS rods," but that's what I recall from all those years ago.

[John Schubert T*A*R*T]

The "good rods" are what Quincy Welding used to sell as "SS rods," right? That look like the ordinary no-holes, copper coated rods, except for the rounded heads on the bolts, and the rod caps spot-faced for those bolt heads, right? Nobody has yet referred to them as "SS rods," but that's what I recall from all those years ago.

That's correct but they also were available from Mercury as a service part from later Merc models. I got mine from Dick O'Dea as he was a Merc racing dealer.

[BJuby]

Anyone have a picture of one of these rods? I would be very interested to see.

[Gene East]

That's correct but they also were available from Mercury as a service part from later Merc models. I got mine from Dick O'Dea as he was a Merc racing dealer.

Thanks John and Smitty,

I was hoping someone could state with confidence these rods were available through Mercury. I felt certain they were; however, I never heard of them being called "SS". Makes sense though!

[BJuby]

When the engine arrived it had the top two head bolts uninstalled. This was because the engine has an extra piece of aluminum block attached there, with longer head bolts. It's kind of kinda a "water rail" and has a brass 45 degree fitting facing upward as a tell tail. I was installing it and placing one of the bolts in and it literally just slid in. No threads :(. Blew some compressed air and I got a little bit of aluminum thread debris. What is the solution, retap, helicoil? I assume because this is a head bolt hole it needs to be in good shape to allow for torquing.

Looking for thoughts on this. Thanks

[Gene East]

I would install the longest practical heli-coil I could find.

[BJuby]

I received a bunch of carter carbs a couple weeks ago. Got a good look at the, today and found two that are matching bodies. A couple were converted to floatless already. I used the very informative posts in the How Fast Will a 6 Looper Go thread about floatless Carters (love this website). I checked the sizes of standpipes, fuel entry and overflow fittings making sure they are the same between the two carbs. I know I read somewhere that the size of carb overflow fittings (fuel out) were different in size than fuel-in fittings. I couldn't find the post. Here are some photos of some of the parts I am planning on using to replace the Tillotson WB1A carbs that came with the engine.

Also forgot to add. One of the floatless converted carbs, serial number indicating it was a 20H carter, was marked FD in one spot (same as Quincy font) and Bud Parker stamped in two places.

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[Gene East]

Did it say Bud Parker or Dub Parker? Both were well known in alky racing

[BJuby]

Bud Parker. I double checked again. So who was he? Read his name around the website.

[Gene East]

Bud Parker was an engine builder from, California??

J.W. (Dub) Parker was a driver from Gadsden, Alabama

[Steve Litzell]

I Don't remember Dub ever owning or driving a D flathead, could be wrong, he mainly drove A, B, and C. I have one of his B motors and other stuff. Steve

[Gene East]

Steve, You are correct, Dub never had a Quincy D. He had an A and a B. I may have read the post wrong. I thought we we're talking about carbs and a B carb would work on a D.

The standpipe in the pictured carb is slightly different from a Quincy standpipe

I'll make it up to you at DePue. Do you want a taco or a Bud?

[Steve Litzell]

Steve, You are correct, Dub never had a Quincy D. He had an A and a B. I may have read the post wrong. I thought we we're talking about carbs and a B carb would work on a D.

The standpipe in the pictured carb is slightly different from a Quincy standpipe

I'll make it up to you at DePue. Do you want a taco or a Bud?

Gene, TRhat would be great and yes I would love to have a taco with you as long as I can buy! Maybe we can catch up on some old stories, Steve

[BJuby]

Steve, You are correct, Dub never had a Quincy D. He had an A and a B. I may have read the post wrong. I thought we we're talking about carbs and a B carb would work on a D.

The standpipe in the pictured carb is slightly different from a Quincy standpipe

I'll make it up to you at DePue. Do you want a taco or a Bud?

The standpipe appears acceptable though, right?

[Gene East]

Yes!

[BJuby]

Why do some looper heads have the hole for the spark plug in the middle of the "dome" and others have it offset? Is there an advantage one way or the other? Which was created later? Thanks.

[Gene East]

This is nearly impossible to answer since squish locations are one of those areas where every body has an opinion. The pastor of our church says, "Opinions are like noses, everybody has one and they all smell.

I think you mentioned in an earlier post that your heads were NOT Quincy. That adds another variable.

Most boat racers have heard a similar comparison using a different part of the anatomy.

Actually the first squish area on a Quincy Looper wasn't even round. It was a trench grooved across the diameter of the cylinder

[BJuby]

Ha, that's interesting Gene.

Yes, the heads on my looper are marked "heads by Myers" on them and were either created from scratch or "worked" by JDub's father, Mr. Myers. I have seen many pictures of ones that are damaged. These are in perfect shape, I am thankful for that.

[Steve Litzell]

Why do some looper heads have the hole for the spark plug in the middle of the "dome" and others have it offset? Is there an advantage one way or the other? Which was created later? Thanks.

The theory behind the offset is/ was that if the squish band covered more of one side of the piston more than the other, The side that had more covering would run cooler. That is why if you noticed, flatheads have a chamber and squish offset away from the exhausts. On a four cylinder top cylinder was more toward the top of cylinder. and # 2 was toward the bottom of cylinder. same arrangement for the 3 and 4 cylinder. Did it work????? Yea but at a power loss somewhat. Boy I guess I will catch hell for that one now. hehehe, Steve

[Aeroliner]

Started cleaning parts on the Looper collection so that I can inventory and reassemble the ones that are disassembled. In all I have 14 Loopers. 1 A (FA-88) from Champion spark plug, 3 B's (one Dick O'Dea), 2 C's, 4 D's, 2 E's (44 cubic inch) and 2 F's (one Bruce Summers). Along with this assortment I have a D and E Quincy cross flow set of engines that have been restored. Also in the Quincy collection is a 20-H MOD engine with a Quincy tank. The intent is to restore all the Quincy engines to running condition. Most of the work will be will be a winter project or projects. Right now Doug Kay has four of the engines up his way for restoration.

Alan

[John Schubert T*A*R*T]

[QUOTE=Aeroliner;132574]Started cleaning parts on the Looper collection so that I can inventory and reassemble the ones that are disassembled. In all I have 14 Loopers. 1 A (FA-88) from Champion spark plug, 3 B's (one Dick O'Dea), 2 C's, 4 D's, 2 E's (44 cubic inch) and 2 F's (one Bruce Summers). Along with this assortment I have a D and E Quincy cross flow set of engines that have been restored. Also in the Quincy collection is a 20-H MOD engine with a Quincy tank. The intent is to restore all the Quincy engines to running condition. Most of the work will be will be a winter project or projects. Right now Doug Kay has four of the engines up his way for restoration.
Alan,

What is the serial number of the Dick O'Dea looper. Typically, any motor sold to Dick by Quincy, whether complete motor or parts as Dick usually did final assembly, were for customers of his. This could very well be one of mine. We bought our parts from Dick, my father did all the CC grinding, I did final assembly. Also where did it come from?
John

[Aeroliner]

Hi John,
I bought a collection this past winter and it was part of the sale. It was located up in Wisconsin. I will be going to the shop shortly and get the numbers of the two there.

Alan

[Aeroliner]

Hi John,
The engine is FB-231 as identified by Paul.

Alan

[John Schubert T*A*R*T]

Hi John,
The engine is FB-231 as identified by Paul.

Alan

Paul,

I assume that you monitor this thread, what was the date that Dick O'Dea purchased this motor?

Alan,

Did that collection come from a guy now in Tomahawk? His name escapes me at the moment. Is it Dick something?

[Powerabout]

The theory behind the offset is/ was that if the squish band covered more of one side of the piston more than the other, The side that had more covering would run cooler. That is why if you noticed, flatheads have a chamber and squish offset away from the exhausts. On a four cylinder top cylinder was more toward the top of cylinder. and # 2 was toward the bottom of cylinder. same arrangement for the 3 and 4 cylinder. Did it work????? Yea but at a power loss somewhat. Boy I guess I will catch hell for that one now. hehehe, Steve
I always wondered about this on production engines...
V6 merc and OMC loopers in the middle
the old 49ci and the sst45 offset as above, late model 45ci one piece head still offset - why?
2nd effort looper heads have replaceable chambers are offset - cant remember which way?

[BJuby]

Would anyone here be able to do themselves or recommend someone to turn a standard Mark 25 reed cage into a looper cage? I assume I could use a Mark 25 cage as the base. Who might be able to machine this and what might it cost. Or would it be easier to hunt for an actual looper cage.

Thanks for any info.

[Steve Litzell]

Brandon, First off there are not looper cages for say. They were Merc cages modified by Quincy for their motors. I will look but the MK 25 cage may not be able to be made to a A or B motor cage as the center main may be too close to size for boring and fitting the roller set up like the 20H motor. Quincy used 20H shafts with roller center mains, so the info I have is in my shop. If a Mk 25 cage can be made then yes I can do this work. Cost is time and set up just like back in the day. Four cylinder motors used std merc cages modified for flathead use. Also you sent a private mesage to me about rings. I can make what you need. I need to know bore size to be sure I have or can get material for this. Rings are 40.00 ea. Steve

[John Schubert T*A*R*T]

Brandon, First off there are not looper cages for say. They were Merc cages modified by Quincy for their motors. I will look but the MK 25 cage may not be able to be made to a A or B motor cage as the center main may be too close to size for boring and fitting the roller set up like the 20H motor. Quincy used 20H shafts with roller center mains, so the info I have is in my shop. If a Mk 25 cage can be made then yes I can do this work. Cost is time and set up just like back in the day. Four cylinder motors used std merc cages modified for flathead use. Also you sent a private mesage to me about rings. I can make what you need. I need to know bore size to be sure I have or can get material for this. Rings are 40.00 ea. Steve
Steve, not necessarily true. We used MK25 cranks & reed cages in our "B" Loopers. O'Dea made the Looper reed cages for us from the Mark 25's reed cages. WE liked the MK25 cranks because they were stronger in the center not having the under cut for the bearings. I guess they worked OK as I won the "B" nationals in 1968.

[BJuby]

The reason I mentioned the Mark 25 cage was because of a post I found on the website by Frank Volker which is as follows and seems to back up what John is saying:

"The crankshaft padding goes back to the deflector days and carried through to the flatheads. The intent was most likely to decrease crankcase volume. I believe it was done on both 20H and MK-25 Cshafts. The 20H shafts soon became a mechanical weak spot in the flatheads; not because of welding, but because of the small cross-section of the center bearing. Eventually, all FA's and FB's used MK 25 shafts. At about the same time, we went to the special-made heavy duty rod caps and lighter flywheels. I seem to recall that even the early FB's used the '25 Cshafts." (5/8/2008)

The application I am speaking of is for an "A" looper specifically. So my question is, can the Mark 25 (non-20H undercut center bearing style) crank "unmodified" be used in the A and B loopers? If modifications were required of the cranks what was necessary to make it work. I was intrigued by the Mark 25 crankshaft idea because they are,

a) more plentiful (less expensive) than their 20H counterparts
b) are in my personal opinion stronger

This is all really interested either way.

P.S. Steve I will take you up on both offers in the not too distant future: reed cage modification (if we determine that I can do so) and the rings.

[Steve Litzell]

If you are/ want to use a Mk 25 shaft, then yes a Mk 25 cage can be made for the Quincy case. It is best to have the case as a lot of motors were cut on and s standard cage will require hand fitting to match up, but either way is good by me. Steve

[BJuby]

Sounds good. Yes I have an outstanding Mark 25 crankshaft candidate that I am hoping to use.

[BJuby]

An update, having rings fitted for FD-53 in the near future

[BJuby]

Well some disappointing news with regard to FD-53. I had sent the engine to have some minor repairs done, such as helicoils and welding, bores checked, and then reassembled. Steve emailed me today that the upper reedcage is shot, it has a large amount of slop between the crank journal and reedcage surface. Due to this issue, the reedcage apparently grooved into the journal. I am exploring all options, but it looks like I will have to have the crank replaced as well as a reedcage bored and modified to fit the Quincy engine. Additionally, looks like this engine was run and run hard, but put away wet. Steve has noticed some fuel/water marks on some areas of the engine. Well, it needs to be right, no complaining here as once it is ready it will run and run great. More updates to follow.

[BJuby]

After a replaced crank, new reed cage, and being reassembled by Steve the engine is back home. Spent some time making new gaskets and opening up some of the holes on the tower and adapter plate which were just a little off. Fuel pumps are internally and cosmetically cleaned and the horns are installed. I started cleaning the carbs and opened them up to make sure that all the internal parts and their sizes are equal between the two. The pair I had set aside were indeed exactly the same between the two. I have a carter throttle bracket for the engine which I painted and is now installed. It has been suggested I remove one of the springs from each pipe and replace with wire to save them in case the springs break. Here are some photos.

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59139

[J-Dub]

Did Steve safety wire those reed cage bolts???


J-Dub

[BJuby]

Did Steve safety wire those reed cage bolts???


J-Dub

Yup.

[J-Dub]

Steve,

I have had my *** chewed for this in the past... As a public service, and as a smart -*** friend, I have taken the time to locate and attach the following informational video for you, pay close attention at 30 seconds: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZ6uaRvFpXM

I hope you find this helpful,
Your friend ;),
J-Dub

[Steve Litzell]

Steve,

I have had my *** chewed for this in the past... As a public service, and as a smart -*** friend, I have taken the time to locate and attach the following informational video for you, pay close attention at 30 seconds: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZ6uaRvFpXM

I hope you find this helpful,


Your friend ;),
J-Dub

yes I did, and can you tell me what the letter KMRNA is???? Buddddie???? Piston is coming to you tomorrow in a fresh box of Cow SH C.O.D.! Steve

[BJuby]

Ignition is hung and carbs installed along with their wiring. Just need to time the engine and set everything else up. The ignition box and coil will be in the boat, which means I need to get some extra wires that are long enough.

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[BJuby]

Where are people getting methanol resistant transparent fuel line? After some thought, for piece of mind I would prefer to use clear or transparent fuel lines for the engines.

[J-Dub]

http://fuel-line.com/ These are good quality lines, with good elasticity. This is what I use, and provided you have the correct fittings, hose clamps are not required. It makes for a nice, clean look and easier to maintain your fuel system. Its about 1000% better that the line you can buy at your local hardware store.

J-Dub

[BJuby]

Perfect, thanks bud. I'll order a bunch for all the engines we're working on.

[J-Dub]

Here are the fittings I use. again, not your standard hardware store fittings.
http://www.dormanproducts.com/itemdetail.aspx?ProductID=46671&SEName=785-412

J-Dub