Fa-90

[BJuby]

Acquired another looper a couple weeks ago. An "A" in excellent shape. I am having pistons made and rings sized and fitted for it. Also, the cage that it came with blew a corner (probably the cause of it being retired) and I am having another one machined to replace it from a Mark 25 cage. I have an NOS Mark 25 crank for it. I will also be getting 16:21 gears for it and likely a thunderbolt style ignition, but the ignition system it came with is pictured below. Also if people could please keep an eye out for an appropriate flywheel for the "A" looper. I have some of the belt driven flywheel hubs (which I will need for thunderbolt ignition), but their tapers are huge, not correct for a Mark 25 crank. Thanks and enjoy.

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55838

[BJuby]

I am still in search of a flywheel for FA-90. Please direct me to anyone that might have one if you know. Both loopers FA-90 and FD-53 were sent out for piston and ring fittings. Thanks a lot.

[BJuby]

Some pictures just came in from Steve, who is making the pistons for FA-90

http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i326/Astrolia44/FA-90Piston1_zps9a5b7215.jpg

http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i326/Astrolia44/FA-90Piston2_zps3f88bb98.jpg

http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i326/Astrolia44/FA-90Piston3_zps265cd177.jpg

[BJuby]

Got the front and mid crank cases back with modified Mark 25 cage along with head back today. The crankcase cleaned up very nice. A sharp eye can see that on the front of the front crank case there is a number 90, which coincides with the block serial number FA-90.

http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i326/Astrolia44/5E108D1C-CE7D-4134-9712-2918AF5AE7D4_zpschyqtm28.jpg

http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i326/Astrolia44/467284BF-0766-4812-AF6E-5A270A501984_zpszidw9pzk.jpg

[John Schubert T*A*R*T]

I am still in search of a flywheel for FA-90. Please direct me to anyone that might have one if you know. Both loopers FA-90 and FD-53 were sent out for piston and ring fittings. Thanks a lot.
Brandon,

Not sure I remember which 2 cylinder motor but Merc made one that the hub bolted to the rest of the flywheel & the taper was the same as the MK25 crank. I've used them on my Loopers. You can also take a regular MK25 crank & have it machined, and if you go with the Thunderbolt ignition system, you'll nee to have the outer diameter of the base machined & pinned to accept the pulley for the belt

[BJuby]

Thanks John. Steve found us a flywheel hub with pulley and is fabricating a rope sheave for us. I will be using the battery driven mercury system for this engine, just like the A looper you had (which by the way looked very nice).

[BJuby]

For some reason wouldn't let me attach photos and text, weird. Anyway. Pistons are finished, rope plate is also done. Next is ignition adapter plate.

[BJuby]

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56382

[BJuby]

Some work on the A looper. Got the reed cage together and assembled on the Mark 25 crank. Next I will be installing both top and lower bearings and checking for end play. This is all with the pistons removed, I removed them after I checked the way the washers I had fit.

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[BJuby]

New set of CCMS fiber reeds arrived and are now installed on the reedcage. I have stumbled across an issue with the crank to crank case assembly. From the picture below you can see that the crank case wants to accept two ball bearings on the upper side. Those who are familiar with mark 25 cranks know that the surface area of the upper part of the crank is only enlarged enough to accept one bearing. I am going to have a custom bearing made to accept the smaller diameter area of the crank, or find an existing bearing of the correct specs. This one bearing is now holding up the engine from being completed.

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[Mike Schmidt]

Quincy used to build a sleeve to go from the roller bearing top diameter of the 20-H / 25 crankshaft to same size as the lower ball bearing diameter. Check their price list.

Michael

[BJuby]

Interesting. And I assume it worked? There was/is no danger of the sleeve spinning on the crankshaft?

[BJuby]

Going to have a sleeve made for the engine. Then I can finally assemble and finish this project.

[BJuby]

What were the sizes of the carb throat on Carter N's that were used for A Loopers? I have several bodies to choose from varying in size, all Carter N's. Over this vacation I am completing assembly on FA-90. Shimming is all worked out, just need to put it together.

[John Schubert T*A*R*T]

What were the sizes of the carb throat on Carter N's that were used for A Loopers? I have several bodies to choose from varying in size, all Carter N's. Over this vacation I am completing assembly on FA-90. Shimming is all worked out, just need to put it together.
FA's & FC's were 1 1/16 FB's & FD's were 1 1/8

[BJuby]

FA's & FC's were 1 1/16 FB's & FD's were 1 1/8

That's the outer diameter of the throat right? What about the inside? The one's I have all taper differently, some are small on the inside, while others are much larger. Thanks John.

[John Schubert T*A*R*T]

Brandon,

Dick O'Dea did my carbs & as far as I recall the sizes I mentioned were the venturi sizes. I don't believe that he altered either the carb front opening or the the barrel size behind the venturi to the CC

[Gene East]

Quincy Welding used a custom made reamer for B&D carbs and A&C were not reamed. As I recall, John is correct on the size.

I have to think if you have carbs with widely varying I.D.'s, they may have been worked on by someone other than Q.W.

What's that I just heard? Ray Rodda just gave Santa and Rudolph "5 minutes to the 3"!

Merry Christmas everyone!!!

[BJuby]

These carbs are in a box of float less Carters I got a couple years ago. Interestingly enough, not a single one of the loopers I have came with carbs. I'll post pictures when the time comes. Merry Christmas all.

[BJuby]

Anyone have two of these? Another thing neither of my 2 cylinders have.

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[Gene East]

These carbs are in a box of float less Carters I got a couple years ago. Interestingly enough, not a single one of the loopers I have came with carbs. I'll post pictures when the time comes. Merry Christmas all.

Like Quincy Loopers and old boat racers, Carter Model N's are becoming a rare commodity!

Merry Christmas!

[John Schubert T*A*R*T]

Anyone have two of these? Another thing neither of my 2 cylinders have.

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Brandon,

Most used the 20H conversion front port side throttle connector with the arm for the starter cut off. Won't move as a single attachment point connector would & actually looked better.

Merry Xmas

[champ20B]

Anyone have two of these? Another thing neither of my 2 cylinders have.

59032

Even if you don't have the means to cast aluminum, you can still probably make these by casting them of melted down solder. It isn't quite as strong as aluminum but its plenty good enough for a wire bracket and will look just as good. You could probably make the mold out of plaster. The solder can likely be melted down in a steel pot on a charcoal grill. You can speed it up by blowing air into the coals with a air compressor. Be very careful though as hot ash will fly around a good bit.

[Ron Hill]

There is a local foundry called Miller Foundry, who will sand cast anything you need...1 off or 500 pieces, ask for Susan.

I'll post the phone number.

[John Schubert T*A*R*T]

There is a local foundry called Miller Foundry, who will sand cast anything you need...1 off or 500 pieces, ask for Susan.

I'll post the phone number.
Frank Erion has already had them re-produced and are available.

[BJuby]

Thanks for the tips guys. Sent frank an email.

[BJuby]

Got some work done on the A looper, FA-90. Shimming is all set. This project is definitely a tester of patience but I am also learning a lot as I go. I assembled the crank case front and mid together following the correct assembly procedure for these engines. I discovered when rotating the crankshaft with pistons that there was not just a snag, but a wall preventing full engine rotation. After some discussions with Steve and some investigation of my own I ended up taking the dremel and went to work on the rod channels within the front case. According to Steve, this is somewhat of a common issue. I went conservatively, but it became apparent that almost the entire area needed to be ground to some degree. Well, I finally, got it to rotate free. Of course with one problem solved I get another. After installing the bottom bearing carrier the engine won't turn at all, zero. Even after I backed out the bearing carrier. Strange. I took a break since I spent a couple hours finely grinding down the case, cleaning, installing, grinding, cleaning installing until it fit. Well, at least I have made some progress. More to come.

http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i326/Astrolia44/B8EE2BB9-E1E3-4FF5-ADBE-7D66DC2C83C6_zpsxoluyibg.jpg

http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i326/Astrolia44/7A119DB0-70BB-4C5E-A9DC-006194981C6E_zps4017hobg.jpg

http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i326/Astrolia44/C460AFBA-282C-4C0E-8C8D-83020B56A731_zps6hy718ci.jpg

[Steve Litzell]

Question, How can you have the shimming correct without the lower bearing adaptor in place? Too many shims now I expect. Steve

[BJuby]

I checked for crank end play already. I could not get the bearing carrier on with the midcase attached to the block without a gasket. Once I had the crank in without pistons I installed the front, while the mid was still secure to the block. I then after tightening everything down, removed the case from the block, reinstalled the bearing carrier and installed the pistons. Then placed on the block again with gasket. No movement. Removed the barrier carrier, there is movement.

[Steve Litzell]

It is too tight then, or you forgot the gasket. Steve

[Mike Schmidt]

Almost smells like the case has been surfaced at some point over the years. Pull the crank out, bolt the cases together and then install the lower bearing carrier. See if the aft face of the bearing carrier is flush with the aft face of the crankcase when they are assembled......

??????

Michael

[BJuby]

I did all of that, the bearing carrier fit properly with the case many times during the shimming process. The gasket was on, I guess I'll start over. Might have a chance to look at it today. Thanks everyone.

[A/B Speedliner]

Brandon
I do not know if this has an effect on your current problem but it looks like in the photo's that the reed stops are not set to the same height. One appears to be open so nearly touching the crank weight.

David

[rumleyfips]

That's what I thought I saw too. It also looks to me as if the cage is closer to the upper throw than to the bottom throw.

[A/B Speedliner]

The difference between the top and bottom throws is usually corrected when the bottom bearing is installed which will force the crank up to the correct end play. It looks like the left side and right side stops on top are not the same with the left one closer to the throw.

[BJuby]

It's the angle of the photo. I just started taking it apart, they are set exactly the same. Also, about the cage being centered. There is no locator pin, so it's sitting there as close as possible. It centers when everything was together.

[BJuby]

Well, despite multiple careful and painstaking times setting shimming correctly it ended up being the issue. I must have with the multiple times taking them on and off to adjust shimming misplaced or mixed up the shims I was using. It ended up being .4mm too much shim. However it happened, it is now correct. I haven't buttoned it down again yet because I found another catch spot. Just finished grinding it back down. Smooth as butter. Time for a relaxing time in the outdoor hot tub in the nice falling snow

Thanks a lot everyone, really appreciate it.

[Steve Litzell]

Get your A$$ out of that hot tube and get that thing together! 3 Minute gun has fired!:p At least you are learning a little that we went through in the 60's and early 70"s:) Steve

[BJuby]

So after assembly again, the engine moved, but was still kind of tight. Removing any number of shims did not help. It was at this point that I realized I had taken the engine as far as I could with the equipment I have. As some suspected there were some issues here. According to Steve the crank was straight at bottom and middle but off .005 on the top. Oops. The bottom bearing carrier was not right and was creating a bind. Additionally the rods were still slightly touching inside the front case despite me grinding down the rod passages considerably. It is now spinning freely. I should have it home in a couple weeks. I really want to get one of these together myself (all the way ;) ), so I am sending a crank for a new B looper we acquired down to be straightened/checked and anything else I can think of. Hopefully the B will not be as problematic, or at least I can do it all myself. After the B, comes the F.

Thanks for all the pointers, ideas, and help everyone.

[crewman060]

When u say down,how far?to atlanta,middle georgia(heard that fellow still around)or south georgia,that man and his son still around.Or maybe south carolina,a very talented youth down there,who can do things.

[BJuby]

Georgia, it all goes to Steve.

[smittythewelder]

If this engine is to be a runner as well as a display motor, when you are grinding for clearance for the rod big-end, I don't think "just enough" IS enough. The crank/rods are going to "grow" a bit when the engine is wound up. Maybe cut out a long, very narrow strip of sheet shim-stock (the experts here could tell you how much clearance you want, but I think it would be fairly substantial) spray some bluing on it, lay it in the bottom of a rod channel, and then see where you're at. Gene? Mike? Steve?

The late Smokey Yunick once described a dyno run of a Chevy racemotor that was conducted under stroboscopic lighting so that the action could be slowed down and made visible to the mechanics. It was a sobering sight! Smokey said that the camshaft looked like a snake trying to squirm its way out of the engine, and every other part was wriggling and winding up and releasing in the most alarming fashion. This is why you might have .028-.035" clearance between the piston top and the head in a cold motor, so that when the engine is working hard you'll still have something more than zero clearance. I'm guessing your rod channels should be looked at in the same way.

[F-12]

Many years ago, when my Dad got our first NEW A Flathead, after it arrived at his shop the rods would not pass as well as he wanted. After talking to O. F., he told me how we were going to make the correct clearance.................crank it! Worked like a charm and we ran that engine for a long, long time before we had to touch it.

[A/B Speedliner]

Brutus makes the best tools, lol

[BJuby]

Steve told me a similar story about O.F. telling him the same thing about his A looper. But you can't be too careful with a rare irreplaceable engine.

[Gene East]

Many years ago, when my Dad got our first NEW A Flathead, after it arrived at his shop the rods would not pass as well as he wanted. After talking to O. F., he told me how we were going to make the correct clearance.................crank it! Worked like a charm and we ran that engine for a long, long time before we had to touch it.

Charley, I'm glad you posted this. I was going to do so, but was concerned someone would think I was nuts!
I've seen a lot of crank cases with shiny spots in them.
However, I do understand Brandon's concern in this area. Sadly, his motor (or any other Looper; for that matter) will never be competitive in it's new lifetime, so who cares if it's a little loose?
Brandon, thank you for restoring these wonderful old motors. Yes; I know, technically they are engines but the word motor implies something warm and lovable like a Lab puppy.
Engine sounds cold and sterile.
I loved my Labs and I love those old motors built at 5th & State!

[Steve Litzell]

Charley, I'm glad you posted this. I was going to do so, but was concerned someone would think I was nuts!
I've seen a lot of crank cases with shiny spots in them.
However, I do understand Brandon's concern in this area. Sadly, his motor (or any other Looper; for that matter) will never be competitive in it's new lifetime, so who cares if it's a little loose?
Brandon, thank you for restoring these wonderful old motors. Yes; I know, technically they are engines but the word motor implies something warm and lovable like a Lab puppy.
Engine sounds cold and sterile.
I loved my Labs and I love those old motors built at 5th & State!

Don't worry Gene, I'm taking care of him and doing good work on his flatheads, Steve

[BJuby]

Don't worry Gene, I'm taking care of him and doing good work on his flatheads, Steve

Yes you are and yes you do! Can't say enough about the top notch work Steve does. He has another package coming soon :p

[BJuby]

Coming together. The Fairbanks ignition is a placeholder for now. Just have to get the throttle brackets installed. I plan on making a spray shield for it as well. I have a foot for it, just need to complete the rebuild. Have the 16:21 gears for it.

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[BJuby]

First video of it's first start in probably 40 years or more. This is with gas this time out. I need to get some methnol :cool: Thanks to Steve Litzell for his tremendous effort and expertise helping to get this thing built. I will probably start the "B" next and then the "D". The "D" will likely be the first one run on a boat later this season.

EDIT: Look to the next page.

[Steve Litzell]

Cain't wait for the four banger video! Nuttin like a four banger flathead running, Good job , Steve

[BJuby]

Thanks Steve. Once again, it's the last posting on the previous page. I'm a little OCD like that so here it is again. Promise I won't post it again, hahaha.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9G7W5qBwrHw

[BJuby]

This past September. The boat is a little small for the boat and it was rough. Got a decent pull at the end. Left the extra stuff in to show my giddiness. Also pardon my French :p I was very excited. Dad didn't know the camera was still recording. Oh just a sidenote. I am running the old Fairbanks ignition on it and the engine never loaded up on me. Ran great.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xra57BmoRFw