Old Looper Pipes

[J-Dub]

Can anyone tell me about these? I would guess these are off my Dad's first A Looper.
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Thanks,
J-Dub

[Gene East]

Boy those are old. The megaphones appear to be Quincy deflectors that were adapted in the field to fit the Looper side plate. I don't remember doing the adaptation, but the megs look like mine. Hope this helps you. What was the S/N on your Dad's FA?

[BJuby]

J-Dub has FA-1, he might be referring to that one. It would make sense that these pipes came with the first produced "A" looper. Just a thought.

[J-Dub]

Yes, Dad still had FA-1. Sounds like when I restore it I should put these back on it!

J-Dub

[Gene East]

FA-1!

Wow, what a treasure!

You absolutely must put it back together with those steel pipes. I feel certain I made the megaphones.

I wish I could tell you without doubt that I adapted them to the side plates, but I sometimes forget what I had for breakfast and this was 50 years ago!

The only people who might know would be Jim Schoch or Frank Volker. As far as I know Jim does not do internet.

Frank sometimes monitors BRF. Frank did most of the dyno work @ QW. He often drew up pipe modifications and I built them, then Frank ran them on the dyno. Perhaps he might read this and be able to shed some light.

Personally, I felt all the early Loopers were shipped with the cast aluminum pipes. Maybe Chris sent the modified pipes to your Dad to try since this was one of the first Loopers in competition. I just don't know!

I believe Paul Christner is too young to know the answer, and everyone else who may have known is racing on Lake Paradise!

[J-Dub]

Thanks Gene! I think that'll be one of my next restorations.

J-Dub

[Gene East]

Good Luck and best wishes!

[BJuby]

J-Dub, aren't you glad you posted about these now? Haha, had a feeling they were special. Now you know where you're going to put them on. NICE! :cool:

[Ron Hill]

Carl Meyers bought an A Looper in the spring of 1966. This is the same motor I broke the A Runabout Kilo with at Parker, Thanksgiving weekend. 48 years this week. I wonder what serial number Carl's motor was?

[Gene East]

I'm thinking late 1964, Paul Christner has all the records. He can tell you the S/R of Carl Meyers' motor

[Ron Hill]

I'm thinking 1964, Paul Christner has all the records. He can tell you the S/R of Carl Meyers' motor

At DePue, 1966, I was half a lap a head of the second place A Runabout when I broke a rod and flipped. Dave Christner begged Carl Meyers for our props. He said, "Any prop that would push that 250 pounder than fast, will push me too." Carl didn't sell him the prop. Our "REBUILT" LOOPER had the new rods...

Anyone ever figure ut why the "A" Looper was so fast and the "B" Looper wasn't much better than the "A"???


Hell, MY Quincy "A" which had been Carl Meyers' was faster than Harry Bartolomei's "B" Looper. Harry ran a pint of degummed castor oil to five gallons of methanol. We ran a quart of Bakers "AA" castor oil to five gallon of methanol. Any thoughts about this??

Also, my dad liked to run the compression ratio up......

What ever happened to the Quincy Looper paterns???

[R Austin]

Something strange about the cast elbow. It looks like the bolt right in front of the elbow would be right in the 3rd port machine hole. ??? The looper forward bolts straddled the 3rd port. Maybe something about the design of the first looper I don't know?

[Gene East]

Dick, I spoke with Paul Christner today. He has the original cyl. block. He says that set of cylinders was not 3rd ported. I've asked him to post a picture of that block on this forum.

Warning, this is a very crude piece of aluminum with a lot of welding but it had some well pedigreed offsprings

[BJuby]

Paul sent me the photos of the "B" Looper prototype. He said he was unable to post the photos, it was not working for him. As you said Gene, it did not have a 3rd Port. Here are all the photos that he sent me. He is very confident that the elbows and horns are indeed Quincy parts. Now we just need pictures of FA-1 to see if it has or does not have a 3rd port!

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[champ20B]

Every time I see one of these Quincy cross-flow twin cyl blocks, I always wonder why the Swanson Hotrod guys didn't make one of these with flat top pistons?....
Just imagine a 15 or 20ci rotary valve Hotrod looper! That would have took "A" and "B" class alky championships by storm back then.

[Gene East]

When Chris first told me he was going to build an engine that had intakes and exhausts on both sides of the cylinder I couldn't comprehend how that could be.

When he came back from the foundry with this chunk of aluminum and then started welding all the chutes and water jackets etc. on it; I thought "My God, he's the Mad Scientist".

The early cylinders were ported by Chris on a mill he built from steel. Steel has too much spring and it was very difficult to hold spec. on the ports.

Chris finally broke down and bought a small Cincinnati vertical end mill and a Bridgeport. Prior to that, the only milling machine we had was a horizontal mill about 100 years old. Al Herrmann machined the castings into cylinder blocks and Chris taught me how to machine the ports. Prior to that I was only a welder.

I drilled a pilot hole the wrong angle on a D cylinder that was for Bill Seebold. I went to Chris with my hat in my hand fully expecting to be fired. Chris simply said, "The man who don't make a mistake once in a while is the man who don't do nothin".

Chris didn't always use proper grammar, but he got his point across. I'd love to hear him say "Biggen it up or little it down" just once more.

Rather than firing me like I expected, Chris had Al weld up my mistake and re-sleeve the block. I then did it right.

That engine turned out to be one of the fastest FD's we ever built. Bill Seebold won a lot of races with that engine!

Bill and I have been friends since we were 17 years old. One day I told him what had happened during the building of his FD. He laughed and said we should build all of them that way.

J-Dub; if you're reading this, please post a picture of the ports on your Dad's FA-1. I'd love to know if it was ported on the home made mill or if it was ported on the Cincinnati.

Believe me, we both would know!

If it was ported on the home made mill, I would imagine it would be more valuable although we both know you would never sell it.

[J-Dub]

Will do Gene! It looks like that will be my next restoration. I do remember Dad telling me several of his cylinder blocks had a lot of travel back and forth to Quincy Welding back in the day (FA-1, FB-6, FB-110 and I believe another FA as well). I know he still remembered the address to Quincy Welding because he would occasionally recite to me. So with that, I am sure it was updated as time went on, but I am sure you would be able to identify the updates compared to OEM.

*Also, I cant thank you enough for all your incite on the history you are sharing with us. Thanks to you and all the contributors to these topics!**

J-Dub

[R Austin]

Gene

You had corrected someone stating that the Looper was out as early as 1664. I remembered some pictures that I have been converting that my father had taken at Lake Spivey at the 1964 NOA Nationals. I browsed through them the other night and found some pictures from the pits.

Let me say first that the block in the pictures of the previous post is not ugly but a thing of beauty and pure genius. The die hard old fashion way, of that time, to bring an idea to something tangible.

Dad had taken some pictures through the pits and as I looked through them, the first picture he had taken of me by my boat and the engine just left of center with a gentleman bent over it looked like it had 2 horizontal exhaust pipes on it so I zoomed in on it. It looked enough like a Looper to confirm they were there in 1964. I zoomed in on the next picture to see if somebody would recognized the individual working on it.

I the continued through the rest of the pictures and found one that had been taken a little closer and more to the aft, however the complete motor was covered with the exception of the back of the pipes. What you see is the aft half of the elbows with the steel cones as pictured in the previous post. I did two zoom ins , although grainy, there can be no mistake of what they are. It looks as they had shorten the steel cone and were just a little shorter that the final aluminum cone.

I reversed the order of the 4th and 5th pictures.

I included a picture of the rocky hill side where the pits of Quincy landed because of your late arrival. I remember that the word was going around through the pits that Quincy was going to build a 4 cylinder version of their new motor.

Was the 3rd port being used in the deflector at that time? I find it interesting that the first Looper did not have the 3rd post if it did exist at that time in the deflecters.


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[champ20B]

At DePue, 1966, I was half a lap a head of the second place A Runabout when I broke a rod and flipped. Dave Christner begged Carl Meyers for our props. He said, "Any prop that would push that 250 pounder than fast, will push me too." Carl didn't sell him the prop. Our "REBUILT" LOOPER had the new rods...

Anyone ever figure ut why the "A" Looper was so fast and the "B" Looper wasn't much better than the "A"???


Hell, MY Quincy "A" which had been Carl Meyers' was faster than Harry Bartolomei's "B" Looper. Harry ran a pint of degummed castor oil to five gallons of methanol. We ran a quart of Bakers "AA" castor oil to five gallon of methanol. Any thoughts about this??

Also, my dad liked to run the compression ratio up......

What ever happened to the Quincy Looper paterns???

Well, looking at the following pics of the block prototype, it did not look like a carefully thought out design. The probable reason why it wasn't faster was likely because the exhaust ports were facing against one another, and all that will do is to expose opposing piston skirts to a un-necessary blast of direct exhaust heat. It could have caused unwanted friction from expansion and/or may have burned away needed lubrication as well if run lean. Quincy did well back then in the larger 30-40+cid classes until the opposed four cylinder 500-700cc konigs came around, but Konig and Anzani seemed like better engines in the two cylinder "A" and "B" classes "early on" probably because of better exhaust port arrangement at least. Even the simple stock based Alky A-B mercs could just about equal them at times.

[Gene East]

Will do Gene! It looks like that will be my next restoration. I do remember Dad telling me several of his cylinder blocks had a lot of travel back and forth to Quincy Welding back in the day (FA-1, FB-6, FB-110 and I believe another FA as well). I know he still remembered the address to Quincy Welding because he would occasionally recite to me. So with that, I am sure it was updated as time went on, but I am sure you would be able to identify the updates compared to OEM.

*Also, I cant thank you enough for all your incite on the history you are sharing with us. Thanks to you and all the contributors to these topics!**

J-Dub

Which address did your Dad quote? Northwest corner of 5th and State, or the official P.O. address 431 State St.?

Personally, I liked the first one better

[J-Dub]

I'm pretty sure it was the 431 State street.

[Gene East]

Well, looking at the following pics of the block prototype, it did not look like a carefully thought out design. The probable reason why it wasn't faster was likely because the exhaust ports were facing against one another, and all that will do is to expose opposing piston skirts to a un-necessary blast of direct exhaust heat. It could have caused unwanted friction from expansion and/or may have burned away needed lubrication as well if run lean. Quincy did well back then in the larger 30-40+cid classes until the opposed four cylinder 500-700cc konigs came around, but Konig and Anzani seemed like better engines in the two cylinder "A" and "B" classes "early on" probably because of better exhaust port arrangement at least. Even the simple stock based Alky A-B mercs could just about equal them at times.

With all due respect, I disagree with your assessment of Looper vs Konig & Anzani. Your statement regarding "simple stock based Alky A-B mercs" equaling a Looper at times is wishful thinking.

RE your comment, "it didn't look like a carefully thought out design". I'm certain there may be an element of truth there.
However, please be advised the first time this crude power head was run on a boat it was 3 mph faster than our best modified 20-H. Back to back runs with no setup changes, just a P/H swap. I believe most people would consider that a success.

By the way, a simple check of the record books will prove the Merc-Quincy Looper was one "Hell of a good motor" in it's day.

I'm extremely proud to have been associated with the man who didn't carefully think out his design

[J-Dub]

This my "Poorly Designed" Looper that was built in 19-Who-Knows-When that ran faster on two different occasions than my 2005 700cc Konny... And my Konny ain't no slouch...
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J-Dub

[champ20B]

That's an 1100cc Quincy though and a really nice one at that. I know its not a 700 like your Konny. And its not a poor design. The inline four or six cylinder engines couldn't help but have facing exhaust ports because of cylinder arrangement. I think Quincy did very well for their time in history based from the mercury platform. They just did not have to go that route with their two cylinders though. They may have had better "A" and "B" engines if they hadn't. The 20cid racers of all kinds are my favorites.

[John Schubert T*A*R*T]

That's an 1100cc Quincy though and a really nice one at that. I know its not a 700 like your Konny. And its not a poor design. The inline four or six cylinder engines couldn't help but have facing exhaust ports because of cylinder arrangement. I think Quincy did very well for their time in history based from the mercury platform. They just did not have to go that route with their two cylinders though. They may have had better "A" and "B" engines if they hadn't. The 20cid racers of all kinds are my favorites.
Personally I don't believe that you actually know what you are talking about. The A & B's were extremely strong & fast. I won the B championship in 1968 against the almost new 4 cylinder Konigs. Gerry Waldman was winning the A class in to the 70's although I should have beat him with my FA Konig in 1969 but he was just as fast & maybe even faster in to the early 70's.

[Steve Litzell]

Every time I see one of these Quincy cross-flow twin cyl blocks, I always wonder why the Swanson Hotrod guys didn't make one of these with flat top pistons?....
Just imagine a 15 or 20ci rotary valve Hotrod looper! That would have took "A" and "B" class alky championships by storm back then.

That is not a cross flow motor, it is the first cast or redo of a standard set of cylinders that were converted to Loop type. Got a little late to the party but back in the day of these motors, they were King. Though there were some good Konig's and Anzanti's but the average racer could buy a Flathead and kick A$$ on the Konig guy's. The A was my favorite as the two cylinders go but All the 4 and 6 cylinder models would turn my Crank. Back in these day's the Quincy Price Sheet showed all the parts and prices if you wanted to build a motor yourself, and they had prices so that you could send a Mk 15 or 20H type block to them to have it converted to a looper. Gene should / remember this. ( I know we are getting old buddy). Steve

[Gene East]

Who are you calling old, Steve?

Talk louder, I can't hear you!

Let me turn up my hearing aid. I stood to close to too many Loopers.

Happy Thanksgiving to all my boat racing buddies and their families!

[racnbns]

Gene
I hear you loud and clear. I sure had fun making music with my Quincy Loopers!
Bruce

[J-Dub]

I took this picture at Devils Lake a few months ago... It wasn't a tough decision...

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J-Dub

[Gene East]

I'm assuming you went with the "Tower of Power"!

[J-Dub]

I did Gene, until learned that the fuel pumps won't maintain sufficient fuel supply at 9500 sustained RPM... On my first attempt we entered the "Traps" at 96 mph and accelerating until the engine went lean... Put the Konny on and averaged 95.5 mph.

[champ20B]

Personally I don't believe that you actually know what you are talking about. The A & B's were extremely strong & fast. I won the B championship in 1968 against the almost new 4 cylinder Konigs. Gerry Waldman was winning the A class in to the 70's although I should have beat him with my FA Konig in 1969 but he was just as fast & maybe even faster in to the early 70's.

I never said it wasn't fast or successful. I was just giving an honest and intelligent critique of what I see based on my abilities which by the way, have and still serve me very well without a doubt. Ron Hill mentioned that a particular Quincy "A" was as fast as another racers Looper "B".... So Im wrong for thinking that taking away exhaust heat exposure between cylinders and against piston skirts wouldn't have made it faster than it already was regardless I suppose.

Ill just leave it alone as a exclusive discussion. Have a good Thanks-Giving everybody!

[Steve Litzell]

Who are you calling old, Steve?

Talk louder, I can't hear you!

Let me turn up my hearing aid. I stood to close to too many Loopers.

Happy Thanksgiving to all my boat racing buddies and their families!

Talking to all my old Loop Buddies! Looper service has helped me out around the house when the MRS speaks:o Steve Oh JDub, give me a call you want 60 ci or 66 ci????

[J-Dub]

Steve, Why would you ask such a dumb question???:eek: I really expected more from you...:confused: I will type this out for you reeeeal slow so you can keep up.:p SIXTY SIX! 66, 2 9/16", 2.5625".
Si?

J-Dub:cool:

[Gene East]

J-Dub

Cut him some slack. He's old!

Oops; my bad, he's younger than me.

[BJuby]

Oh boy! Are we ganging up on Steve? I should join considering the bad news he gave me today. ;)

[smittythewelder]

Fascinating to see that prototype!!

Champ, understand that they very well might have later added material to that experimental block in the photo to aim the exhaust ports out and away from each other, because this was done on the early-version production engines, probably including John Myers' #1 A motor (we need that photo!). On a later version, the ones with the wide-swept pipe elbows, the early exhaust "separator" was extended beyond the block and several inches into the elbow, whereas the early-version separator stopped maybe 3/8" in from the edge of the port. O.F. Christner was out in Seattle one year when the APBA national meeting was held here, and I asked him about the new, very long exhaust splitter and the new wide-swept elbows as versus the previous set-up. He told me that you could modify a first-version block by extending the splitter by the 3/8" out to the edge of the port, and get most of the power improvement even if you kept the old elbows.

I'm pretty sure it was 1966, my second year of racing, that John Myers and then his dad Bill started running their first A and B loopers. The B versions looked like all the early-version loopers everybody has seen, but the first A's had much skinnier, smaller-angle megaphones plugged into the elbows. But I don't remember ever seeing those welded elbows; what a find, J Dub!!

As to early loopers vs. other motors, I doubt that many Anzanis other than the ones that had been heavily developed by Hallum and Anderson would be any more than more-or-less even competition, even in the earliest years of loopers. I saw a lot of this, and I know that by maybe 1969, John Myers had an early-version A Loop that was very fast, and no ordinary Konig and certainly no ordinary Anzani would have kept up with it. I'd love to see J Dub built THAT engine, put it on a period-correct hydro, and run a few laps at an SOA race; that engine sang a sweet song!!

[Steve Litzell]

Oh boy! Are we ganging up on Steve? I should join considering the bad news he gave me today. ;)

Go Ahead, I've got big shoulders, And Gene and I go back awhile so he gets a pass, J Dub...... Well he just needs to learn to respect his elders or I will sic Fuchslin on him

[Gene East]

Smitty,

Thanks for joining in on the Looper vs Konig/Anzani debate. No one can deny there were a select few Anzanis that were very fast.

The gentlemen responsible for those engines deserve a lot of credit. I certainly respect their accomplishments. But as you said these were not the typical Anzanis.

Had I been the first to make that statement, it would have sounded like sour grapes. Thank you for saying it for me.

[smittythewelder]

As many have observed, everybody's dyno seems to read different, or at least people are interpreting things differently (if not, uh, exaggerating). Still, if you remember them, Gene, or if Frank Volker does, I'd be interested to see a series of horsepower-at-rpm figures for the various Quincy motors, by version. For one thing, you could dismiss Champ's incorrect idea (assuming I have this right, Champ) that the first version loopers of around 1966 were not much faster at that early stage of development than the cross-flow Mercs and Hot Rods were at what was then their well-developed stage. So if you recall, Gene, what were the figures for the deflector engines by that point, and what were the figures for the first version loopers that were sold in big numbers? And if you know the figures for the next stage of looper development, the ones with the wide-swept pipes, that would also be interesting.

Champ, you are certainly right that if that first crude prototype block had gone into production as we see it in the photo and with no modification, the exhaust arrangement would have been sub-optimal for sure. But I'm pretty sure that by the time Quincy was shipping the first loopers, they had separated the exhaust streams of the upper and lower cylinders on both sides in the block. The porting was different from the prototype, too (that really is an interesting photo!). Subject to J Dub posting a photo of A Loop #1, which I saw on the water many times but never saw in pieces, my guess is that it looks like the rest of the production run.

Champ, let me also say that when I disagree with your idea that in those early looper years a good deflector could almost keep up, I'm not jumping to defend the reputation or feelings of the Christner family, Gene East, Frank Volker, or anybody who owned loopers. I never owned one back then (have three now), and with my early, skinny-pipe Konig I beat John Myers and was beat by him. None of what I say is about protecting anybody's ego, and I hope it doesn't bother you either, Champ, because you always have interesting observations here and on the other site.

In the first couple of years of the first version loopers (talking class A and B here) I got to see several of them and their competitors here in Reg. 10. There were A and B Hubbell and Quincy Mercurys, some FA Konigs with the early skinny expansion chambers, two or three FB Konigs, a few single-carb Anzanis (all A's, IIRC), the faster A and B Anzanis of Hallum and Anderson, two 2-carb B Harrisons, and a couple of Hot Rods. Oh, and I can't forget Bill Myers deflector B Konig, which he ran for a year while John ran the loopers (I have this motor now, and am trying to get J Dub to offer me some absurdly large sum for it for sentimental reasons, but so far he has just yawned).

Now, to compare apples to apples you have to specify that any of the engine types under comparison have to be properly clearanced and assembled, in good tune and running cleanly, and on comparable boats, with similarly good props (and we probably ought to add a condition of warm weather for decent vaporization of the fuel). This was not so easy to do, especially in those days of marginal ignitions. The best ignitions seemed to me to be the heavy Phelon flywheel magneto from the B Stock Mercs, and the somewhat rare, similarly heavy energy-transfer magneto on a few 2 cylinder Konigs. The other mags (Bosch, Sem, and especially Lucas) were less happy for various reasons (not always electrical), and the battery-and-points ignitions were also inadequate. The only big race I ever went out-of-region for was the '68 NOA Nationals at Forest Lake, MN. If Gene remembers that one, it might not be with great pleasure. It was, I'd say, the biggest year for loopers, and there must have been (wild guess) eighty 2-cylinder loopers at that race. And a good seventy of them, with the battery and points, had an ignition miss, just pop-pop-pop every day, all day, about drove me nuts. Of course, very quickly thereafter, the new "transistorized" aftermarket ignitions for cars were widely applied to our outboards to good effect.

So you have to compare a good-running this to a good-running that. With that caveat, Champ, cross-flow Mercs would be doing well to finish within 3/4 of a lap of the early-version loopers (BTW, I never heard the term "flathead" applied to that motor until much later; looper was the Reg. 10 term for them). Same thing with Hot Rods. Stu Lowe, an airline pilot and older brother of Jeff Lowe who was nationally one of the very fastest BSH drivers of the day, had a B Hot Rod built by John Alden in California, meaning it was as good an alky-conversion as you'd find anywhere. Stu Lowe's Hot Rod always ran well, but he wasn't going to beat a B loop or even an A loop that was running right. Most of the non-Hallum Anzanis wouldn't run well long enough to be any threat (a Lucas mag that if it worked at all would tend to shear off the teeth of its drive gear, bad big-end bearings, wimpy gears).

NONE of those engines, as fondly as the old guys remember them, could remotely hope to stay on the same lap with a modern Italian engine, even with modern props and featherlight boats. The ports were all tiny and not well-aimed. They sure were cool in their day, though. The sport owes a huge debt to the Quincy Welding team for turning out a design that let the little guy build a fast motor very inexpensively using a lot of Mercury components he already had, ending up with a simple user-friendly, mechanic-friendly racemotor with a one-piece crankshaft that would run with or beat the more complicated engines from overseas. If you saw your good old deflector equipment made obsolete at a stroke, and had to buy the latest new thing just to keep up, it sure helped that the new thing was relatively cheap, and as easy to work on as racing equipment ever gets.

Thanks, Quincy!!!

[racnbns]

And a racer could blow an engine on Sunday, order the part on Monday, recieve it in the mail middle of the week, and go win a race the following Sunday.

This was before cell phones, computers and U.P.S. Been there, done that!

Thanks again,Quincy.
Bruce

[Steve Litzell]

Smitty discribribes the way it was for sure. But the fact is the divided exhaust appeared in late 69 or through 1970 as i recall. I bought a A from Hap Mulvaney and it did not have the diviveder. That was in 69 and motor was a 67or 68. I blew that new up and purchased a new A FA208 at that time. It had the wide elbows and the dividers were in the elbows as well. In about 71 was when the Nito conversion came about. This conversion was a copper head gasket, and water injected exhaust elbows. There were other mods that was easy to make by the owner to help run down that nasty FA Cast iron Konig. The only thing that saved our butts was the Konig retainers would let go after a couple heats and we beat them on staying together. This was in the A and B classes as by that time the B Konig was 4 cylinder and the flathead had it's hands full, as did the A after Walt Blankenstein found a bearing for the FA from Suzuki for the Fa that gave long term use to the FA. At that time Konig had these bearings made, so this made the loopers back runners. As Dieter Konig said to me while at my house in Florida and looking at my mail box stand, " These motors made much problems for us, and we had to work very hard to beat these. My mail box stand was my A flathead at the time. First came the looper conversion as J Dub has and then came other loopers until they went away in 72 or so. This was I think, the best time to be alive and racing. Steve

[Gene East]

First I'd like to say Smitty did a great job with his last post. Everything he said was open, honest and above board. I do remember the ignition problems we had before CD. I'm sorry I don't know the dyno numbers he asked for. Perhaps Paul Christner may have those answers.

Secondly I'd like to address Steve's quote of Dieter Konig regarding the Looper engines. I remember catching Dieter snooping around in our trailer eyeballing an FA we had disassembled.

I don't think he was even aware that I had walked in behind him until I said,"It runs pretty good doesn't it"? I think he was a bit embarrassed at getting caught. He simply said "Ja,ja" and walked away.

Later Dieter bought a brand new FA P/H through a 3rd party. We know who bought the motor for him and there were no hard feelings. Dieter could have bought a P/H from anyone and besides, that was one more P/H we sold.

This 3rd party person used to call and ask Lucy (our bookkeeper) to let him speak to the MFIC. She finally asked me one day what those letters meant. She blushed a bit when I told her!

This person and I had a good laugh about that and the Konig/Quincy deal at the DePue reunion in 2007.

Bruce's comments about the availability of repair parts was another plus that Konig and Anzani could not match. We shipped most rush parts by Trailways Bus. Most orders were received within 30 hrs of ordering. Many of them were received the following morning.

[champ20B]

As many have observed, everybody's dyno seems to read different, or at least people are interpreting things differently (if not, uh, exaggerating). Still, if you remember them, Gene, or if Frank Volker does, I'd be interested to see a series of horsepower-at-rpm figures for the various Quincy motors, by version. For one thing, you could dismiss Champ's incorrect idea (assuming I have this right, Champ) that the first version loopers of around 1966 were not much faster at that early stage of development than the cross-flow Mercs and Hot Rods were at what was then their well-developed stage. So if you recall, Gene, what were the figures for the deflector engines by that point, and what were the figures for the first version loopers that were sold in big numbers? And if you know the figures for the next stage of looper development, the ones with the wide-swept pipes, that would also be interesting.

Champ, you are certainly right that if that first crude prototype block had gone into production as we see it in the photo and with no modification, the exhaust arrangement would have been sub-optimal for sure. But I'm pretty sure that by the time Quincy was shipping the first loopers, they had separated the exhaust streams of the upper and lower cylinders on both sides in the block. The porting was different from the prototype, too (that really is an interesting photo!). Subject to J Dub posting a photo of A Loop #1, which I saw on the water many times but never saw in pieces, my guess is that it looks like the rest of the production run.

Champ, let me also say that when I disagree with your idea that in those early looper years a good deflector could almost keep up, I'm not jumping to defend the reputation or feelings of the Christner family, Gene East, Frank Volker, or anybody who owned loopers. I never owned one back then (have three now), and with my early, skinny-pipe Konig I beat John Myers and was beat by him. None of what I say is about protecting anybody's ego, and I hope it doesn't bother you either, Champ, because you always have interesting observations here and on the other site.

In the first couple of years of the first version loopers (talking class A and B here) I got to see several of them and their competitors here in Reg. 10. There were A and B Hubbell and Quincy Mercurys, some FA Konigs with the early skinny expansion chambers, two or three FB Konigs, a few single-carb Anzanis (all A's, IIRC), the faster A and B Anzanis of Hallum and Anderson, two 2-carb B Harrisons, and a couple of Hot Rods. Oh, and I can't forget Bill Myers deflector B Konig, which he ran for a year while John ran the loopers (I have this motor now, and am trying to get J Dub to offer me some absurdly large sum for it for sentimental reasons, but so far he has just yawned).

Now, to compare apples to apples you have to specify that any of the engine types under comparison have to be properly clearanced and assembled, in good tune and running cleanly, and on comparable boats, with similarly good props (and we probably ought to add a condition of warm weather for decent vaporization of the fuel). This was not so easy to do, especially in those days of marginal ignitions. The best ignitions seemed to me to be the heavy Phelon flywheel magneto from the B Stock Mercs, and the somewhat rare, similarly heavy energy-transfer magneto on a few 2 cylinder Konigs. The other mags (Bosch, Sem, and especially Lucas) were less happy for various reasons (not always electrical), and the battery-and-points ignitions were also inadequate. The only big race I ever went out-of-region for was the '68 NOA Nationals at Forest Lake, MN. If Gene remembers that one, it might not be with great pleasure. It was, I'd say, the biggest year for loopers, and there must have been (wild guess) eighty 2-cylinder loopers at that race. And a good seventy of them, with the battery and points, had an ignition miss, just pop-pop-pop every day, all day, about drove me nuts. Of course, very quickly thereafter, the new "transistorized" aftermarket ignitions for cars were widely applied to our outboards to good effect.

So you have to compare a good-running this to a good-running that. With that caveat, Champ, cross-flow Mercs would be doing well to finish within 3/4 of a lap of the early-version loopers (BTW, I never heard the term "flathead" applied to that motor until much later; looper was the Reg. 10 term for them). Same thing with Hot Rods. Stu Lowe, an airline pilot and older brother of Jeff Lowe who was nationally one of the very fastest BSH drivers of the day, had a B Hot Rod built by John Alden in California, meaning it was as good an alky-conversion as you'd find anywhere. Stu Lowe's Hot Rod always ran well, but he wasn't going to beat a B loop or even an A loop that was running right. Most of the non-Hallum Anzanis wouldn't run well long enough to be any threat (a Lucas mag that if it worked at all would tend to shear off the teeth of its drive gear, bad big-end bearings, wimpy gears).

NONE of those engines, as fondly as the old guys remember them, could remotely hope to stay on the same lap with a modern Italian engine, even with modern props and featherlight boats. The ports were all tiny and not well-aimed. They sure were cool in their day, though. The sport owes a huge debt to the Quincy Welding team for turning out a design that let the little guy build a fast motor very inexpensively using a lot of Mercury components he already had, ending up with a simple user-friendly, mechanic-friendly racemotor with a one-piece crankshaft that would run with or beat the more complicated engines from overseas. If you saw your good old deflector equipment made obsolete at a stroke, and had to buy the latest new thing just to keep up, it sure helped that the new thing was relatively cheap, and as easy to work on as racing equipment ever gets.

Thanks, Quincy!!!

Hi Smitty! About horsepower on one particular engine I remember, I had to do a clean up job on an early 15cid racing Konig for an old friend. It was the alternate firing type with megaphones. I was told by the owner that this engine came in third (if all this is correct as it was a while back)at the 1962 world championships I believe around the great lakes area (Michigan?). Anyway, it was rated at 36hp @10,000rpm and ran 78mph. At least that's what the plaque on its display stand said. I always wanted that engine! I suppose that's about what the best "A" racers would do across the board early on. But 78mph back then seems kinda fast to me though as I think about it. I would like to know if "B" loopers were ran later on in B-restricted?

[Master Oil Racing Team]

At the 1971 NOA World Champioships at Alexandria, Louisiana the A's were running the fastest we had ever seen. There were no official times, but everyone was going off their Kellers. But there were several that were very fast and were said to be hitting 80 on the Alex course. The fastest and one to beat was Bobby Olsen running a Quincy flathead. Jerry Waldman was right up there, but Bobby seemed to be the hottest. There were a few others that claimed 80 as well, Bobby Wilson, and maybe Kay Harrison and Ralph Donald.

Our Keller showed 78. We figured we would be out of the running, but we did a lot of testing with Hopkins props. Our Konig was the newer model with exhaust ports on the starboard side feeding into a single sliding expansion chamber. We ended up winning with a new record in one heat the beat the previous years record by four seconds. Bobby Olsen finished second as I recall, and we were very surprised to have had such a strong finish. Watching the other three elimination heats, the other boats seemed so fast, but I think 79 to 80 mph range was probably about right in 1971. From 1968 to 1971 the motor designs picked up horsepower, and the boats got longer and wood decks on the hydros made them more stable and reliable.

[smittythewelder]

Anyway, it was rated at 36hp @10,000rpm and ran 78mph. At least that's what the plaque on its display stand said. I always wanted that engine! I suppose that's about what the best "A" racers would do across the board early on. But 78mph back then seems kinda fast to me though as I think about it.

Kinda fast is right, Champ; all of that sounds bogus to me. For a pre-expansion-chamber open-pipe A Konig with its little 1" Bings and exhaust-open at about 95degrees ATDC, I'd guess maybe 29hp at 9000, and about 62mph on a B Stock Sid-Craft with the best props of 1962 (talking racecourse, not kilo). The mid-'60s skinny-expansion-chamber FA with 28mm butterfly Bings made about 35-36hp at 9500 with exhaust-open at 92degrees ATDC, and might go 70mph on a 10' 2" Marchetti. This was at the time the first-generation Quincys came out, and good examples of each motor were roughly comparable on a racecourse. Konigs didn't regularly go anything like 78mph on a course until we got the single-pipe motors with 34mm carbs and modern pipes in maybe '70-'71. There was an aluminum-block A Konig just before the single-pipe version, but it was a can of worms, there weren't many, and results were too variable for me to say anything. . No doubt others will protest that their stuff was faster in these periods, but this is what I saw, and our guys were winning some Nationals with these speeds against the boys from California and back east, so I'll stand by it.

Steve, maybe you and I are defining "divided exhaust" differently. Yes, I tried to describe, as "second-generation," the late-'60s loopers that had the exhaust ports on either side completely divided right to the outer edge of the port, where it matched up with a several-inch-long divider inside the wide-swept exhaust elbow. But I'm saying, and I have a '67 B loop and a similar-age C loop to prove it, that the early production engines DID divide the exhaust streams from upper and lower cylinders so that the ports did NOT point at each other (as Champ pointed out in that photo of the prototype) even though the divider did not continue on into the early elbows. As compared to the later version which you are describing, yes, the dividers in the early motors were pretty short, but they were there. Take another look at Juby's wonderful photo on page 2; that's what Champ was talking about as having UNdivided exhaust ports that would blow into each other (or would if there was any open overlap).

[champ20B]

Kinda fast is right, Champ; all of that sounds bogus to me. For a pre-expansion-chamber open-pipe A Konig with its little 1" Bings and exhaust-open at about 95degrees ATDC, I'd guess maybe 29hp at 9000, and about 62mph on a B Stock Sid-Craft with the best props of 1962 (talking racecourse, not kilo). The mid-'60s skinny-expansion-chamber FA with 28mm butterfly Bings made about 35-36hp at 9500 with exhaust-open at 92degrees ATDC, and might go 70mph on a 10' 2" Marchetti. This was at the time the first generation Quincys came out, and good examples of each motor were roughly comparable on a racecourse. Konigs didn't regularly go anything like 78mph on a course until we got the single-pipe motors with 35mm carbs and modern pipes in maybe '70-'71. There was an aluminum-block A Konig just before the single-pipe version, but it was a can of worms, there weren't many, and results were too variable for me to say anything. . No doubt others will protest that their stuff was faster in these periods, but this is what I saw, and our guys were winning some Nationals with these speeds against the boys from California and back east, so I'll stand by it.

Steve, maybe you and I are defining "divided exhaust" differently. Yes, I tried to describe, as "second-generation," the late-'60s loopers that had the exhaust ports on either side completely divided right to the outer edge of the port, where it matched up with a several-inch-long divider inside the wide-swept exhaust elbow. But I'm saying, and I have a '67 B loop and a similar-age C loop to prove it, that the early production engines DID divide the exhaust streams from upper and lower cylinders so that the ports did NOT point at each other (as Champ pointed out in that photo of the prototype) even though the divider did not continue on into the early elbows. As compared to the later version which you are describing, yes, the dividers in the early motors were pretty short, but they were there. Take another look at Juby's wonderful photo on page 2; that's what Champ was talking about as having UNdivided exhaust ports that would blow into each other (or would if there was any open overlap).

That's what I was thinking....I was always puzzled as to how that early of an "A" alky racer could do that kind of speed. It wouldn't be to far away from recent speeds if it did!
As for early alky Hotrods, I think they were running the old Carter-N that was re-jetted for alcohol / castor. Lyle Swanson found out long after the days of stock outboard based alky racing that those blue devils thrived off excess carburation. I recently built a tilly HR16B carb and it is enormous compared to the Carter. If only they had those big bore 34mm Tilly's on the Hotrods in the late 1950s-early 60s, jetted for alky, those champions would have either carried on into the mid part of that decade in alky classes or blown apart under ferocious power trying.
One thing though about the early Quincy deflector engines are those "mumps" that went between the carb and case. They were fitted with extra reeds for better breathing as a stock mercury had a sudden drop off in power past a certain point from restriction, and the reeds flow being hampered by the crankshaft weights. I heard that racers would try to remedy this in the early days of alky/mod by using really thin reeds that would often chip and break. The deflector engines were ultimately destined to see their end though as loopers love expansion chambers and deflectors don't benefit with nothing beyond open megaphones.
But was it the success of early rotary valve racers that inspired the creation of the Quincy mumps on their deflector engines perhaps to equal breathing to the rotary valve? It looked like a good idea!

[smittythewelder]

Now that's new to me, I never saw "mumps." Anybody have a photo?

All the old guys are going to jump in and tell you that when they used Carters for alky racing, they were bored way out and set up to be floatless.

[Steve Litzell]

Smitty is right about the carters and the Mumps thing was short lived as it did not do much, but they looked cool. The idea was that the fuel air leaving the carb and going through the normal Merc cage, had a lot of bending and such to do to enter the crank case. The Mumps were to help this by directing fuel into the crank case. problem is that the fuel air mix is going about 600 MPH and it don't bend well either in the normal cage or the turn required in the Mumps section. Then the charge banged up against the crank counter weights as stated. As far as a FA going 78 MPH in early form is a dream. Maybe 64 65 maybe. Back when the late FA came out in about 71, I went testing with the late Ted Thompson at Lake Mattie to run the " New A". As Wayne said all we had then was a good Keller. This New A would not clear out and would miss and fart as it tried to reach full RPM. The Keller read 76. This was 3 MPH faster out of the box than My FA Quincy flathead. After Walt put some new coils on the Konig and tuned it up, that thing busted 79 MPH and sometimes 80. It made the boats at the time short short. At this time also as I said the Konigs did not run long before they would loose a retainer and guy's like myself could win on durability. This problem to with retainers was solved by installing a Suzuiki retainer that had taller rollers and Konig made a taller bearing race pin later for this. The boats we ran were in the 10'9" range, but soon became 11' to 11'2". Like I have said this was a great time to be racing. The Konig soon took over the A class with a few die hards as myself would keep trying with the Quincy. This Konig would not be challenged again until about 75 or 76 when OF came out with the Z engine and also a little latter the Yamato A. Steve

[BJuby]

58935

58936

[rumleyfips]

I had an A looper for about a month in the late 70's. This story is not about success but about farce.

One day , out on the scrounge, I found an old A looper at a marina near Kingston Ontario ( close to Porter's museum ). No coils, no carb, seized; but it had a good A stock lower unit and steering bar. This was the time when Quincy's were no longer competitive and not yet valuable collector items. It was scrap to the marina and I bought it for $100.

I put it in my trailer box for storage and at the next race a friend saw it and said he wanted to run an alky race in Waddington NY ( his home) : would I put it together for him. Sure I said. I'm running a stock race somewhere else that weekend but I'll get it ready.

The crank was rusty so I went through my junkpile and found a Mark25 crank and reedcage. I put in new bearings and seals and opened up the cage but the rest of the inside was useable. I scrounged coils and stuff from old cars . The only carb I has was a KA7A so on it went. The thing started ( on gasoline ) first pull and scared the neigbours.

I got the engine to Waddington , complete with an 6x 9 1/4 ASH prop . Andy said he couldn't use the megaphones in town but had borrowed a set of chambers.

When I saw him a couple of weeks later I asked how it went. He said that he borrowed some fuel, it started right up, jumped on plane, felt real good, went eee and seized. " I should have asked for mixed fuel" he said.

Another friend asked me what I was going to do with the powerhead. Nothing. Well can I have it . Sure. That was the end of my looper career. Not well thought out but it featured Larry, Moe and Curley.

[Master Oil Racing Team]

That's funny. Too bad a lot of them went to the junk yard.

Hey Steve, you jogged my memory. Ted Thompson with a Konig and Bobby Olsen with a flathead were the two to beat in 1971.

[smittythewelder]

Thanks for the photo, Juby. ("ASK-uh, and yew shall RECIEVE-uh!!").

[BJuby]

Thanks for the photo, Juby. ("ASK-uh, and yew shall RECIEVE-uh!!").

No problem. Definitely a cool setup, until I saw them at Mark Sutter's AOMCI meet in person, I did not exactly see how they worked. Now I understand.

[smittythewelder]

Hey, we got photos of the motor!

Steve L. (and Champ), look at J Dub's new thread. The elbows that are mounted on the motor are the first-generation narrow-swept elbows, with no splitter inside. The exhaust ports in this motor will each have a sort of triangular divider that tapered to a sharp edge that ended about 3/8 to 1/2" short of the outside edge of the port. And Steve, I am pretty sure that you know this perfectly well, and that you and I have somehow been talking past each other . . . which does happen, alas, LOL.

[smittythewelder]

Too bad a lot of them went to the junk yard.

Wayne, any of us who have "reached a certain age," when medical disasters can strike without warning, probably should get a felt-pen and write some instructions on a big yellow sheet of paper, telling any of our survivors whom they should phone in case of our unexpected early demise, and duct-tape the note in a prominent place on the biggest of our dusty boxes of old racing gear. This stuff should never just get thrown out. Anybody who keeps old racing stuff in something like a commercial mini-storage unit should particularly do this.

[rumleyfips]

The discussion of competitive levels of different engines in the mid 60's triggered a memory. Towards the latter part of the 70's, Bill Villhauer from Ogdensburg NY bought a B alky deflector rig somewhere in Northern Quebec. Deflector engines were a legal stepdown and he wanted it to run A alky . I never saw the outfit, but it was the talk of the pits at some stock races. Apparently Bill could run near the front against some pretty stiff competition. There were 2 cylinder Koening's , 4 cylinder Koeinings, Quincys, and at least one Anzani around.There were some good names racing in Quebec at the time: Simon, Hebert, LaRose and others I forget. I heard that Bill ran pretty well in B alky at times with an engine superceded a decade earlier.

I wish now that I had seen it.

[Master Oil Racing Team]

Richard Mercier and Doug Thompson are two more good ones from north of the Border.

[Steve Litzell]

yes Wayne, I was working for Teddie and Bunkie at the Bowson Boat works then, so I was a tag along for testing and was able to bring my stuff as well. Ted was real good at set ups and taught me a lot about this stuff. I then went on to Walt's for more training and then years later, off to Konig for more training. Those were great times for sure.

[Master Oil Racing Team]

I was trying to figure out which thread to post this to, and I decided this one is more about when and where, and J-Dub's FA-1 needs to be more about the restoration. So this is what I found today. This was from the May 1965 edition of PROPELLER Vol. 19 NO.5. It was the back and forth between Smitty, J-Dub and others that I started looking at those dates. Doesn't mean anything regarding when the loopers got there, but just some interesting facts and something J-Dub might be able to cue in on.

[J-Dub]

Cool Post Wayne!
I don't believe my Dad was ever too successful in AU... The winner of DOH (DOH!) was Bill Wurster, I drove Unlimited for him in 2004 as the Llumar and I have that D Looper in my basement... I will have to ask Sutter why he ran 2nd in BU. Because I am sure there was a reason and it wasn't his fault! LOL!

J-Dub

[smittythewelder]

Ah, Idylwood!! (see clipping, previous page) A fun, handy (nearby) place to race that we lost as a race site long ago, in fact, only two or three years after that article was written. I was looking at the names, all of which I remember, many belonging to fellows I got to know to one degree or another.

Then I looked at the date of the clipping again, and realized that this was my first boat race!!

An old fellow (like maybe the age I am now?), Pop Tolford, father of racer Hal Tolford, had been in charge of the Seattle Outboard Association's "Novice School" that winter of '64/'65. This consisted of three meetings that featured various people explaining the basics of the sport. There was a pretty good crowd at each; I don't think there were more than half a dozen novices that actually went on to do any racing, but of course most of their dads were there. At the bottom of Wayne's clipping is the name of the "reporter," Bev Downing, mother of Jim and Mike of stock runabout fame, and a regular helper-outer at the races and a very nice lady. One of the few things I recall from the Novice School meetings was when Mike Jones, who had been racing ASH for several years, stood up to say something and prefaced it with, "One of the things you novices can learn from us older guys that have been at this for a while . . ." Mike, then in his mid-twenties I guess, never got any farther because Bill Downing, Bev's husband, began laughing and hooting at Mike for calling himself an "older guy." Mike Jones must be mid-seventies now, and I wonder if he recalls this and if he and Bill ever had a laugh about it.

So, Spring, '65 at Idylwood, and the first event of the day is . . . a Novice Race. Not really a race, because it was a mixture of JU's (no JSH in those days), AU's, ASH's, and my BSH. Half a dozen newbies including me and my neighborhood pal Dave Cordell with his old, heavy Welland ASH (the next year he bought a good Karelsen from Hobart, a prop from Pappa, and gained at least 6mph). Mostly this was intended as a chance for the new guys to run a couple of laps at speed and see what it all looks like from the boat: the clock, the bouys, the other boats, and the flags. Damned good thing, too, because in any group there is likely to be some dumb fool who gets confused. I don't need to tell you who, in this case . . . .

The Novice Race over and confusion dispelled, a few heats run off, then over the P.A., "B Stock Hydro; put 'em in the water!" Oh boy, here it comes! You guys from other places or other times have to understand that Seattle-area boys of that era like me and Cordell had grown up utterly mesmerized by the Unlimiteds, the Gold Cup race, and spent endless hours earnestly discussing the merits of the Slo Mo's, the Thriftway, the Kai, and our local entry, Miss Burien, driven by the Smith family's milkman, Bill Brow. In high school we became aware of outboard racing, of Hal Kelly's Plans, of "Wetbacks" and "Jupiters" and "Foo-Lings", and "Buzzards" and such. Having somehow accumulated the cash with our first decent-paying high school jobs (I was a "baggage-smasher" at the airport) we plunked down the $8 (Wetback) or $12 (Jupiter) for the enormous thrill of getting a brand-new set of boat-plans from the mailbox. With Hal Kelly's bill-of-materials in hand, we each went off to find plywood, spruce or yellow or white cedar (which splits easily, as I learned), Anchorfast nails, Weldwood glue, Flecto Varathane, and Keller hardware (unless we or our dads had managed to find second-hand hardware). All of this was long months before the Novice School, and I later realized it would have been useful to know about lightweight plywoods rather than the lovely but heavy stuff I found at Architectural Woods in Tacoma. Might also have been nice to know how to thin Flecto Varathane (or use something else) so that it would spray properly.

But it all came together anyway, for me, at Idylwood. My Jupiter was (to my eye) absolutely beautiful, the finish flawless, the joinery all perfect, made with love. My dad, thinking to be helpful by putting a very smooth, hard (and presumably fast) finish on the bottom of my boat, laid down a layer of fiberglass on it from stern to bow. It was something he was good at; too bad it took my brand new, already-overweight 9' 10" hydro up to 130 pounds (with hardware), most of it in the nose, LOL. But neither he nor I knew any better (I found out very soon, I'll tell you!!). I had bought a good-running 20H for $300 from BU driver Henry Osterman, a new prop straight from Michigan Wheel (was a steel prop from them $24?). Also a new ($36?) orange GenTex jacket (the last year before they started making them of nylon), and a new, white, open-face Bell helmet procured at some discounted price by Bill Brow, who had somebody on the Miss Burien crew shoot a coat of Day-Glo orange on it (after masking off the novice criss-cross).

"Five-minute gun . . 'BANG'." Set the throttle about halfway, turn your skinny, nineteen-year-old bod entirely around in the 16" cockpit to face the transom, and put your left foot against the gas tank, Set the choke on the Tillotson, put the spray-shield down, and pull the rope out gently to set the rewind pawls; then pull hard and fast.
A wonderful sound! The sound of a converted 20H, the sound I had first heard a year before at a (non-record) race at Yelm on a cold rainy day, the emphatic, open-pipe sound of a real racing engine, the sound that made me want to race outboards, this class of outboards, instead of the 48 Inboards that had previously interested me(Inboards ALL have open pipes).

My boat starts to climb up its bow-wave as I re-orient my self in the cockpit (I never could understand those guys who would reach way back behind them to start the engine while they were facing forward). Release the throttle lock and get the boat on-plane fast, then back off the gas and see where the traffic is and what's what. Here we go, first race, first heat, mouth dry, excited, worried, hoping I can actually do this.

Well, my beautiful boat, built with such love, was the B Stock slug of all time. At that time, at a local short-course race, a quick 57-58mph could win; the best I ever saw with that boat was 53. Not only slow, and with mediocre acceleration, but sponson-heavy, lousy handling, lousy turning. If I had the boat now, I know a bunch of ways I could have fixed its problems, and make it a whole lot better and at least semi-competitive, but at the time I had no clue. In the first heat at Idylwood, I went roaring into the first turn, about 9th place (we always had full 12-boat heats in those years), hooked on a roller, and was thrown out of the cockpit. I found myself ignominiously hanging on to the wheel with one hand with my feet in the cockpit and my butt sitting on the deck as the boat coasted to a stop while I tried to drag myself back in. In the second turn of the second heat I was thrown entirely out of the boat. An exciting first race for a soft, pink newbie, but not auspicious. The rest of that season was spent learning how little you can see mid-pack in the first turn, and spending each heat trying to finish no worse than 10th. I wonder why it now seems like it was so much fun!!

Thank you for the clipping, Wayne.

[champ20B]

Smitty, of all the literature "short stories" I read in college, none compare to this! You have a gift for writing! I could actually imagine it as if I were in that race... Thanks for sharing!!

[Master Oil Racing Team]

I agree champ. Smitty and I have been corresponding for awhile regarding some of the great Region 10 and 11 and 12 racers that he grew up with. We both know many of them, and have had e mail talks about them. I have known from the very beginning when Smitty first started to post things before we got acquainted that he had a gift. I was just surprised that the column from Propeller turned out to be about the beginning of his racing career and sparked his ability to finally come forward.

Smitty has written an excellent piece on his boat racing start. To me it sounds like the beginning of many kids starting at the golden age of boat racing. My brother Mark and myself built a boat after watching Ron Musson run underneath a bridge spanning a river and the roostertail wet the cables holding up the suspension bridge. Smitty's excellent narrative took me back to those days.

[Master Oil Racing Team]

I went through the few Propellers I have from the 1960,s and 1970 and found these clippings.

First two are from May 1969. They posted backwards. I'll do another page to try not to get these all out of order.

[rumleyfips]

Wasting time and I think I found a picture of these pipes. Ron Hill 1966. Google: Boat Racing Facts "Photos" A runabout looper. The thread is Nov 28,2004 in Outboard History forum.

[Master Oil Racing Team]

I know a lot of these guys from my racing days, and a few others I have gotten to know a little through BRF.

This one is from September 1969.

Got to leave now. Finish up later.

[racnbns]

A real ALKY RACER--

Look at the results of COH in the post above. The winner was Hans Moen.

We were at the nationals in Dupue and pitted near Hans. I saw him roll his boat into the water as it was his heat up next. The only other person near him was a lady,his wife I guess. I figured he could use some help so I went and offered a hand. He said no we're alright,she can hold the boat. I was surprised so I backed off a ways and turned around and watched. The cannon fired she was just steadying the boat,no lifting,Hans wrapped the rope,gave it a pull and off he went. And I thought I was a Racer. I need 2 lifters and a starting stand to do the same thing! MY HERO,HANS!

Bruce

[J-Dub]

Hans was a great member to Seattle Outboard Association for many years. As a young racer (And before!) I always admired him. He had a small engine repair shop that was also a Mercury dealer in the small Eastern Washington town of Bridgeport. Bridgeport is about 20 minutes past the edge of nowhere... We raced there on the Columbia River for several years through the 70's and early 80's, this was also my first ever J Hydro race in 1982.
Hans celebrated his 100th Birthday about a year ago!

J-Dub

[Ron Hill]

Wasting time and I think I found a picture of these pipes. Ron Hill 1966. Google: Boat Racing Facts "Photos" A runabout looper. The thread is Nov 28,2004 in Outboard History forum.

http://www.boatracingfacts.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=19049&stc=1&d=1192141363

[smittythewelder]

Hans Moen was one of the early adopters of the new Quincy loopers, a bit unusual in opting for a C rather than the D's that were more popular in Reg. 10. And don't forget his son Dick, who was a stalwart in B Hydro with a good-running looper/Karelsen for several years during the late-'60s, early-'70s.

[Master Oil Racing Team]

Dick is in one of the Region 10 columns coming up. This one is June 1970.

[Master Oil Racing Team]

July 1970

[Master Oil Racing Team]

August 1970

[J-Dub]

Cool Stuff Wayne! Here is a picture of my Dad in that era.
58953

J-Dub

[Master Oil Racing Team]

Try again J-Dub. I have had a lot of trouble with the attachment notice too, but I think I got it now. I would like to see the picture.

This is the last one from 1970. September.

It was my first full year of racing as an APBA member so I don't have anything before that except the couple of Propellers that Johnny Dortch gave me. I'm happy to see that some of the Region 10 guys are enjoying the posts. What few times we raced out there we had a great time, and everyone was glad to see us and those were days I will never forget.

[J-Dub]

Wayne I will give you about a year or so to stop posting that kind of stuff! Thanks Man, way cool stuff!
lets try this....
58960

J-Dub

[Gene East]

I enjoy reading about the Quinault Canoe racers. If any of the Quinault people remember Jim Jackson, Please contact me.

We built a lot of motors for the Quinaults and Jim was Tribal Chairman at the time. Jim made several trips to Quincy and we developed a strong friendship.

Jim invited me out to Washington to race one of his canoes. I graciously declined saying I would probably flip the "damn thing".

Jim responded, "Probably so, you white boys aren't very coordinated"!

[racnbns]

[QUOTE=J-Dub;144046]Wayne I will give you about a year or so to stop posting that kind of stuff! Thanks Man, way cool stuff!
lets try this....
58960

J-Dub:

Is that your Dad's knee showing above the side of the cockpit? Doesn't seem possible.

Bruce

[J-Dub]

Bruce, I remember asking him about that too. I think he told me he had been adjusting the carb.

J-Dub

[racnbns]

Bruce, I remember asking him about that too. I think he told me he had been adjusting the carb.

J-Dub
Maybe he was adjusting the carb with his toes. It doesn't look like his hand would reach that far! Neat picture tho.

Bruce

[Master Oil Racing Team]

Hey Bruce....I started to post something last night and was about finished, but shut it down because I was just going by memory and not facts. So I will throw this out there to see what others might remember. Fact one is that old throttles like Keller, Quincy, Konig and others had ways to set the throttle in certain positions. Keller and Quincy had the "push button" used to set the position with the thumb on the throttle hand. The Konig throttle that I knew had a peg on the side plate that you could pull up to set the throttle at a certain position. From what I remember from the early days when I started in 1966, a lot of guys would set the throttle after getting on a plane, looking over their left shoulder to get into traffic (or just make sure the course was clear when testing), rolling up their crank rope, stashing it in a pocket or wherever they tucked it, then grasping the throttle and getting up to speed.

By the time I started racing most everyone was running Quincy Loopers with some Merc/Quincy deflectors, Konigs, and a few Harrison and Crescents. The only people I ever saw adjusting their carbs while underway were the C Service guys and they did it all the time. They locked their throttle, reached back with the throttle hand to make adjustments. I'm sure in the days before I started that was common with other classes, but the motors I was used to had no way to adjust carbs under way. That probably stopped when things advanced and boats were going to fast to do that.

That pic though may have been when J-Dubs Dad was moving back around to grab the throttle again, after the tuning.

[Ron Hill]

Wayne I will give you about a year or so to stop posting that kind of stuff! Thanks Man, way cool stuff!
lets try this....
58960

J-Dub

I'm pretty sure this picture was in some magazine once. I looked at it and I looked at it, as I always drove my Stock Hydros with crossed legs, but my Alkies went too fast and I kneeled, almost laying down...

I decided this was a pad trying to blow out of the boat...not a knee.

Great picture, J-Dub. Your OLD MAN was a great guy!

[smittythewelder]

When running their Anzanis in the days of Lucas magnetos, Walin, Sutter, and Anderson used to have the big Vacturi carb on the side of the engines set somewhat lean so they could get on-plane without fouling plugs. Once they got going, they would reach back and give the main needle a twist to richen 'er up. This being a marginal operation, one of them fabricated a cable-operated mixture-adjuster that worked more precisely and eliminated locking the throttle and turning around in the boat. There's a photo of the "100mph Anzani" on Charlie Williams' site that shows this feature.

[racnbns]

Locked Throttles--
A rule was passed to stop drivers from locking the throttle. We always did that when we roped our own. As wayne stated we'ed rope the engine, stuff the rope squeeze the throttle a couple of times and give the signal to go. As time passed and boats acquired cowls we had somebody start our engines and we held the throttle in the desired position. Most throttles had the lock cut off[button type] or disabled some how after the rule passed.

Did the Konig ever have adjustable jets on the carb. I started in 1968 and don't recall ever seeing them on a Konig.

Ron--It doesn't look like a pad to me BUT my eyes are over 80 years old SOOOOOOO!

Bruce

[champ20B]

I have a locking throttle on my "B" superstock-mod runabout. It is a Wilcox Crittenden I restored for current use and has the button on the throttle. It is o.k for starting the engine but just isn't allowed while underway.

[smittythewelder]

Bruce, the old 2-cylinder FB and FC Konigs came with Konig carbs, 32-34mm, that had adjustable high-speed needles (bottom-up, rather than top-down as the Vacturis had), and no idle/low-speed circuit. These carbs were one-piece with an integral float-bowl, but looking at the later 34mm A Konig carb with its separate float-bowl, it looks like the later carb was created by modifying the patterns for the earlier one.

The deflector B and C Konigs came with either slide-valve 25mm Bings or Konig carbs (28mm?) rather like the later ones but with their own peculiarities; I don't remember whether they had adjustable needles.

How does this always happen? We started out talking about looper pipes on a Quincy sub-forum, then the conversation starts spreading out like kudzu or milfoil, LOL. Sorry, Paul C., Gene, J Dub, . . . .

[racnbns]

Smitty--
Thanks for the Konig carb info.

Your rite about this thread covering a lot of subjects. really interesting stuff tho. Keep it coming!

Bruce

[mercguy]

When running their Anzanis in the days of Lucas magnetos, Walin, Sutter, and Anderson used to have the big Vacturi carb on the side of the engines set somewhat lean so they could get on-plane without fouling plugs. Once they got going, they would reach back and give the main needle a twist to richen 'er up. This being a marginal operation, one of them fabricated a cable-operated mixture-adjuster that worked more precisely and eliminated locking the throttle and turning around in the boat. There's a photo of the "100mph Anzani" on Charlie Williams' site that shows this feature.

one day I will post a picture of the Anzani, as it still sits in our showroom...

[smittythewelder]

( deleting post)

[smittythewelder]

I enjoy reading about the Quinault Canoe racers. If any of the Quinault people remember Jim Jackson, Please contact me.

We built a lot of motors for the Quinaults and Jim was Tribal Chairman at the time. Jim made several trips to Quincy and we developed a strong friendship.


Gene, if you want to know about the canoe racing, which is alive and well, contact Ric Montoya on the HR site. Ric races the canoes himself, and confirms that they are pretty squirrelly. He has a couple of really fun videos on HR entitled (roughly), "Original North American Runabout:" go to the General Hydroplane & Runabout Discussion, Page 6. An old pal and fellow BSH/AOH/BOH driver from the Sixties and Seventies, Gene Laes, used to help tune the engines for the canoes in those days when the engines were alky-burning 20H's. Gene is still racing, mostly C Service I believe. I don't think he's on-line, though.

[smittythewelder]

Good that you guys have the certificate (and J Dub has the prop and the boat), but I was talking about the engine. Maybe two weeks ago, David Tenney, son of Bill Tenney who started the whole Anzani thing, contacted me after reading something I had posted on Anzanis. He wanted to know if the 100 mph engine was possibly available for purchase. I called Hallum, about getting the two of them in touch, and Jim told me the original engine was NLA, and why.

I tried to PM you but your box was full.

[Ron Hill]

When running their Anzanis in the days of Lucas magnetos, Walin, Sutter, and Anderson used to have the big Vacturi carb on the side of the engines set somewhat lean so they could get on-plane without fouling plugs. Once they got going, they would reach back and give the main needle a twist to richen 'er up. This being a marginal operation, one of them fabricated a cable-operated mixture-adjuster that worked more precisely and eliminated locking the throttle and turning around in the boat. There's a photo of the "100mph Anzani" on Charlie Williams' site that shows this feature.

Modesto Reservoir, Waterford, California ( AKA "Modesto") About 1962, I upped my D RUnabout record. But I seem to remember Gerry Walin running hs "B" Anzani at almost 100 MPH. Several things stood out in my mind: 1. No skeg on the gearcase 2. Propshaft even or above the bottom 3. Big ASSED Cary two blade cleaver 4. Strange needle valve.

As I recall, Gerry would leave the pits going about 20 MPH and head for the kilo, every inch gaining speed. When he hit the kilo it looked like he was going 50 MPH. But when he exited the kilo, it looked like he was doing over 100 MPH. Seems the record was 97 MPH.

I never saw Gerry again until 1971 when he and Alan Stinson beat me by one foot to win the Parker 9 Hour.

In 1967, I was driving Harry Bartolomei's equipment. We broke three World Records that weekend. But the funniest thing was that Jose Cisneros built hs own boat and had a Anzani but I think Hallum. Jose rode with me when we broke the FRR record. But on his on boat he had a needle valve four feet long.

Jose managed to build this boat without glue, so it leaked like hell. The fact that had ridden with me, I felt I should help him run the kilo. Jose took off at about 20 MPH and ran down the kilo...everyone was laughing at him as he went about 45 mph and the record was held by Gerry Walin at about 90.... On the return run, Jose went like 92 MPH...he was still richening up the needle valve when he passed the pits.

We put Jose's boat on his saw horses. In shock, I told him I thought he could break Gerry's record. Somehow, as Jose fueld up for the next run, he swallowed nitro fuel and was choking. The ambulance took him to the hospital. The hospital thought he'd tried to kill himself and would not let him out of the hospital. Harry and I had to go to the hospital, the next day, and "BAIL" Jose out. The next day the wind blew and we didn't get to run.

That July, 1967, Jose drove to Valleyfield to pit for me. After we won the 500 CC John Ward Trophy race, Harry said he was buying dinner. Jose ordered a Fillet Mignon, with a side order of Fillet Mignon. Never heard of that before or after.

I only met Gerry Walin twice, but Leonard Keller had told us about him many times in his type written notes. If you ever bought anything from Keller, he always wrote you a letter, typewritten, on a piece of paper about 4 inches by 4 inches. Great reading, always.

[mercguy]

look familiar Smitty??? From Last night at the SOA Commodores Ball.......

[Ron Hill]

Lee Sutter in the dark blue sweater. The other guy looks familiar but help me. Is that Sutter's Competition Anzani???

[mercguy]

Lee Sutter in the dark blue sweater. The other guy looks familiar but help me. Is that Sutter's Competition Anzani???

the "other guy" is Ralph Hildebrand......and the Hallum/Walin record setting B Anzani......

[Ron Hill]

Ralph Hildebrand, I should have known him. Anyone ever write Ralph's or Lee's boat racing's life stories?

[J-Dub]

Sutter's racing stories are 100% accurate 50% of the time! LOL!

J-Dub