Old Neal racer

[Moses on water]

Anyone recognize this nice old original shape Neal I just barn found? Any idea how old it is? What size motor would be properly put on this hydro?is e10 the class it was raced in? I’m new to all this.does one put plugs in the back before use or leave open to drain?i couldn’t find a hull number any idea if they had them and where to look. Thanks for your looking it all over.

[oldalkydriver]

It looks like an old 'c' class. PR's or Hubble. It could be late 40's or early fifties. Too heavy for anything else.

[zul8tr]

The plugs stay in when on the water they are pulled when on land to drain accumulated water. Those planked bottom hydros did leak until the wood swelled some and were a constant maintenance to keep the bottom rear flat. What does it weigh, how long from front tip to rear bottom, from back of sponsons to rear bottom and width of flat rear bottom?

[Moses on water]

Thanks for helping to educate me in hydroplane.the total length of the boat is 8’8”.the length from the back of the sponsons to rear back is 50”. The width at the back is 33”.please pardon the blasphemous 2 holes in the top. Before I found it the barn it was stored in had rats that made a home with in and out hole in the sponson. They have been evicted permanently.i hope to do some repairs and put what you guys tell me is the proper motor on it, and bring it to some meets sometime before my wife kills me for buying it.i also was able to get me to issue me a title for it to legally use on the water between meets. They put unknown on the title for the year.but I got it and numbers!i believe it weighs about 80 lbs.

[zul8tr]

I forgot an important dimension the vertical distance from the rear bottom planning surface to the outside (rearward) top corner edge of the transom motor board. At 8'- 8" that is a small boat and with a 50" afterplane that is a short boat. At 80 lbs that seems to light for plank construction, would you weigh it and what is your weight (if you don't mind?). Then can get into engines.

When you get to working on the bottom run a 3 or 4 ft straight edge long ways from the rear bottom edge forward at several cross ways ward forward locations and cross ways at the rear planning area at several forward locations. Need to see how flat the rear planning area is for the last 3 to 4 ft.

The rear sponson rat nibbles and other small dents gouges etc can be filled with thickened epoxy ( I use cabosil as the thickner). The deck holes need a ducthman wood patch to preserve the original deck contour. These planked bottom racers were typically clear varnished on the bottom and sides since they required regular attention to keep the bottom flat and varnish was a quick sealer. I would not epoxy coat the bottom with the planks that move somewhat and the epoxy will crack at the seams that look like they are caulked.

[Ron Hill]

It looks like an old 'c' class. PR's or Hubble. It could be late 40's or early fifties. Too heavy for anything else.

I didn't see a motor? A PR or Hubbell are motors, and I knows Oldalkydriver knows that. There was only one Hubbell "C" that was built with 100% Hubbell parts. My dad built it for Ed Kurakowa of Selma. Ed also had a 6042 "Six Stud" of "HEX HEAD" Evinrude. Ed bought the "SIX STUD" from Fred Hauenstein Sr. in 1953. For some reason Ed wanted to give me the motor rather than sell it back to the Hauenstein's. I made Ed take $1,000 for the motor, then resold it to Fred Hauenstein, Jr. for the same price.

Ed still had the Hubbell "C" and was going to give that to his son. But I think someone stole it, as it was offered to me via e-mail and I asked if the emailer was Ed's son. Never hear another word.

I NEVER SAW AN OFF SET FIN ON A NEAL. In 1956, Lee Morehouse who built my "A" Runabout said he off set his fin on his "D" Runabout and picked up speed. We didn't try it on my "A" until after the 1956 Nationals, but we gained a full MPH. The fin disturbs the water in front of the propeller. We never ran a center fin again!

As far as the plank bottom, my brother was told, and we always did it, but between each plank, you were supposed to run a hacksaw blade. This allowed a little air under the boat, also supposedly made the boat go straighter down the straight away.

[Moses on water]

The rear transom height is 14”. The weight without the rats is 121.8lbs. Believe it or not the 4’ straightedge at all angles from the back is darn flat!the worst part of the whole measuring process is me at 290 lbs 6’2” tall!

[Moses on water]

It didn’t come with a motor Ron, I wish it did. The fin looks like it’s been in that position for a long time. I’ll recheck the bottom about grooves between the boards, but they looked pretty tight dry.

[Moses on water]

What is a ducthman patch?would a polyurethane varnish be the proper type of varnish?

[oldalkydriver]

It is called 'old age' Ron. I meant that it took a 'PR', Johnson-Evenrude, or Hubble 'C' to push it. When my dad got a 'De Silva', I tried to hang an 'SR' 'B' engine on his old Neal. Could never get it to plane. My first 'A' was Johnny Drakes old modified Fillinger. Then I got Elmo B's 'A' Fillinager, a 'B' that looked alot like a Neal, but was plywood. It is the one I thought Dad let you drive in Phoenix. Then I finally got Dad's old De Silva (Hap Sharps old cut off). That was the best riding boat I ever drove. It took me a few years, but I finally realized that I could handle a runabout easier then a hydro. But after Nam, my left leg wouldn't bend too good and I slowly just got out of racing.

[zul8tr]

What is a ducthman patch?would a polyurethane varnish be the proper type of varnish?

A dutchman patch is a means to repair a damaged area while preserving the original contour by first cutting out the damage to any shape desired and trial fitting a new piece to fit the cutout. With what looks like thin wood on the Neal deck (what is the deck wood?) after you cut the dutchman shape you will need to put pieces underside the cut out to support the new patch piece. I use epoxy glue to secure underside support pieces and the patch without fasteners for clear finish. Attached are some pics of a dutchman patch repair I did on the 4mm Ocume plywood deck of my hydro:

#1 cut out made of damaged area, shaped picked to minimize removal of good wood
#2 underside support pieces in place
#3 patch piece in place (no fasteners) and pressed with pads on wax paper using spring sticks from ceiling
#4 sanded flush and ready for clear coat

In this case the deck is bright finished with gloss varnish so same type wood used. In your case since you will probably match the red color grain type patch not critical but the fit is.

For varnish I have tried many high priced brands through the years like Pettit, Interlux,etc but I find Minwax Helmsman Spar Urethane Gloss Exterior works well for these race boats that are not sitting out all the time. Dries well for sand and coat each day, can be buffed out. Varnish finish and buffing tips available just ask. Minwax Helmsman Spar Urethane available at Walmart, $16/quart about 1/2 the cost of the others.

[zul8tr]

The rear transom height is 14”. The weight without the rats is 121.8lbs. Believe it or not the 4’ straightedge at all angles from the back is darn flat!the worst part of the whole measuring process is me at 290 lbs 6’2” tall!

Great on being flat. That is a heavy boat for the size and you at 290 respectfully might find it has a performance handicap. These race boats are sensitive to weight and its location. However still a great project to work on and get on the water for fun.

[Moses on water]

Thanks for your kind words. It’s gonna take a lot of starving to get me to race weight. So fun is what’s its all about for me, but I do have a slimmer partner in speed, my son, 6’2 200 lbs,that what to drive. We also have an old Bruce borquinn 1970s tunnel boat that we enjoy.it has an old 50 merc 3cylinder to fly with.65030

[rumleyfips]

A dutchman repair involves cutting out a rectangle around the damage and gluing a tight fitting patch in place. I only used this in solid woods where the patch is beveled on all four edges, glued then set in place with a mallet. The patch was then planed flush with the rest of the surface after the glue set.

Boat repair, when someone ran into me ( I never ran into them ) is similar but uses square edges. A backer piece larger than the hole is glued inside . A small wire is threaded through two small holes in the backer and twisted around a stick on the outside to pull the backer in place. Once everything sets the patch is glued to the backer. Remember to align the wood grain correctly: don't ask me how I know this.

I had trouble patching a 1978 Bezoat until I asked Craig why. He used West and I was trying to get wood glue to stick. It didn't. When I used epoxy evertything went well.

[zul8tr]

Thanks for your kind words. It’s gonna take a lot of starving to get me to race weight. So fun is what’s its all about for me, but I do have a slimmer partner in speed, my son, 6’2 200 lbs,that what to drive. We also have an old Bruce borquinn 1970s tunnel boat that we enjoy.it has an old 50 merc 3cylinder to fly with.65030

Your welcome

About at 6am this day I posted about a Dutchman patch with pics how I did it on the thin 4mm plywood deck of my hydro. Also described the varnish I use which is Minwax Helmsman Spar Urethane gloss . When I tried to post it the message was the administrator has to review it? Sent a PM to Ron Hill to free it.

Nice tunnel boat what engine do you run on it?

Pete

[zul8tr]

What is the preferred varnish to use on the bottom of the hydro?ive used minwax polyurethane on raw oak floors. Is there something better? I can fill all small stuff with thickened epoxy as suggested, but what do you mean by a ducthman patch for the topside?heres a nice picture of our chase Boat a 1965 searay, with sharp helper! Notice the glass water that’s what it’s all about!65031


Skip the polyurethane used on floors, it is labeled for interior use on the can and will not be good for that race boat.

[Moses on water]

Thanks I look forward to patching

[zul8tr]

Your welcome

About at 6am this day I posted about a Dutchman patch with pics how I did it on the thin 4mm plywood deck of my hydro. Also described the varnish I use which is Minwax Helmsman Spar Urethane gloss . When I tried to post it the message was the administrator has to review it? Sent a PM to Ron Hill to free it.

Nice tunnel boat what engine do you run on it?

Ron has yet to free up my earlier post so I tried again

Pete

Here is a Dutchman patch I did on the 4mm Okume deck of my hydro.

#1 is cut out the bad area, shape of cut to suit
#2 provide support for the Dutchman patch, I preferred just strips epoxy glued.
#3 cut out Dutchman patch to fit. I made a paper pattern and transferred it to the same plywood and cut patch a bit larger and trimmed to fit. Glued and used wax paper to allow removal of wood pieces for ceiling spring clamps to apply pressure, no fasteners wanted.
#4 sanded level ready for clear coat, I use Minwax Helmsman Spar Urethane (Walmart), through the years tried the expensive ones like Pettit, Interlux, etc the Minwax works well for these boats that are stored in garage when not in use. It can be buffed to removed dust buggers when air dried very well.

[Moses on water]

tried 20 johnson too slow with the big boy on board now 50 2 stroke 3cyl merc . wife is out buying life policy before im allowed.

[Moses on water]

So now we know what she weighs and what size she is . What would be the period correct motor to run on her? Kg7h or Mark 20h? With the 14” transom would they be sufficient?any other motors come to mind?could u put something newer? Are they available in short enough shaft to work properly, guess you’d have to have remote gas tank for newer?

[zul8tr]

So now we know what she weighs and what size she is . What would be the period correct motor to run on her? Kg7h or Mark 20h? With the 14” transom would they be sufficient?any other motors come to mind?could u put something newer? Are they available in short enough shaft to work properly, guess you’d have to have remote gas tank for newer?

With a short boat 8'-8" it is limited on the engine that will work. You mention KG7H (1952 - 1953) and 20H (1954 -1956), 20H more expensive of the two. The KG7H being older would be the better choice for the period but not much power for the weights noted previously (Ex: 122 boat + 290 you or 200 son + 80 eng + 15 (1 gal gas, jacket, helmet) = 507 or 417 Lbs. With a 14" transom that is very short for a KG7H and 20H to be at their best, they work at 16"+ with proper set up, weight, prop, etc. Also these are very old engines and needed great care through the years and to find one in good shape requires a decent search.

Not familiar with the older pre 1952 engines that were used on these Neals that might be more period correct.

Does it have to be period correct to have fun or will it be a display?

[rumleyfips]

Your boat may have been built before there was a Stock division for hydroplanes. In the mid 50's, a B racing hydro ( google Hubble Sorenson Hybrid ) was 10 feet long.

The correct period engine might be an Evinrude KR55 for A racing. Google Boatsport.org , click on BoatSport and look at May 1955 page 9 and June 1953 page 16.

There is little information ( I can find ) about boats of this era. If you find and post stuff things will be good.

[zul8tr]

Finally got the computer to cooperate with uploading pics that failed yesterday, Ron Hill helped, thanks. Here are the Dutchman patch pics I did on my 4mm ocume hydro deck.

Pics came out of order even though I entered from last to first, go figure, Grrrr!

Step 1, 4th pic - cut out damaged area, shape to suit damaged area. I have seen hearts, diamonds, many crazy shapes used for fun.

Step 2, 3rd pic - install under side patch support. I used strips rather than a solid piece, glued with epoxy

Step 3, 1st pic -patch cut to fit, glued with epoxy and pressed in place with wood spring clamps from ceiling, I did not want fasteners of any kind. Dutchman patch made from a paper templet and traced to wood and cut slightly oversize then final fit edges with sanding block. Wax paper to prevent attachment to pressure pieces of wood.

Step 4, 2nd pic - Sanded flush and ready for clear coat or color as desired.

[Master Oil Racing Team]

That looks good. Thanks for the pictures and how you did it. I understand the GRRR, but I did the same thing myself. You need to think backwards now and post the last picture that you want to go with your narrative first and end up with the beginning. It's kind of messed up to do it that way, but believe me......posting pictures now is a breeze...like it use to be. I don't know when this new change came about, but I went for a couple of years without posting pictures. In fact, quit the stories I was working on. So it easy now if you remember to download the pictures backwards from what you want to say.

[Moses on water]

Like confusuch say 4 pictures worth a thousand words totally awesome thank you very much for sharing your expertise to keep my very cool ol Boat together, and those articles in the mag reprints about dick Neal are GOLD!

[Ketzer]

Just for grins and fun reading, Google (or DuckDuckGo if you're mad at Google) FAA.Gov AC 43.13-1A. It's a handbook (Advisory Circular 43.13-1A, Acceptable Methods, Techniques, and Practices--Aircraft Inspection and Repair) on how to do major alterations and repairs on aircraft. The handbook has been around since, I think, the 1950s, so it includes wood and fabric repairs, as well as fiberglass, plastics, and metal. It was updated not too long ago (maybe 15 or 20 years?) to include composites, avionics and human factors. In the old days, during the practical portion of the exam to get an A&P license, you might have to build a rib or made a patch, along with a bunch of other stuff. But the "Dutchman Patch" pictures were great and cut to the chase.

[zul8tr]

Just for grins and fun reading, Google (or DuckDuckGo if you're mad at Google) FAA.Gov AC 43.13-1A. It's a handbook (Advisory Circular 43.13-1A, Acceptable Methods, Techniques, and Practices--Aircraft Inspection and Repair) on how to do major alterations and repairs on aircraft. The handbook has been around since, I think, the 1950s, so it includes wood and fabric repairs, as well as fiberglass, plastics, and metal. It was updated not too long ago (maybe 15 or 20 years?) to include composites, avionics and human factors. In the old days, during the practical portion of the exam to get an A&P license, you might have to build a rib or made a patch, along with a bunch of other stuff. But the "Dutchman Patch" pictures were great and cut to the chase.

My Google search, not available for a read just purchase

[Ketzer]

Huh. Weird. I can get it. Try this:

https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/advisory_circulars/index.cfm/.../99861

[Ketzer]

Well, that didn't work (I had to back out and get back in to check it), but if you Google "faa.gov ac 43.13-1b", the first two listings will get you to the manual, and the second listing (PDF) will take you directly to it. The government only charges for hardcopy (Amazon will charge for anything).

[zul8tr]

Well, that didn't work (I had to back out and get back in to check it), but if you Google "faa.gov ac 43.13-1b", the first two listings will get you to the manual, and the second listing (PDF) will take you directly to it. The government only charges for hardcopy (Amazon will charge for anything).

Did that earlier and NADA just did it again and WALA will review it, TKS

[rumleyfips]

J4 is probably John Schubert. He would know the year the BSH was photographed. Probably 1954.

http://www.boatracingfacts.com/forums/showthread.php?10032-Want-to-buy!-Neal-Hydro

[Moses on water]

What’s the epoxy glue of choice for these repairs you guys? I’m not sure what to buy. I have got the plywood available.

[rumleyfips]

If you google ' Claude Fox album page 3 ', the second picture down is Dick Neal.

[zul8tr]

What’s the epoxy glue of choice for these repairs you guys? I’m not sure what to buy. I have got the plywood available.

Lots of answers here and many preferences, most use the expensive West System epoxy that has several resin and hardener types available . I have used several including West. I like the simple 1:1 mix epoxy, easy to mix equal volumes in a marked cup. The others like 2:1, 3:1,4:1 etc mix are more critical mix proportions epoxy and they have to be mixed right, not like polyester resin with MEK catalyst that a hot quick cure can be made. I get my 1:1 epoxy from Clark Craft, consider a gallon for your repairs and coating the bare wood bottom and sides. Never had a glue line failure in many years on the race boats and it has rather long shelf life plus it is a somewhat flexible epoxy, brittle bad like bar top epoxy. I use Cabisil (fumated silica) for a structural thickener. Note that this thickener will turn the epoxy off-white depending on how thick you make the epoxy. For areas to be clear coated and finished bright keep that in mind.

Epoxy needs to be protected from UV or it will yellow and chemically have issues. For UV protection over epoxy I use the Minwax Helmsman Spar urethane varnish (brush application), some use auto clear coat with hardener and with UV additive (spray application, need good respirator mask, spray booth, toxic stuff, some have paint and body shop spray the clear), or use a solid color over the epoxy.

Clark Craft is having a epoxy sale $59/gal + ship reg $72, good deal:

http://www.clarkcraft.com/cgi-supplies/shop_responsive.pl?type=topic&topic_name_value=epoxy_resin&cart_id=

But do more research on epoxy to see what is available

[Moses on water]

Thanks for the info I’ll try to dive in soon. I found a guy with a kh7 10 merc that is in ok shape would that mounted on the ol hydro give me any thrill or be sitting to slow for such a big boy?

[zul8tr]

Thanks for the info I’ll try to dive in soon. I found a guy with a kh7 10 merc that is in ok shape would that mounted on the ol hydro give me any thrill or be sitting to slow for such a big boy?

Service KG7 will be a slug for you on a 14" transom probably in the 30mph range, IMO not much thrill but a thrill for some I would spend money on a better engine for thrill? If you want closer to period and closer to thrill you need the KG7H or a 20H (more $$). Note the H gear cases need mucho maintenance to keep in good shape, can't just run them and put away till next time, they need to be serviced after each use especially the outer cone needle bearings unless it is a bushed cone. I service the outer cone bearings and change the gear oil after each use of my 25ss with essentially the same type gear case as the 20H and that has kept if trouble free (just seals on occasion) since new in 1973. If you get one of these H jobs the gear case and tower are the most expensive part, so the gear case needs inspection to be sure it is not in poor shape and need rebuilding and that is $$$.

[smittythewelder]

I just sold a bunch of old Keller speedometers, but still have one, a red wrinkle 15-45mph screw-on guage, that should be period-correct for your boat, and I'm saving it for anyone who has an antique like your Neal.

http://hydroracer.net/forums/forum/main/so-mod-pro-buy-sell/461865-keller-speedometers