Towers anyone ? [Archive] - Boat Racing Facts Forums

will350

11-21-2005, 11:58 AM

After a couple hours of rooting around , I think I have all the pieces I'm going to need for this . 5/8" plate , 3/16" plate , clamps , pivot and a motor.
My usual go at these is to just start sawing and kind of let nature take it's course . Since I'd like this to be somewhat "understandable" , I'll have to make a few changes in my MO . One thing I have to do is get a hold of another
saw ( I did buy a new skilsaw this summer but since I'm doing a re-model , I'd rather use one that's "dedicated and sacrificial " to do this . ) I figure a used saw will make about a dozen of these before it packs up . If you were a little more cautious and thoughtful than I am , you would get quite a bit more life out of them than I do .
The next order of business is to root through the house and find the tools I'll need to do the lay out ( I know that my tri-square and carpenter square are in here in here some where !)
Building one of these is really pretty simple ( for me , anyway ) The most difficult part of this for me will be the ..... ummmm....... presentaton .
Any input on that subject would be highly appreciated .
Thought I'd start with materials and tools ? ( when I find them.Should charge my camera batteries too)
Will

will350

11-23-2005, 11:18 AM

This is what starting out with . The piece of plate on the left is 3/16 for the sides , the piece on the right is 5/8 for the motor mount and L/U mount .
The motor is one of my "Johnny Cash" specials assembled from a variety of my best used pieces . Air cooled bottom end and a "gifted " L/C top end with some suggested porting . I've done this before and it was one of the best runners I've had before it went lean at the end of the Kilos and burned off the BIG end of the rod on the top hole. The tower-clamps are from my first effort so I've got a sort of head start . It worked OK with the exception of having enough deflection betwixt the motor and L/U to be really hard on couplers and input shafts . When I get the layout done , I'll post that .
Will

will350

11-25-2005, 09:31 AM

This is the "initial ( ?) rough lay out . It's kind of strange looking but the camera wouldn't pickup the scribed lines , hence the blue tape .
The pieces are slightly over finished size at 6"X19" for the 350 and .......
6"X25" for the 500 ( That's right, a 500 Polaris triple ) The L/U plates are
the same size at 4 3/4"X10". The side plates are roughly sized and will have
to be "custom " fitted and cut to final shape after the L/u plate is in it's proper place .
The first order of business is to cut out the rough pieces . That's the easy part . The hard part will the finished plate . I'm pretty finicky and if I had my "druthers " , I'd be hauling this stuff off to the machine shop and have them machine it to my specs but "Mr. bank account " is telling me to go buy a cheap saw and a decent blade and spend a few days filing and checking and filing and checking some more until I run out of patience or it's "good enough" to satisfy my critical eye . So.............................
I'm off to fight my way through the busiest shopping day of the year ......
Will

will350

11-30-2005, 07:12 PM

I have the parts " rough cut " and drilled except for the side plates . I'll leave them pretty much as is till I'm ready to mount the motor cause I want to run them as high up as I can get them . Will "cut to fit " when I get them in position . I drilled the foot plate to accept a 302 or Bass ( new style with the pivot pin in the foot ) . That way if I ever get one of these to make enough power to eat a 302 foot , I have another way to go . ( Thanks to Sid for the pattern .)
I just had to "sort of " assemble it to see how much filing it was going to take to get everything to bolt up . HOLY MOLEY ! I can't beleive it but NONE . Everything fits like it's supposed to and lines up ( lay out is EVERYTHING )
The next order of business will be to go over to my friend's place for a little tool abuse to do the final sizing and finish before all the drilling and tapping . Since the front plate AND foot plate are layed out on a center
line , the only real critical issue is to get the centers lined up and square .
I'm cheating in comparison my usual M/O . Along with my other "stone age tools " I making use of a table saw and a jointer . ( very , very light cuts and it comes out great)
Will

Joe Silvestri 36-S

12-01-2005, 05:08 AM

Nice work! What class will this engine be racing in?

will350

12-01-2005, 09:50 AM

It's a legal 350 PRO motor . The crank case and igniton are from a fan cooled unit and the top end is from a liquid cooled . Both 340cc Polaris . I have a few things I'm going to try on this one to make it a little more "user friendly".
At the moment , the ignition is ET but CDI will fit right on . Normally they run 36mm Mikuni round slides . I'm going to adapt HD Tillotsons (1 1/2" bore).
I run these on gas at 40:1 Power Punch 2 stroke oil . There are some who frown on this but then the only thing I ever tried to run on alcohol was
me and after several severe "burn downs" , I had to cut way back on the percentage . Beside that , I "know " what the parameters on gas are and it's available on "any corner" USA . These things are inexpensive ( cheap) and there are thousands of them gathering dust in barns and basements .
I was going to do up a 500 but that's on hold till I "see" why it won't turn
( RATS , I knew I should've put in the closet )
When I finish the tower , I'll do a write-up on the motor if there's any interest in that ?
Will

Ron Hill

12-01-2005, 10:11 AM

Don't tell me you are giving up in the clutch????

Or did I not see it??

Cool pieces!!!!

Where is your OLD Polaris 350????

will350

12-01-2005, 02:14 PM

No , I'm not giving up on the "Old " one . I'ts the most reliable thing I have despite running 3 laps of the final heat at DePue ( 2004) with the pick-up hose dangling in the wind and getting so bloody hot I couldn't touch it for over an hour . Forgot to re-torque it before we ran at Lawrence . In spite of that oversight , it made testing on Friday( low 80s with me in it ) and almost 2 heats ( collision in turn 1 between Bill Diamond and my brother ) before I noticed that it was missing a nut on one of the head studs . Blew a head gasket but that's pretty much it . The bores look wonderful despite all the abuse .The "old" one was direct drive to begin with so it's an easy thing to upgrade to on this . Just have to have the cash to buy the parts .
If someone would buy my Dodge .............. I could pay for my teeth AND do this up with a clutch .
Since it's snowing like crazy now and my friend isn't home today( he won't let me abuse his tools without supervision) , I'm going out to shop and pull the top off the "new" motor and drill the pulse ports I'll need to run those Tillotsons and do some "thinking" about the adapters I need to turn them so I can get the linkages lined up .
Will

Ron Hill

12-01-2005, 03:11 PM

My two teeth were $2,300...and now that I ain't got no job, that came out of my racing budget!!!!

Dodge?? What year??? Put that SUCKER on E-Bay...Sold everything but my Sleek....

Do they run 350 Runabout at DePue??? I could borrow Dave Mayer's DeSilva...and run your old Polaris!!!!!! Chad knows how hot motors get without water......He blistered his hand on our Parker V-6......That baby was hot for two days after the race....and Chad is still "HOT" about the gearcase coming loose!!!!

So, the clutch is after you get her running????

Joe Silvestri 36-S

12-01-2005, 05:11 PM

Thanks for the feedback Will. Sounds like a very interesting project. I'm anxious to see it done.

Lee Tietze

12-02-2005, 04:02 AM

will350

12-02-2005, 10:06 AM

Will,
Your new Tower project looks great. To me the most interesting part, is that your making it with hand tools. Do the layout with a scale, scribe and punch it by hand, cut it out on a band saw and drill all the holes. And as you know if the powerhead to Gearcase alignment is not correct. The tower will shake itself apart and then crack. And its tough on gears.

I rough these out with a skil saw about an 1/16" outside the scribe lines to start . On the first ones LOTS of hand work to get them straight and square and get the finished edge "acceptable" . Started the same way on this but I experimented some and found that I could run it through the table saw
and come out square , straight and paralell with a finish that only needs a minor amount of "dressing up " and if I really want to go nuts , through the jointer for a "machine shop" finished edge .
Since the line up is so critical that's why I do these on center-lines .
As long as the center-lines match and the foot and front plate are square and perpendicular ( and your crank center stand-off is right )
you're "in em " . I've only had one gear case problem when one of my first efforts ate up a couple and in-put shaft . And... These are mechanically fastened for several reasons . They "buzz" pretty hard and welds BREAK .
During assembly , if you screw up a little , you can adjust for your mistake
without having to make a whole new piece ( unless you REALLY...........)
Last but not least ... They look pretty cool ( all those screws )

On my newest tower desing I start with a solid Billet of Aluminum 4" x 6" x 11" long . The blank Starts at 17lbs, then 4 hours of machining later it weighs 6lbs. But I use the Haas drill press with power steering, so its load and go.
My Bridgeport Mill is mostly used an anchor. it make a mess on the floor, and makes too much noise, I cant hear the big screen. keep up the good work

( heavy sigh and lots of wishful thinking + smiling and chuckling ) I can help you out on the messy floor and noise issue . I "think" my S-15 will pack that Bridgeport and I wouldn't mind not being able to hear the .......
Will

QUINAULTRACING

12-02-2005, 11:30 PM

WILL, i have the middle of next week open all day 12/6, 12/7, 12/8. I'd like to come over and watch you work on the tower and talk a little prop. what is the best day to come over, the day that you will be doing a little of everything measure, cut , hammer, drill, the whole works. send me an e-mail with your address, i can drive the first the first 129 miles but once i get within 1 mile or less i make a wrong turn. Indiaola right. send me street address and best day. see ya later steve

John (Taylor) Gabrowski

12-02-2005, 11:31 PM

I am really enjoying your writeup on you making up this hybrid. The cost involved being so economical I can see the word "heresy" :) , "tar" :) and "feathers" :) on some other engine builder's and owner's lips though there is no sound, their lips are still moving! LOL!

I can sure remember the days of the Tillotson HDs on the JLOs and Hirths and the freeair 2 strokes of the 1970s snowmo development period. A pair of them seemed big enough to swallow the driver behind them! and that sucking noise!! Hungry for fuel/air even on a 340! ;)

will350

12-03-2005, 02:17 PM

I can sure remember the days of the Tillotson HDs on the JLOs and Hirths and the freeair 2 strokes of the 1970s snowmo development period. A pair of them seemed big enough to swallow the driver behind them! and that sucking noise!! Hungry for fuel/air even on a 340! ;)[/QUOTE]

Since I can't abuse my friends tools till Sunday , thought I'd finish up on my carb adapters and pulse ports . Pretty straight forward for the ports , drill down through the flange right through the sleeve .( I did this after the adapters were roughed out and mounted so the block port to adapter port matched exactly) Then notch the sleeve up to the hole . The adapters were pretty simple too . Layout the bolt holes and the center hole ( I used the drill press and an 1 1/2" hole saw for that )
drill and tap for carb studs , drill and counter sink the mount holes . Then cut a groove in the carb face for the pulse port .
We'll just see if these monsterous things will work out .
Sort of "off topic" but this is the motor that will go on this tower but then sometimes these threads have a life of their own.
Will

Ron Hill

12-03-2005, 05:14 PM

Will, you told me you find these motors on E-Bay, sometimes... Would you tell me the model or size that you are using, maybe I'll buy a few...

As I have told you before, I think you are on to something....

Am I invited to come watch too??? I might come up.....

will350

12-03-2005, 08:25 PM

When we started this Ebay was the source but after some looking ( and getting burnt) I went looking at the snomo sites on the web .
snowmobileswapmeet.com has lots of stuff daily . The Polaris is an
ec34pl ( I think ) 80-81 TXL Indy . Stock rated at 54-56 HP . All the ec34 Polaris motors have the same stroke so you can do a bunch of "mix and match". I have seen whole sleds for $300-500 . The 354 Rotax is probably a better motor because of the rotary valve and I "think" you can spin them a little more . But these work pretty good .
You can come and watch anytime . Any one who wants to can . I have absolutely NO secrets . These are real simple and straight forward ( and inexpensive )
If you to run my "old motor " at DePue on a runabout , you're more than welcome but I think you better get a Krier . I can't believe how awesome those turn .
Will

Ron Hill

12-03-2005, 10:20 PM

will350

12-04-2005, 10:20 AM

Dave Mayer has a Krier runabout, but his DeSilva looked more my speed....I'm basically full of it about racing, but maybe.....we could get J. Michael Kelly to drive it...350 Runabout..got to have a CLUTCH though!!!

E-bay too much BS??? I'll check what you posted...or better yet, you find it, I could finance a couple of motors...I've got a 102 gearcase, I think...right, Bill Boyes???

Full of it ! ! ? NAWWWW . I can't beleive anyone could be more twitchy
than I was when I went DePue ( or any time I get in one ) . If anyone could pull this off , it would be J. Michael but I think he's going to be real busy with something considerably larger .
Been surfing around trying to find info on small fluid couplers . Think they might have some advantages . May be able to get or make one with high
stall speed and wouldn't have a "hard couple" effect . ( reduced impulse loads on the L/U and crank )
Ebay.......hmmmm Sometimes you really don't know what you're getting and most of the time , when you're driven by the "I want that now"
syndrome , you pay more than it's really worth . I've found that if you're patient , things will come to you . I just found another motor for my truck for $100 , the last one I "really" needed was $450+$175 for parts .
If you're serious about about a couple motors ........ PM me at
will350@eskimo.com and we'll talk about it . That goes for anyone else too .
Going to my "friends" house for a tool abuse session . Should have pics of the finished pieces this eve .
Will

will350

12-05-2005, 07:05 PM

These are the finished " ready for assembly " pieces . After some experimentation , we decided to finish cut them on Tom's chop saw .
Four reasons . 1 - The table saw throws chips in your face and ....
when you push it , those little carbide teeth sometimes come off and "in your face " . 2 - The adjustability on chop saw is infinite. 3 - the guard directs all that stuff away from you. 4 - The finish is plenty acceptable for this
I've checked them every way from Sunday and all the measurements check out to as close as I can see ( with 2 pair of glasses ) They're so close to right on and square that assembly will be really easy . Should have the preliminary assembly sometime this week .
Will

John (Taylor) Gabrowski

12-05-2005, 07:24 PM

Been looking at Ebay too though everyone here has a treasure trove of those engines from older to newest at the dealer level and they compete for at the public insurance salvage auctions they have here every Wednesday like all the rest too. Get a 1 year old sled back end wiped out for about a grand, sell off the peripherals and pretty much get the engine, pipes, carbs or fuel injection for less than half that. Some of the horsepower of the newer sled liquid cool engines take your breath away with over 100 horsepower out of a 440 - 550 CC 2 stroke. That would sure give a centrifical clutch some workout! :)

will350

12-06-2005, 12:28 AM

Some of the horsepower of the newer sled liquid cool engines take your breath away with over 100 horsepower out of a 440 - 550 CC 2 stroke. That would sure give a centrifical clutch some workout! :)[/QUOTE]

I've talked to more than one builder who has told me that the Polaris 340 that I'm running will make 103-104 in all out drag set up . Was told by another that 440 Rotaxes can make close to 120 .
Will

will350

12-07-2005, 12:59 AM

I found some "extra" time this afternnon to get started on assembly .
Pretty straight forward . Clamp it up to get an idea of how everything lines up . Attatch the foot plate first with 1 fastener( it has to be fairly close to final so take your time with this ) , jockey it around till you get the line up , then drill the other 2 holes to tap size. Tap the foot plate , drill the front plate , bolt it up . It "should" be right on , if not , there's adjustment room there . Attach the side plate to the front plate in 3 places FIRST( mark out all the hole positions ) . After you get that done , clamp the foot plate to the side plate and adjust accordingly .
When it's in position mark the holes and drill the last one ( furthest aft)
with your tap drill , disassemble, drill out the side plate and tap the foot
plate . Reassemble to the line up . Now your ready to drill the rest of the holes with the tap drill to the proper depth . Pull it apart,drill out and tap accordingly . De-burr ( If you want to polish , nows the time ) and assemble with screws or bolts of your choice WITH LOCTITE ( I like to use lock washers too ) Now your ready to do the other side . Pretty simple really .
Will

will350

12-11-2005, 12:53 PM

I was going to drill and tap ( lots ) today .......... but....... After I got the first 2 bolts in the other side , I couldn't get it to line up properly . After a considerable amount of checking ( and thinking ) , I found that the front plate has a YEHAWW in it . .020 , or so , right at the lower motor mount holes .
Can't put it together like that. If I did , the line up would wind up twice that far off at the bottom fore and aft . Not a real catastrophy , I'll just take it apart and slide over to my other friends place and press it straight . I'll have to move some of the holes a little but no big deal .
Another one of those little things you take for granted , that a piece of 5/8" plate "will" be flat.
Decided to go with pan head phillips , 3/4"X 1/4-20 , stainless with washers . ( 52 @ $.25 per screw and washer ) . I thought about allen heads
bit the price was double and I know these will be OK .
Guess I'm done for today .
Will

will350

12-13-2005, 04:15 PM

I got the front plate straightened up after a bit of trial and error . I'ts as close as I can get it with what I have . My guess is + or - .0025 .
I drilled the thing with the side plates bolted on with 3 bolts per side to the line up with a tap drill , then pull off the sides , drill the side plate holes to 1/4" and tap the holes in the front and foot plate to 1/4" X 20 ( make sure the holes are deep enough for the screws and run a botton tap in them , I made one from a broken one I had ) Now , you're ready to assemble .
Start at the corner and work your way out toward the ends , alternate sides when you do this ! Don't try to do one side first , you'll be bummed out .
Put one in one side then put the coresponding one in the other side .
AND.... Do the Wilford Brimley thing " check your line up and check it often"
like every screw until you get the foot plate screwed on with the same number of scews up the front plate . It is really surprising how much these will "move" during assembly ( Really ) When I put the screws in , I loctite them and run them in to "hand tight " with a screw driver . Then I use my hammer powered impact and take another 1/3-1/4 turn to get them tight .
I think any more than that and you'll start to pull the threads .
It turned out a little closer across the motor than I figured but it'll work .
I'm going to have to do some thinking about the ignition coils and the fuel pump location and I have some "finish" work ( it's not a "beauty queen" but I don't want a wad of "pointy" corners either . )
It'll look better when I get the cylinder back on it . Then the "real fun"
begins . ( carb linkage , pump , ignition , steering bars , etc. )
I suppose that I "should" run down and see Sid Bass and see if my pattern
is going to fit his foot too . ( that would be a good idea )
Will

7500Blizzard

12-15-2005, 06:40 PM

the old 440 rotax's made almost 100hp right out of the factory 25 years ago. And can go from there, they also have the ability too be turned with some serious rpm's for long periods of time. The 440 makes it's peak just under 9000 stock and up to 11000 in race form.

will350

12-18-2005, 02:47 PM

I "could've" been doing my dishes .... or my laundry... or fixing the broken clutch diaphragm in my dirty S-15 ..... But NOOOOO . Ron posts a picture of that shiny OMC tower and all I wanted to do was take off some of the "pointy things" .
Now I have to do "something" with the clamps ( you just CAN'T put this on a set of ugly clamps ) I found something else "interesting" while I was
cogitating ( I think that means staring at something with a blank,really blank in my case lately, mind )
THe Polaris and Rotax bolt pattern are the same but the bolts are different size ( 7/16 vs 3/8). The crank centers are different . So ........ with some bushings and the proper spacers you could run either on this tower .
This could be even better than I thought when I started this .
Will

RichardKCMo

12-18-2005, 09:56 PM

Are you taking Orders? How much for the clutch? Have you thought about running in Mod? Curiousity gets the best thought sometimes.
RichardKCMo

will350

12-19-2005, 08:12 AM

Are you taking Orders? How much for the clutch? Have you thought about running in Mod? Curiousity gets the best thought sometimes.
RichardKCMo

Well... If some one were to want one of these ? I'd be happy to build one for anybody who would want one . It beats the fool out of what I usually do to make my tax payments.( I used to be able to spend an entire day on a creeper , rolling around under a car or truck but now days it's a different story)
I'd have to sit down and figure out a fair price for the time and material.
I don't "think" it would astronomical . It would depend on what you wanted in terms of a motor and foot mostly and whether or not you provided them or I had to . I can tell you that , as I remember, my 250 bravo was less than $300 from the flywheel to the prop. The motor was free, the lower unit ( OMC A foot ) was $200 and I can't imagine that I spent more than another $100 for the rest . For the one I'm doing now .......The range on the motor , $300-500 , new Yamato 302 lower unit $700 ( with a nose cone and 9/16 prop shaft and coupler ) clamps , $100 (?) , new material , maybe another $150 .This all just a guess but I would think a "high side" estimate to be right around $1500- 1700 for pieces and roughly the same for my time . ( "I think"
that would be about "right" ? I've never really totaled up what I have in one so there might be something I'm missing )
The clutch cost $175 and that's just for the unit . No drum . I'm going to inquire if they can make the outer segments out of aluminum to help get the engagement speed up . ( 2500-3000 would make a world of difference to the 1600 or so it has now) They make all sorts of different applications for this thing but the operating range for the drums they provide isn't anywhere near what these will turn as they're a centrifugal cast unit . I guess you could try one and hope it would stand up ? You "might" be able to shrink a steel band around it for some "extra" strength ?
As far as MOD goes ........ They never were "real" outboard motors from a production stand point. Trying to create real parity between them and what's there now would make the "AXS vs OMC" and the "Tahotsu-Bass vs Mercury"
thing fade away to nothing in comparison . There are just too many of them
and all with different porting and carburation etc. The inspectors would have to have an entire rolling library to even begin to have enough info . No offense
but those kinds of thoughts could easily get you a visit from the "tar and feathers" brigade . ( Something I would've had long ago if some folks knew where I lived due to my ,ummmm, "attitude". LOL ) These are basically an APBA PRO motor on gas . They're not real competitive in 350cch ... But then
they don't cost an appendage or 2 , They are REALLY reliable , 100 mph is well within the realm of possibility and one "could" blow up 8-10 of them for the cost of one new PRO power head . With more "investment" in R&D , I think
you could get real close to the guys on top . ( but then what the heck do I know?) They'd be a dandy lakeracer , say a 700cc twin with electric start , a clutch and "muffled" . That could leave some serious stains in your driving
suit.
If anyone does want to ............... send me an email and we'll talk about it .
Will

Ron Hill

12-19-2005, 05:25 PM

Will,

I will polish the clamps and ship them back, for free...Just because you've written a great article...and you've inspired me to build a 45 MID section.....

7500Blizzard

12-19-2005, 08:01 PM

The new Rotax 1000 twin is about 170 hp with over 150ft/lbs of torque on premium gas it has sdi fuel injection with two 52mm dry throttlebodies would make a nasty lake or 1100 engine..

John (Taylor) Gabrowski

12-19-2005, 10:29 PM

Now that is one nasty looken 2 cylinder Rotax arite! At 160 HP on 2 cylinders I can only wonder what set of gears are gonna take 80 HP a side? How will they, those gears wear? :)

will350

12-20-2005, 08:04 AM

GOOD GRIEF !!! That's more HP & torque than my pick up has and.......
Those throttle bodies have sent me off on another tangent of thought that I've been trying to suppress . Dog gone you Ken , It's good thing I didn't see this last night or I wouldn't have slept at all .
Lately , I've had a couple of rigs show up with EFI . Normally , I don't touch those things because I try to stick to things I understand and the first time I "touched" one , it turned into a 3 week ordeal . I DID win ( finally ) .
Anyway, It got me to thinking about a very simple EFI set up for a "racing only" application . Since this doesn't have to have a whole big bunch of "driveability" (80-90% at WOT ) it shouldn't have to be as sophisticated as a set up that has to start and idle AND have excellent response through out the entire range ( + run 100,000 + miles ) I "think" you could do it with a minimum of inputs,say TPS , EGT , RPM . So far I've been told that you can "sort of" control an electronic injector with a square wave generator with an amplifier .
You'd need a enough PSI for the injector . The "mechanical" part of this is fairly simple but the "electronic" end is way beyond me . Are there any wizards here that would "know" ?
ENOUGH OF THAT ! ! ..........( Ken , you're a "bad" man )...................
Ron,Thanks for the offer, but I think I've come to my senses or back to earth...or something . Clean is plenty good for this.
AND..... Where would you find a lower unit that would even begin to deal with the impulse loads that WILL generate ? This is one of those things where a fluid coulper would really help to stretch out the "time to load" . I DO have a few other thoughts on a drive that "might" handle that but if I carry on with them in public , in my minds eye I can already see a crowd gathering armed with pitch forks , torches and arm loads of wood ........ Chanting burn ,
burn , BURN THE HERETIC ! ! Coventional is NOT my middle name and since I really don't want to go on the run , I'll just be quiet ( about that ) and try to stay focused on ........? (Rats ! )
Will

The new Rotax 1000 twin is about 170 hp with over 150ft/lbs of torque on premium gas it has sdi fuel injection with two 52mm dry throttlebodies would make a nasty lake or 1100 engine..

will350

12-21-2005, 05:14 PM

I'm "cleaning up" so before I stash things away , I thought I'd take couple pics so you can see the progession from where I started to now .
From right to left , the first one that ran a 250 Yamaha Bravo single made out of aluminum channel and 3/16" sides ( I ran this for 3 years before the "need" got to me) . The first Polaris 340 tower . Originally this had a F/C
340 on it but when we started running L/C , it ate up couplers and input shafts . Double the HP made it deflect through the center . ( It is kind of skinny ) The Polaris clutch unit . There are 2 sets of mount holes . One for the Polaris and one for a 440 F/C Arcti Cat Kawasaki ( I couldn't get it run on end but I didn't try very hard either )
The "fish scaley" looking thing is under my "un-run" 125 . The wide fat one is under the Wankle. Both these were done with 1/2" and 1/8" on the sides .
The Wankle has been run for roughly 30 minutes in testing and doesn't appear to have any problems with construction or materials .
The last one.................... the new project . Clean IS just fine .
I'm going to have to do some "cutting" on those shiny sides to get to the fuel pump pulse port and maybe the other side too to clear that side for some "Rotax" things but it's moving along .
It's easy to see that the basic idea hasn't changed much .
Will

will350

12-27-2005, 06:32 PM

Took a few days to make my Dodge into better driver because my dirty S-15 broke (1 out of 2 isn't too bad) ......
It's starting to look more complete . Final mount on the carbs and fab the throttle linkage . I decided I'd put a "main" pump on it. If you look , you can see where I'm going to have to gouge out a little piece on the tower to clear the fuel pump mount . That part on the end of the cable underneath the pipe will get screwed to the pivot .
The throttle cable from the boat will be anchored with 2 short pieces of 5/16" fuel hose clamped over the housing and I'll make a connector .
If I had 2 velocity stacks the same ................( If someone were to have another one of the "shiny" aluminum ones for an HD Tillotson, you could
"send " it to me . I'd be "good" about it.)
The pipe is just tied on and propped up ( pun intended) for now. This is a stock pipe . I've run them in this spot before but up a little higher . I have another one with an extra 1 1/2" that swings around underneath . The stock one is about 5 mph faster @ 80+ on a long (1 1/4 mile) than the "tuck under"
and I have 3 otherS ( 2 twin sets and another single off a 400cc Polaris,we'll get to those after I make it run)
Steering bars and drive shart are next . Then , when that's all fit up , I'll take it down , make it "purty" , reassemble and "see" if it'll run . That might be interesting . This is made from a pile of extra used parts that were stashed in various corners and a "gifted" barrel from Carl Lewis that's been ported(a little by me, a little by some else, a little more by me ........... I haven't the faintest idea how this is going to be ? ! ? ??)
Stay tuned .
Will

John (Taylor) Gabrowski

12-28-2005, 11:57 AM

A friend of mine north of here has a vintage / collectors Merc 440 Twister Air Cooled with 2 Tillotson HDs and velocity stacks. For him, tunning is real simple! One turn open on the high speed needle and leave it alone! One and one quarter turn on the Low speed needle and leave it alone. Asked him about temperature variations and his answer was leave them needles alone, but that is for below freezing temps! How much less needle value turnout for say 80 degrees F? Gotta be some change to lean out a bit you would think? :) Asked him about Merc's use of Walboro carbs? He had a pained term for them! Yeeeech! :mad:

will350

12-30-2005, 01:18 PM

Fuel system is "plumbed" , Steering bars mounted and the mount for the "up front" pipe The "down under" pipe won't take much to mount but that long skinny one (off a 400 Polaris) will take a little bit of thought . The center section of it is round and straight so I can cut it and make a "slider" section
to "adjust" it. The ones with the brackets are off my Rotax( adjustable) as are the "fat" ones . The "curley Q" gizzies are from a Yamaha Banshee . I ran one on my 250 and it seemed to work OK , don't know how a pair will work on this. The 2 shiney things are jet ski pipes , short , water injectable with pretty big exits. Will they work ? ? I know that I've run some really small pipes on R/C stuff water cooled so who knows.
The drive shaft is complete except for the nut and bolt that go in the end of the crank to drive the socket. All in all , a crude set up but the bearings in the motor are designed to handle a big huge spinning object so it can be off a smidge with out any "really" bad consequences . It's only a piece of 1/2" square cold rolled filed to fit the coupler with a socket . (Craftsman of
course,gauranteed for "life". Now all I gotta do is wait for spring ( and hope I can find a crew to help me test)
Will
(Oh..... and it makes noise too.......)

QUINAULTRACING

12-30-2005, 07:44 PM

WILL, everything looks great. and looks like you have made tons of progress sense my last visit. as far as a crew to help with testing, all you have to do is CALL. QUINAULTRACING AND ASSOC. is always willing and almost ready to help with testing. I'd say come up to LAKE QUINAULT but BBBBUUURR this time of year the lake is full of ice water, and wood. Find a body of water that we can run on and we wait for a good two or three day window of nicer weather. I will call a emergency meeting with the owners of QUINAULTRACING (my wife:eek: and grandchildren:) ) and see if they have the FUNDS to help with such a project. SANTA has been pretty good this year so i don't foresee any problems there.;) We also have two hulls ( 86" SORENSON knell-er or a 96" APEL lay-down) both are yours to test with anytime you want. Even have two new props we might make work (prop testing also) and some old ones that will work. JUST CALL WHEN YOU ARE READY AND HAPPY NEW YEAR FROM ALL OF US ON THE WEST SIDE OF THE OLYMPIC PENINSULA. P.S. have heard roumers of a ONE WEEK PRO WILDCAT RETREAT THAT WILL BE GOING TO BE AT LAKE QUINAULT IN THE NEXT WEEK OR TWO :eek: ) we race ice cubes (so we think we are in the lake) on the table, floor, or where ever you like, just got news that this year we have a 250 hull, a CSH hull and a canoe in the house upside down to race on the bottoms, will use canoe for KILOS. bring your own head ache pills. To find out more and exact time call the LAKE. your rope puller all ways steve..22-R QUINAULTRACING:) :)

will350

01-02-2006, 06:56 PM

It's Ready To Run ...... It always helps to speed things up when you've got a pile of stuff to paw through whe you need a piece. The "down" pipe was really simple to mount. The "up" mount required a little more thought and $10 worth of springs . I think it'll stay there. If it doesn't , I'll figure something else out . You'll notice that the recoil is pointed forward . It'll turn anyway you want. Just in case I can think of a way to start and launch myself, I'll leave it that way. ( I have seen more than 1 pained expression on launch due to the exhaust in either "up" or "down" mode .
While I'm waiting for Spring , I'll get the "clutch" unit back together.
Think I'll see if I can drill some of the periferral weight out of it to get the engagement speed up
Will

Geezeracer

01-07-2006, 05:59 PM

Will say:
"I have seen more than 1 pained expression on launch due to the exhaust in either "up" or "down" mode"

This looks fine. Besides, no matter how you aim it there isn't a way in Hell it can give a roper or holder anything on a par with the ear bleeding, crotch broiling experience of igniting the Wankel blowtorch!

John

will350

01-10-2006, 08:01 PM

Well.... that's certainly true . I can't think much of anything else that you can actually "feel" like the Wankle . A total shame that it won't perform as good as it sounds.
Got out to the shop today and did some"clutch" work. I don't have any way to check this for engagement speed so we'll have to wait and see.
It should bring it up some .... and if it's not enough,I still have the option of taking a little out of the springs.
Will

Will say:
"I have seen more than 1 pained expression on launch due to the exhaust in either "up" or "down" mode"

This looks fine. Besides, no matter how you aim it there isn't a way in Hell it can give a roper or holder anything on a par with the ear bleeding, crotch broiling experience of igniting the Wankel blowtorch!

John

will350

01-11-2006, 06:25 PM

Took some time off from " tooth-o-rama recovery" and went out to the shop.(had 6 pulled Monday AM. ALL will come out on the 23rd so I'm trying to get as much done now as I can)
These pipes are from a Yamaha Banshee . I had to cut an inch off them to get them to fit the flanges. Will they work? I think they might at least work enough to figure out what I might need to do to them. Since I only paid $20 for them,I can "hack and glue" with out too many regrets. Mounts should be fairly simple as I have quite a few places to attach them (and everyone will have rubber isolators)
That other "snail shell) gizzy is my tilt adjustment.One on each side. I've tried this before and it does work and it does not slip. The saddles in the pivot have been filed to fit the contour of the piece. They do wear some but not bad. Been thinking I should make the adjusters out of steel so they don't settle as much as the aluminum ones do but these will work for now.
Will

will350

01-20-2006, 06:59 PM

I thought that today would be the final chapter..... ho ho ho.......
I figured I'd just cut this thing apart , roll up an internal sleeve and fit it so I could slide the center section to adjust it . I've never seen an interally
silenced pipe although I've always wondered about why it wouldn't work as well and be much quieter . Any way... I can make a new center section....
Dig all that stuff out so I can slide inside.....or slide outside(maybe)
This off a 400 twin so it's plenty "big" enough. Also , the stinger is 10" or so into the tail cone. I'm curious about how that insulation and rough surface affects the rebound in the pipe.I'm not quite sure what to do here............
My thought is to cut out all that damping(cut the center section out),make a new center section,maybe an inch bigger in dia. ,sleeve it and be able to slide the rear cone 6" in and out total .... Stinger..? ? ? Try it the way it is? ? ?
I know there are folks on the board who have a better handle on this sort of S.W.A.G.(scientific wild *** guess) than I do so I'd appreciate some input.
Will

smittythewelder

01-23-2006, 02:16 PM

If you feel like getting rid of the scaly carbon, have your local auto machinist leave the pipes in his hot-tank over the weekend, assuming he has the hot caustic soda.

I haven't been around this game in far too long; is there really a lower unit nowdays that will stand up to those big twins?!!

The other thing that I'm wondering about from your pix is whether that towerhousing might twist significantly under full power. I think that's why a lot of towerhousings were made using a piece of chrome-moly tube in the middle. Bill Rankin once told me about watching a dyno run of a Mk75 at the Mercury factory, and that they measured an amazing amount of twist from bottom to top of the block.

Pretty work!!

will350

01-23-2006, 10:08 PM

If you feel like getting rid of the scaly carbon, have your local auto machinist leave the pipes in his hot-tank over the weekend, assuming he has the hot caustic soda.
That "scaley" looking stuff is some sort of expanded metal used to hold the muffling material in place . This is an "internally" silenced pipe. The only one I have ever seen.

I haven't been around this game in far too long; is there really a lower unit nowdays that will stand up to those big twins?!

I use stock 302 Yamato lower units with a LeeTietze nose cone . The only problems I've had were "self-induced".Bad line up and or tower flex. There is a pic of the "flexi-flyer" in the thread . It was the first one I made for a Polaris. With the F/C 340 , it was OK cause it only 35 or so HP but the L/C
ate couplers and input shafts. These "wide-footed" towers take care of that.
I have never had one of these go south internally in 5 years.The 3/16" shear pins are just barely enough.

The other thing that I'm wondering about from your pix is whether that towerhousing might twist significantly under full power. I think that's why a lot of towerhousings were made using a piece of chrome-moly tube in the middle. Bill Rankin once told me about watching a dyno run of a Mk75 at the Mercury factory, and that they measured an amazing amount of twist from bottom to top of the block.

Pretty work!!

I've gotten to where I like to make them reasonably attractive now because I know they'll work.
I'll be "off the air" for a bit. I had 14 teeth pulled this AM.Need some "recovery time" before I get back to this.
Will

Ron Hill

01-24-2006, 11:03 AM

Will, I read your posts everyday. I enjoy every word, please continue the SAGA of the "TOWERS"....Anytime you want anything polished, send it, I'll polish it for free and reutrn if no charge for freight also...

Keep us all up to date....The clutch is the future of PRO Racing...trust me!!! (Because, shore starts will be easy..or idle starts will be easy...)...

will350

01-26-2006, 04:02 PM

Thanks for the offer Ron,we'll see where this goes.
The latest in the SAGA consists mostly of "looking and thinking". I've emailed the outfit that made the clutch with a few questions and...... basically, have been blown off..... so I'm going ,probably,to massively infringe on their patent
rights and do "my own thing". I have a 340 Polaris with "add-on"reed valves.I"m thinking this would be a better choice for the cutch unit. It's been sort of stuck once(not to the screeching halt stage) so I'll have to pull it down and give it a good "look see". Have to make a new "water guard" for the thing as the plastic original fell to pieces when I tried to clean it up.
That's about it. I'll probably feel a little more "productive" after I get adjusted to this horribly uncomfortable mouth full of plastic...(ooowwwwwch)
Should be obvious from my reply to smitty the welder (reply mixed in quote) that I not quite myself yet.
Will

Will, I read your posts everyday. I enjoy every word, please continue the SAGA of the "TOWERS"....Anytime you want anything polished, send it, I'll polish it for free and reutrn if no charge for freight also...

Keep us all up to date....The clutch is the future of PRO Racing...trust me!!! (Becaues, shore starts will be easy..or idel starts will be easy...)...

smittythewelder

01-26-2006, 04:14 PM

Sorry you're hurtin'. At my age, I haven't "been myself" in years!!

650xs

01-26-2006, 08:48 PM

hi will,hope u get better soon ,me hate teeth and the parts that go with them!!!brave man havin them ole suckers out 10/10...... anyway i must congratulate u on such a fine thread ,;) i have been following with great interest,well done on pics and info,i like your style,.....once again its the nuts.. get well soon....john:D

RichardKCMo

01-27-2006, 12:27 AM

Thanks for the offer Ron,we'll see where this goes.
The latest in the SAGA consists mostly of "looking and thinking". I've emailed the outfit that made the clutch with a few questions and...... basically, have been blown off..... so I'm going ,probably,to massively infringe on their patent
rights and do "my own thing". I have a 340 Polaris with "add-on"reed valves.I"m thinking this would be a better choice for the cutch unit. It's been sort of stuck once(not to the screeching halt stage) so I'll have to pull it down and give it a good "look see". Have to make a new "water guard" for the thing as the plastic original fell to pieces when I tried to clean it up.
That's about it. I'll probably feel a little more "productive" after I get adjusted to this horribly uncomfortable mouth full of plastic...(ooowwwwwch)
Should be obvious from my reply to smitty the welder (reply mixed in quote) that I not quite myself yet.
Will
Read everything, though i'm in kcmo, sure look forward to what happens in yer' 'hood

will350

01-29-2006, 02:57 PM

In my "lucid" moments,I've been considering what other motors are available and suitable for what I do. I've put out"feelers" about Xenoah engines Just to see what might be available. So far I've located a couple. A 250cc L/C twin with 1 burnt piston(will probably need a complete going through) for $265 and an NOS 338cc L/C twin(no price on this as I got sort of "delete happy" and am trying to reconnect)
250 and 340 cc HO motors are around but not new as most manufacturers
have gone to "bigger is better" and while some still do make 340 stuff,it's mostly low output fan cooled. There are some really interesting new 4 stroke things,but being mounted horizontally with oiling systems designed for that,just makes them "really interesting. 660cc,intercooled-turbocharged,110HP........ Really interesting and would be really fun in an inboard but even if you could overcome the oiling issues for verticle use,weight would become a problem. 4 strokes are coming,it's just a matter of how long we're going to hang on to 2 strokes. For instance,in motocross circles,you're seeing more and more 4 strokes. Especially in 250 and open. Honda makes a 250 4 stoke that weighs the same as their 250 2 stroke with performance to match. 10 years ago you'ld have been laughed off the track with 4 stroke.... not quite as humorous today. If I ever become "wealthy" enough to do some of the things I'm thinking about...... The PRO catagory could be "veerrryyy interesting"
Did some "adjusting" on my plastic chompers.Don't know what the "denturist" is going to think about that........ but they "feel" better and I can get them in and out with out having to be on"drugs" and now they're are "merely" uncomfortable instead of bloody painful. Monday I go back for "adjustment" and temp.(I think)lining. They're not too bad now.Should be better then.
Toothless in Seattle....... Will

Jeff Akers

01-30-2006, 11:30 AM

I think you are on the money when you say that four strokes are coming, it's just a mater of time ! Heck In supercross they changed the name of the classes this year. In the past they were a "CC" designation, 125cc/250cc.

Now they just call it "Supercross" (250cc 2stroke/450cc 4stroke) and "Supercross LIGHT'S" (125cc 2stroke/250cc 4stroke)

I think your correct about the oiling problem, I think a boat mounted oil tank/cooler and a belt or gear driven pump is what we will see, kind of like what the sprintcar guys do(very little or no oil pan). It's going to take someone with the $$$ and the pains of trile and error to sort it all out.

I was not aware that Xenoah had larger engines than what they offer to the R/C guys. Keep us informed on how that turns out.

Good luck with your project and your new teeth:D

Great thread Will:cool:

Ron Hill

01-30-2006, 03:18 PM

Xenoah makes a great little 22 CC motor but?? Yes, KEEP US POSTED!!!

will350

02-01-2006, 06:46 AM

Did some surfing the other AM (somtimes I wake up in the "early" AM,like 2:15, and can't go back to sleep). "Just because",I Googled Xenoah.... It appears that Fuji manufactured the Xenoah sled motors for Rupp and Chapparel. When looked for "Zenoah",I came up with mostly R/C and Goped motors but then found Komatsu-Zenoah.Lawn and garden equip. and chainsaws....and ultralite engines. The G25 (a 22hp single) and the G50 (a 45hp opposed twin).
Alot of companies made snowmobile motors way back. Chrysler (134cc single 10hp,2 piece rod),Husqvarna(147cc single,10hp),OMC,Harley Davidson,Mercury,Kiekhaefer AeroMarine.... and everyone had a little different idea. CCW had reed valve case induction,OMC used some of their O/B parts(reed blocks,flywheel and electronics). The book I have doesn't come close to covering everything but it does give me "some" idea of the diversity.
Something else to chew on.......If I wanted to run 1100cch,I could legally run a 1.5(91ci) litre 4 stroke. In any of the PRO classes you're allowed to run 1.5 times the class limit as long as you conform ( 125 is 1 cyl. "C" service excluded) Showing up at DePue with a 20' 1100cch might be a little disconcerting for your competitors( a crane in the pits,for one thing....But then,you wouldn't be real worried about how rough it gets in turn 1.....)
Oh the possibilities....... Will

Xenoah makes a great little 22 CC motor but?? Yes, KEEP US POSTED!!!

Ron Hill

02-01-2006, 06:03 PM

There are more than 100 RUNNIG 45 SS POWERHEADS in Region 11 and 12. There are another hundred in boxes under benches...They are two cyclinder loopers, 45 cubic inch, but A. They are cheap B. Not too heavy C. Could be restricted by carb size

What are you a looking for???? I'm sure that a YAMATO FOOT would hand the power of these motors, especially if you run them on light boats....like hydros....

If you required 207 blocks, you could put motors together for about $85 each....

RichardKCMo

02-01-2006, 10:13 PM

will350

02-02-2006, 04:49 PM

The things I run over stock 302 units make about 60-70 HP at 8500-9000.
I haven't had any failures other than ones "induced" by my rather imprecise methods. They probably don't make much torque at that RPM but as HP is a function torque vs RPM,I can "get away with it" so to speak.
I "think" they'll handle alot more If you increase the "load event" time.
Practicle experience tells me that that you can exceed the calculated max load of almost anything IF you lengthen the "load event" The analogy would be the difference between "side slipping" the clutch in your car vs letting it out with the pedal to the metal. Side slipping puts an "immediate" load on the drive train where as "letting it out" lengthens the event and allows the drive train absorb and transmit the load over a longer period of time ( we're not talking seconds, more like milliseconds) I don't think a 302 foot would much like a 45 with a "hard" mechanical coupling because of the impulse load and the torque. However( if my theory is correct) if you put some sort of "absorbative" coupler in to lengthen the load event,it wouldn't surprise me too much that a 302 foot would handle far and away more torque load than anyone thinks. It also wouldn't surprise me if it would increase the life of any L/U and allow you to put way more through it than it's design parameters. It's just a theory but,logically,it makes sense to me.
Will

Make that STOCK Yamato Ron....... The PRO (hatchet) Yamato lower units don't seem to hold up all the well from what I've been hearing. D Mod seems to be the upper limit for units - anything with more torque than a 44 Merc they can't handle for long.

smittythewelder

02-02-2006, 05:03 PM

I talked to Sid Bass a few years back, and he was enthused about a plastic or composite driveshaft he had found, saying it would absorb some of the shock-loads. Are these in use now?

Ron Hill

02-02-2006, 05:47 PM

Not trying to beat a "DEAD HORSE', but we plan to run the Stock 45 powerheads on OMC "CLUB FEET" in Sport C. The reason for this CONCEPT is the fact that 45 SS has about 20 guys that come and race all the time and they all seem to have lots of parts....

If for some CRAZY reason we could use this powerhead or some of its pieces, it might make it cheaper for everyone to race. All the 45 guys have extra carbs, cranks, starters...Maybe, the motor is too big, too slow, too old...but I can say that they aren't really expensive to own...

If they proved too powerful, a restrictor plate could be used....

I'll offer my help on your own clutch design....help could include some CASH....Keep me posted...

How's the TEETH??? I got one on the right that is starting to give me pain....(Exact opposite of the one I had the root canal on two months ago....Of course, no dental insurance since I retired...)...

Here is part of my "STASH" of 45 parts...Mostly 207 blocks, here...

Ted March

02-02-2006, 06:41 PM

some dental insurance. It'll be well worth it if you intend to keep them.

will350

02-03-2006, 12:27 PM

Considering that I've only had them for a week and a half... Not bad at all.
Still quite bit of swelling and a few sore spots but I'm "commited" to having them and the "advantages" out weigh my previous condition by a factor of +10. I'm not sick all the time and I don't look like a skid row bum when I smile.
I might even start chasing women again....(slap me for that thought).
You're alot closer to Mexico so you might think about it. The place where I got my quote is outside of Tucson(sp?). Algodones.... 95% drug stores,Dr.s(all kinds) and Dentists.My quote for extractions and dentures was $1000. I paid 4 times that here but am glad I did cause it's only a 20 minute drive and he's willing to work with me.
Have figured out that I can't take them out when I go to bed cause I try to close my mouth too far and wake up in the AM feeling like I've been in a bar fight( both sides of my jaw hurt like heck). I have "graduated" from the blender to the grinder and found that I can chew pasta if I'm careful.they'll come around in time.
Smitty's question...... I think Sid does a "skinny" mid section on his drive shafts. Have seen this on production O/Bs.Big at the power head and L/u ends and about 50% less DIA in between. A "kind of OK" solution when you can R&R the drive shaft with out having to dis-assemble the whole thing. I feel like a coupler "might" be better.... Maybe a Lovejoy (I've seen things that are similar but have concave pockets to reduce the "edge" pressure and keep the insert from spitting out) or a fluid coupler at 95% lock-up. I think you could easily make a "shock absorbing"driveshaft but it wouldn't be cheap. On the other hand,balanced against the cost of a L/U and the extra longevity,it might be cheaper than the alternatives.
Will
P.S I agree with Ted. If I would have been a little "smarter",I wouldn't have a plastic smile now.

How's the TEETH??? I got one on the right that is starting to give me pain....(Exact opposite of the one I had the root canal on two months ago....Of course, no dental insurance since I retired...)...

John (Taylor) Gabrowski

02-03-2006, 06:46 PM

Some where in my wanderings in a grass drags snowmo pit about 6 years back I saw an interesting composite (cross shaft) driveshaft made out of what was supposed to be titanium that used some kind of compression spring that fought hard engagement to a cerain point and when compressed to a certain point that is where the shaft top and bottom were fully engaged for all out coupled drive. That shaft as the story on it went was a 800 unlimited fueler was to prevent the crossshaft twisting like some pretzel they did before and deliver all the power easier to the track and tunnel. That machine was pulling 118 mph on a 1/8th mile straight line track too. One of the fastest ones around and its engine was a custom build from the USA by the Whal Bros I do believe.

will350

02-07-2006, 02:27 PM

I haven't had much to do but "think" for few days... The "big blow" of "06"
ripped the service line off the meter mast and PSE just got to me today.(Thank all for that... now the folks next door will get off my case about not having water(It's a long story tha't mostly about politics and county revenue)
While I was sitting in the dark with my mind whirring along,it occurred to me that "somewhere" amongst my piles,I have the final drive out of an 1100cc Yamaha shaft drive.(have NO idea why i keep this sort of stuff....) It has a 90 degree gear set and..... a "shock absorbing" gizzy. "When" I find it( I know it's there) I'll post a picture.
Will

Some where in my wanderings in a grass drags snowmo pit about 6 years back I saw an interesting composite (cross shaft) driveshaft made out of what was supposed to be titanium that used some kind of compression spring that fought hard engagement to a cerain point and when compressed to a certain point that is where the shaft top and bottom were fully engaged for all out coupled drive. That shaft as the story on it went was a 800 unlimited fueler was to prevent the crossshaft twisting like some pretzel they did before and deliver all the power easier to the track and tunnel. That machine was pulling 118 mph on a 1/8th mile straight line track too. One of the fastest ones around and its engine was a custom build from the USA by the Whal Bros I do believe.

will350

02-10-2006, 12:57 PM

Well, so much for "knowing" where something is .... or thinking you know.
Those pieces have either jumped into another dimension..... or I threw them out in a cleaning frenzy. I'm going to do some "experimenting" with my camera and see if I can figure out how to do engineering sketches and turn them into jpegs that you can "see". That might help everyone to understand some of my
"unconventional thoughts" a little better.( A picture is worth 1000 words.......)
Anyway....I've been thinking that I should build a "comparative" dynomometer. "Testing on race day",well....It's a PAIN(frustrating too)
Not a bigtime full blown unit that tells you everything but the phase of the moon and prints it all out,just something really simple that I can use to do "relative comparisons" with. Right now it's all "seat of the pants". I was thinking I have a 1/2 drum of oil(I change my own)for a fluid medium and P/S
pumps (oil pumps also) will make 600-800 psi (a worn out hydraulic pump might be better,heavier duty anyway) ..... Figure out how you're going to drive it with valving so you can load it up(and your "plumbing"with a PSI gauge) And with a tach reading you'll be able to "see" the relative comparison of making a "change".
PSI vs RPM.It would make pipe selection a lot easier (would also make building pipes and adjusting just to fit that motor and what it likes a piece of cake) If you're a good "plug reader",setting up carburation would alot simpler.( you could put EGTs in there to take out some of the "guess work" and there are tons of other things you could do but this is a "tool" I can afford to "build"cheaply.)
I think it's well worth my time and effort(it's a "try and see" sort of thing,it won't be "perfect" right off........but then,you never know....)
Any one else have have any thoughts on this subject?
Will

Dago Fast

02-10-2006, 02:25 PM

Take two test wheels and machine them to max out at your required rpm. Use a inductive tach, like a Tiny Tach and then you can see the changes in
performance as you experiment. Very simple but effective.

Dago Fast

will350

02-11-2006, 12:05 PM

I have thought about that scenario.The issues are having a BIG tank( or going to the lake) and a "fixed load". It would take a bit of "experimentation"
to get your test wheel where you want to go. With this sort of thing I can control the load vs rpm. I can start it "no load" and bring it up. A little more thought and I "think" I can mount the pump so it will "roll" some. If I do it "right", I should be able to put an arm and a scale out there and come up with a "relative" torque reading.With that info,I can actually chart the curve.
Since what I "do" is so off the wall(and I can run these horizontally no problem),I think I can do a "one size fits all" sort of thing for these motors that will be fairly small and somewhat portable. And.... as it will be inside,my neighbors won't be subjected to the "wonderful sound" these make(although I'm pretty sure they'll still hear it, it won't be quite so obnoxious)
Will

Take two test wheels and machine them to max out at your required rpm. Use a inductive tach, like a Tiny Tach and then you can see the changes in
performance as you experiment. Very simple but effective.

Dago Fast

7500Blizzard

02-14-2006, 09:27 AM

If you want Rotax stuff there's still lots around all of the 340 440 and 521 bottom halves are the same and cylinders are out there along with heads. You might have a hard time finding many xenoah 250l/c's restoring rupp's is getting popular (allouette's too)..

7500Blizzard

02-14-2006, 09:28 AM

The cases listed above run from 78-85 maybe even a few of the newr with same case.

will350

02-15-2006, 09:10 AM

I put out some feelers on another site and found a couple 250s and 3 340s.The 250s need pistons and rings(probably some crank work too) and 1 of the 340s is an "NOS" never run "in the crate" but I'm pretty strapped for "extra money" right now so......(and I some how have lost that address)
I have 2 354s and a 454 Rotax but they all have that maddening Bosche
ignition with 2 of everything. I do have an ND ignition for Rotax but it's not a "bolt on" for the motors I have. The crank taper is too small and I'd have to do some machine work on the cases to get the stator to center right. I either have to get a whole later crank or a late ignition end of the crank and install it on mine. That might be the easiest and least expensive solution.
When it ran "right" , the Rotax was a rocket,"better" everywhere on the course than the Polaris but not as consistant.The Polaris(once I "figured" it out) was very reliable and consistant and tougher than John Wayne no matter how much you abused it.These are NOT the delicate and finicky things that most PRO motors are because of their "intended" use. No offense but I really wouldn't one of the current PRO motors in a rig that you're going to running off 50-60 miles into the wilderness. That doesn't mean Rotax and Polaris motors don't fail or break..... they're just not as likely to because their design parameters and their intended use. They're very,very robust motors.
Will

If you want Rotax stuff there's still lots around all of the 340 440 and 521 bottom halves are the same and cylinders are out there along with heads. You might have a hard time finding many xenoah 250l/c's restoring rupp's is getting popular (allouette's too)..

QUINAULTRACING

02-16-2006, 08:47 PM

WILL, Been thinking about driveshafts. Do you know if anyone has ever tried to use wire rope. Like the piece between 50 merc carbs or a speedometer cable but bigger. Ends could be put on very easily and if you used rope with the correct wrap, as you were putting power to the shaft it would try to unwind but as it tried to unwind it would try to get longer. With the shaft between the crank and drive shaft to the lower unit. It would limit how much it could unwind. Even better might be to run the wire rope say 7/8" inside 1" or 15/16" pipe to keep it from unwinding too much. It would not have to be attached to the ends to do the job. LATER..steve:)

Ron Hill

02-16-2006, 10:50 PM

I asked Will the same question last year....As Chad and I thought we could build and OUTBOARD like the K and B Model outboard...We actually were thinking of using the wring that holds up telephone poles... I'm trying to stay focused on only 40 projects, but I think it will work....and I was going to use a JET outboard drive....

will350

02-17-2006, 09:05 AM

This is another one of those things that runs through my brain at times.
If you look at weed eater cables,you'll see that they "wind up" when they"drive" the spool. They use tension to transmit load.They're specifically wound to transmit loads like that. They get shorter with more load,hence the slip couplers on the ends(keeps the end load off the motor). If you tried to turn them "backwards"( so to speak) instead of "pulling",you'd be "pushing" on the wires in the cable.Not saying that you"couldn't" do that but the inherent strength(and design strength) in cable(pretty near any cable) is all about tension and not "compression".
I think you could "do" this with wire rope,a "torque tube" and , let's say,"bushings". The trick is how you're going to handle the thrust and side load on the prop shaft. You're going to want the prop shaft to "stay still".No fore and aft movement. Means your "power head" end will have to float or you could "float" both ends(might be better). The amount of "bend" that you can pull off with this "idea".........? Probably one of those "trial and error" things.
The deciding factors are going to be how much deflection and what sort of friction loss you're going to encounter vs your cable size? There are some real benefits in a drive like this.None of those bloody expensive L/U gears to go TU for one and a smoother transmission of power cause the cable will have a tendency to "absorb" the impulses from the motor. You should be able to figure out couplers for both ends and they should hold up fairly well too cause of that "absorbtion factor". It will require a bit of R&D but it'll be inexpensive(once it's worked out) and it might even pass the PRO "drive" rules......(providing you don't "kill" the rest of the field first time out.That's sure to get it banned for eternity)
It's an ,all in all,doable thing and simple really(I use the "KISS" principle on everything),it's pretty much just a matter of "doing it"
Will

WILL, Been thinking about driveshafts. Do you know if anyone has ever tried to use wire rope. Like the piece between 50 merc carbs or a speedometer cable but bigger. Ends could be put on very easily and if you used rope with the correct wrap, as you were putting power to the shaft it would try to unwind but as it tried to unwind it would try to get longer. With the shaft between the crank and drive shaft to the lower unit. It would limit how much it could unwind. Even better might be to run the wire rope say 7/8" inside 1" or 15/16" pipe to keep it from unwinding too much. It would not have to be attached to the ends to do the job. LATER..steve:)

will350

02-20-2006, 04:47 PM

I ,obviously, have too much time on my hands..................
This is the way I "sort of" envision a really simple cable drive. Basically a smooth bore housing( appropiate wall thickness pipe),bent to the correct radius,skeg on the bottom. Propshaft afixed to the cable through 2 bearings to handle thrust and side load.The inner bushings are to keep the cable from "winding up" and spread out the friction points. After I got this drawing done,
I started thinking about "how" you were going to load them in the housing....
I think making them a ring would make it tougher (you have to figure they're going to have to slide over one end or the other and having cable to prop shaft-power head couplers ,that might be difficult) So...... after some thought, I think you could make them spherical and "split" them. That way you can load them on the cable as you slide it in the housing and they present more surface to the cable and less surface to the housing. That should have less friction than 3-4 times as many "rings". You might get away with a phenolic water lubricated bearing for the prop shaft and a water lubed phenolic thrust bearing. Really CHEAP and easy to R&R pieces in and out of.
Friction loss will depend on the size of the cable vs the amount of bend.
The smaller the cable you can get away with,the smaller the housing can be.
If 1/2" cable will handle the loads,you could probably get the overall width down to an inch or so. BIG BENEFIT compared to 2 1/2+ inches that you're usually dragging around.
So what do you think?
Will

John Smallin

02-20-2006, 06:34 PM

Will
Maybe looking at model engine exploded view will help. They have a teflon sleeve around the cable with square ends just like a speedometer cable. The thrust bushing at the lower end is fixed in place as are the bearings at the engine end. The housing is split lengthwise about the shaft. Go to www.mecoa.com/kb and click exploded view, cursor down to model 8907 or 8935 and click exploded view.
I couldn't figure out how to attach the file.
Regards
John

Ron Hill

02-20-2006, 06:35 PM

Does anyone but me remember what Tommy Lasoda answered when he was questioned about Dave Kingman's performance...there were 57 bleeps in a minute and fourty second tape...Tommy started out What the F&^*ing do you hink of his performance...

What do I think??? Will: I won't get BLEEPED out but but you are going to need more time when we start building these things by the thousands. I think your PERFORMANCE here has been amazing, your tower is awesome...and thing drive, with clutch, will be a screamer...

A. I will make any casting you need.
B. How much will this project cost? I will buy into it TODAY...
C There are air cooled HONDA FOUR STROKE VERTICAL SHAFT MOTORS of about 25-35 HP...Electric start... What do you think about a Honda for power????
D. I'll start building my FOAM BOAT NEXT week...

will350

02-20-2006, 08:25 PM

This what I ment when I said "spherical bushing". Easy to see that they suppor5t the cable really well and cut way down on the housing contact.
I don't think that a "K&B" sort of thing is feasable. I looked high and low for a "spiral wrapped" drive cable and no can find, I feel like a minimum DIA. would be 1/2"+ and we're going to be transmitting a LOT of power. I'm not sure if a "normal" steel cable will do but that's available in a variety of sizes and grades.
Will

Ron Hill

02-20-2006, 08:59 PM

Why won't that 1/2 cable holding telephone poles up work???? (Dipped in teflon)..

will350

02-20-2006, 11:07 PM

The galvinized cable used for guy wires is way different the cable you see on winches. It's design is for primary tensil. That is , it isn't meant to flex.You can break it if it's in a continual "flex" situaton. The steel is relatively soft when compared to the stuff in cable used on winches. Not as "springy",if you will.
The whole thought behind the "spherical" bushings is to "contain" the cable,to keep it from "growing" as the torque tries to make it shorter and keep it centered so it won't "wind up" and kink. Due to the power that it's going to transmit,it'll have to be very tightly controlled to keep any wind up out of it.
I don't think you can do that with a teflon tube. I just get the "feeling" the cable will wind up and only ride on the tube in a small number of places and ,due mainly to the "wind up", eat the tube up in short order.
I'm still thinking.......
Will

Why won't that 1/2 cable holding telephone poles up work???? (Dipped in teflon)..

Tom Mitchell

02-21-2006, 06:34 AM

John Smallin

02-21-2006, 02:31 PM

Will
You might look at www.sswt.com for info on cables. Lot of data on various sizes . Problem probably will be RPM capability.
John

will350

02-22-2006, 10:12 AM

A big "Thank You" to John. It would've taken me a month of "surfing" around with my ancient Mac on dial up. I did go there yesterday and did some
figuring and looking. Got so excited about the possibilities that I screwed up my post back to BRF. Since these are "real" flex cables,and all the data is "continuos duty", I think you can sort of throw out the rpm spec. I'd be willing to bet that some of this stuff is "milspec" ( which means that it's REALLY under-rated in the real world) The other thing to think about is "service life".
How long will it last? Until this gets built,I can't say. There are sure to be issues during R&D because there always are. But these are "real" flex cables and not a piece of wire rope. In that light, they'll be a lot easier to
"capture", the "wind up" won't be as severe and it appears that the company
has alreadt done the engineering on the output end(enough that some minimal
re-engineering may be all that I have to do,extra bearings etc.)
The beauty in all this is the simplicity of it. Propping it at 1 to 1 might be an adventure for some but for others not blowing out the side of the cases when the gears go south....(not having gears to go south!) Whether or not it would "pass muster" where you're running it will probably depend on what the "determining God of the Day" had for breakfast or the phase of the moon or some other thing like that. It'll be difficult to get this "accepted" just because
really "new" ideas are always met with resistance(IE,we don't do "things" that way,It's NOT "done" that way,we've never "done" it that way before,all the excuses I heard from Boeing when I was there and thought of a better way to do something)
This should work well. After looking at the data, it may be that for the BIG HP applications it's "iffy", but for some of the lower HP classes,this will work.
If we're worried about gear reduction...... you can always put a spur gear box under the powerhead where it's out of the way(and you can change the ratio) I "could" go on for a while but I'll stop............
Thank you Mr.Smallin(very much) Will

Will
You might look at www.sswt.com for info on cables. Lot of data on various sizes . Problem probably will be RPM capability.
John

Ron Hill

02-22-2006, 06:04 PM

If you used a Honda Four Stroke Generator motor (Or any other motor for that matter).., why not belt drive it, with different "Gear" ratois???

Of course, you'll have a clutch??

will350

02-23-2006, 10:09 AM

If you're using a motor that doesn't turn a ton(like a Honda),one of the stock clutches from Hilliard Corp. would do fine and they come in a few different configurations on the output side. single row and double row chain and single, double, and triple sheave pulley. If you could "gaurantee" that the belts and pulleys would stay dry, belts would work,if they got wet you might think you were driving a truck load of Canaries.
I have a set of drive snowmo clutches that I've been "looking" at. I've heard that they've been tried before and didn't do much more than burn up the belt. I "think" the reason for that is the "presented"load to them isn't solid(or constant). If you follow me,what I think happens is the drive clutch sort of "loses it mind" when the prop takes a bite,the rpms come down and it "shifts" to keep the revs up. The driven clutch is reactionary to the drive clutch so it does what the drive end tells it to in repect to rpm and load. If the prop load were absolutely constant,these would work fine. I think that the way to "get around" the issue would be to make the drive clutch "adjustable"in a way to lock it at a certain point to avoid shifting when the prop bites. If YOU could control it on the fly..... that would be even better.
You could run any wheel and tune the motor to it. These things are sort of "large" and the center to center distance is 15" or so, so having it all dangling out behind the boat might be kind of wierd. I have thought that you could put the motor inside the boat and run the belt over the transom and steer the foot(I've seen a steerable foot so I know it can be done). You'ld still be able to adjust the height and trim that way.You"ld have to set up the motor to run backwards(in my case) to get LH rotation at the wheel but 2 strokes will run either directon with timing changes.(I don't have any idea if electronic ignitions are going to like that.... maybe?) You could run a RH wheel(that gives you a sort of "broadslide" effect in the corners and will probably make them kind of "spinny")
How's that for an anwer?
Will

If you used a Honda Four Stroke Generator motor (Or any other motor for that matter).., why not belt drive it, with different "Gear" ratois???

Of course, you'll have a clutch??

Ron Hill

02-23-2006, 12:07 PM

Bringing a 102 foot to Lake XXX to give to Bill Boyes....

Left hand or right wouldn't be that big of a deal. Makr the transom high enough that the belts and DRIVER would stay dry and the boat would float with someone sitting in the back.

Tom Mitchell

02-23-2006, 03:22 PM

Interesting brainstorming Will and everyone. The clutch subject reminds me of something that I considered when 80 hp was tops and that was building a frame attached to the top of and Merc 800 mid section with a driveshaft extended up thru the center with a bearing at the top. This contraptaion would be tall enough to mount four or so 30 hp chainsaw or gocart engines in a staggerd radial fasion using a chain and sprocket connecting each engine to the driveshaft. I could never decide if it would need just one or two motors running a gocart clutch and the rest straight drive or all needing clutches. I wounder if noa would have alowed this in Unlimited II? It would almost have been worth the effort just to see the reaction when it was unloaded.
I think I can hear the laughing out there from here.

Tom

David Mason

02-24-2006, 10:25 AM

I think Steve Litzal got some similar reactions with his 1100cc engine a couple years back. I know I have seen some pictures on this website of some pretty radical looking rigs. I love seeing all that stuff, makes me belive inovation is never dead.

will350

02-24-2006, 06:28 PM

I'm sort of "in the twilight" of my life. My brain works OK but the rest of me has started to go down hill so I have alot of time to think about this stuff.
There's an outfit in Cal. that builds these tiny little 4 cylinder motors out of weed eater parts. You can get it in 25cc,30cc or 35cc cylinders times 2,3 or 4.
The things make roughly 30hp @ 140cc and turn some astromonical rpm.
There isn't enough room under the flywheel for more ignition or they'ld have more cylinders. Coupling them wouldn't be hard.........but think about "tuning" them and ALL those tiny little expansion chambers.... ("Porquipine-esque" ?)
11 100cc units= a screaming 1100cc motor............. 44 carbs,44 plugs and 44 chambers!
What am I thinking?It'd be a thoroughly terminal headache to get it TO run and probably worse to KEEP it running. It would be interesting though.
See.......... I have waaaaaaayyyyyy to much time to "think".
Will

Interesting brainstorming Will and everyone. The clutch subject reminds me of something that I considered when 80 hp was tops and that was building a frame attached to the top of and Merc 800 mid section with a driveshaft extended up thru the center with a bearing at the top. This contraptaion would be tall enough to mount four or so 30 hp chainsaw or gocart engines in a staggerd radial fasion using a chain and sprocket connecting each engine to the driveshaft. I could never decide if it would need just one or two motors running a gocart clutch and the rest straight drive or all needing clutches. I wounder if noa would have alowed this in Unlimited II? It would almost have been worth the effort just to see the reaction when it was unloaded.
I think I can hear the laughing out there from here.

Tom

John (Taylor) Gabrowski

02-25-2006, 07:54 PM

I was staring at a pile of those air conditioning electric (12 volt) engaging compressor clutches and I figured I would pop the question??? Have you ever seen the innards and workings of the various versions of those and in that, would they be of any use cut all up to useable size to horsepower applications and engines like these???

will350

03-01-2006, 10:38 AM

I was going to go the the SOA "oldtimers" meeting last night but had a very early AM call I had to be here for so...............
Got this from my brother this AM. This is something that Dwight Malhiot did about 25 years ago. Since I wasn't there to actually "see" it,I'm not positive,but I think it's a Kawasaki 500cc triple with W/C heads and a belt driven Mercury ignition.
I was ,at one time, a service manager for a Kawasaki dealership and in their day,Kawasaki triples(250,350,500,750 2 strokes) were pretty near "untouchable" on the street in stock form and could be really scarey when modified.
I contacted SSwhite in regards to their flex shafts yesterday. Am hoping to hear something from them. We will see.
Will

7500Blizzard

03-11-2006, 09:14 AM

Will if you tried the clutch setup and got to stay dry and tuned properly it shouldn't eat belts that bad, a champ sled spins about 10500rpms clutch engages about 7800rpms with a couple hundred 1" or larger pics in the track and i can guarantee there's not a prop in the world that will bite harder that that.

will350

03-13-2006, 10:14 AM

Ken, It's not a matter of belt slippage. The drive clutch is regulated by RPM and the driven clutch is reactionary ( pretty sure that you know that but I'm putting that in for folks who don't) Propellers don't present the same constant load to the clutch as a track on a snowmobile. When the prop bites,the RPMs come down and the drive clutch "shifts" and the driven clutch reacts and shifts. The motor spins up because of the shift but the prop slows down and you lose the bite then it "shifts" again.
Then,because of the shift, the prop ventilates and starts the whole process over again. One of those "vicious circle" deals. If you do manage to get it going every time the prop comes out and the motor spins up some, the clutch "wants" to shift and,because of the "time" factor,it can't keep up with what's happening at the prop end. I'm pretty sure that's why folks who have tried this gave up(and I have "heard" that it's been tried before and about all that happened was lots of sceaming belt sounds)
I feel if you can control the driven clutch(becuase you're "smarter" than it)
this will work and you can run just about any prop because you can "change gears". I have couple of driven clutches that I look at and "ponder" over every so often trying "see" how I can do this. I think it can be done and the results will be well worth the effort,it's just going to take a little time and thought.
There will be some extra weight and and a really different "looking" unit and a lot of "what the heck is that thing?" but I'm used to that.
Will

Will if you tried the clutch setup and got to stay dry and tuned properly it shouldn't eat belts that bad, a champ sled spins about 10500rpms clutch engages about 7800rpms with a couple hundred 1" or larger pics in the track and i can guarantee there's not a prop in the world that will bite harder that that.

will350

03-17-2006, 09:10 AM

After a couple phone calls and failed email attempts, I finally got through to SS White Technologies (the flex shaft folks). Unlike Hilliard corp. ( the clutch people who totally blew me off), they're happy to talk to me and consider my idea about a flex cable drive. I sent a couple Jpegs to them yesterday(1 of the rotax and the rather crude sketch that I posted here) and a rough explaination of what I'm up to. This AM I got a reply, the jist of which is , they're going to assign this to someone for evaluation and get back to me in a few days. You have no idea how refreshing it is to be treated this way as a "one man show" vs a "mega corp.". This could be a very interesting turn of events...
Will

Dan M

03-17-2006, 04:54 PM

Will,

Good luck with the flex shafts. I've been thinking about the "clutch" situation that you have discussed in previous posts. Snowmobile clutches typically respond the way that you mentioned. The primary engages and the secondary allows the "upshift". I can see why this is a problem with the prop loading and unloading, causing the secondary to shift back and forth. It got me thinking about how other variable drives handle the speed or gear ratio changes. Because the snomobile type secondary is actuated by spring pressure and helix angle, you're trying to balance the load on the track with the power output of the motor. On a sled this works very well because the load from the track is almost constant. The grip of the track pretty much stays the same thru the shifting range. In the boat scenario, the prop doesn't give the consistant load to the clutch, and it is constantly searching for the best ratio. Could the secondary be set up in such a way that it is only allowed to shift via a cam type action? Think throw out bearing and fork setup to allow the sheaves to move. No springs or very light duty. Mechanically set the distances that the sheaves can move. That way, the primary acts as the "squeeze " to the belt, and the ratio will only shift if it is allowed to by letting the secondary open up via mechanical means. It's not like we need another pedal in the boat or anything, but you could set up a low/high arrangement with a pedal in the boat. Start the motor, the primary is disengaged. Set the secondary to "low gear" by pushing the pedal, and bring up the R's to engage the primary. Boat jumps up on plane in low gear and accelerates to max motor rpm. Gently release the pedal, and the primary will shift out to where ever the secondary allows the ratio to go.

It's Friday and it's been a long week. My mind may have missed something, but Ron sounds like he really wants the clutch thing to work. My $.02

Good luck with all the projects.

Dan:rolleyes: :confused:

RichardKCMo

03-17-2006, 07:58 PM

I was wondering if anyone remembers that Buick had what was called a dynaflush/flow trans., just think those wonderful cars will be made by foriegners now.
I 'm not mechanical, just a thought.
Richard F.

7500Blizzard

03-17-2006, 08:51 PM

I still think you could get a clutch system to work if set up right check out a sno-x sled there air as much or more than they're on the ground and they don't have too much troouble with all the shifting. Or set it up with a 1 1/2- 2'' pulley on the shaft and a long travel tensioner to make up the size diff from the secondary.

will350

03-19-2006, 08:46 AM

Dan,
An altogether excellent thought. I've been sort of "stuck"on the thought of controlling the drive clutch while allowing the driven clutch to "do it's thing".
This new perspective,in the form of feedback, is more "doable" than what I had in mind. Looking at the problem from this angle,The simple and easy thing to do is not even worry about the shifting business but modify the clutches so that ,say, the drive clutch comes in at 4000 and the driven clutch can only open to a "given" point which would be adjustable to change the ratio. The rational here is that,with a low enough engagement speed on the driven side,
when the wheel bites, it won't shift as radically as it would with normal driven clutch. Added to that the more RPM,the more belt tension. Another plus is having the belt to absorb the impulse loads to the foot. Experience has shown me that you can run alot more load when the load is "damped" or added gradually(so to speak)
When it comes to being the "sharpest tack in the box" I'm fairly
"pointy", but there's always someone with a view that I didn't or couldn't "see" that puts a new light on the subject. I always appreciate FEEDBACK!
Whether it's negative or positive... I always appreciate it.
Thanks Dan,your input has set off a whole new approach to solving the issue of making this work.
Will

[QUOTE=Dan M]Will,
Could the secondary be set up in such a way that it is only allowed to shift via a cam type action? Think throw out bearing and fork setup to allow the sheaves to move. No springs or very light duty. Mechanically set the distances that the sheaves can move. That way, the primary acts as the "squeeze " to the belt, and the ratio will only shift if it is allowed to by letting the secondary open up via mechanical means.

smittythewelder

03-23-2006, 02:27 PM

FYI, Dwight's triple is a Kawasaki 500, built not very long after that bike hit the States, by Jim Hallum for Cliff Kelley. My recollection is that it had some new engine tuning issues, and never turned into the Konig-eater that was hoped for. I believe it had very little time on it when Dwight got it. He may have built the pipes that you see, as Hallum's original set was stolen.

will350

03-25-2006, 07:21 AM

That's interesting. If it's one of the early ones, it would've come with CDI (a rather obnoxious set up prone to failure in the strangest ways and very expensive at the time) The 72 and up (250,350,500) were 3 sets of points except the 750. When they were set up "right" and properly maintained, they were fine units.( Had one that went 15K on a set of points and plugs) What I remember mostly about them were the huge insurance rates for the 500-750.
I worked for the Kawasaki northwest "crank station" in the mid 70s. If there were any "issues" with any of the new stuff, it came to us to be diagnosed and rectified.For instance , the early KZ900 that ran fine cold but went south warm. Not enough valve stem clearance. Or the "new" KD125 that would sieze
at 1/4 throttle light loads. We finally "cured" that by reshaping the needle.
I don't suppose you can remember just what the tuning issues were with it?
Will

FYI, Dwight's triple is a Kawasaki 500, built not very long after that bike hit the States, by Jim Hallum for Cliff Kelley. My recollection is that it had some new engine tuning issues, and never turned into the Konig-eater that was hoped for. I believe it had very little time on it when Dwight got it. He may have built the pipes that you see, as Hallum's original set was stolen.

Dogboy

03-25-2006, 05:52 PM

You are right about that Kaw CDI
The outer part of the flywheel exploded
This was years after they were obsolete.
Never did get the parts to repair it to stock.
Put a suzuki point system in it instead.

The chambers on mine looked alot like the ones on the outboard pic

will350

04-21-2006, 09:05 AM

I've been real quiet for a while due to a "delicate" operation in March that may solve an issue involving running a laydown boat. I "sort of" got too carried away the day after and added a few extra weeks to my recovery
time but things are coming around well enough that I can get back to it now.
I still have some pipe work (mounting and modding) and I'll be making a transom extension for a D Mod that one of my friends has for testing
purposes. It should a fair match for these as they weigh about 105 lbs. give or take a bit. I have 2 wheels that we bought from Ron that have never been run and a couple that are "known quantities" to compare.
Our "test lake" is inside a reservation and the tester lives there so no problems about noise or speed. There might be some debris but if the weather cooperates a little, that shouldn't be a problem either.
Haven't heard a peep from sswhite on my "flex shaft" drive proposal and am getting sort of "testy" about it. It's been about a month since I emailed them and no response. I'll try them again today ( tongue firmly clenched between "teeth") and see what happens.
I'll keep you all "informed" on my results and if any one has suggestions on how to deal with a large company as an individual , email me , this is frustrating.
Will

Lee Tietze

04-25-2006, 05:22 PM

Will,

From one craftsman to another...

Here are some photos of my latest tower. I just finished several of these for racers in Region 10 & 11.

The tower alone starts out as a 43 lb billet of aluminum. 8 hrs later, the complete swivel, clamp and tower assembly weighs 22 lbs, and it's just under 6 inches tall. Will fit Yamato and Konig gear cases with no adapter plates. Just a sample of what you can do when you have power steering on your drill press..

Some photos...

Lee Tietze
Machined Components
Aluminum, Try Racing Without It!

will350

04-29-2006, 09:47 AM

Another stunning creation from Canby Oregon... Why am I NOT surprised at the quality of design and workmanship... Probably because I've known Lee for some time and seen alot of his creativity "up close and personal".
His influence on what I do comes from one of his early "bolt together" D Mod towers that I saw at Devil's Lake. The hardware that I make for my own boats has a certain amount of inspiration based on Lee's work. And,on top of that,he's a thoroughly likeable person... ( a rare thing nowadays,IMO)
Power steering on my "drillpress"..... The only thing here with power steering is the dirty S-15 which STILL has a broken clutch diaphram.
The only problem for me with having a piece of equipment like Lee's would be having to beg him for an apprenticeship to learn how to operate it properly. (from here to the grave "might" be enough time)
Will

Fast Fred

05-09-2006, 09:03 AM

:cool: aussum stuff:cool:

John (Taylor) Gabrowski

05-24-2006, 11:54 AM

Beautiful work with yur powerful and full adjustable moving bed and head drill press! :) LOL! How much are you selling these lovies for $ you are making?

will350

08-29-2006, 09:28 AM

I took the clutch unit to Eatonville for a "new" driver to run(Al Benson).
Of course I put the"curse" on myself by NOT taking another power head or motor and telling myself (and others)"This thing is sooo dependable and reliable that I don't need to". It started first pull on the cart after two years on the rack(sounded just fine) It started first pull for the heat(sounded just fine and it looks like the lighter clutch will get off on it's own). Just before it took a bite, it quit. Inspection revealed that the top plug was gray and flat.
Apparrently the "Hong Kong" piston in that hole decided it was time to break off the skirt on the exhaust side.(I bought these at a swap meet for $40 new,
that'll teach me something about the phrase "OEM") New OEM pistons and rings are on the way for that one.(it didn't hurt the bores and the bearings seem OK) My driver was and is pretty pumped up in spite the rather less than satisfactory performance so...... We're going to Lawrence with everything I have. Since we get a "TEST" day I'll be able to find out just what the "new" motor does with different pipes and so on.
I "had" to paint the boat because that oak decking (as pretty as it was)
had started "sprouting" little sticky things all over. White is good.Orange trim is good. The top looks better than the bottom so today (or tomorrow) I'll turn it over and take care of that.As a note of interest,I used gloss white LATEX on the deck and am very impressed with the result but I will do the bottom with oil based enamel.
Stay tuned.... this could be "very interesting"
Will

Roy Hodges

08-29-2006, 10:04 AM

Lee Tietze

08-29-2006, 05:13 PM

Ray,
Yes I do offer one to fit the OMC 3 Cylinder, It looks very similar to the D mod in the pictures. The only difference is an adapter plate to attach the power head to the tower. Its the same swivel and clamp assembly.
Price $950.00

will350

09-13-2006, 10:51 AM

Well. I could say "Oh rats and mice" about my weekend and do nothing but complain,but..... Friday testing was a struggle mostly because I'm so out of "practice" and I've never run the Polaris on my boat so the set up was a SWAG. However after seizing the "new" motor on the cart(I "think"?) I put the clutch unit on it. It's a really good thing that Dale Bartley was there to point out that I should tighten the prop nut and the plugs ( I did put the shear pin in and the the plug wires were on and,in my defense,I figured out that there weren't plugs in the boat before someone else did before it sank.) Inspite of all this "chinese fire drill" stuff, we finally managed to get it off the beach and on the course. It was a pleasant surprise to see it actually fly and buzz along at 75 or so ( this thing is a real barn door, big and heavy, and has never flown at less than 90)
In the mean time,we had come to decsion that Al should run Dale's C boat
instead of mine for a variety of reasons(getting him a "good ride" being the most important.)
Al got his "first-first" in C mod Saturday. Doug Reeds 250 went south in the first heat and since he had driven 250 miles or so to race,he asked me if he could run my unit on Sunday. I told him it wasn't very fast because I hadn't been able to try anything (welcome to the big top) but it would start and finnish both heats(I was fairly confident about that)
Well,surprise,surprise! ! ! Due to some fortuitous gun jumping by the really fast folks ( Bill Diamond and Jon Steen) and being able to fend off the "Queen of the 350s"(Kay Meyers-Brewer) Doug got his "First-First" in an SOA
race and it FINALLY convinced me that I need a new boat.
The clutch unit showed me enough to know that with the right set up , it will get off on it's own and that a new boat will be worth 10mph by itself.
The "new motor" ????? Well,I'll pull it down and "see" what happened but the ignition is going to be changed out even if I have to give up the recoil.
Will

I took the clutch unit to Eatonville for a "new" driver to run(Al Benson).
Of course I put the"curse" on myself by NOT taking another power head or motor and telling myself (and others)"This thing is sooo dependable and reliable that I don't need to". It started first pull on the cart after two years on the rack(sounded just fine) It started first pull for the heat(sounded just fine and it looks like the lighter clutch will get off on it's own). Just before it took a bite, it quit. Inspection revealed that the top plug was gray and flat.
Apparrently the "Hong Kong" piston in that hole decided it was time to break off the skirt on the exhaust side.(I bought these at a swap meet for $40 new,
that'll teach me something about the phrase "OEM") New OEM pistons and rings are on the way for that one.(it didn't hurt the bores and the bearings seem OK) My driver was and is pretty pumped up in spite the rather less than satisfactory performance so...... We're going to Lawrence with everything I have. Since we get a "TEST" day I'll be able to find out just what the "new" motor does with different pipes and so on.
I "had" to paint the boat because that oak decking (as pretty as it was)
had started "sprouting" little sticky things all over. White is good.Orange trim is good. The top looks better than the bottom so today (or tomorrow) I'll turn it over and take care of that.As a note of interest,I used gloss white LATEX on the deck and am very impressed with the result but I will do the bottom with oil based enamel.
Stay tuned.... this could be "very interesting"
Will

will350

09-14-2006, 06:25 PM

I think so.I have a set of Karelsen plans I got from Ed with hand notations on changes to make. Bassically add 4" to the afterplane and lean the transom back to 25 degrees instead of 15.
I'm not sure that an 82" afterplane in enough,so some input from the board would be good. These are D plans from 1980 and as much as I trust Ed to know his stuff,I'm shooting for 100+ and the O/A will only be 10'4". That just seems really small to me(but then ,the thing I have now probably had several sets of oarlocks as original equipment)
Does any one else think this might be a bit too short?
Will

Will,

Are you going to build your own boat too? (Wouldn't surprise me if you did.)

Lee Tietze

09-14-2006, 07:48 PM

John (Taylor) Gabrowski

09-14-2006, 09:47 PM

I put a rebuilt Quincy C Alky Flathead on a C-Mod Hemp and I thought being a 200 lb ruffian I would hold it all down. At just over 10+ feet, what happened next was downright scary, there was no way of holding it at that length anywhere without the sponsoss levering up over 2 ft off the water with a 1 hole kick under before you realized it and turned white! You thinking of a 340 Polaris on 10 ft 6 inches!! I will send you my white and yellow spray paints !! LOL!

I started mapping and cutting the aluminum stock to make versions of your towers for snowmo applications engines. So far managed to trip breakers doing that too many times and have to rewire to deal with the heavier electrical loads a 15 amp service can't handle. The local snowmo graveyard has some neat stuff but all the best stuff and there are mountains of it are pulled and tagged but NOT inventoried, if you could believe that! So its look and look and look and more look! People are asking questions too and I am saying nothing because they are reputed to become very greedy, very fast! :)

will350

09-16-2006, 10:01 AM

Well,now I am in the indecisive mode... When I got the plans from Ed,I explained that I wanted it to be "good" to 100. I think I'm going to have to go and visit Ed again. The motors I run are anything but "lightweights".
They're about D stock weight( + or - a few pounds) so building something that "has" to have a light motor to perform is not going to work for me.
However,I may have enough material to build a boat and 3/4s(I'll have to study on this a bit) and if that's the case,building one to Ed's specs and "something else" may be how this is going to go. The D boat that I originally ran these on was a wonderful little thing,no surprises and very sensitive to position, but then the best I ever did was 73 with a bone stock 302 lower which is probably close to the limit of a stock case.I know that with the nose cone,there will a pretty fair jump in speed.
I may go to the drawing board myself on this,but will probably need more input. Don't want to blow my meager funding and time on something that will wind up being a warm glow for a beer drinking party.
Any thoughts,ideas are more than welcome.
Will

Will,
With those intended speeds, you'll need around 90" - 92" afterplane. 60" sponsons and your overall lengtht will be around 12'6" With the light weight engines, 35" or 36" wide bottom would work fine.

Regards
Lee

MN1

09-16-2006, 03:59 PM

More power is good!
http://www.aaenperformance.com/V4_racing_engine.asp
Mark N

Mark75H

09-16-2006, 04:04 PM

More power is good!
http://www.aaenperformance.com/V4_racing_engine.asp
Mark N Oh, yeah! can you say instant 1100cc runabout motor?

Skoontz

09-16-2006, 05:26 PM

I think I'm going to order one of those for my ATV for dessert season!

7500Blizzard

09-18-2006, 01:42 PM

215hp out of a 800cc 4cyl is not the impressive They make that much with a 2cyl 800 mod and race it all day long.

will350

09-20-2006, 02:39 PM

While I'm pondering the boat thing..... I got to thinking about the ignition on my Rotax. Right now it has a "2 of everything" Bosche set up.2 coils,two triggers and an adjustable stator(so are the triggers) the interupter for the triggers is a round piece of 1/2" plate bolted to the flywheel.Needless to say,there is a bunch of reciprocating weight.
Now,right off I realize how archaic points systems are,but there is some rational behind this. My line of thought is that a points setup in a V8 fires 20,000 times @ 5,000 rpm and if I do the Polaris thing(both fire at once) then
my points are only going to have to carry a little more than half that.
With no advance or high rpm retard,it won't as "good" as it could and it might bite your arm off without some sort of retard(I can "do" something about that) I'll have to carry a battery but then I'll lose enough in the flywheel and trigger plate to offset the extra. So..... Am I way off on this
or does this sound promising?
Will

Tim Chance

09-21-2006, 06:26 AM

Will,
With those intended speeds, you'll need around 90" - 92" afterplane. 60" sponsons and your overall lengtht will be around 12'6" With the light weight engines, 35" or 36" wide bottom would work fine.

Regards
Lee
I agree on the boat size. I have built several boats and driven many times where the boat was overpowered (or maybe the power was underboated). You're going to have to be over 12' to be ok in the 100 mph range. Plus the boat will need a proper ratio of the length of the sponson to the length of the boat. The worse boat I ever had, while its length was ok, had sponsons that were too short. It would drop a sponson, which would then act as a fulcrum and the tail of the boat would come up and around like a big lever. It put the previous driver in the hospital and out of racing. When it did it to me - fortunately I didn't get cut or hurt - I took the hardware off and used for firewood. So my advice is stay away from sponsons that are too short and pick a length that is suitable to the expected speed.

JohnsonM50

09-22-2006, 06:41 PM

Roy Hodges

10-17-2006, 12:44 AM

Roy,
Yes I do offer one to fit the OMC 3 Cylinder, It looks very similar to the D mod in the pictures. The only difference is an adapter plate to attach the power head to the tower. Its the same swivel and clamp assembly.
Price $950.00

Question; will a Bass lower unit bolt on, without alterations ?

Lee Tietze

10-17-2006, 08:40 PM

I can machine the tower to fit any gearcase. The bass case has the same bolt pattern as the Konig, Konny and Rossi gearcases. If you change your mind, you can always add a 1/2" thick adapter plate to fit anything else.

Regards
Lee Tietze

Machined Components
Aluminum, Try Racing Without it!

will350

10-19-2006, 12:17 PM

After a fair amount of thinking about it,I've decided to copy the boat I have with some changes. Lengthen the after plane some(86" now)lengthen the sponsons to "match",change the nontrips to more of an inboard style and maybe the sponsons too(I will definately make them "round nosed).
I'm probably going to actually HAVE to draw this out as I don't think I can do the "cut and try"method that I use on my towers.
The boat runs pretty fair now and it's a temptation just to copy it as it stands but.....This may turn out looking like Holmbergs D stock Jones but I could live with that.
Will
'

Well,now I am in the indecisive mode... When I got the plans from Ed,I explained that I wanted it to be "good" to 100. I think I'm going to have to go and visit Ed again. The motors I run are anything but "lightweights".
They're about D stock weight( + or - a few pounds) so building something that "has" to have a light motor to perform is not going to work for me.
However,I may have enough material to build a boat and 3/4s(I'll have to study on this a bit) and if that's the case,building one to Ed's specs and "something else" may be how this is going to go. The D boat that I originally ran these on was a wonderful little thing,no surprises and very sensitive to position, but then the best I ever did was 73 with a bone stock 302 lower which is probably close to the limit of a stock case.I know that with the nose cone,there will a pretty fair jump in speed.
I may go to the drawing board myself on this,but will probably need more input. Don't want to blow my meager funding and time on something that will wind up being a warm glow for a beer drinking party.
Any thoughts,ideas are more than welcome.
Will

will350

12-18-2006, 04:40 PM

I present,for your consideration,9 and 3/4 pounds of Rotax ignition....
The flywheel by itself weighs almost 7 pounds.I'll give you one guess as to where all this is going to go.I'm not going to use the "traditional"wet cell battery for this.Instead I'm probably going to run some sort of dry cell pack.
Maybe lithium ions.It won't have the best and finest of "advance curve technology",but the set up I'm thinking about should do the job.Simple,easy to time and maintain,and really inexpensive.Besides that,I get to shed 10+ lbs
by the time I get through chopping off some of the housing.
Stay tuned ,I'll keep you posted.
Will
(I guess I'll just have to post a picture when this thing will let me)

While I'm pondering the boat thing..... I got to thinking about the ignition on my Rotax. Right now it has a "2 of everything" Bosche set up.2 coils,two triggers and an adjustable stator(so are the triggers) the interupter for the triggers is a round piece of 1/2" plate bolted to the flywheel.Needless to say,there is a bunch of reciprocating weight.
Now,right off I realize how archaic points systems are,but there is some rational behind this. My line of thought is that a points setup in a V8 fires 20,000 times @ 5,000 rpm and if I do the Polaris thing(both fire at once) then
my points are only going to have to carry a little more than half that.
With no advance or high rpm retard,it won't as "good" as it could and it might bite your arm off without some sort of retard(I can "do" something about that) I'll have to carry a battery but then I'll lose enough in the flywheel and trigger plate to offset the extra. So..... Am I way off on this
or does this sound promising?
Will