What The (boat-racing) World Needs Now...

[Danny McManus]

Hi All,
First let me thank my friends Ron and Ted for creating this forum. I hope everyone had enough to eat for Thanksgiving, I KNOW I did!!! I've noticed over the few years since the creation of the internet, that info is plentiful.
When I read the numerous posts from our 'tribal elders" :) it is plain to see that there have been times in our liftimes when boat racing was much more popular than it is currently.When I proudly accepted the assignment to develope the new OPC Super-Sport class, the outpouring of support and encouragment was unprecedented. If only 1/2 of the men that enthusiastically
requested info. in the 2000 season had "signed-up", there would be over 100
liscenced drivers with equipment. As it stands now, I get the feeling of an "open-wheel racers vs. nascar racers " behavior, that is to respectfully say that since the Super-Sport boats are a back to basics format, that the racers in other classes do not appreciate the new drivers in Super-Sport as they simply show up and race without spending most of there time at the race site working on their engines...These new drivers come from a variety of backgrounds, some used to race stock outboards, some ran older OPC classes (sport-G, Mod VP, J-production,etc.), some were outboard drag racers, and some never raced any boats at all. All these new recruits share the desire to get out on the racecourse and be part of the action, some are fiercly competitive and some are content to run wide, stay out of trouble, but happy to be able to keep up with the pack and stay on the lead lap. All I ask is that some of the influential men in other regions of the country recognise this and keep in mind that from these new recruits, some of the faster, more "pure-race-bred" classes will have new participants from which to harvest new drivers from. Also please keep in mind that (with regard to the open-wheel vs./nascar mindset) , if all out performance and speed on the racecourse was the most popular way to go, Television production of IRL and CART races would not have to pan past relatively empty grandstands durring their events...and that the OPC MOD-U class would be our largest class for participants....Could it be that we need to pool our collective intellectual resources and figure out a way to admit that it is allright to pointout that the
glory days of OPC racing took place at a time when top speeds were lower and the boats were more evenly matched, and more manageable or "raceable"Thanks for your time, I appreciate your replies.
Respectfully,
Danny
Super-Sport #8 :D :D

[Danny McManus]

:) ..it was the APBA convention in Bilouxi, Missisippi. We had arranged to bring
four turnkey Super-Sport boats for display, and we did!! they were ready and gassed up, available for demo rides, but the weather did not cooperate. We made up the free time by hangin' out in the hospitality rooms and havin' fun :D :D . To this day Ron has not gotten to take a single lap in a Super-Sport boat. Maybe with Mr. March's help, together we can get him in one durring the 2005 season, plenty of time ahead for that!!! These boats are faster than most would believe, and have very good acceleration too!!! Most men I've tlaked with agree that , in many of our current OPC classes, the high performance levels of todays equipment exceeds the ability of some of the participants, that is, the boat can go faster than the driver is willing to push it. In a well set-up Super-Sport boat, most drivers can push the boat to its performance limit without getting to far "over their head" at least not so far that they get wet...

[Ron Hill]

I think you should allow 200 HP/225 HP 2006 motors in Super Sport and have a Division II using the powerhead rules of Formula 150. If the speeds in Divison II get too fast, require a transom height... I just think the lack of speed in Super Sport has hurt it. Essentially, I'm suggesting combining 2006 engines with a watered down Mod VP... Run them together, score them as two classes....

I might also suggest that the class adopt a GENTLEMEN'S approach to the Over lap rule. Maybe, adopt UIM's where you maintain your lane in the corners...

Run the 150's as Division III...

When MOD VP went 90 we had 40 plus entries at Havasu. At a hundred to a hundred and five, we hurt and killed people...

1980, I ran a 21 foot Eliminator, 235 Evinrude, 35 entries, four hour race, I finished 4th, and I could only see 78 on my Keller. My 11'6" D Stock Hydro, BeZoats would run 76 MPH on the same Keller... Within three years, everyone ran over the 100 MPH mark!!!

[Danny McManus]

...Super-Sport boats are fast enough , the only guys who say we should runbigger engines are ones that have yet to compete in one with the current 150 H.P. engines. Every guy that says they would like to race at higher speeds can run SST120, Formula 150, Champ, or Mod-U. This year there weren't enough Mod-U boats to make a full field at the Nationals, a man with a formula 150 boat stepped up to fill the class but crashed in an early heat race...

[Ron Hill]

All the tunnel classes are too fast and too expensive to the average dude...

I have two or three V-6 Mercury motors that would be legal Formula 150 powerheads, but to run the class you need a $4,500 gearcase and special mid sections...

Open Super Sport up to more power and more noise! What can it hurt?

[march3stv]

- 200 HP 2006 Stock motors
- Exhaust Relief allowed
- Nose cones allowed
- Maybe, low water p/u?????? I could go either way on this one...

Danny -
- What is the current SS weight rule?
- What top end mph range are you guys seeing today with the 150's?
- What seems to be the prop pitch of choice by the top contenders?

Thanks

[Danny McManus]

Hello Scott,

1600 pounds weight, 80 mph plus or minus depending on course, and the new four blade overhub with the yamaha style blades in the 25" to 28" pitch area..

[Bruce Washburn]

I would agree with Ron on the motors. A little more speed and noise would not hurt things at all. The format Ron is talking about may also reduce the cost of racing the class. Super sport got off to a good but there seems to be declining interest and boat counts at the races. In the first couple years the MFG's supported the class with engines to a degree and you could take an old Mod VP. STV, Vision, Allison, Mirage and run with the leaders. Like anything else the boats continued to develop. It is also my understanding that the engine support has also gone away for the most part. The cost of a green motor is not cheap. I would guess that a competitive new rig is $25 K+.
You could buy a very competitive 120 boat for the same amount.

I would also suggest looking at dropping the weight, using cable steering and solid mounts to improve handling. Limit the engine height should also be considered. The class also needs to get control of the bumper car mentality. Some the changes may help but I do not think will make a big difference one way or the other.

Some of the classes that were popular in the "glory days" were boats that you could also use on the lake. Family J, etc.
Sport J was also a big class. The boats were not that expensive and a 150XS was 3,000. The sensation of speed was also much higher than a Super Sport We now have SST60 which is Affordable to race and nearly as fast as some of the old SJ boats but we still can not get boats. The 60's are big enough to handle, and fast enough to be alot of fun. You could probably find a real competitive one for 10,000 to 12,000.
The times have changed and maybe our lifestyles have as well. I can remember the first race that I ever ran was in a GN inboard at the Mike Gordon race in Miami. We had qualifying and started 33 boats in the final.
It would be hard to find 4 GN's in existance in the state of Florida that could run today. There is probably still a bunch of equipment in Garages for this class around but not on the race course.
The biggest growing categories in Hot Boating are the Poker Run guys.Some with mega $ rigs in offshore. The other group are the go fast MOD VP pleasure boats that race each other at their local river or lake. Both groups run some really fast speeds but neither really wants to race laps.Both groups also spend a large amount of $'s on their boats.

I wish I had the answer of what would be to best starter class. I think it really boils down to what we enjoy doing in our spare time which for many is also shrinking. How much fun can we have for the $ in the time allowed. I enjoy racing because I like going fast in boats and working on making them as fast as possible. I also like it because of the people involved. The last reason may be what really keeps me involved in the sport.

[Mike Fjeld]

The SS class is just fine where it is. Bruce, can you imagine our bumper boat class going another 20 mph. It would not be pretty.
Untill I met Danny, the only boats I had been around had Kieth Black blocks. Mostly Ski Racing. I grew up around Gary Steel , John " Pete " Peters, Vic Edelbrock ect. My step-father is Tom Siewers and he held the speed ski record from 1969 to 1983. I was looking for a class that I would NOT have to work on engines. I have many other things in my life and spending all of my free time in the garage is not one of them. I was simply looking for a class that I could be compeditive with-out spending all of my $$$$$. After I put my Vison Craft together the only $$ I spent was on how my boat looked and Jeff Titus who builds my props. Jeff has been extreamly helpful with my set-up.
What will happen to boat racing when some of the lakes or rivers have noise restrictions. It will not apply to SS.
I must say that after a bad day in traffic it is very relaxing to drop the boat in the lake and just air it out and not have to worry about rebuilds. I finished US 2 for 01 - 02 - 03 with a engine that had over 600 hrs. All of my testing, playing and racing is about 35 hrs per year. That equals to about 20 years of racing before a rebuild.
To all of the people that think we need bigger engines------ Please take a ride in my Vison---- I think you might change your thoughts. Bill asked me if I would bring my boat to St Louis early for the Grand Prix and teach the local media how to drive and let them make a few laps. I had alot of fun.
SuperSport is designed to be a simple class that will be very compeditive. There are very many people sitting on the fence before they comit because no-one wants to see rule changes ( rule changes KILLED Mod-VP )

Please try to support what Danny has worked so hard at

Mike Fjeld

[Mike Fjeld]

Why 150 H.P. Low Emission Engines?
In the first official letter to the then OPC Chairman (Ron Hill),
my thoughts were to use 150 H.P. as a baseline engine, going back to the early B.A.S.S. tournament days from 1983, that is to say the XR2 Merc, GT/XP 150 Johnson,Evinrudes, Pro-V150 Yamaha, Super-Six Suzuki era...Ron agreed but had been encouraged by the members of the New Class Commitee to
research a way to include the then new "low-emission" engines being offered. Upon a fun comparison of new product brochures
obtained from local dealers my brother (Bill) and I discovered that the manufacturers spec pages were all similar at the low (2 h.p.)
end of the scale and noticably different at the top (225+ h.p.) end.
We were like kids looking at the old Sears&Roebuck Christmas cataloge with these brochures spread out on the parts counter at the marina when we found that in the mid-range (150 h.p.) product comparison the engines were within 11 cubic inches and
18 pounds of each other. With that information in hand I reported back to Ron and the New class commitee that when considering the project goal of "readily avaible equiptment" and "as-shipped"
that with the 150h.p. engines would not require any alteration
for our competition application. On the other hand if we went with
higher horsepower engines the current generation of modified tunnel-V and V-bottom hulls, when combined with current propeller technology would exceed production gearcase capabilties,thus requiring alteration and susequently exceeding the 80 M.P.H. target speed.
(note that the 80 M.P.H. speed cap. was based on many of the consultants reflecting on some of their fondest collective memories
from the glory days of outboard racing in classes where 80M.P.H.
speeds were considered very fast. Add that OPC already had a rule book where many equipment combinations provide participants with higher speed capabilities...)
An additional factor was that all outboard manufacturers offer
Demonstrator Programs to qualified Dealers, and that these eligible Dealers can be assured under this application that they get their "Demo-Unit" back in un-altered condition...

[Mike Fjeld]

Why 1600 Pounds
I'll try to find my original letter to Ron Hill, or hopefully he can dig it
up and post it. In that proposal I had the weights at 1475 pounds. After much research and discussion, it was determined that since the last era of Mod-VP class boats ran at 1450 pounds and the new engines were heavier, plus the fact we plan to attract "Big-Dudes" who otherwise would not neccasarily participate in our already popular lighter weight classes, 1600 pounds would work well . The 1600 pound number was also determined to allow for some modern accesories such as on board
air conditioning, onboard/ondemand underwater breathing apparatus, deployed airbag technology, communication equipment, and so on.
(Add: also lotsa Fried Chicken and Pizza consumption at the races)


__________________
Danny
"No matter how much progress one makes, there is always the thrill of just begining" Dr. Robert Goddard/Rocket Pioneer

[Danny McManus]

.... :D Thanks Mike !!....

I wish I knew how you do that "cut and paste" deal..... :D :D

[Mike Fjeld]

:D
.... :D Thanks Mike !!....

I wish I knew how you do that "cut and paste" deal..... :D :D


Yea -- In the 1st turn it is cut and paste

[Ron Hill]

Mike's an old Ski Racer...Vic Edelbrock, Gary Steel, we need their history in the Encyclopedia...

GN seemed to do well when they had three Divisons....They'd have 15 boats in their class, 5 in each Division...Now they have one Division and have five boat s in it.

I'd think, taking a lesson from Ski racing would be good. Every year I go to the Catalina Ski race to see who wins.....But they have about 150 ski racers...One wins overall, but when you go to the trophy presentation, it takes three hours, the race only takes an hour, becasue there are so many winners, they have Men's Open, Women's Open, Old Man's Class, Junior...50 classes, but year after year they draw 150 boats......BECAUSE almost everyone wins....

Why not OPEN SUPER SPORT to thre Divisions...??? Truth is, it doesn't seem to be growing now, a few more boats couldn't hurt!!!!

Keep in mind I never went to boats to go to the races, I went to WIN...but, I always sent pictures, articles, went to pree days, took time off work to be on TV with Regis, I hustled FOR THE SPORT, not just Ron Hill.

Ken Cree had a party at every Parker Enduro, all day, at his water front home. He loved to sponsor me...What did it cost him???? A case of Champagne and $100 for my entry??? But I took the time, to go an chat with him. He knew I loved racing, was not doing it to get rich...he was glad to help...This is part of an ad he took out in the Parker Paper..

This MOD VP would go 84 mph with a 28 and 92 with a 32. Seems to me, let old Eliminators with 235's and a capsule run Division II Super Sport...

[Mike Fjeld]

I think your ideas are sound but, the one thing I would be concerned about would be for example " sst-70 " one 70 in the US and 60s steping-up to make the class. I am sorry but this does not make any sence to me.
Two schools of thought.

1 When I first started driving this class, it was faster than I wanted to drive. After 1 year I wanted to go much faster.

2 If we were going as fast as I would like to go now it would have been to dangerous for new drivers.


A couple of little stories

I was testing at Dannys marina and Phil Connat was on the course with me in his 280 hp Allison and could not pass me. He finally cut the 1 pin to make a pass.


I used to go to the sand dunes in Yuma and we all had our trick sand toys, but the funnest racing was with the atc 90. It was very close races and the most funnnnn

We don't make any money at racing so I think FUN is the most important thing

[Jeff Lytle]

Mike:

I changed a few srttings around and removed your pics off your post. Hopefully now, the pics will show instead of the titles you have to click to see them.

Here are your pics again:

[Jeff Lytle]

Damn! Sumthin' weird going on here !!

[Mike Fjeld]

I'm not sure if this will work

http://forums.screamandfly.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=72527

This is a cool video

[Mike Muldrow]

I think Supersport is a good class, but I think there should be a faster, step up, class using bigger green motors. However I think the idea of a formula 150 type class for the modified V style boats would be interesting.

I believe there is a need to address racing motors that are actually in production, which leaves us to find a use for the green motors. Supersport works. Everyone asks what does it need to go? It just needs support from someone, APBA, Mercury, Bombardier, Yamaha, APR, CHAMP, anyone, etc.. just some organization that at least can act like the class is a great way to spend a weekend racing and promote it that way. The problem the class has is the only support it has comes from a guy with a little shop on a lake in Central Florida and he can't support a national class on his own!

Using box stock motors is a good way of showing the manufacturers that boat racing is a viable way to sell consumers on the new technology coming out today and in the future. But continuing to use motors that haven't been made in the last 10 years damn sure isn't selling them on anything. Boat racing was in its greatest times when the manufacturers were backing it, they probably never will again, but you can be certain they won't if we are not using their product that sells to the public.

Everyone likes to look to NASCAR and compare boat racing to it. WHY? Unfortunately we aren't NASCAR and we never will be. Why not look to the BASS tournaments and the King Fish tournament circuits. Hell they are both getting TV time starting in 2005, we are certainly more exciting that watching some fish get weighed but no TV for most boat racing and none without paying for it! Whats the secret? Any ideas?

[Mike Fjeld]

I'm sorry I could not read all of the stuff you had to say.....

Please help Danny to make this the best class EVER

[Slider-056]

So far, I have thoroughly enjoyed this class. I have never driven a race in my life, car or boat. I have been involved in performance boating for 1 1/2 years now. My first race ever was at Chattahoochee this past month. I have to tell you that I enjoyed it as much as I enjoyed jumping out of an airplane at 14,000 feet. There are several boats available now for $5,000 or less. There are many more engines on the back of fishing boats to be had for far less than that. It is truly feasable to get into this class for $12,000 or less including safety gear. Then all one has to do is buy batteries and gas.

As for a dual purpose boats, I have been out every weekend since I have purchased the boat. You can see it between Lake Monroe and Lake Harney out of Sanford, FL on any given weekend. I can keep up with most boats that have a 50-75 HP advantage. Top speed for my boat was 81 MPH GPS at 6,250 RPM with a stock 27 SRX.

I am extending an open invitation to come to the FBI races in Crescent City on July 10th. My boat will be there. Just hunt me down and I will put you in the drivers seat.

Thanks,
Mark Mayo

[Danny McManus]

Hi Mark...
Welcome to our sport !!! When I attend our APBA meetings there is often discusions that relate to recruiting new people to our sport. I hope other people on this forum will join me in welcoming you to the ranks of being a powerboat racer, we are a very specialized group of enthusiasts !!

[Slider-056]

Thanks Danny,

I truly owe everything to you. This might not be the fastest class, nor the most sought after, but it is definitely a truly versatile one. I enjoy every minute that I am out on the St. Johns river. Don't get me wrong... I do love my 1983 Critchfield. But, let’s just say, she has received much less attention since I got my Quartershot. I really do enjoy driving this boat. I put 5-10 gallons through her every weekend which amounts to 20-40 miles of pure fun. I am not one for attention, but I am slowly getting used to it. My offer is true. If you are willing to make it to Crescent City on July 10th (Sunday), I will put you in the driver’s seat.

[snatchblock]

this sounds like a grass roots class (cool ) something that many can afford and enjoy with out having deep pockets. I'm going to have to look into this a little more to see if its do able in my area of the country (southern ohio) .. what brands of boats are used for this class ? I saw allisons ,mirage, and Quartershots are there any others that are being used?? Thanks for opening this thread back up

[Slider-056]

So far, this has been a Region 5 class. I would love to see this prosper throughout the country. But I can only wish... Anyway, it is very reasonable in terms of cost and fun. As far as boats, anything is game. Bolt on a roll cage and run with it. It is a 1,600 LB class so specialty gear is not needed. I would highly recommend the Quartershot T-1, but there are a few Vision Craft for sale at a very reasonable price. I'm talking $3,500 for hull and trailer. Possibly $4,500 with steering.

[Dabull1919]

Please pardon me for jumping in but having raced in Mod-VP for many years I would love to see the class succeed. In my on opinion I belive The class died
for only one reason. The powers that were in charge at the time Removed it from the national circuit ( At that time it was IOGP ) and when that happened
the class dried up. Take a mans dream of running his Mod-VP boat in the big show and he`s gonna lose his interest. I did! So if ya want to make SS into
a big time class, Get it on the PROP tour or whatever they call themselfs now.
Just a few thoughts:
Former Mod-VP Racer
Bobby sanders

[Danny McManus]

I wanted to bring this topic back to the top of the forum because many well intentioned boat racing enthusiasts have talked to me about createing a new Super-Sport "open" class... any input will be considerd... thanks to all replies:D

[Ron Hill]

I was thinking about you just the other day...Broc, my 16 year old, was driving our 22 foot outboard, 2.4 V-6 (We had a nice 2.5, .044 over EFI...that Chad managed to melt...but)...Anyway, we went from Needles to Havasu's London Bridge and back...Broc ran that mother wide open all the way, there and back....He let me out long enough to see if Tito was home, then we hauled all the way back to Needles...

Seemed to me, that I should have slowed him down once we'd cleared a few three footers....but the way he was holding the wheel (Quite a lot of torque on a Teleflex steering) and pushing the hammer down.... Broc never said a word about the trip...But in my mind, I think he felt he'd won the race that day.....

I had planned to "PONDER" on the river and drink of few beers......Broc asked what the rumble was when he backed off...I tried to explain that I didn't see him back off, but that it was probably the tuner..... His answer, "What's a tuner?"....

Danny, when you Conceptualize Super Sport, there was a NOISE factor that you'd planned...but the 2006 motors never made noise....Seems to me, that there is something to be said about SOME noise...Harley rides say loud pipes save lives....

Let me make several suggestions for Super Sport:


1. Open th class to Formula 150 Powerhead rules.
2. Score any 2006 engine in a different class. (Basically Two Divisions: Super Sport 2006 and Super Sport Formula 150) (No Spedmasters). If Division II (Formula 150) goes too fast, lower them down to 2" below the bottom...
3. Read Rod Zapf's Rules for Parker, especially the RED ZONES for corners... (Basically, maintain your lane in corners, like UIM rules...enter in lane four, exit in lane four)....
4. Race on 35 to 40 second courses with single bouy turns, two ten lap qualifiers Satuday, with a 20 lap Main on Sunday.
5. Follow GNRA's lead and race 6 times a year... (Form a Super Sport Club in your area and meet to discuss your six races)...
6. Keep your weights and safety rules as they are now...

These aren't all my thoughts, but close to it..

I don't like EFI motors on MOD VP boats, as I feel the speeds, even on a 35-40 course are too fast. Not to mention they are way too expensive to be running all the time.

I was also wondering if you went to the Mt. Dora Antique Boat Show??? If I could find the mountain, in Mt. Dora, may be, I'd go to the show!!!

[Danny McManus]

Howdy Ron,I love you like a brother... the open class for for Super-Sport will include "altered production gearcase" ....this will allow a provision for two one inch holes above the anti-ventilation plate on the starboard side, just as specified in my original draft of the Super-Sport rules...
thanks for your reply.....you da MAN !!!

[Ron Hill]

Take a few minutes an read the Formula 150 rules...

Main points are 2.0, 2.4 and 2.5 fishing STOCK BLOCKS, no racing blocks. Carbs only....

[Miss BK]

Re: Noise factor

When I went to the Super Cross races in the RCA dome a couple of months ago, I expected to hear the sounds of loud bikes throughout the night. I was dead wrong. The only bike I heard was one lone 2-stroke from France, until he crashed out before the final.

The rest of the bikes were silent 4-strokes - I never heard a single one of them! But that didn't matter to the crowd at all.

Because to make up for the lack of sound, the arena was pumped with VERY LOUD rock music playing behind a VERY LOUD announcer. Those chest thumping drum beats were enough to get the fans' adrenaline going. Nobody even noticed the bikes were quiet. It was super LOUD in there.

Of all the boat racing videos I've seen, the best ones have been those with ACDC type rock-n-roll as the "noise" --- they didn't have any motor audio.

I've been saying for a long time that SuperSport has one HUGE advantage over the louder classes -- that is it's one of the few classes where you can hear the announcers follow the race.

And (if music were to be played over loud speakers) you could also have the crowd on their feet - screaming and dancing - just like at the SuperCross shows. So take full advantage of this quieter aspect that other motor sports can't use. If you've got speakers available - put them to FULL use.

[David Weaver]

Re: Noise factor

I've been saying for a long time that SuperSport has one HUGE advantage over the louder classes -- that is it's one of the few classes where you can hear the announcers follow the race.

.

That because they do not have Ray Roda (aka RLR) who can easily talk over a six-cylinder looper even with a sore throat. Holy Buckets!!!!

[Ron Hill]

BK, you are right...but when one boat goes along quiet enough for the other guy to yell "Get the HELL out of the way"...Anyway....

If anyone wants me running a Super Sport, at 80...I want it to sound like a hundred....I don't want to go a hundred and be quiet..

When my kids use to drive my wife's "SNAPPERS", I drilled exhaust relief holes in the motors, so I could hear where the hell they were on the river...and so, they wouldn't come up behind me while I was floating down the river "PONDERING"...as, you may not realize it, but, get me to Needles, and I'm a HELL OF A "PONDERER"....

In fact, I'm heading to Needles this Wednesday, to "PONDER" the races at Parker...as I have told Ross I'd bring Jessica's boat to Parker as a river patrol boat....Jessica won't be there as she's getting ready to have granddaughter number two, at any second....

FYI: I'm buying a jeep and rock collecting tumblers. I've decided my granddaughters won't be ready to race boats for awhile, but maybe, they'd enjoy going over the desert and picking up rocks, and polishing them...There are some pretty rocks between Needles and Kingman...AND, I bet you knew that!!!!

[Miss BK]

The Mod-C class was extremely loud. But when you have 2 coming up behind you, it still sounds like one. You can't tell which side, so sometimes you move to the wrong one.

But if you're the one with the loud engine, you won't hear anything but yourself.

Also, regarding the red zones and staying in lanes in the turns: what is going to keep a boat from hooking and slicing across 3 lanes, directly in front of the others? I've had a lot of friends hurt badly that way -- that was why capsules were invented.

After capsules came into our lives, we were able to toss that worry aside for 99% of the incidents. I still consider bow stuffs and hooks (into the path of other boats) posing more of a danger to the driver than a blowover.


Those SuperCross people sure figured out how to take advantage of the "quiet" 4-strokes. They also have those bikes going so SLOW (by so many tight turns and no long straights) that a bike can hit a driver and not leave a scratch.



PS My kids love tumbling rocks too. But about Needles: Do you know about the ancient MAZE across the highway? Its a foot path maze that the Mohave Indians created many centuries ago.

It's on the Havasu side of I-40 - actually part of the highway cuts through the maze, which used to start at the base of the mountain and go all the way to the river. When you start, you have to choose between about 40 paths that have been dug into the dirt. But only one path takes you to the water. The natives used to run throughout the entire course. These mazes were thought to get rid of demons who were following them back from hunting trips, by causing them to get lost in the confusing maze paths.

I didn't have any idea these were out there until about 10 years ago when my sister (a school teacher from Bullhead) took me out there one day.

Really cool place. :)

[Ron Hill]

Capsules didn't prevent a death in Super Sport. Maintaining your lane is easy, if that was the rule. But that isn't the rule except in INBOARD. The referee with advice from the Race Committee could enforce lane voilations the same way they enforce any other rule.

When classes are combined, the faster boats should be required to stay on the outside and the slower ones run the shorter route...For some crazy reason, most people think that running boats of different speeds, at the same time isn't possible... This thinking is NUTS. When my brother won the Heasrt Regatta in 1949, there were 32 "A" Hydros...There were no spills, there were more than 10 MPH difference in speed from the winner to last place.... But, boats ran the propshaft even with the bottom... Speeds were in the mid 40's...

Running two Divisions of Super Sport, at the same time, would be a piece of cake....

[Jeff Akers]

Those SuperCross people sure figured out how to take advantage of the "quiet" 4-strokes. They also have those bikes going so SLOW (by so many tight turns and no long straights) that a bike can hit a driver and not leave a scratch. :)



Val,
Supercross has been through “ many” changes in the last few years mostly do to
Manufactures having to curb exhaust emissions and more recently “noise”. These
Mandates came from EPA and CARB ( California air resources board) .

The AMA (American motorcyclist association) and AMA Pro Racing(the governing body of supercross) have made changes in the rules to address these Mandates.

Believe me, the “racers” were not very happy about the hole 4 strk deal !

The noise issue is something that dirtbike manufactures are trying to salve but with an open and strong (aftermarket) it has been a battle. Do to loss of riding area’s throughout the country the AMA and AMA Pro Racing have changed there rules to include a maximum decibel limit on every motorcycle in competition.

As far as SLOW speed go’s you would be surprised at how fast those boys are really going!
I feel I need to correct your statement about being able to run into each other and not get a scratch!

Truth is they get injured on a regular basis. This season there have been two major injuries so far…One rider was hit by another racers front wheel (in a slow speed section) and suffered a broken back. He is now paralyzed from the neck down. The latest was a crash that happened during practice, it was a single bike incident witch also left the rider paralyzed…last year the sport “lost” its first rider in over 30 years do to a crash..( a very slow speed tip over !) … So its not as safe as you may think!

I’m glad you enjoyed the race! supercross has come a long way since it’s introduction in the 1970’s. One thing that has remained is the fact that supercross and motocross are still “family” oriented sports.. very much like boat racing !

I think that boat racing could learn a few things from the the AMA and AMA Pro Racing to bring it into the mainstream … But that’s’ another story !

Keep posting Val …You always make some good points and give good info!

[Barry Strawn]

Maintaining your lane is easy, if that was the rule.

I'm just a spectator when it comes to SuperSports, but there seemed to be a lot of spinouts leading to folks getting run into or over. Perhaps this is easily explained by the number of rookie drivers or maybe it is the right hand gearcase and left hand turns.

[Jeff Akers]

When classes are combined, the faster boats should be required to stay on the outside and the slower ones run the shorter route...For some crazy reason, most people think that running boats of different speeds, at the same time isn't possible... This thinking is NUTS. Running two Divisions of Super Sport, at the same time, would be a piece of cake....

Another boat racing/motorcycle racing thought.

In offroad (Cross Country) racing they may have as many as 300 + racers on the corse at the same time. they line up in rows of (class) six or seven rows are comon...they start 20 seconds apart... they are all scored seperatly acording to (Class).... and we arent talking about wide open desert here ...this is all single track ( picture a COW trail ). Passing is done all the time .. I have personaly started on the 6th row... won my class and finnished 14 overall... Not bosting here, just proving a point that I think you could run "some" boat races with multiple classes and score them seperate !

I think it would allso make the racing more intresting and chalenging:cool: just my opinion .....;)

[john miffco]

i just returned fom a trip to new zealand in march,,,,
and while i was there i raced in the F1 class with my boat

over there there is as many people in the country as we have in houston alone

their boat count is no where near what we have here in the states
i was racing with v drive flatties,tunnels,jets,and full blown v8 hydros
in practice i learned the slower boats,the wide turners and the deep water gashes of the hydros
they race on a handicap system off of the qualifying heat
slower boats are given time that is added at the finish
if sand bag the qualifier and run a faster main event , would be be dqd

this system works for them to allow more boats on the water at a time
to put on a better show
its great flying past a flatty on straights,and diving in at the bouy on a hydro in the corners
definately have to respect all boats in the heat
and know how they drive ,,,takes some getting used to

when we add some 120s to the champ class to make up their field
its a piece of cake compared to having a blown hydo come up your ,,s
had a blast,,,will do it again at 1st chance
john

[Miss BK]

Capsules didn't prevent a death in Super Sport.

Ron,

Capsules have not only prevented deaths in Super Sport, but thousands of other lives too. Those boats hook and spin out on a regular basis. There would be guys being flung all over the place if they weren't strapped in. (Just like it was in Mod-VP before capsules). Remember all the guys who today can't walk, have fiberglass imbedded in their flesh or are now missing body parts from being pitched out and then run over? The numbers that didn't make it at all goes into the thousands. Pre-capsule era, we used to lose 10 or more per year. The hydroplanes even once lost 3 in one day!

But the capsuled classes don't have to endure black days like those anymore. Those are only found in history books.

And what about all the guys who quit racing for good because of witnessing those injuries? Entire families who got out of the sport. Just about all the people who used to race with me left the sport for that reason: We don't like to see people die.

But that was before capsules.

Just because there is a freak capsule accident once in a while does not equate to capsules not doing what they were built for. I can't even begin to count how many lives are here today because of capsules -- in fact, most of my F1 friends count themselves in that category. One guy who is a close friend of yours is here today because of capsules: Greg Foster.

I was just thinking about some stuff I have to do and need to run - and one of my to-do tasks is to write an email to my Italian friend Massimo thanking him for my Easter card --- when suddenly I realize this is yet another person whose life was affected painfully during those dark days - who at age 9 lost his tunnel boat racing dad because capsules had not been invented yet.

[Miss BK]

I feel I need to correct your statement about being able to run into each other and not get a scratch!

Truth is they get injured on a regular basis. This season there have been two major injuries so far…One rider was hit by another racers front wheel (in a slow speed section) and suffered a broken back. He is now paralyzed from the neck down. The latest was a crash that happened during practice, it was a single bike incident witch also left the rider paralyzed…last year the sport “lost” its first rider in over 30 years do to a crash..( a very slow speed tip over !) … So its not as safe as you may think!


Hi Jeff,

I hope I didn't make it sound like I was saying it was injury free. What I was trying to point out is that out of about 23 "connections", only 2 were serious. The other 21 riders who were swiped by another bike got back up on their bikes and continued on. I guess the point I was making is that they have such short runs and turn so often that they aren't at speed (ie: not at the speeds you would see if they were on a 3 mile straight).

I'm sure you are right about the riders not being happy about switching to 4-strokes. In any sport, changes usually creates major turmoil.

But what impressed me with the SuperCross folks is that instead of crying about the loss of 2-stroke "noise", they instead set out to invent their own noise! It's not my favorite music, but it was LOUD and did get adrenaline flowing -- and that's the whole point of the "Noise" in the first place.

I went to the races with three former bike racers, and no one mentioned they were missing the 2-stroke noise. But I could tell the event was geared toward the enjoyment of the fans --- and not riders. In fact, they had the riders doing all types of extra-curricular activities prior to the show. (such as sitting in random spots next to the regular fans in the grandstands, waiting for the spot lights to do a "surprise" indroduction).

It was fun to see the looks on the kids faces, who suddenly realized their "hero" was sitting in their very row!

But....I still chose the lone 2-Stroke bike as my pick to win for the evening. :D I don't know why. Maybe because he was a rebel? ;)



Funny thing is that two of those former bike racers are now doctors who live in a prestigious neighborhood on a golf course - and they have each purchased 4-stroke bikes for themselves and their sons.

One of them had the bravery to build a DIRT TRACK right out in own his backyard, that follows along the 14th Fairway! This community is extremely restrictive --- no sheds, no boats in the driveway, no fences, no playsets. BUT - there is nothing in the homeowners assoc. book that says "No motorcycle tracks" LOL! So there's nothing the association can do about it! Everytime I see him and his sons out riding their bikes, I have to laugh out loud.

I'll have to take a picture and post it here. You'll love it. :)

So far he's had no complaints - but that wouldn't be the case if the bikes were 2-strokes. :D :eek: :p

[Jeff Akers]

Hi Jeff,

I hope I didn't make it sound like I was saying it was injury free. What I was trying to point out is that out of about 23 "connections", only 2 were serious. The other 21 riders who were swiped by another bike got back up on their bikes and continued on. I guess the point I was making is that they have such short runs and turn so often that they aren't at speed (ie: not at the speeds you would see if they were on a 3 mile straight).

I'm sure you are right about the riders not being happy about switching to 4-strokes. In any sport, changes usually creates major turmoil.

But what impressed me with the SuperCross folks is that instead of crying about the loss of 2-stroke "noise", they instead set out to invent their own noise! It's not my favorite music, but it was LOUD and did get adrenaline flowing -- and that's the whole point of the "Noise" in the first place.

I went to the races with three former bike racers, and no one mentioned they were missing the 2-stroke noise. But I could tell the event was geared toward the enjoyment of the fans --- and not riders. In fact, they had the riders doing all types of extra-curricular activities prior to the show. (such as sitting in random spots next to the regular fans in the grandstands, waiting for the spot lights to do a "surprise" indroduction).

It was fun to see the looks on the kids faces, who suddenly realized their "hero" was sitting in their very row!

But....I still chose the lone 2-Stroke bike as my pick to win for the evening. :D I don't know why. Maybe because he was a rebel? ;)



Funny thing is that two of those former bike racers are now doctors who live in a prestigious neighborhood on a golf course - and they have each purchased 4-stroke bikes for themselves and their sons.

One of them had the bravery to build a DIRT TRACK right out in own his backyard, that follows along the 14th Fairway! This community is extremely restrictive --- no sheds, no boats in the driveway, no fences, no playsets. BUT - there is nothing in the homeowners assoc. book that says "No motorcycle tracks" LOL! So there's nothing the association can do about it! Everytime I see him and his sons out riding their bikes, I have to laugh out loud.

I'll have to take a picture and post it here. You'll love it.

So far he's had no complaints - but that wouldn't be the case if the bikes were 2-strokes. :p


I agree, Most crashes they walk away from !

The noise issue only came up this last year because of all the "4 strokes" !They found that they are actualy louder than the 2 stokes:eek:

Supercross is a graet "show" and thats what packs the seat's.!!

I wish your friend luck with his track....even stars like Jeremy McGrath have found it a problem lately...read this if you are intrested.. http://www.amadirectlink.com/news/2006/Riverside.asp


I think this has gone off Topic... sorry .

[Jeff Akers]

I remember when I was a very young boy my dad took me to Unlimited hydro race.. 1968 maybe ???... my Hero at the time was Billy Shoemacher(SP)..anyway as the days racing went by and during one of the breaks one of the unlimited drivers was also a pilot... he got into a little Biplane and put on one hell of a show ! think his name was Myra Slovach ?.

Seems to me it would be a good croud pleaser at any boat racing event during the slow times !! It might be good for both boat racing and the EAA guys. After all if you want to put there butt's in the seats it has to be a "show" Right ?

Edit: Hmmm, me thinks sombody had a little to mutch Coffee today..LOL

[spn#43]

Super Sport….:eek: wow:eek: …, I won’t even dare to go there…….http://forums.screamandfly.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101719

[Ron Hill]

<TABLE class=tborder id=post18750 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR vAlign=top><TD class=alt2 width=175></TD><TD class=alt1 id=td_post_18750><!-- icon and title -->http://www.boatracingfacts.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif multiple classes
<HR style="COLOR: #000000" SIZE=1><!-- / icon and title --><!-- message -->i just returned fom a trip to new zealand in march,,,,
and while i was there i raced in the F1 class with my boat

over there there is as many people in the country as we have in houston alone

their boat count is no where near what we have here in the states
i was racing with v drive flatties,tunnels,jets,and full blown v8 hydros
in practice i learned the slower boats,the wide turners and the deep water gashes of the hydros
they race on a handicap system off of the qualifying heat
slower boats are given time that is added at the finish
if sand bag the qualifier and run a faster main event , would be be dqd

this system works for them to allow more boats on the water at a time
to put on a better show
its great flying past a flatty on straights,and diving in at the bouy on a hydro in the corners
definately have to respect all boats in the heat
and know how they drive ,,,takes some getting used to

when we add some 120s to the champ class to make up their field
its a piece of cake compared to having a blown hydo come up your ,,s
had a blast,,,will do it again at 1st chance
john

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>Well, John,

Seems to me that we have a whole country full of people that can't even think that one boat could race another, when one might be five miles faster...

In the old days, Havasu had 118 boats start the race, some went 50, some went 100...

Dudley MALONE TOLD ME NBRA runs all classes together... Seems, he said, tha the slower boats learn to stay out of the way of the fast boats, and the fast boats learn to stay out of the way of the slower boats...

I started racing in 1955, and Lee Morehouse built my boats. Lee had work with Walt Disney when Disney was getting started, but his real m oney came from Bank of America....BUt I recall his wife, Ibby, saying that at 5 o'clock she liked to go clean up like a lady and have a martini, like a lady.....

When I bought my first motorhome, Ibby's words were in my head...After attending the Winter Nationals in Louisiana, 27 classes...I thought, at what point does this become CRAZY??

APBA should have a sanction that went from 10 to 3....any more racing than 5 hours the rates would double...

Would someone tell me the difference between 20SSH, B Mod Hydro, C Stock Hydro, B Hydro, A Mod Hydro...All these hydros should start on a leMans start, run a ten lap qualifier and then, run a second qualifier. Then, a 20 lap main.

Any race that lasts past 4:00 p.m., will be fined $200 PER HOUR. THEMS, WOULD BE HILL RULES...

[john miffco]

the hill rules would keep us more broke,,,jus funnin
running mixed classes is cool,,,and should be done with some of the low boat count classes to keep them classes alive
martini time..........yes,,,,
at the end of a race day i look forward to a shower and a nice meal/drink surrounded with other teams shooting the bull
1 of the main reasons i opc tunnel race,a great family of drivers

also you missed the bryan tri hull season opener,,,,,
were racing at highlands this weekend,,,,,

i have a brand new white tri hull here at the shop waiting to hit the water,,,,
as i said before,,,,,,you tell me your coming ,,,,,
ill make sure theres 1 for you to drive,,,,,,,
john

[Ron Hill]

We are heading to Parker in a few minutes...

I want to visit John Rinker in Indiana, and talk him out of hius Tri Hull...

Then, I'll make several of your races or hire me a driver...Like J. MICHAEL KELLY.....(I wish)...

[Roy Hodges]

What kind of hull is it ? what class is it for ? Roy P.S. how about a picture of it ?

[Miss BK]

Tri-hull racing is a local class run in the southern states (mostly Texas & Louisiana).

Here's a whole bunch of info on Tri-Hull racing, Plus GREAT pictures!

http://www.boatracingfacts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=353

[1Badaction]

I have been following this thread since I signed up over here a while back. Super Sport is definately an interesting class to me, and I believe it has alot of potential, especially with an awesome guy like Danny Mcmanus involved. I think there have been some good ideas, and I have a few I'd like to add (from a spectator/possible racer perspective)

SuperSport boats:
keep the stone stock 150s, No relief, no modifications. IMO it is imperative to keep the engine stock so (in the case of a demo) it can be returned to the dealer, OR they are MUCH easier to sell, stock and untouched.
Add another class to use carb or laser injection 150 powerheads, exhaust relief, solid mounts, light cowlings, 150psi heads, and standard gearcase with a cone, run these at the same time and score them seperate. This will open up racing class to more people. instead of needing to buy a complete 06 engine to run, all alot of guys will need to do is buy a 150 powerhead off of ebay and bolt it on their lake boat mid/lower and go racing.
For the non-capsule boats, Spec a roll-cage to be made out of steel or aluminum. I will gladly do solid models and fabrication drawings of both a steel and aluminum cage, make sure they are engineered correctly, and make the prints and parts lists available to Danny so he can give them out as he sees fit.Races... I think a good idea is to find out what local festivities happen every year, and schedule a race then. Like Eustis has the(spring festival, right?) and Ft. Myers has the Edison parade of light, The day of the parade of light, there are people having cookouts at the park right on the river, its a perfect place to have a race, same way with the Swamp cabbage festival in Labelle, etc etc. My point is, have a SS Race the same place, every year, get buddy buddy with the local city people and make it a part of the event thats being held that day. set up maybe 6 races a season in different places and run em. nascar doesnt worry about where F1 is running on that day, why should SS NEED to run with the tunnels?

Jim

[Miss BK]

My point is, have a SS Race the same place, every year, get buddy buddy with the local city people and make it a part of the event thats being held that day. set up maybe 6 races a season in different places and run em. nascar doesnt worry about where F1 is running on that day, why should SS NEED to run with the tunnels?
Jim


Excellent point about "same place every year". That's key to bringing back "loyal" fans, which is what will spell your survival.

But the reason SS has to run with other classes is due to cost for a day of racing. Insurance for a boat race is very spendy, (you have to have liability coverage for your spectators as well as your racers) as well as hiring EMTs to be on site and buying the race equipment (flags/timers/radios) and covering the expenses of your officials (which is often all they ask). 12 entry fees won't even come close to the many thousands of dollars needed for a day of racing.

So that's why you see 3 or 4 classes at each race - with the hope of getting 50 or more entries (50 x $300 is going to cover much more than 12 x $300).

If you are very lucky, you might get the festival people to agree to provide this extra race coverage, but be sure to read the fine print to make sure they aren't just getting insurance to cover themselves in case of a law suit - and leaving the racers exososed. That has happened and it's often the local festival boards who are the worst culprits of this. But you can't really blame them - they're working within a budget too.

[Miss BK]

My point is, have a SS Race the same place, every year, get buddy buddy with the local city people and make it a part of the event thats being held that day. set up maybe 6 races a season in different places and run em. nascar doesnt worry about where F1 is running on that day, why should SS NEED to run with the tunnels?
Jim


Excellent point about "same place every year". That's key to bringing back "loyal" fans, which is what will spell your survival.

But the reason SS has to run with other classes is due to cost for a day of racing. Insurance for a boat race is very spendy, (you have to have liability coverage for your spectators as well as your racers) as well as hiring EMTs to be on site and buying the race equipment (flags/timers/radios) and covering the expenses of your officials (which is often all they ask). 12 entry fees won't even come close to the many thousands of dollars needed for a day of racing.

So that's why you see 3 or 4 classes at each race - with the hope of getting 50 or more entries (50 x $300 is going to cover much more than 12 x $300). And usually a region club is used, because they already have the equipment available.

If you are very lucky, you might get the festival people to agree to provide this extra race coverage, but be sure to read the fine print to make sure they aren't just getting insurance to cover themselves in case of a law suit - and leaving the racers exososed. That has happened and it's often the local festival boards who are the worst culprits of this. But you can't really blame them - they're working within a budget too.

[Tstone]

1 bad action is saying he is interested, I am as well. If Florida could not support a one class circuit I would be very suprised and dissapointed. If you knew that 6-8 supersports would be running I can't imagine that most boat races wouldn't want you to show up (as a special event if nothing else) Look at what SLTs at the FBI races for instance.

[Danny McManus]

bttt:D :D

[Danny McManus]

...the new suzuki 150 h.p. four stroke, and mercury 150 verado, along with the honda 150 and yamaha's 150 four-stroke are also included on the list of legal
engines allowed in the OPC super-sport class...

[Ron Hill]

Do me a favor.....Open Super Sport to Outboard Nostalgia Rules...

83 MPh
Exceed 83.9, one lap penalty
Exceed 85.9 kicked out for the weekend...

Turst me, Danny, this IS THE WAY THE SPORT IS GOING!


It is called BRACKET RACING IN DRAGS.........

Here is a picture of Chad, 83 MPH for 300 miles...Copied from Poweboat Magazine 2007)...

Trust me, Danny, no one loves MOD VP more than me. Chad doesn't want to go more than 83 in this MOD VP....

Don't forget, NOISE was one of your plans when we STARTED Super SPORT.....Take NOISE away from NASCAR and you have lost a MAJOR COMPONENT of the show....

Super Sport is a DEAD ISSUE, listen to Ron Hill!!!!

One Rule: 83 MPH Maximum!!!!!!

[Danny McManus]

Hi Ron !!!
Happy New Year to you and your family... hope all is well.

[Ron Hill]

Do you know how the speed limit works??? I'll admit, it took me three years to understand it.

[CSR4C]

Ron,
Has a gps ever screwd up during a race and the driver was disqualifed?
I have seen gps's give false reading twice. Once when I was testing my marathon boat at Mendota. The water was flat & stickey, got a gps reading of 68mph when I was really going about 54 mph. Another was at an antique meet with a BU reading that was at least 5 fast. Then there is the famous 92 mph Rotax 250ccH at Cullaby Lake.
I think my false reading was do to turns or bouncing. Vintage Jersey Speed Skiffs also use a GPS with a 60mph speed limit. I think with them there would more of a chance for a false reading.

Darrell

[Joe J]

Darrell brings up a good point. A couple of years ago I was helping
David Weaver test is 250CCH @ Depue, and he came in with a top speed in the 168mph range.

Joe


Ron,
Has a gps ever screwd up during a race and the driver was disqualifed?
I have seen gps's give false reading twice. Once when I was testing my marathon boat at Mendota. The water was flat & stickey, got a gps reading of 68mph when I was really going about 54 mph. Another was at an antique meet with a BU reading that was at least 5 fast. Then there is the famous 92 mph Rotax 250ccH at Cullaby Lake.
I think my false reading was do to turns or bouncing. Vintage Jersey Speed Skiffs also use a GPS with a 60mph speed limit. I think with them there would more of a chance for a false reading.

Darrell

[Ron Hill]

Generally, and I'll admit, being as smart as I am, there is a lot I don't know.....

Nostalgia Rules go as follows, I think:

1. 80 MPG speed limit
2. 80.9 is allowed with no penalty
3. Over 80.9 one lap penalty
4. Over 85, you are out for the weekend....So, 168 MPH 350 would be out for the weekend...As the Nostalgia racers don't want guys testing their Super Stocks during a Nostalgia race.....


I have nort heard of strange speeds, but then again, these are bigger, heavier boats than A-350 boats. I don't know if the smoother ride produces and accurate speed, I notice that my cell phone will drop a call on rough road, befor it will drop a call in the mountains.

What I have OBSERVED is guys show their GPS to the SCRUTINEER, and they accpet what he reads. GPS Germin have a time clock that can be checked with race time, if needed.

I have observed more complaining abut jumped guns (Regular classes) than any DQ/Penalty in Nostalgia.

As Al Stoker and I were talking, today, it could be that the people racing "BRACKETS" (Nostalgia) realize they are there for the fun...they know, too, they ain't the "SHOW"...They are there for FUN, FRIENDS and FAMILY.

[Miss BK]

My 10 year old (named Parker) came up with a solution to the speed limit problem - he says that each boat needs to be towing a motorless hull behind it! Now THAT would be fun to watch, wouldn't it?

[RichardKCMo]

My 10 year old (named Parker) came up with a solution to the speed limit problem - he says that each boat needs to be towing a motorless hull behind it! Now THAT would be fun to watch, wouldn't it?

Isn't that what 8 car people do , after seeing a couple of those i'm glad i'm not in that trailer car. HEH HEH.
RichardKCMo

[Danny McManus]

Hi Val...
Jeff (a.k.a. "Hollywood") Pira had a similar idea of us towing skiers...:D
I hope to see you and your family this year!!

[Danny McManus]

Howdy Ron,
It sounds like a Super-Sport boat will meet the rules for your speed-limited
nostalgia class as you have described it... good work!!!

[Father Nostalgia]

When I first started the nostalgia classes through SCSC, Pirmarily Ross Wallach, we tried timed laps to check speed. It did not work out very well. I tried a radar gun and it was cumbersome and worked only on one boat at a time. Brad Stillman and I came up with the idea of using a hand held gps unit. We also belived that we should use one particular brand, "garman". We originally tried a speed limit of 70-75 mph. in the early years and arrived at a maximum speed of 80 mph. using the gps units. We knew there might be variations between the units and mandated, by gps, a speed of 80.9 mph. If the racer went over the 80.9 mph, and was less than 85 mph. he was penalized one lap. If he went over that, he was penalized for the weekend and asked to race in another class. So far, the gps has worked great. The competition was fierce and there was very little grumbling. The primary consideration has always been safety, and a secondary one of enjoying the sport. The Nostalgia classes are growing at each race site. It's fun, affordable for the guy with a thin wallet, competitive with the big wallet, and"relatively safer" than the other classes. Be safe and have fun. Father Nostalgia

[vishus]

anyone have a schedule of races for 2007?

thx.sid

[Danny McManus]

Father Nostalgia, boats that consistantly run just under the 80.9 mph speed
would do ok then, sounds good. Sid, I don't have the 2007 schedule but the
APBA website has many regions schedules listed...thanks