Ted Jones Hydro

[BBaron]

This is a 1960 Ted Jones and they were fast but did
not turn good

[Ted March]

What a great picture. It's a keeper.

Thanks,
TM

[Mark75H]

I agree, that is a fantastic picture. What kind of motor is on that one?

[BBaron]

The motor is a D Merc it has a gas tank mounted on the engine

[Jeff Lytle]

Guess the high center of gravity would make any boat turn a little funny with all that fuel sloshing around and all.

Must have been a "Free for all" heat of some kind--Note the runabout on the back stretch in the pic.

[BRIAN HENDRICK]

This is a recent pic of a C/D Jones being refinished in ON. Should be on the water this summer. We have been challenged by a fellow in Indy to appear at Constantine, and run against his McDonald; -a 'Cab-Over Shoot Out'.
May be a plan. ....i thought these boats were mid/late '50s. No?

[BBaron]

Did some checkiing and it is a 1959 I just missed it 1 year
The one you are redoing brings back memories good ones

[Modhydro Steve]

Here is the boat that Brian is worried about. I am still planning on it. I'll have the Konig B stocker there as well. I will try to have the Scott Green Hornet as well, but I need to get some of my current racing stuff done first!

Steve

[Mark75H]

47H is a MacDonald?

[Modhydro Steve]

Sam,

I had extensive conversations with Hugh while he was still alive when I was restoring this boat about 11 years ago. He pegged it as a MacDonald as did Wilbur's son Larry when he came to Indiana to see it. That was good enough for me. The engine fairing may be throwing you. I added that as a removeable turtle deck as per the customer's request to make it look like an Entrop record boat. The customer decided to sell it so I bought it from him. It will hit the water in Constantine Michigan this summer. You should come out and see some of the stuff there. It is always quite a meet.

Steve

[Mark75H]

Larry's sister is very interested in their father's work. She is a member here and on other boards, always looking for pictures of the boats Wilbur built. :)

[BRIAN HENDRICK]

This pic is a PR [Hubbell?] powered McDonald as seen at the John Ward race in '61. # 108 N, Al Redmond. The boat still exists in NY, but in poor shape.
I was told this rig set a competition record in the late '50s.

[Ron Hill]

It sure doesn't have the McDonald look....the bottom would give it away.......Almost looks like a Hal Kelley "Mad Cap"....but then, my mind is going.

Did Wilbur McDonald build all of Hugh's boats? Or did Hugh build some of them...as I recall, the early ones had a cloth deck...

I wonder how many cab overs were actually built...The only one I ever drove was a cloth deck...and a very fun boat to drive...Honest as heck, get your *** in the back and the nose came up, but scoot forward and the tail "POPPED" and off you went...

The CABOVER or "Monkey on a Stick" as stick as they were called by many........DAMN SID CRAFTS CAME ALONG AND MADE THEM ALL HISTORY IN ABOUT A WEEK!!!! This is no slam on Sid and Mickey as they built a great boat....

Times change!!! And so do designs..

[BRIAN HENDRICK]

The coaming 'cut-away' and the low cloth deck distinguish the McDonalds from the Jones. This pic from Charlies files. Were the Sids 'faster', or did they corner faster, ie race faster??

[Ron Hill]

That's a McDonald cap over as I remeber them, except I thought they ran 55-H's on that size....

Speed or boat can be "DISCUSSED" forever, let me try my opinions and observations....

About 1962, Ted May managed to buy Elgin Gates's equipment. Included, as I recall was a triple deck trailer, two Mexican Phantom A-B runabout, a gold plated Mark 55-E and an Entrop Cabover... At that time we called them "ENTROP CABOVERS".....because Hugh drove them and we assumed he built them....Much of the design, we heard, had come from Boeing's wind tunnel..

Anyway, I got to driver Ted's cabover, also known as a "Monkey on a Stick"....at Irvine Lake, testing..I must have driven it for an hour...THIS BOAT ALSO HAD A RUDDER TO KEEP THE BOAT FROM "CAT WALKING" ON THE STRAIGHTS AND IT ALSO HELPED IT CORNER...BUT IT ALSO SLOWED THE BOAT DOWN...

FAST FORWARD TO LIKE 1967. The HEDLUND'S WERE BUILDING HYDROS THAT WERE WINNING EVERYTHING IN A AND B HYDRO. Thye had a deck like a "BULL NOSED" DeSilva, but the bottom was a mini Entrop Cabover, except they didn't have you driving from the nose, you sat on the transom, until she started to "blow over", then you'd better have ben on the steering wheel..

The Hedlund Hydro ook over...Until, 1974, when Steve DeFeo came to Daytona with a Craig Craft (Craig Selvidge had designed a new hydro, with designs copied from the likes of Cliff Bedford...the hollow transom and with some totally new concepts of les drag...Steve DeFeo won ASH at Dayton by a half lap, the rest had ahEDLUNDS...iN 1975 ALMOST ALL THE A HYDROS WERE CRAIG CRAFTS.

The thruth was the Sid Crafts, the Craig Crafts "prop rode" BUT ONLY A HALF INCH OFF THE WATER...They weren't as pretty as the "CABOVERS"...but they disturbed less air, ran parallel to the water and as a result ran faster and quicker.They were not more stable to drive, but the B and H Hydros of today, will run faster and quicker than anything I've ever seen...but I'd also say they aren't more stable than an old Sid.....

Personally, a One Designed Cab Over class would be great......but

[Joe Silvestri 36-S]

Interesting read Ron. Thanks for the story. Any other stories like the one posted above?

[BRIAN HENDRICK]

Looking for a pic of a Hedlund, but came up with a Dubinski ...?????
Looks like a Hedlund to me. All were derivatives of Jupiters, lots of lift, 'S' bottoms, called semi-cabovers, but certainly all 'tail-draggers' !!
Seems to be what the PROs run in Europe today, as they run much
rougher water than we do.

[Mark75H]

I always thought R-96 looked exactly like Entrop's old D

I asked Hu about wind tunnel testing (he was a model builder for Boeing). He said no, they would not let him use the wind tunnel (they charged by the hour for its use).

[BBaron]

The boat I put on here is a Ted Jones no copy or any
of that and we ran D engines on it
Just got back from the reunion it was nice:rolleyes:

[Modhydro Steve]

The following is a quick synopsis from phone conversations with Hugh when I was restoring the MacDonald:

Jones was responsible for the cabover designs. Hugh said that He and Jones used to hang out at the same Mercury dealership and used to BS on some evenings. Hugh picked his brain for a while with questions that gradually filled in enough info to build one himself. He said that Jones was a little upset so you will notice that Hugh always said he raced a Jones hydro rather than take the credid for what he built. Entrop did design them, but largely based on "hot" information. Wilbur copied Entrop's hulls and credited Hugh. They both gave the credit to the previous guy. This may be some of the confusion as the name isn't necessarily the builder.

As far as the boats themselves. I sent the dimensions that Hugh asked for and he said that Wilbur built it based on that. Another small detail is that both Jones and Entrop used "Anchorfast" brand nails that have an anchor actually stamped on the head. I think that Jones used stainless and Hugh used bronze, but I'm not fully sure on that as it didn't pertain to my work at the time. Wilbur used ring shank nails, but not anchorfast.

Now I write everything down so it is easy to reference. It is amazing how much stuff you forget!!!

Steve Roskowski

[Mark75H]

Steve that is pretty much the way I understood it to be. Evinrude's Starflite IV boat was described as built by McDonald collaboated on design between Hu and Wilbur (I think Jones was employed or on retainer with Kiekhaefer by the time they built the Starflite IV boat, so his name would be omitted on purpose by OMC press people)

[Mark75H]

Another detail:

As far as I can determine, Hu Entrop only built 5 cabovers. His original D and 4 more boats that he ran 6's and V-4's on

[oldalkydriver]

When Toprahanian and Glen Campbell and I went to Seattle's Green Lake for the Seafair Regatta in 1958, we spent lots of time with Entrop. Toprahanian was doing some work on an overdrive unit for Entrop. Hugh showed John how he worked the bugs out of the cab-over! He had an elaborate rack that went on top of an old station wagon. As I recall, it had all types of springs, gauges. He told us that the little rods on the front of the boat were adjustable weights. He would get up to speed on the freeway, take readings then stop the car. Make an adjustment and repeat. He told us "it was alot cheaper to pay speeding tickets then to rent a wind tunnel."
I don't know how true it is, but it sounded good at the time.:D

[Mark75H]

I don't know either. In the book about Kiekhaefer it says Entrop had an old Mercury Coupe that he transported his later boat from Seattle to Florida and back tied to the top. Maybe the station wagon wasn't up to that long of a trip.

The detail comes up in the book because Entrop's leave of absence from Boeing was up and Carl insisted he stay anyway. Carl threatened to fire any employee who helped Hu pack up and leave ... Hu eventually found someone hanging around Lake X who wasn't an employee to help (think it was Carl's son-in-law ... guess you can't fire your inlaws if they aren't employees)

[Ron Hill]

Jack told me he and Hu were wanting to go to the Alky Nationals, in McKeesport, PA, I think, and Carl wanted them to stay for the weather to get better for the press to see the run....Seems when they left Lake X they both knew they were fired...Brother-in-law?? Hmmm...Might have been Jack Leek's Brother-in-law, Burt Ross...Because, didn't Burt set the record???

I should call Jack Leek and ask him...Maybe, I will!

[smittythewelder]

Of Entrop's straightaway boats, I think Jones built the one that set the first FOH record of 107, Hu built the first two or three Starflites (plus the smaller R-12 that he used for racing), and McDonald built the Starflites 4 and 5. It's too bad Jim Hallum isn't web-connected, because he knows all of this stuff and a lot more.

Now, didn't Ron Jones build some of those cabover outboards from the early '60s on?

[Mark75H]

Entrop himself is credited over and over with actually building the first straightaway boat with credit on design theory going to Jones. I think Jones was on retainer with Kiekhaefer back then and was called to Lake X to give set up and prop advice. I have a letter Hu wrote to me some years back, in it I'm certain he says he built the 107 boat at his house.

Jones built the boat Burt Ross used to set the 115 mph record

[smittythewelder]

Thanks, Sam. But did Ted or Ron build the Burt Ross boat? I have an idea that Ron was building boats pretty early. I had an idea that Ron built the "Miss Burien" unlimited in 1959-60, for instance. I saw what I imagine was Ron's last alky boat, a gorgeous F Hydro for John Cowling, in 1973.

[Mark75H]

In Iron Fist Jeffery Rodengen says Ted Jones 'built' Ross's boat. Later it says Ron Jones was working with Kiekhaefer on a record run boat that never set a record around 1966 (I guess it was just secretly tested at Lake X).

I have been under the impression that by the late 1950's Ted was pretty much design and boats were built under his direction in his shop ... and that anything that came out of his shop was called a Ted Jones built boat regardless of whose hands did the work. With a shop building several Unlimiteds and scaling up to build prop riding three pointers for F alky and limited inboard hydros, I would be very surprized if Ted Jones' hands were solely responsible for any particular boat.

Chapter 29 is one of the best written chapters in Iron Fist ... concise but detailed

[Cameraboy]

Here is a D-Stock Hydro from Ron Jones, Jr. JR built this over the winter. All carbon fiber. I think this is Jeff Bernard driving. The guys involved with this project have commitments with the unlimiteds this summer, so I don't know if we'll see much of this beauty. I want to see the Tohatsu on it. :cool:

[Ron Hill]

Jack told me Ted Jones built Burt's boat, then he added, well Ronnie built. So, I gathered from our phone call, that Ted had a lot to do with the design, and Ron Jones, Sr. did the wood work.

Burt did not drive the boat that Jack and Hu had at Lake "X" with Carl. I guess that boat was hu's and Jack and Hu took to to the Alkie Nationals in McKeesport, PA (1957).

[Cameraboy]

Well, we have seen a lot of the big yellow boat this year. Troy Holmberg has been working it out. It now has a Tohatsu on the back. The first shot shows the original configuration. The second is Ron Jones, Jr putting the finishing touches on removing about 2 feet (yes, 2 feet) of rear shoes. Big performance improvement.

[BRIAN HENDRICK]

Recent pic of my 11' Jones CRH/DMH with M55H 'mule' on for testing. We were ready to go to Constantine AOMC meet, but had to cancel at the last minute.
We will be at the Clayton 'RB' in AUG. :)
The following are comments from Harry Pinner and his experience with a D Jones in FL .:cool:

"...Jones hydro? Back in '59 and '60, the Cadillac dealer's son had one. It ran good down the straightaway, but coming out of the corner it was slow. In 1960, he ran it in the Gold Coast Marathon from Miami to West Palm Beach (65 miles). By the time he got to West Palm Beach, his knees looked like hamburger, so I ran it back the next day. Came in 5th out of 200 boats.
[Q?...…how did u set up??]

".....we mostly ran parallel to the boat. I know (when) we ran the Jones parallel the front would float high. But never felt like it would blow over. I was only 155-160 at that time and I would lay my body on the wheel on the straightaway - 73 mph."

[BRIAN HENDRICK]

There is at least 50 years between those two D hydros.
'66' is a 2005 Giles, last boat he built [so far?].
The Jones was built in the mid '50s, but not sure. Hope to date it at the Clayton RB Regatta. The Giles don't like it when the Jones gets out of the barn ahead of it. :(
Pic of '66' , and crew, in the pits at Tweed, ON recently.
My driver, Spencer, [STU-Racer] is on the throttle and explaining something very important to us ol'geezers! :mad: But now forgot what he said.:confused:

[BRIAN HENDRICK]

I have not seen this boat in person, but sure looks like an OEM Ted Jones to me, bigger than my 'D',
so the 'F' probably.:cool:
It was owned by Bill Swift, but no idea where it is now.:confused:

[BRIAN HENDRICK]

Never did get this boat to a big meet, like Constantine or Clayton, but have been getting some time in on the water using a 40" stock motor. With a 150# driver, the boat airs out nicely, and drives like a Cadillac.:rolleyes: Some what sluggish in the corners, as it dumps air, and the sponsons plow. We are only doing about 60mph, with a very conservative set up.
I hope to get some pix of it at speed. It looks great, riding with the nose way up, and light all the way under. :eek:

[Ron Hill]

Ron Jones would know, but I think all the Cab Overs that had fiberglass cowling were Ron Jones built....

The ones I saw all had white fiberglass cowlings...

The top wood cowling that you think is a Ted Jones Cab Over...Why do you think this is Ted Jones??....Several suttle things lead me to believe this is a BACK YARD built boat...This era of boats was not the 1950's, well hell, late 1959... The Ron Jones were an improvement over the Entrop Cab Overs...but Sid Crafts put them out of business...and that was early '60's....

[BRIAN HENDRICK]

[QUOTE=RonHill]Ron Jones would know, but I think all the Cab Overs that had fiberglass cowling were Ron Jones built.... Maybe, but over here the 'expurts' tell me the fibreglass cowls were a TED Jones trade mark, technology from Boeing?

The ones I saw all had white fiberglass cowlings...
This one was blue before I sprayed it yellow.
Maybe it was white.

The top wood cowling that you think is a Ted Jones Cab Over...Why do you think this is Ted Jones??....Several suttle things lead me to believe this is a BACK YARD built boat...
This is why i am posting here, to hopefully get some factual info on these boats. Reson I think it could be a Ted Jones is a pic in a TJ brochure that looks like this boat, but could be a recreation.

This era of boats was not the 1950's, well hell, late 1959... The Ron Jones were an improvement over the Entrop Cab Overs...but Sid Crafts put them out of business...and that was early '60's....
Did the Ted Jones' not predate the Entrops and McDonalds? A pic of the shop floor shows a number of the o/b's under construction, but the latest unlimited is Thriftway Too, the only rear engine inboard in the pics.

[Mark75H]

No, the Jones boats did not predate the first Entrop or Entrop/McDonald

I think the first Jones was built to take the record back from Entrop when he set the NOA 114 mph record with the V-4; which I believe was set with the first McDonald/Entrop in March of 1960

I remember the picture you are talking about ... I always figured the Thriftway Too was there for storage/repairs/remodeling rather than construction

[Ron Hill]

"Did the Ted Jones' not predate the Entrops and McDonalds?"

Ok, where my head is on this: I felt Entrop only built boats for himself...and I thought Ted Jones "HELPED" Entrop as Ted had a LIFE TIME CONTRACT with Carl to build boats for ONLY Mercury, and he was paid well to do that...

Ronnie Jones, started building boats boats that were a little different, modern cowlings (figer glass) and we for sale as a for profit business...

Mac, Wilbur McDonald, had been a postman, I think, but loved to build boats and his early boat were copies of many other boats...His copies were EXACT, the only way to spot some of MacDonald's copies were that the plywood was darker (Stronger) than the originals...

We Jack Leek went to work at OMC, he hired Wilbur "MAC" McDonald to repair boats and build them. Wilbur and Leek worked closely on verious designs...

I have no personal knowledge of a McDonald "D" Cab Over....I know where a brand new, one race on it, there is a McDonald "C" Racing Runabout with a cloth deck, and I remember seeing several McDonald "SID CRAFT" D hydros... Mac ws a real artist with his wood working skills.....

That top boat, cockpit combings pieces, don't look like anything I saw in the Northwest in that ear....but maybe it was an early boat, and has ben redone...The sponson bottoms, from what I can see, don't look right either...

Cool boats, only drop Elgin Gate's Entrop "D" once...must have run 10 gallons of gas through it...It was at Irvine Lake.....I'd lay down in the cockpit and she'd start over backwards, and I'd jmp forward, lke "A Monkey on a Stick"....as they called it, and her tail would "POP"....and go like hell!!!

Every Entrop Cab Over I ever swa had a cloth cowling in front of the dash...