C, D Alky Deflectors - Magneto with belt idler pulley?

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

When rebuilding a 55H 3rd Port Quincy/Merc deflector with single ring Turners and gawd awful compression, the first time I tried to start it and doing so it snapped off the timing belt. I seen the same thing happen at a racesite to a Alky 44 on a Buyers hydro. Same thing happened the second time, so I went looking for a tighter belt in the pile I got finding 2 similar tighter ones out of some twenty new and used ones. I heard that someone had the same problem as well that the problem also happens with Mercs self energizing Lightning Ignition they used on some Merc 500s. That they resolved it by using an spring loaded idler pulley on the system to deal with slack belts or abrupt changes in belt tension. Does anyone have a picture of such an idle pulley setup system to stop belts from snapping so easy?

[Bob Rusnak]

When rebuilding a 55H 3rd Port Quincy/Merc deflector with single ring Turners and gawd awful compression, the first time I tried to start it and doing so it snapped off the timing belt. I seen the same thing happen at a racesite to a Alky 44 on a Buyers hydro. Same thing happened the second time, so I went looking for a tighter belt in the pile I got finding 2 similar tighter ones out of some twenty new and used ones. I heard that someone had the same problem as well that the problem also happens with Mercs self energizing Lightning Ignition they used on some Merc 500s. That they resolved it by using an spring loaded idler pulley on the system to deal with slack belts or abrupt changes in belt tension. Does anyone have a picture of such an idle pulley setup system to stop belts from snapping so easy?
I just built a 44 Mod engine using a Merc 500 for a base engine. I tried the stock Merc Lightning Energizer ignition and have not snapped a built except for the first time I tried to start it. It was a really worn belt and had the throttle opened too much. With a new belt and swinging the mag, the engine starts easy and have had no belt problem. I am goint to build another along with a C Mod Merc using the same ignition. I like the idea there are no points as the Magnito or a battery as with the Thunderbolt ignition. I think the key is to not lock the distributer in the advance position so it can bite. Bob Rusnak N-96

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

This slack belt problem is on the newer Merc 44 block, an Anniversary Special and it used the Lightening ignition system where the distributor is also the energizer instead of a magnetic flywheel its all in the swing out energiizer/distributor that has a trigger solid state box and that hockeypuck Merc coil. This slack belt problem exists, so I went cog hunting, came up with some nearly new/little worn cogs on both sides but still a slack belt being about 1/4 deflection that feels slack. It will break those two tighter belts whether its the Lightening system that has huge magnetic drag for what it is or the P4 magnetoes. When I used the swign out system I can't remember how many belts I snapped so I gave up my Lightenings back to the marina they came from and they phone me anytime they come across a P4 magneto in whole or major parts. I have not been back there and I am using P4 magnetoes because I got a good dozen and they don't snap many belts on these slackers like using the Lightenings did. I have 2 motors that are slack belted like this and somehow I gotta cure this. I never time higher than and between .265 to .280 maximum advance anyway (little performance differnces) and locked on 40s and 44s and the others never snap their belts, just these 2 slackers of which the one is the Anniversary Special Classic 44. I am rebuilding an old NOA registered Merc 40 cube Merc/Quincy Alky for a collector too and it also has the slack belt problem and he wants to run it on occassion so some kind of cure is needed on 3 fronts.

Its interesting that you are having success with the Lightenings, after 2 seasons here I gave up on them and that was still in the 1990s. I swam in parts for them and gave them all up to the marina a friend owns but I kept one real grundy system just to look at because its so sunbleached and decrepid, I felt like tossing it and its has just sat for years here on the shelf still, getting even dustier adding to its decriptude! When I saw what looked like them and then one having it all on a 44 Merc sold on eBay complete, I was shaking my head saying it can not be? I believe it was a motor assembled for sale by Fast Fred and it sold. That was the last I heard but even he used a smaller ignition coil on it than the big hockeypuck coil that normally goes on them.

I had a Merc with trigger box and 4 coils that required a magnetic flywheel that was near as heavy and draggy as the Merc/Mariner 2 carb 3 cylinder 65s and 70s. I believe that is why Merc/Mariner 44X stockers used factory aluminum racing flywheels instead of the casting and flexplate ferros type. Here magnetos are plentiful in my garage, so I don't even want to begin to screw with that system which I hear is not trouble free either?

[Bob Rusnak]

Bob,

Does the ignition you are using require a full flywheel with magnets? If it's what I'm thinking of it has 4 coils mounted on the side of the block towards the rear???
No, just a small rope plate is needed. The magnets are in the distributor. It is the same size as a Magnito with out the points. There is a small CD pack and a coil which mounts seperately. It came off the mid 1970's Merc 500 engines. If you need to see what it looks like I can post a picture of it on the engine...Bob N-96

[RichardKCMo]

No, just a small rope plate is needed. The magnets are in the distributor. It is the same size as a Magnito with out the points. There is a small CD pack and a coil which mounts seperately. It came off the mid 1970's Merc 500 engines. If you need to see what ir looks like I can post a picture of it on the engine...Bob N-96

Pic. please, David seems to be asking my questions,lol.
RichardF

[Bob Rusnak]

Pic. please, David seems to be asking my questions,lol.
RichardF
Hear are two pictures of the D Mod with the Energizer Ignition

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

That is basically the same way I toiled with it in your pictures, the CD, but Merc 55H stock racing flywheel instead and Keller rope plate instead but still used the big hockey puck coil after being advised that the small coils would overheat and fail??? so I stayed with it big. The core on a lightening similar to a P4?? Not really, its bigger/wider with a lot more drag than the P4 magneto. Same trigger box but distributor/energizer locked in BTDC degrees with throttle coming off the bottom carb bottom shaft output. Snapped belts and belt was slack to begin with along with a host of new and used belts tried. For you it, the CD system in the picts must obviously work, I got tired of broken belts and quit using it. It still snaps the odd belt with a P4 magneto because it still slack though now I use Merc 500 flexplate type cores instead of made for racing flywheels like for the Merc 30H and or 55H. I have this belt slackness on 2 others to varying degrees but the tensioner/idler setup I hear about but have not seen yet. Will have to see how automotive jocks deal with belts to get some idea on inventing a version I suppose.

[Bob Rusnak]

That is basically the same way I toiled with it in your pictures, the CD, but Merc 55H stock racing flywheel instead and Keller rope plate instead but still used the big hockey puck coil after being advised that the small coils would overheat and fail??? so I stayed with it big. The core on a lightening similar to a P4?? Not really, its bigger/wider with a lot more drag than the P4 magneto. Same trigger box but distributor/energizer locked in BTDC degrees with throttle coming off the bottom carb bottom shaft output. Snapped belts and belt was slack to begin with along with a host of new and used belts tried. For you it, the CD system in the picts must obviously work, I got tired of broken belts and quit using it. It still snaps the odd belt with a P4 magneto because it still slack though now I use Merc 500 flexplate type cores instead of made for racing flywheels like for the Merc 30H and or 55H. I have this belt slackness on 2 others to varying degrees but the tensioner/idler setup I hear about but have not seen yet. Will have to see how automotive jocks deal with belts to get some idea on inventing a version I suppose.
I had a C alky merc that used a simple ball bearing mounted on a cam style sleeve that would ride on the outside of the belt. It can be adjusted by loosening the attach bolt and rotating the bearing. This was used because the Magnito was fixed in the advance position and would bite when trying to start. I believe by rotating (swinging) the distributor will stop the belt breaking. These belts run year after year on pleasure engines with out any problems. I have not used this bearing on the D mod as I swing the disrtibutor. The bearing (idler pully) is very similar to the Konig rotary valve belt tension and alignment system....Bob N-96

[RichardKCMo]

Bob, what region do you race in ?
I live in KC Mo.area and go to some NBRA races,i've only seen a couple of non mag ignitions. It seems as though some sure have problems with mags.

I wonder about cost , i've heard some elect. ignitions are pricey.
Thanks for the pics.
Richard

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

I went to the local wreckyard this morning and seen some serpentine belt apps for the Ford Taurus V-6 in particular and what you described in your earlier post today is what I saw applied as you described. Just a bearing spindle fixed on an adjustable plate either stiff or spring loaded leaning on the reverse side of the belt on either side (carb or otherside) will do it like you described. With reading your post I went out to the garage into my bearing supplies and found that ideal bearing, the same being run under the cog pulley at the top of the magneto adapter assembly. Fashioning the the spindle and mounting plate even spring loaded on paper looks like an easy adaptation to mount either inboard or outboard crank wise off the front case. The only thing the Ford Taurus has is a pulley covering the bearing with a lip so the serpintine belt doesn't jump out, but that is un-necessary with a Merc 4 as the belt is well contained at the flywheel and at the magneto cogs. With thanks, idea has been verified.

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

I used to swallow my tongue at what newer model Merc solid state ignitions cost over the years but being in stock outboard for so long insulated one to magnetos, be they flywheel 20H, Fairbanks Morse for KG9, 40H, 30H and 55H and then the Merc P4s afterward, so all that new stuff though around by then and onward had no applications to stock racing engines. Magnetos never got significantly pricier unless you were starving for one and the seller knew it. Now they are anything from near giveaway to seller greed extreme. So are the Merc Thunderbolt and Lightening systems and they can be modified to run on 2 RC 7.5 volt stick batteries instead of a 12 volt or more dryland lead/acid cell by changing the coil(s) out with updated automotive stuff that costs peanuts by marine comparisson. Merc has gone the 4 stroke route, so now it is increasingly so that any money for old technology is better than no cash flow at all, letting the part gather dust until some looker comes along which could be years and is decreasing exponentially as the years go on. The reason more people use FM and P4 magnetos on Merc 4s is that they are mechanical, very well understood and trouble free in terms of value for effort and dollar spent. I suppose some day those that understood mechanical magnetos will all go to the happy hunting ground and the only thing understood will be the solid state. We are not there yet and depending where you are and what you know that time is a long way coming. I got more than a dozen magnetos and some battery/CD Merc ignitions left over from Alky Loopers and Deflectors but they now sit until the magnetos are totally wasted or I am and no one else here wants them. The same exist every where and even there. It depends on what you want to do or believe in? :)

[Bob Rusnak]

Bob, what region do you race in ?
I live in KC Mo.area and go to some NBRA races,i've only seen a couple of non mag ignitions. It seems as though some sure have problems with mags.

I wonder about cost , i've heard some elect. ignitions are pricey.
Thanks for the pics.
Richard
I am in Region 2 on Long Island. My son Don is in Wertern Pa. and races the D Mods. There are several races in Region 2 that we can race. I have 4 or 5 of these Merc Lightning Ignitions. They are not all that hard to find as there were many of these Merc 500 engines made from the mid 1970's. I usually try to grab as many of these engines as I can to get the crankshafts and rods from them. Not shure of the cost of new parts (if available) as I never had to buy anything. I carry a spare pack, coil and distributor to every race but never had to replace anything. So far so good with the belts. Still on the same one....Bob N-96

[RichardKCMo]

Thanks Bob, i've only seen 2 motors without mags in several yrs. here and it seems pretty labor intensive to keep them running.
I know one dude had like 8 mags at a race this yr.

One of the fellas here was fooling with stock 44s to run in D mod but that was before this tohatsu thing , that was the last i seen this ign. system.
RichardKCMo

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

You got me thinking about that last Lightning setup I have gathering dust on the shelf. Because your doing it, I am going to clean it up and try it again but I will definitely use the added belt tensioner pulley in any case just to play it self with belts. I hear mag belts for Mercs are over $30 bux new and I still got quite a few but why waste them. Have you ever tried to find out what the Lightnings magnetic drag costs in terms of engine horsepower consumption? The Merc P4 is supposedly under 2% when your at peak rpm, what could the Lightning be?

Running a distributor/batter powered ignition system on 2 RC 7.5 volt battery sticks in series firing a Honda auto coil at 30,000KV output has next to no drag because its a total loss voltage system will last about 30 minutes clear at 14 volts. Recharges with a flash charger in less than 30 minutes. With those its just bearing drag and almost un-measurable.

I keep all the magnetos and any more I get immediate overhaul and tagging. A friend of mine came over with a really clean and nice in condition Fairbanks Morse so I quickly relieved him of it with a refreshed Merc P4 off the shelf because the FMs look like similar to a Lucas but are a lot better than the Anzani's Lucas magnetos by every stretch of the imagination! Gawd they are awful but look on all the stuff they put Lucas electrics on over the years!

[Bob Rusnak]

You got me thinking about that last Lightning setup I have gathering dust on the shelf. Because your doing it, I am going to clean it up and try it again but I will definitely use the added belt tensioner pulley in any case just to play it self with belts. I hear mag belts for Mercs are over $30 bux new and I still got quite a few but why waste them. Have you ever tried to find out what the Lightnings magnetic drag costs in terms of engine horsepower consumption? The Merc P4 is supposedly under 2% when your at peak rpm, what could the Lightning be?

Running a distributor/batter powered ignition system on 2 RC 7.5 volt battery sticks in series firing a Honda auto coil at 30,000KV output has next to no drag because its a total loss voltage system will last about 30 minutes clear at 14 volts. Recharges with a flash charger in less than 30 minutes. With those its just bearing drag and almost un-measurabl
I keep all the magnetos and any more I get immediate overhaul and tagging. A friend of mine came over with a really clean and nice in condition Fairbanks Morse so I quickly relieved him of it with a refreshed Merc P4 off the shelf because the FMs look like similar to a Lucas but are a lot better than the Anzani's Lucas magnetos by every stretch of the imagination! Gawd they are awful but look on all the stuff they put Lucas electrics on over the years!
Keep me informed if you have luck with the Energizer system. I guess it does grab some HP from the engine but do not know how much. Right now I am looking for reliablity in the system. The Magnito's with the points work real well but you have to be on top of the point's. They must be clean and gapped correctly. The battery Thunderbolt system is real good and draws no HP from the engine. I have used it in the past on Loopers and a FA Konig with great sucess. The weak link is the battery and have missed a few races due to an undercharged battery. Don is going to run the D mod in Franklyn PA next week so we will see if the Lightning system performes well again.

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

I was out there today just to get my grand daughter her BMX. I went over to the shelve with all the ignition stuff on it with that Lightning engergizer/distributor on the end of the shelf. I gave it a twist and there is a real sharp resistance to it, so I went to its left and twisted the Merc P4 and it is just less than half, then the far left had the Fairbanks Morse for Merc 4 cylinder mags and they were just a little less than the Merc P4!

Its goes without saying much that you got to watch the points gaps, point condition as well as that of the condenser and general cleanliness in there because that grease felt slowly makes a mess anyway. What is remarkable these days as the plastics get older, I am finding more magnetos being abandoned because their replacers or marine overhaulers never put a dab of grease on the point pivot post making the bakelite hole dry out oval and the points go outa wack. Their explanation was probably that the engine was getting old.

Some users and racers were getting missing sounds out of the engine in what was an apparently in good order and even overhauled magneto only to find that no one spotted the rotor problems. rotors come in about 4 colors so far and had burned through. The spark was gounding through the rotor right into the top of the rotor shaft holding it. Looks like a blueish powder on the shaft and in the rotors splines. People I know gave up on their fishing Mercs just because it was old and would not run anymore???? No, the marine dealers wanted to sell newer engines! Its funny when they tell me, I can have the magnetos but don't let it be known where you got them from. People would talk if they knew some people could actually overhaul, fix and maintain them. :)

You get funny looks from people with big money V-6 power anything STV and the such being smoked by some old looking Merc with no flywheel, gawd awful noisey pipes using a magneto and they didn't look like a Joe Hunt or a Vertex either!! :)

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

I have and seen for Merc P4 Magnetoa - red, yellow-orange, grey and white rotors with brass leads on them. Of the 3 magnetos I just got last Friday, one had a black plastic rotor and that is a first time for me ever seeing a black one.

I cleaned up and mounted the Merc 500 Lightning system in a test frame I made out of an old drill press stand and drive and got it cranking an honest 30,000 KV but I had to hand kick the system because the Lightning energizer had so much drag it made the little drive motor growl to start it moving, so I helped it with a push. That drive motor is perfectly fine for starting, rotating for setting up and testing the Fairbanks Morse FMs for Merc or the Merc P4s. I kept the big coil on it though I have a couple of coild left over from an older Merc 25SS. I am going to throw a Honda performance automotive coil on it and see what happens.