What Does "MOD-VP" Mean? Evolution/History Lesson [Archive]

march3stv

11-30-2004, 08:39 PM

Ron and Ted -

Everyone talks "MOD-VP", in reference to everything and anything today.

ex: Classified ads: 22ft MOD-VP bottom...

What does "MOD-VP" really mean for the younger folks (<40) that weren't there for the evolution? These folks are the future of our loved sport!

1. There has "always" been a class that existed which promoted and sanctioned (APBA/OPC) the highest production HP outbooard available to the public on a production runabout hull. At least as far as my existence...

F
H
JP (Family J)
VP
MOD-VP

as the motors evolved, so did the classes and the story....

What does that mean? I don't know for sure, but you two and many others can shed the light on the evolution of the real deal...non-true tunnel boat hull classes (don't get me wrong, I love them also! - we're on the MOD-VP Forum).

I'll just start at...(exact dates?)
J-Production / Family J (73' thru ---) - 150hp - 15-16ft V bottoms
1975 - OMC released 200 V6
1977-78 - "VP" - 200hp "STOCK" - 18-20ft V bottoms (mostly OMC)
1979 - MVP - V6 "Modified" Motors (moving rules target) - 18-20ft "V" Bottoms only
1980? - Ron Hill put an outboard bracket on a center-pod jet tunnel (19 Daytona - oops it worked! The MOD-VP class (world) had suddenly changed!
1981 - St. Louis - Powerboat Mag Shootout - What a trip! Everyone had air entrapment designs, even if it was glued in PVC pipe for tunnels (sorry Howard!).

Ron - you're the teacher, tell the "real" story (with pics) and shed light on what MOD-VP really means! (and why it died) I know Ted has hundreds on photos to share as you do -- post them damnit!

If I'm off on the years (memory only), it's yours to set it straight!

Set it up and knock it down...it's a great story that not everyone knows! If anyone can paint the picture...this group can!

We need it this type of racing back...it was the BEST!!!!

Thanks for the memories...You're the teacher...

Now, class! "SHUT-UP" (and listen) - Thank-you!

chill

12-02-2004, 11:17 PM

I was probably only seven or eight when John ran that Hydrostream in the Parker Nine Hour or should I say Seven Hour. We raced like hell to get to Blue Water only to find out the bottom blew out just after the first turn. “I think John was hanging out looking for a smoke.” Getting rid of all that gas was a bitch. The best memories I have of boat racing was the Parker Nine Hour, we really need to bring it back. If you really take a look at boat racing today as compared to the old Mod VP days as well as the early Nine Hour days, boat racing is close to being nothing more then a museum of old facts and pictures. Lets not let that happen.

march3stv

12-03-2004, 02:50 PM

Heres another - 1988 St. Louis

Right to left...
Ron Hill
Myself
John Castelli (driver)

Don't know the names of the other guys...hell it was 16 years ago...

march3stv

12-03-2004, 02:52 PM

one more...

Ted March

12-03-2004, 04:19 PM

Driving Al Zink's Mod VP Allison. Parker 1981. Picture was published in Trailor Boats.

Ted March

12-03-2004, 04:24 PM

Ron says he's going to California

Ted March

12-03-2004, 04:30 PM

A I remember it.

Rocket

12-04-2004, 06:31 AM

Dosen't Mod VP = Modified V-Hull right? :confused: Here's my STV MOD-VP

http://www.hotboatpics.com/pics/data/500/5116DSCF0018_stv.BMP

Jeff Lytle

12-04-2004, 07:18 AM

Modified V Production

march3stv

12-04-2004, 07:39 AM

march3stv

12-04-2004, 07:53 AM

If you look back to my first post / photo..that's me (red had) and my late brother (Bruce) next to me (2 blue shirts), we just changed to a longer tuner (using the Mercury Racing hoist) after Johnny C had an awesome Saturday...Kim Howard "insisted" that the tuner we were running was too short. Never discount that man's word! That was also the days when Mercury Racing would give "special" poeple "special" ECU's... we all know the rest.

Shortly after that picture was taken (it was getting late on Saturday evening), Mike Seebold "ripped" into the pits in a black Porche Carrerra (tail wing) stopped, then nailed it and literally popped a wheely - stopped at the Merc trailer and jumped out of the car and said "what up boys". He was on his way out to knock the town down. If I I remember correctly he won on Sunday!

Rocket

12-04-2004, 01:44 PM

Rocket - That's my point...Mod VP was a class prior to the modified V hulls (air entrapment tunnels)...it started as V bottom class with modified motors...spin-off from VP. The Eliminator Daytona 19 (jet hull) changed everything!

Ahhhhhh Thanks! I've been on this forum for 1/2 a day and I already learned something! :D Now I'm informed! :cool:

Thanks for the forums, Ron! ;)

Miss BK

12-04-2004, 01:55 PM

Heres another - 1988 St. Louis

Right to left...
Ron Hill
Myself
John Castelli (driver)

Don't know the names of the other guys...hell it was 16 years ago...

The guy in the white hat is Mike Basso, Sr. (The west coast Tohatsu distributor back in the late 80's - Sport C heyday). Cant think of his company's name right now....

Miss BK

12-04-2004, 01:57 PM

One of the earliest Mod-VP's....

Fred Bowden, Havasu 1982

Ron Hill

12-04-2004, 03:18 PM

Western Engine Distributors...Thye did $8,000,000 a year in VOLVO parts, when the got theTohatsu Distributorship.....I told them we should race those things... Mike Basso Sr. worked at Western Engine, he was a big promoter of the Mini Boats...

He and his son Mike Basso Jr, own Sun Country Marine in Ontario...The sell...well boats....largest dealer of not Monterey's, not Sea Ray...Anyway, they've done well since the Western Engine days!!!

Miss BK

12-04-2004, 05:42 PM

Basso is in the picture in Post #3

This one:

march3stv

12-05-2004, 05:28 AM

That's got to be one of last the times Fred ran an OMC in Mod VP...1983 St. Louis, he ran a Merc 2.4/Witchcaft...

Then the Merc/Stokers....

march3stv

12-05-2004, 06:52 AM

Al and John towed the first Baker RST (Rally sport Tunnel) to St. Louis fresh out of the mold...barely in solid form (1981). We brought a **** load of props to the race and Al tested and finally ran one of them, (actually a Hill prop...imagine that!) and he won the "Powerboat Radar Shootout!". One of our good friends, Lonnie Hoke (Marine Engineering - Hydraulic lifts and set-backs), put his hand deep in his pocket Sunday night after Al then won the Powerboat shootout finals on Sunday and hooked it to to back of his motorhome and to Iowa it went...That was a great weekend!

march3stv

12-05-2004, 07:58 AM

Hey Chad,

Do you remember this year? Bruce (my brother) and I kept screwing with you (all good fun) all weekend...you would get pissed at and sit at the edge of the water and just throw stones into the lake...you were a "toe-head" (white hair!). I think you were about 6 then...

That was the year of the 20' Lavey with the V8 - ran Champ boat - pretty funny! I remember the fuel stop (Nascar style) that year because the water was unseasonable cold (Turkey weekend) and everyone was bitching about goin in waste high when Castelli came in for fuel...no offense Ron, but I recall looking back from the water and seeing you tying down your "Hill Marine" helium blimps / balloons...I was thinking this guy has a priority issue...HaHa!

Kim Howard (Sleek/Merc) won Mod VP that year...hangn' it high as kite...and he also won just about every other race that year...that was fun to watch!

Ron Hill

12-05-2004, 05:00 PM

I delegate!!! My job was NOT to fuel!!!! (Especially in cold water)...I'm delicate!!!

Ron Hill

12-13-2004, 08:17 PM

Let me start with the name... APBA had a class called VP. V Production....

I wrote some rules for the Enduro....Division V was any Jet, Vee Drive or Outboard with full production gearcase. The outboards at this time were only 99 cubic inches...

Here is Al Stoker in 1978, winner Division V, Mod Vp was a class, but was not yet called MOD VP!!!

Boat was actually, a Witch Craft.

march3stv

12-13-2004, 09:04 PM

I'll see Dad next week for the holidays and fire up the scanners...lot's of great photos and memories...hundreds and hundreds!

I have a few shoeboxes myself...

This was a great evolution in production hull racing...The V6 evolution that started with VP (not VP racing fuel...pay attention, damnit!)...Ron just fuel this thread...there's a lot there for you to share!

ps: I'm so lame that I'm uploading photos from my laptop on the road...HBO sucks tonight!

Photo: Alan Stoker - the first year running the capsule...

Ron Hill

12-15-2004, 09:11 PM

and I ain't been drinking...

To do any justice to the HISTORY of MOD VP, a man needs to understand the HISTORY of the Parker 9 Hour...
Realisticly, when OMC had me race the Enduro in 1967 there were four FACTORY OMC BOATS and the rest of the 126 boats were INDEPENDENTS. Many were whiskey drinking, cigar smoking, men amoung men with plenty of money...

Red Adair...Texas Oil Well Fire Fighter, they made a movie of his life.
Vic Edelbrock....Edelbrock Speed Equipment.

Louis Unser racing Engines....brother of Bobby, Al and Jerry... Unser (Engien builder, not a racer)
Lou Brummett, Mandella Boats
Bob Nordskog, Nordskog Ovens (Long before Powerboat Magazine, something I doubt ever showed a profit)...
Schiada Boats
Eliminator Boats
Howard Boats
Aqua Craft Boats
Stevens Boats.
Ed Olsen, Bakery Owner...Boat Named "CREAM PUFF"

Bob Patterson, Patterson Boats, twin engine or allison power
Rudy Raymos, Rayson Craft Boats....Twin Ford Cobras or an Allison..
Tim Wallace

Several things all these guys had in common...ONE they were INBOARDERS and most sold boat to skier who might become a racer, in they didn't they could watch a boat like their's run up and down the river...

They had a lot of chrome. They were noisy. They were expensive...And as I was just looking at the 1966 Boat Racing Guide, it didn't even have OUTBOARDS listed ...

Keith Black, Halibrand, Moon Equipment, Casale, Kenny Harman Cams,Bell Auto Parts...Joe Hunt Magnetos...he owned an Indy Car.. These are the Who's Who in boating/cars during the 1960's...

Along come some kicks (Outdoor Motors)...these guys let them run...what, they go 50 MPH? Don't make any noise??? Just keep them out of ther acers way...

Well as the Outboards started adding motors, two, three and four, they drew some guys with money...

In 1969, my dad and Kenny Harman got into such an arguement, I thought they might fight. Kenny finally walked out of the restaurant. They arguement, the said my dad, who he'd know for 25 years was a CRAZY SOB....He had the NERVE to say he thought his kid would lead the race tomorow!!!!! The Parker 9 Hour is going to be lead by an OUTBOARD...Go to Hell Russ was Kenny's last words...(That night, they were friends forever...AND I did lead the Enduro the next day, only four laps, but 54 miles...

The Enduro was changed forever....

The next year, OMC twook 8-9 of the top spots, all twins...Of course, I thought it SO COOL to beat the fire out of INBOARDS....their noise, their chrome, their women....

But inthe next year or two, the entry list dropped, the Red Adair's wer gone, the Vic Edelbrock, Power Oil Company had gone Offshore Racing....Nordskog tried OUTBOARDS.... Rudy messed with Outboards... But now single engine FACTORU BOAT CONTROLLED PARKER...

About 1973, or 1974, I was Region Chairman of APBA and I wrote new rules for PArker...See APBA use to pay their Chairmen by the number of races a Region had....I din't want the enduro dying on my watch...

I created five Divisions... and One Division was Inboard and any VP Outboard under 100 cubic inches... Ron Hill Props offered trophies for all five Divisions and the Enduro had a growth in entries that year...

**** Keep in mind the boating world was changing an Flat Bottoms were no longer the fastest boat on the river...Outboard V-6's were beat the Jet Drives for sure and most flat bottoms, if you raced them more than 100 feet..

Scott, are you getting a feel of what happened???

More later...

march3stv

12-15-2004, 09:17 PM

Get it off you chest, damnit! It's early on the West Coast!

Gb821

12-16-2004, 07:35 PM

Hi guys, long time boat race brat here. I and my family are from region 11 APBA, northern california area. I posted a picture in MOD VP pictures of my father, Lynn Alan Harris. He ran MOD VP or Possably it was Family ski (J) class. I am looking for anyone who may have known and or raced with my father. I dont have much history of my dads racing a few articles and a few pictures thats it. I am in texas racing an E hydro and enjoying it, See pic in members rides. I would love to speek to those who may have spent time with my father, I have a lot of memories of racing and the times back then, the times frame would be 1965 to 1975 or so. This seems to be a great site, Ron is doing a great job bringing it all together here. Thanks all and have a great holliday. Glenn Bracy

march3stv

12-16-2004, 07:38 PM

:p How much do you think fuel consumption (inboard vs. outboard) played into it (9 hours - overall) once the O/B's were turning competitive lap times with the iron heads...less stops!

Ron Hill

12-16-2004, 09:10 PM

In 1967, I was running almost 70 on my 75 mph Keller. 1968, I saw 92 on OMC's Keller....1969 when I lead, I could see 110 on MY Keller... the inboards were still going 75...maybe 80, I was 30 mph faster...

Once PAndora's Bos was opened, the inboars, with their chrome, flash ans style, went Ski racing or Offshore racing......

Bottom Line: Where is the FLASH TODAY???????? Poker Runs!!! Flat Bottom racers were the Pker Runners of their era...

Most exited the sport, some stayed..Lou Brummet was killed at Elsinore...Bob Ellis, in a Hallett hydro, was decapitated in a first lap accident, where he hit a dock...Nordskog ran io AND AN OUTBOARD....Red Adair bought a WING....
Tiny Tim, Tim Wallace quit, but Mike bought an outboard... Bill Cooper died of cancer...Doug Fendler was killed in a flat bottom, his brother went Unlimited racing.

Boat Racing's History, is much like the world, change is ehat you can expect...but don't expect the government to help you!!!!!

Once the inboard we gone, the Outboard factories cut their support.....by then all the independents had left the sport...

Ron Hill

12-16-2004, 09:26 PM

Dick Sherrer and I had known each other since 1957, when my brother had a 1957 Plymouth....My brother helped a guy named Johnny Cordes beat Dick Sherrer......My brother married his sister (Johnny's sister)..and was happily married for forty years until she died of cancer....

In the '50's Dick Sherrer raced Evinrudes in WOA (Western Outboard Association), I didn't like Evinrudes, even though my father had raced them.....I liked MERCURY MOTORS....

Well, by 1975-76 , Dick and I were friends...I was probably the only one that called him "SUPER DICK" to his face.... Dick didn't like FACTORY RACE TEAMS anymore than I did, even though he'd bought Bobby Massey's Mercury Dealership, after Bobby's death...

COBRA had their monthly meetings at Dick's shop...I'd go and tell them how good APBA was....even though, they had new members every month and seemed to have a cool plan...(One race a month, 12 races a year, Production Outboards)....

As Region 12 Chirman, I'd convinced COBRA to become part of APBA....

Dick and I discussed the Enduro and noted that the new Merc V-6 and Evinrude V-6 was selling and could out run the jets on the river..... Dick had put a V-6 powerhead on his T2X Leg and beat the fire out of the 100 ichers, until his sponson came off and he slid up into the parking lot...

We both decided that the FACTORIES looked out for themselves, and that not only did Mercury like to win, but they liked to say WHO WOULD WIN WITH A MERCURY...and I KNEW FIRST HAND THAT OMC HAD THE SAME BELIEFS.....

Dick and I wrote the rules, for MOD VP..... SIMPLE:

1. Production parts in WARRANTEEABLE CONDITION....
2. Nose cones
3. V-6 PRODUCTION PARTS ONLY
4. MOD VP bottom, center pod to be equal or lower than the outside runners.. we both knw outboard blew over...easily, mod vp bottom seemed to be the best of both worlds...

This would become Divison IV at Parker...

Al Stoker, young, handsome, family owned an Evinrude Dealership, won some of the early races.... Bob Brown, wrote article about Al.......He became a HERO....MOD V BALLOONED to almaost 40 boats at the Havasu Classic, not like the 120 boats when Ralph Evinrude put up $50,000 and sponsored 25 boats....but 40 independents, most with Evinrudes or Johnsons.....

Come 1980 ish...

Ron Hill

12-17-2004, 11:34 AM

Once Havsu Single Engine World Championship collapsed..Tunnel boat racing, MArathon Racing was basically gone!!!

Havasu had sold all their land...Ralph Evinrude told me he was the largest stock holder in the Havasu Land Company and that he'd made more money selling land than he ever did selling outboard motors...

Ron Hill

12-17-2004, 11:37 AM

77 Mike Wallace, 190 Billy Seebold..199 Bill Petty, 148 Dick Sherrer...

It wasn't long after this race that engines became hard to get, especially good ones...

It was 1974, that we started the Divisions at Parker...

Ron Hill

12-17-2004, 11:39 AM

We won Parker overall in 1978, in 1979...Freddy went to work for Mercury, but we, with Brad Miller's money could not buy a fuel injected V-6 Mercury...Brad had enough money to buy OMC.....but we could not buy a motor like Seebold's, Bentz....Fountain...so, we exited tuneel boat racing...

I went MOD VP racing where you HAD to run production parts...

Ron Hill

12-18-2004, 09:26 AM

Charles Revson made cosmetics, he's dead now, but he wrote a book called
"Fire and Ice" in he book he explained he wasn't selling cosmetics, he was selling HOPE....Every woman that saw his beautiful women in his ads HOPED they would be that beautiful.....

He believed that PACKAGING WAS EVERYTHING.

He explained that he like, Lady Clariol hair products but notes they were last in sales... He bought the company and took the product off the market. He doubled the size of the package and doubled the price and rasied sales to the number one hair conditioning product on the market...

Bob Brown, through Powerboat Magazine made Al Stoker a TRUE AMERICAN HERO, someone that everyone would want to be...New V-6 motors with no FACTORY DOMINANCE gave hope that they could race, equally, with everyone and maybe be like Al Stoker...

We had maybe 30 Mod VP's Nationwide, and 15 at local races....Stoker missed the local races usually, but at the Big races he was the guy to BEAT...and he usually won...

MOD VP BOTTOMS WEREM'T new to Jet Boat racers, but they were new to east of California....V-6 outboards were not really selling, but promoting racing wasn't hurting sales... and as I said before, Jimmy Jost sold us engines for 60% off, after memo billing them for a year....

So, we could sell our old motor at a profit and borrow a new one...for nesxt season... New motors brought HOPE for, and I was one most of the time, BACK MARKERS that this year, I'm going to win more local races and I'm going to win Parker and Havasu.....

Mercury on had 122 Cubic inches and Johnson/Evinrude had 161, so really the Merc were non players...

Then comes Freddy Hauenstein.....and Mercury Racing....

Ron Hill

12-19-2004, 01:31 PM

Stoker was advertising in Powerboat, so besides doing well in MOD VP they (Powerboat) saw potential in MOD-VP.... So, did Mercury, they came in slowly with only a little help...

Louis Collins came to Havasu, was the fastest boat there and he was the only Merc. I alwasy thought Freddy built the motor, Louis said he did....Seems I recall overhearing a phone converstion, after the first day of racing at Havasu, and the man (Louis) was talking to another man (???) about jetting....Seems to me the only person not at Havasu that year, who would now about Mercury Racing Motors, would have been Freddy....

OMC stepped help their support, Stoker built engines, I know Stoker, as an Evinrude dealer, got help from OMC Factory...Mercury had guys racing bridgeports, when they claimed they didn't make them, Stoker used the Triple C crank and was the only Even Fire OMC.

Mercury built and actual MOD VP motor with nose cone.

AND they listed all HIGH PERFORMANCE PART IN EVERY DEALER'S list, which, in effect, made all racing parts "PRODUCTION"... This is where Dick Sherrer and I should have said, NO....Production parts aren't CCC cranks, and aren't racing pistons" But we didn't. The class was strong, Stoker put a capsule in his boat and was able to win races with it....Things looked good....

Then, someone built and tunnel boat and put a pod in it...It looked like a tunnel boat...but was much slower...but it was faster than our Sleek Crafts, our Laveies, our Hydrostreams...

Then, the topper for me, was the OPC Commission allowed racing heads on the 2.4 Mercury and the Yamaha had to run stock blocks....Mercury rented motors off the truck that were faster than anything we had ever seen, but you couldn't buy them. Ted Bravo, Muscle Boats, finished third in Minnesota, looked at the RENTED Motor and said he didn't think it was legal...It passed inspection...He was a Mariner dealer, so he said he'd buy the motor...it wasn't for sale...that was Muscle Boat's last MOD VP race.

You had to have STOCK BLOCKS and Mercury said what was stock and you had to have a boat that looked like a tunnel...Where had MOD VP gone???

Stoker sold 58 MOD VP ski boats one year.......

It was 1989, my wife was tired of the MINI BOAT BS, noted otherwhere here...I was tired of MOD VP....Speeds went up, people got killed, expenses went out of control and anyone in there right mind knew only a few people had the GOOD STUFF...

I blame myself, for not saying to APBA....wait.....this is Dick Sherrer's and my class....and this is how it will be...except we had NO POWER!!!!

1. Boats will look like ski boats
2. Boat will have capsules
3. 100 is fast enough, we'll slow them down with transom heights...
4. Motors will be off the regular assemblyline and Dick Sherrer and I will tell YOU what is STOCK.

Picture is 1967...One of four OMC entires, of 126 entries, only four factory boats...Look out when the government comes to help you!!!!

Ron Hill

12-20-2004, 09:13 PM

Big John of Sea Witch marine, mixes our fuel...

Ron Hill

12-20-2004, 09:15 PM

Sally, Big John's wife, after scoring at Parker...Our PDQ Sleek,is on the trailer was a very broken motor...We were leading with 30 minutes left....ruined a new short block...no parts left, not even a crank....

march3stv

01-01-2005, 05:23 PM

Ron Hill and John Castelli - Eliminator/V8

Ron Hill

01-01-2005, 05:41 PM

Bob Leach brings this brand new V-8 Evinrude to Havasu...John Castelli and me are going to test it....(John and me both could have been brain surgeon had wenot spent our time racing boats...

Anyway, we get in the mother idle out passed the 5 MPH Zone and nail the throttle...She takes off so fast whe almost throws us in the back seat....at about 80.....she just won't go any faster....

We decide, another prop, big one...We take off, she almost throws us in the back seat...but about 84 she won't go any faster....

I tell John, "She must be blowing out. When we get her up to speed, get in the back and look at the gearcase...see if the prop is in a bubble...

John says, "He doesn't see a bubble...maybe I should look....So John is going about 85 and I'm sticking my head over the transom looking at the gearcase...

Hell with it, we decide she sounds like she's loaning up...Let's go put a smaller prop on....This time, the boat really does a "Wheelie" on take off and I can harly hold the wheel to about 75.....then, she flattens out...I stop..We decide, we need to make a long run, maybe she'll clean out as it seems to have good low end, but maybe the top end jets are too fat...

So we go down the river about 10 miles at 75 MPH....

As it is getting DARK...we say, "Wow, every prop turned 6250 RPM....wonder if this sucker has a rev limiter????

She did!!! We got the rev limiter off...and with a light boat, John went through the kilo at 118...without a capsule...I sold the boat and decided that was too fast for my friends to be going...without a capsule...

Well, it wasn't the first day I wasted fooling with boats!!!!

Mark Poole

01-24-2005, 09:41 AM

Mod-VP was boat racings best link to the public. NASCAR fans go to watch Ford vs. Chevy vs. Dodge. How many average people go to a boat race and even know what a Burgess, DAC, Velden or Seebold is? Many of the fans at an IOGP race were there to see production boat names such as Allison, Hydrostream, Sleekcraft and STV compete. I know, I was there and heard everyone else talking about it. There were more Mod-VP fans there than Champ. I think part of the problem was that Mod-VP stole a lot of Champ boat thunder. On top of that, put a fast OMC out there and OMG! we can't have that!! Quick, somebody change the rules!!

Ron Hill

01-26-2005, 08:06 PM

They always said the South would rise again...but I believe that MOD VP will rise again.....

Do you thin King Richard (Richard Petty) ever had more horse power than the Ford's or Chevy's.

MOD VP will return , as STOCK OUTBOARD, and it will be in MARATHONS...

Ron Hill

02-02-2005, 07:58 PM

Chris has been working under contract with Polaris Personal Water Craft for ten years....to quote him he says....or close...Snowmobiles, Offroad Racing and Moto Cross has grown, and Boat racing has taken a "DIVE"....

Moto Cross has a FOUNDATION...125's and 250's...

Offroad has a VW base...Snowmobile has???

Chris thinks he has a formula for a FOUNDATION to bring back MOD VP....And he'll send it to me to post!!!!

I'm ready toi go MOD VP Racing...

Questions from Bush..(Chris, not George)...How many Chevy parts on Jeff Gordan's Chevy??? Answer: ZERO

Forgot the other question..

Oh, The most popular racing series in American used what system to put fuel into their engines??? Anwers: NASCAR, carbs, because a carb can be controlled...

Mark Poole

02-03-2005, 05:37 PM

The Key to the success of the class will be to come up with good class rules and then LEAVE THEM ALONE! Lock the rules for at least five years. The only thing that should be changed are those things pertaining to driver safety. What is so complicated about hull size, weight and cubic inches? So what if brand X does not make an engine that maximizes the rules? If it becomes popular enough then maybe they will realize that they need to. This is how things were done in outboard racing's glory days. Remember SE, FJ, SJ? I remember the old 100 c.i. V bottom class. Most guys ran Mercs but it was not uncommon to see an OMC or a Chrysler show up that would give them a run for their money.

hydroc888

02-03-2005, 09:37 PM

Dont you relalize that the rules are made AFTER the motors are made and who can put up the most money to get there motor in first place and they dont care a bit about the stock classes , thats why the stocks all run yamatos . Boat racing needs to get out of the manufactures pockets. There are a ton of AMERICAN made motors out there that would put on a good show without the YAMATOS being there if there was classes for them , but APBa is in the deep pockets of the manufactures and wont change things. WHY IS STOCK 90 % JAPANISE MOTORS. Answer that question and I will shut up .
Jack

Mark Poole

02-03-2005, 10:31 PM

I guess I should have clarified that I was talking OPC. What this sport needs is to throw away the rules and start from scratch.

Go to an tunnel boat race. SST 45 nothing but OMC.....out comes SST 120 nothing but Mercury.....out comes SST 60 nothing but OMC.....out comes F1 nothing but Mercury. Now....HOW STUPID IS THIS??? One of the things that has hurt this sport more than anything else is no manufacturer competition! Manufacturer competition has always been the backbone of great racing. How many fans would F1 car racing have if there were only Ferraris on the track?? European race fans would overthrow the government if you did that to their racing.

Rusrog

02-04-2005, 07:10 AM

don't like to get beat. If the narrow minded manufacturers would look beyond the winners circle for just a minute you might see that change but they don't. The manufacturers want their motor in the winners circle no matter what. It has happened time and time again. OMC came out with the V-8 and pumped money into the sanction so that the courses got longer and the short legged Mercury's couldn't compete. Then Mercury came out with the T-4 but wouldn't build enough of them to get legal and instead of building a few extra they went to court and argued until the motor was obsolete and un-competitive. In ODBA a few years ago, Mercury lobbied, and threw money at ODBA until an SVS equipped non-warrantied Drag motor was allowed into Super Stock. Why? Because up until then the OMC's and Yamaha's had a decent shot of winning. Look at St. Louis back in; what was it; the late 80's when Al Stoker won Mod VP and Mercury impounded the motor and spent several weeks trying to find it illegal. When the whole time several prominent Mercury drivers were showing over 200#'s on a compression guage. They would have looked muuuuuuch better simply handing Al a big trophy, with a smile on their face, and going about their merry way. But no. What it comes down to is the engine manufacturers are not going to race if they don't have a nearly air tight chance of winning. The closest thing now is ABPA Super Sport racing. The manufacturers are staying out of it and the sanction is running the deal. In my opinion the only reason that has happened is that the manufacturers are too busy trying to appease the EPA right now. Just my thoughts...

Russ Rogers
Ft Worth TX

Ted March

02-04-2005, 08:57 AM

This must be the day you are referring to. St. Louis 1985.

The picture is not great. But it tells a great story.

Rusrog

02-04-2005, 09:06 AM

I have always been a big fan of Mercury but I also like to root for the underdog and when Al Stoker won I was certainly hoping that Mercury would do the right thing, in the right way. So much for that idea.

Hey Ted it seems we have a mutual friend. Do you remember David Goodfellow from Texas? Very good friend of mine and he was telling me about running around with you in Il for a weekend years ago...

Russ Rogers
Ft Worth TX

Ted March

02-04-2005, 09:35 AM

We had some good times together. Haven't seen or talked to him in years, and I mean years. I would appreciate iif you could put us in touch. I bet we can swap a lot of lies.

Thanks for bringing his name up.

Rusrog

02-04-2005, 11:54 AM

I sent his contact info...

Give him a shout.

Russ Rogers
Ft Worth TX

M.R.Bowen

03-18-2005, 01:02 AM

OK, how about this. Take F-150 motor rules, add a Mod VP style boat ( capsuled ), keep it simple, call it PRO STOCK/MOD VP and have a ball.
Carbs, anybody's motor, what ever gearcase you can scrouge up, dig out all that stuff you've been hiding in the back of the garage, no efi or fancy stuff. Like Russrog said, the factories are too busy trying to duck to EPA. Let's have some fun before time runs out for all of us.

Ted March

03-21-2005, 07:56 PM

Is right

Ron Hill

03-21-2005, 08:07 PM

Mod VP bottoms would be legal....

Found out an intersting thing, today...actually GREG FOSTER figured it out...But I have the broach for Fat Shafts....so, I can make my own Fat Shaft inserts....

How about posting the Forumla 150 Rules here????

PRO STOCK has a ring to it!!!!!!!

M.R.Bowen

03-22-2005, 12:37 AM

The car drag racers started it, as ya'll probably know, as a class to run carbed motors, in what appears to be stock cars (" door slammers" & yes the doors have to work. ) & 500 ci motors. After that the sky's the limit. the crowds eat them up. They are FAST and everybody has thier favorites.
Now, if you apply that appeal to boats, well I believe you have a winner!
Be them v-bottoms, tunnels, air entrapment, etc. Must be a production model type, with a cell ( safety first ), so that people can identify with them.
Take your OMC, Yamaha, Suzuki, Mercury, powerhead and drop it on what ever center section you want, whatever gearcase you want and go for it. I would suggest a minimum wieght comparible to what the Mod VP's were, just to even it up. Your not going to have to contend with fuel injection or exotic parts or one-off hulls. Just good fun with a bunch of great stuff.
Just look at all the fun the boat Drag Racers are having! Have you seen the way the guys launch the boats at the lights? That's impressive!
PRO STOCK, I think it's the start of something great.
M.R.Bowen

Miss BK

03-22-2005, 07:22 AM

Mod-VP once had a rule that the boat must be a "production" hull and have seating for 5. When capsules were mandated, the manufacturers didn't change the boats (they still left the mandatory space for 5 seats), they only added a "bolt-in" capsule. It worked great: The boats were safer and still looked like the ski boats everyone could relate to.

For some reason that rule was changed and the "seating for five" rule was eliminated. I can't remember how that occurred, but it didn't take long before all the Mod-VP's were decked over like a Champ boat.

When teams would update and buy the new decked-over boats, they simply unbolted the capsule of their old boats, put in upholstered seating and turned the hulls back into ski boats. These retrofitted ski boats were always hot sellers on the ski boat market.

When Mod-VP completely went away, the decked over boats became obsolete. The hull wouldn't fit in any other class and they were usually too heavy for drag racing. So some guys brought their decked over Mod-VPs to our shop and we cut off the capsule deck and replaced it with a standard Ski deck and standard seating for resale purposes. But of course, this transformation was far more expensive than just unbolting a capsule from a production hull.

It's funny, but sometimes we'll hear from people who have seen one of our old "bolt-in" capsule Mod-VP's for the first time, and think this is a great new idea. They don't realize that it's a very OLD boat, and was how capsuled Mod-VP started way back when.

Rusrog

03-22-2005, 08:43 AM

What are the F150 rules? I already have an f150 but I don't think it's gonna float at all...

Russ Rogers:confused:

Miss BK

03-22-2005, 09:04 AM

You can find quite a bit about the OPC classes here:

http://apba-racing.com/Categories/OPC/index.html

You may run into empty files. Any attached pdf and image files were lost during the server change a few months ago. The webmaster is very busy completing HQ-linked databases and it will be a while yet before he can repair the missing files on the website.

ADD:
I just tried it - the Formula 150 class rules was one of those files. :(

But on the class page, this is what it says:

Formula 150
Is a class designed to keep the cost of racing down. This powerful V-6 class uses engines built from bone yard parts. It requires 2.5 liter stock blocks and can produce 250 hp. More powerful than an SST 120 and much less expensive than Champ boats this tunnel class can really rip. The powerful engine make older SST 120 boats feel pretty darn powerful. Great class for drivers/owners that like to tinker.

Rusrog

03-22-2005, 10:27 AM

stuff like fuel requirements? ODBA has a fuel supplier that provides us our fuel\oil at a discounted price. We guarantee a certain volume of fuel sold per year so it works out good for all involved.

If you sell only 93 octane fuel it will limit compression and keep costs down.

Keep EFI out of the mix and it will be much easier to tech. Carbs are a much better alternative.

This class could be fun... cheap(relatively) and not too God Awful fast...

Thanks BK... I'll keep an eye out for that info on the site...

Russ Rogers

Ron Hill

03-22-2005, 01:27 PM

Is there a class now in Outboard Drag that fits these rules?

What if, we only required "SAME FUEL" for Drags? If we ran Series races...say 40 second courses...with 2 fifteen laps qualifiers and one thirty lap main...(That would be our basic Floor Plan) and Once a year run a serious 300....

Everyone I talk to quit boat racing for the same reasons: Too fast. Too expensive... I believe the too fast part....

How fast would this Pro Stock go with the propshaft 3" below the bottom? Or 2"? Lower transom height, slow speeds, improve handling and increases life of equipment...Or, would you rather restrict the carb size and run the propshaft where you want it...

90 MPH, is fast enough!!!!

Why couldn't we race three or four at a time in Drags...? As, when we get this started, at least out west, time at race sites is tough...(Can't take two hours to run 12 boats....

My capsule mold is open to anyone who wishes to use it...at no charge....It was Rick Hoffman's Formula One mold...

Rusrog

03-22-2005, 01:39 PM

The closest thing to F150 rules is DSRA Super Stock. Stock powerheads, no metal removal, no balancing, stock carbs only..... This class drew over 20 entries per race last year and is expected to get close to 30 boats per race this year....

The participation is good and the speeds are in the low 90's through the 1/4 mile.

Fuel is a big consideration as there is power to be gained by additives. Luckily there is testing equipment that can find nearly all of it when the right tester is running the testing procedure. I did it last year for ODBA.

The rules for DSRA SS are found at www.dsraonline.com (http://www.dsraonline.com/).

1. Boats: Any production hull. No true tunnels or hydroplane type hulls.

2. Fuel: 93 Octane Pump Gas
Must use spec fuel and oil purchased at the race site only. No fuel or oil additives allowed.

3. No engines from Mercury High Performance.

4. No Mercury ProMax or OMC HO blocks allowed.

5. Carbureted engines only. Must be OEM carburetors and intakes. Three carb set ups. ** No modifications on carbs.

6. EFI or carbureted blocks are accepted as long as carbs. Are used.

7. 10 pedal front halves only, except as noted below

8. 14 pedal allowed on non-fingerported 2.4 liter produced around 1981-1982. Engine must be stock and use the stock head.

9. (Merc 2.5) number on front half and block must match. No miss matched units.

10. New Style motors with taller decked blocks with o-ring heads allowed.

11. No 1991 model 14 pedal blocks allowed.

12. Exterior appearance and dimensions of intake must retain OEM dimensions and appearence. Internal passages may be modified. (ported, cross drilled, etc.)

13. No metal removal or any internal cylinder block modifications allowed. No porting, polishing, feathering. No piston, rod, wrist pin, sealing ring, or crank modifications. No balancing or blueprinting.

14. Any mid sections 15” in length or longer allowed.

15. exhaust plates and tuners may be modified.

14. Stock 15 or 40 amp electrics allowed on mercs. Stock electrics on all other motors.

16. No detonation modules or timing boxes.

17. Any style engine cowls allowed.

18. Pistons must be OEM or aftermarket made to OEM specs. No High Perf pistons allowed.

19. NO aluminum flywheels allowed. Must be factory flywheel with no modifications. 15 amp electrics are allowed by using a small steel 2.4 flywheel on 2.5 engines.

20. No small gear cases.

21. 1:87 or 2:1 gears allowed.

22. Gear cases must have functional forward, neutral and reverse and be shift able from the driver’s seat. After market nosecones with low water pickups allowed.

23. After market composite reeds allowed all motors. OEM reed cages for like motor only, no modifications to reed cages allowed.

24. No nitrous oxide allowed.

25. Pyrometers allowed.

26. Standard ½ inch reach spark plugs only. Any heat range, style tip or brand allowed.

27. Oil injection and mechanical fuel pumps may be removed and blocked off. Carbureted motors may use in the boat electric fuel pumps and after market adjustable fuel regulators.

28. Heads: 142 cubic in. 2.4 litre casting #15221, 37 cc minimum. No Metal removal. 153 cubic in. 2.5 litre casting #18488, 38 cc minimum. 42 cc head with same casting # may be cut to 38 cc minimum. Standard gasket: part #27-822844 must be used. O-Ring head 39 cc minimum. Older 14 Pedal non-finger port 2.4 must use stock heads with no metal removal.

29. 2.5 Mercury sleeves must be factory. No after market sleeves.

30. Aftermarket Sleeves allowed with a max of 2 per motor. They have to match the remaining sleeves in motor.

31. High Perf rod bolts allowed as long as they are heavier than the bolts they replace. Rod caps may not be clearenced for the bolts.

32. High Perf metal cage rod bearings allowed as long as they are heavier than the bearings they replace

33. All engines must use the original number of piston rings in the original location. No one ring motors allowed.

34. OMC engines may use the 200/225 HP 3.0 liter standard block or fict block only. No HO blocks allowed.

35. Sloush baffles allowed only in OEM OMC plastic body Carbs.

CLASS GOAL: Race boats at entry level cost, with close competition.

Rusrog

03-22-2005, 01:46 PM

How fast would this Pro Stock go with the propshaft 3" below the bottom? Or 2"? Lower transom height, slow speeds, improve handling and increases life of equipment...Or, would you rather restrict the carb size and run the propshaft where you want it...

90 MPH, is fast enough!!!!

I would leave the engine hight up to the set-up guys with a rule that cooling water has to be picked up by the gearcase. Mandate Stock bore carbs. Allow mods such as jetting, slosh tubes, velocity stacks but no changing of the butterflies and no increase of the bore size. That's limit the mods and the speeds and still give the set-up guys some room to tinker...

Also... 90mph in a STV\Mirage\Allison\Eliminator is not too big a deal and would be easliy done with the power of the engine package being discussed.
The strong tuners and set-up guys are going to be close to 100 with just a little development. Especially if any compression is given. Keep it under 140#'s or the power will push these boats into the 100mph range right quick...

M.R.Bowen

03-22-2005, 04:53 PM

I agree with Russ. Leave the transom hieght to choice, but limit to stock carb. This is easily checked in inspection. Can also limit by what is available as replacement parts, ie: cyl heads. Compression is then limited near stock levels. I will agree with full shift gearcases, but can be of any manufacture, ie: run a sportmaster on a Yamaha. Wieght would also be a way of limiting speed potential. Make the wieght control the speed.
Just my 2 cents worth.
M.R.Bowen

Ted March

03-22-2005, 06:56 PM

We have the ability to weigh in at 1250- with the driver. Mod VP wieght was 1500? Do you think I would put 250 in to make weight. Or more to make whatever weight you guys deceide?

Weight controls speed, of course.

Probably dont' remember what happed to Joe Burges in Stl when he was testing King Farout's (sp) tunnel with a steel plate in the boat.

I was there.

Welcome all replies

Ted March

03-22-2005, 07:19 PM

are you going to find these boats Someone's back yard, cool. MOD VP
ended 20 years age + or -. MOst of them are rotted. So what do we have.

The guys who have saved them and they are the guys who won't run them, cause they are teasures.

So what do we have?

A guy named Ronnie had a Viper, Put an ss3000 on it and was never beat.
Until the boat came a part. He was hurt. And has recovered.

Sounds like fun to me.

Ron Hill

03-22-2005, 07:39 PM

Is that what they call JERSEY....I thoought it was "THE YOUS GUYS" State....Them JURSEY GUYS would always ask, "Hows come yous guys fromCalifronia talk wid an accent?"

Anyway, Jersey or New York...those area racers were something else at Pit Stops. At Parker, I'd always go down at watch Muscle Boats and Fred Hartman's pit stops...Always about ten to twelve guys running around giving orders...nobody working....but they were fun.. I loan Freddy Hartman a prop, at a pit stop, the next year he asked what I charged for a cleaver, I said "$500." He held up this cleaver and said, "You want the prop back of the money?" I asked where he got it...He said at a pit stop last year...

MOD VP was fun...20 years ago..damn...

Motor questions:

1. Why no grinding...? Marathons have away of sorting out engines that will last...If we ran Drags and Circles/Marathons at the same race (s)... I FEEL, that CARBS will tend to make things equal.

2. In Formula 150, what are their head rules??? OPC has gon to measuring the top of the piston and head chamber depth...seems easy to measure from an inspectors point of view....

3. Long reach plugs??? What do you see as the problem, a little carbon and whne you pull a plug you lose the threads in the head?? 1/2 plugs is OK with me...

4. 38 CC sounds like a ton of CC's...we ran a carb 2.5 steel sleeves, Molly pistons, and 26 CC, CARB...ran great and faster than 2.5 with rev limiters on number 4's...

I like to balance pistons, rods and cranks. The motors may not be faster but are more fun to run....smooth ride for the driver...

Boats;

1. Foster (Greg) suggests we put a bar between the pickle forks, so they won't SPEAR SOMEONE....rather than make the forks "BREAKAWAY"..

2. What did Ted say for weight 1250??? I think this weight would be easy...for roundy rounds and drags...

ADD: 2006 Motors...Do your best....no rules on them, except STOCk and we'd let the 250 run!!!

Well.....Let's see, I now have three complete 45 rigs, 9 15 HP Johnson and Evinrudes...and I'm working on 36 Runabout...If, i could only get brakes on my wife's car, i MIGHT tell her, I'm going to Vegas to pick up some more stuff!!!!

I may need a tent and 8 car garage!!!.

Ted March

03-22-2005, 07:48 PM

are you asking me these questions.

Where are you going to find the boats?

Unless you buy new ones...or buy a mold?

Those guys from LI are crazy and I know and love most of them.

They are winners!!!

Ron Hill

03-22-2005, 08:06 PM

Not really asking anyone. Seems, we need to get the class off the ground...but some rules would help.....as I really don't want "BIG BROTHER" making the rules ....

You, Ted, know a ton about Drags and Mod VP....can a "MARRIAGE" be made between these two??? Or do we always have to be seperate???

Miss BK

03-22-2005, 08:47 PM

(Moved from another thread)

I still had these on my PC for some reason. I didn't realize I did.

These are the Formula 150 rules for 2004 --- Not sure if any rules changed for 2005 - You'd have to contact OPC chair Mike Weinandt. The Tabara's would probably know too.

2004 Formula 150 Technical Standards

Max. Total Cu. In.Displacement 165 (2.7L)
Minimum Boat Length 16'
Boat Weight 1050 Lbs.
Minimum Age Requirements 18

Total Cu. Ft. of Foam in Boat, Including Cockpit 8.0 CF

Cu. Ft. of Foam in Reinforced Cockpit Structure, If So Equipped 4.5 CF

Formula 150 Boat Standards (see also Rule 18)

(1) Any design of boat including bottom, deck, cockpit openings and seating arrangements shall be permissible so far as boat meets minimum length.
(2) Power trim and/or adjustable spoilers shall be allowed in Formula 150.

Formula 150 Motor Standards

(1) Engines for Formula 150 class are as follows.
(2) Standard factory production models of any manufacture may enter F-150.
(3) All cowlings and engine graphics shall be essentially the same as OEM for product identity and may be either OEM or after market manufacture.
(4) All engines must be carbureted with original manufactures carburetors.
(5) 12 or 24 volt starting system is permitted.
(6) Engines may substitute up to 6 sleeves of any manufacture as long as original port specs are maintained.
(7) Iron liners engines will be allowed up to .030 over bore for repair.
(8) Reed pedals may be of any design and or material.
(9) All engines may use after market (non-OEM) pistons, rings, bearings, gaskets and ignition parts.
(10) Any Gearcase, Midsection, Cowling and transom/trim assemblies are legal.
(11) Exhaust stacks must be contained within the driveshaft housing.
(12) Engine parts must be of original Manufacturer. No intermix of
different manufacturers parts.
(13) 100ci engines permitted with any modification except open stacks.

F-150 Page 2
Mercury
(a) Standard factory production 2.5L engines may be run with no modification to the block or ports. No grinding or additional machining.
(b) Any Mercury Connecting rod may be used in any model Mercury engine.
(c) 2.5 production blocks may use any tuner.
(d) No S3000 or 2.5L Nikasil Race blocks allowed.
2.5L production blocks require heads of 30 cc volume minimum. Flat plate measurement with surface gap plug.
(e) 2.4L Bridgeport or Oval-port blocks may be used.
1 4 or 5 pedal OEM reed blocks only.
2 Carb venture of 1.312” maximum.
3 Modified Oval port blocks may use any tuner and head.
4 Modified Bridgeport block must use the stock Tuner and heads for the model.
5 Stock Bridgeport may use a head of 26cc min. and any exhaust tuner`
2.0L Oval port SST 120 type blocks with cast in iron liners may be modified in any way.
1 Any reed block assembly.
2 Any Carb venture.
3 Any exhaust tuner.
4 Any head volume.
(f) Pre 1989 2.0L Oval-port Champ blocks may be modified and used with:
1 Any reed block assembly
2 Carb venture of 1.312” maximum
3 Any exhaust tuner.
4 2.0L head volume 21cc minimum(flat plate).
(h) 2.0L Bridgeport Champ block may be modified and used with:
1 4 or 5 pedal OEM reed blocks only.
2 Carb venture of 1.312” max.
3 Stock SST 120/140 long exhaust tuner.
4 2.0L head volume 21cc minimum(flat plate).

OMC
(a) OMC SST 100 engines may be modified.
(b) OMC engines, may run 165 cubic inch displacement but must maintain stock block, porting and heads. No alterations to these above mentioned components. No grinding or additional machining. No V-8 blocks.

YAMAHA, ETC.
May run 158.4 cubic inch displacement engines but must maintain stock block porting and heads. No alterations to these above mentioned components. No grinding or machining.

Suzuki
May run 164 cubic inch displacement engines but must maintain stock block porting and heads. No alterations to these above mentioned components. No grinding or machining.

Ron Hill

03-22-2005, 08:57 PM

If you remember, I never could back up my motor home..and I always said, "Tomorrow, I'd get organized>" I didn't notice the Forum you posted..but I moved my reply..

Hey, from what I've seen 2.0 and 2.4 could really do anything they want..

I like the NO S-3000 or racing blocks...as there are V-6 2.5 fishing blocks all over this country for the price of aluminum..or close to it...

Full shifting, of course for Pro Stock...

Why not mix match? What is wrong with a Yamaha on a Mercury gearcase???

M.R.Bowen

03-23-2005, 12:41 AM

Ted,
I was not suggesting to add any type of unsafe weight attachment to the boat. Was merely suggesting that a minimum wieght would go along to keep the speed within limits. I remember Joe very well, along with a lot of others. I was not suggesting to do what Ronnie did, nor am I endorsing the high speed runs that could have ended in tragity, recently. The speeds that they were running, without a capsule, should scare anyone with common sense. It was only by the Grace of God, that something worse didn't happen.
Safety is the first consideration in anything racing.
That said:
The beauty of the F-150 format is the ability to use exsisting equipment to continue racing on a budget. The cost out-lay would be, as is the case with the tunnel boats, would be within reason. That's why the class is a successful combination. There is no reason not to use your "skiboats" powerhead, your cousin's gearcase, your brothers center section, and borrow one of Mr.Hill's props. Gather up the parts & put them together.
Put a Yamaha on a OMC, OMC on a Merc, Merc on a Yamaha. What ever combination works for you. Bolt it to a properly prepared boat ( in good condition, with a capsule ) and go for it.
Keep the rules simple. Keep them effective, and enforced. Keep them simple so that they can't be misinterpted, or bent. In other words, make them clear, and make it clear that they will be enforced.
There is no reason why the Drag racers amongst us can't compete in this class either. It gives more opportunity for racers to race their boats, which is why you have a raceboat to begin with. Simple.
I like the idea of multi event races. For example:Imagine a Prostock weekend.
You have drag races on Sat., and accumulate points. Sun. you have 10 lap quailifiers, followed by a 25 lap final. accumulate more points.The most points wins the weekend Champ, but you still have a chance to claim wins in any individual race. Bragging rights only, yes, but still a win. Overall Champ gets the T-shirt & his/her picture in the "Prostock News". Goes back to fish'n on Monday. Tuesday, he has to give the prop back to Mr.Hill,.... maybe.
M.R.Bowen