Qunicy Loopers FC64 FG52 FC62

[fbref5269]

Well i went and did it last weekend. I've always wanted a Quincy Looper and ended up with 3 C's. I purchased 2 from Tim Burden and the third will be arriving soon from another party.

Now the real fun begins. The plan is to restore these beauties, they have been silenced too long. I want them to be heard again. I would be interested to know when these engines were made and and specs anyone has would be helpful. I have an idea as to how i want to display them and some history would be great. Also i will hopefuly be running these in a local race next summer. I will be posting pictures soon.

Frank Novotny
52-E (back in the 70's)

[Jeff Lytle]

I was bidding on the FC64 engine you bought. It didn't make reserve, so I opened negotiations with the owner. We settled on a price, and I was to have it picked up..........I have to admit, I hesitated, and now it belongs to you. Good score, and I know it's a great find. Here is some of the info I have on the engine I got from Paul Christner, whos father O.F was the owner of Quincy Welding:

FC 64 -- original owner was Jim Nichols. I think he was from the Kansas City, MO area and was pretty successful, a frequent top 5 finisher & sometimes winner. I do remember he was extremely meticulous with his equipment. By the pictures, that Looper appears well taken care of after Jim owned it.


By the serial number you gave me, I think it was probably produced in 1966, early spring.

The owner's name that I gave you might be in the Kansas City, MO phone directory. The owner was young enough that he very likely is still around. I do remember that he had a restaurant with a very good reputation for excellent food. He would come to Quincy Welding on Saturdays to have his engine tweaked. Many of our customers did that. That's how I came to know and become friends with so many of them.

Your engine could have been sold in a kit form - complete powerhead, powerhead and drive housing, or complete powerhead/ drive housing/ lower unit. We offered a lot of options as our customers had many different preferences. Since I didn't actually see this one leave the shop, I don't know how the owner ordered it. Perhaps he can help you out if you locate him.

As to the Konig links, almost anything was possible with the Quincy packages. I do know we sold some with Konig units, some with 1:1 Merc units, some with Crescent units and some with Eldredge units. That's why Quincy never made a lower unit - there were so many good options available at such good prices that it wouldn't have been cost effective. At least, that's what my dad, Chris, told me & I believe it to be true.

We at Quincy Welding primarily kept records of new production engines and powerheads but not documentation of the complete package that went out.

Again........well done on a rare find. My time will come, I'm sure of it. Keep us posted with pictures and updates (AND SOUND FILES TOO!)

[Bill Van Steenwyk]

Jimmy died several years ago. maybe 5-7 seems like. He was a little older than I am, I believe, so if he was still living he would be late 70's or so, maybe even a little more. We were not real close friends, just lived in the same town and raced for a few years in the same time frame, late 60's and early to mid 70's. I believe he retired from driving himself in the mid to late 70's but I also seem to remember that some younger folks that went with him to help drove some of his equipment after he quit driving but still owned equipment. Rex Hall drove for him in the mid to late 60's when he was just a young squirt. Rex is now the Rossi dealer for the US and could surely tell you about some of the engines Jimmy had and he drove. Another source is a guy named Don Dando who is I believe now retired from TWA and may still live in the KC area. Might check the members list on BRF, he might even belong. I remember him as being a real nice person, and a good boat racer.

Sorry I don't know more.

[RogerH]

Frank is having trouble logging in right now so he asked me if I'd post his THANKS to those that have responded. Frank and I are just starting our "education" with Quincy Loopers and really appreciate your comments and help.
Regards,
Roger Hinsdale

My Quincy's = "C" Deflector C202 and "D" Looper FD 67

[Original Looper 1]

Hi Frank & other Looper fans,

Frank wanted some info on the 3 Loopers he recently purchased. Jeff Lytle was so kind to pass on to Frank the info I had given him for FC64.

As to the other 2 Loopers --
FC (not FG) 52: the original owner on record was Phil Crown. The original bore was 2.127,
piston dimensions were as follows: 900 -20 over 15 degrees L Ring P.I.B.
It was manufactured in the fall of 1965.

FC62: the original owner on record was .......hang on, because this is a big find.......the great Bruce Nicholson. Yes, that Bruce Nicholson of championship alky runabout fame.
The original bore was 2.140,
piston dimensions were as follows: 905 -20 over 15 degrees L Ring P.I.B.
It was probably manufactured late 1965 or early 1966.

This information comes directly from the original Quincy Welding serial number shop book that my father, O. F. Christner, handed off to me when we closed the doors of Quincy Welding/ Precision Machine.

Richard Ollhoff is a big Looper collector and fan that also happens to recreate a running 6 cylinder Looper for sale and many of the parts for Quincy Looper engines. He can be reached at 715-453-0741 or cell 715-218-1615.

Good luck with your restorations and welcome to the Looper Club.

thanks,

Paul A Christner

PS: To those looking for Looper treasures, there is still the potential to find some extremely valuable Loopers out there. Names like Marshall Grant, Billy Seebold, John Woods, Ray Nydahl, Jerry Simison, Pete Voss, Dick Odea, Jim Schoch & Gerry Waldman. To keep the treasure hunt fair for everyone, I will not give out the serial numbers of these famous engines here & now, but will confirm your numbers if you purchase one of them. Happy treasure hunting to all!

By the way, the Waldman A Looper that someone mentioned as being for sale earlier today was featured in a thread right here on the Quincy Looper section of BRF - you can check out the pictures and history on that thread. It's on page 2 of the Quincy threads under the title "Waldman A."

[Mark75H]

Now that I am fully awake ... Frank should be reset. :)

I can't wait to hear them run.

[fbref5269]

hi all,

i want to thanks all who have sent repliesho helped me get back into brf. paul it was an honor hearing from you. your history helps a lot. i am excited on the find. now to get to work. i've torn down part of fc52. i had to start there since 52 was my racing number.

rule number one if you have open exhaust and going to store on engine in a barn for 40 years.... COVER THE OPENINGS. this was not done and i had a ton of dirt from bees in the cyls. so far the elbows are off, the cyl heards are off, and with some doing the flywheel is off. it is now taking a wd40 bath before the front plate comes off and the crank comes out.

i will keep updating. i have some pictures and will post as soon as i load them on the pc.

take care all,

frank novotny

[fbref5269]

hi all,

here are some pictures of 2 of the project engines. fc 52 and fc 62. fc 52 is the first one to go under the wrench. we had a sucessful fly wheel launching on sunday. that baby flew across the garage floor. the tear down pictures show the condition on the clys as best i could. looks like #2 cly is the worst. has a bunch of crude and some pitting in it. it also had the most mud from the bees. i hope it will clean up with honing. #4 piston is hisitory. from the top you can see the ring i one section. that's not a good sign.

paul, do you know the total production of the c loopers? i've heard 115, 125 and 133.

hope you enjoy,

frank

[Master Oil Racing Team]

Paul, thanks for the info. That book must have some very interesting history. I like your game plan.

Thanks for posting the pics Frank. It brings back a lot of great memories. I happened to have raced against Phil and Bruce with those very motors at the beginning of my racing history. That photo I posted a couple of weeks ago of Phil Crown in a runabout may have that motor on it. The race was in Mexico in November 1965. Looking forward to more posts on the progress.

[fbref5269]

sorry for the poor pictures of the cyls. have to admit it was a great picture of my geo tracker. here are cyls #2 and #4. note the missing chunk on #4 @ 2o'clock.

frank

[Original Looper 1]

Frank,

When you get to the point of cleaning the blocks, give Richard Ollhoff a call. As I said previously, he is a Looper restorer & not only that, he restores $100,000 board track racing motorcycles from the frame up and has extensive experience in refinishing the surfaces of extremely valuable racing engines that are made of aluminum. I've seen his work and I am impressed.

I've also seen some engine restorations where the people have ruined the aluminum casting's original patina by improperly glass beading or sand blasting the surface of the aluminum with the wrong grit and air pressure.

As I stated previously, Richard's phone is 715-453-0741 and his cell is 715-218-1615.

You asked how many C Loopers were produced by Quincy Welding. According to my shop records & first hand knowledge of how we maintained records (and sometimes didn't), my best guestimate would be somewhere between 113 - 133 in total. I am finding out as time goes on that not every Quincy R&D engine was entered into the permanent record book. You have to remember that Quincy Welding was a small business that sometimes became completely overwhelmed by the racing portion of our business. Looking back, we all know there were times in our past that we should have written down things pertaining to racing that we didn't.

Keep us updated as you do the restoration by posting more pictures here.

thanks,

Paul A Christner


PS to Wayne Baldwin: Would you please repost that picture you think you have of Phil Crown racing that Looper of Frank's here? Thanks for the nice words.

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paul,

thanks for the heads up with richard and his services. after i saw your posting on the roger hinsdale posting i called him and we have spoken several times. as a matter of fact we spoke today about the pitting problem in #2 cyl. i asked him if he thought i may need to get the cyls bored out because of the pitting. his answer was a classic. he said to hone them out and slight pitting was not a problem. he said we call the pitting 'oil pockets'. he is a super guy! he is going to get back to me on some new pistons and rings. all this is before i pull the crank and take a look.

that would be super if i could get a picture of bruce nichols running the looper. i should have that on here very soon and will post pictures. that was taken care of very well for what i understand.

this website is just like family with all the help and replies. you are all great! roger hinsdale and i are in touch every day and this is what it's all about.

frank

[RichardKCMo]

Seen an old c looper in Iowa at Shultz Marine recently, understand it's going on an old hydro.
Doug, fill in the blanks.
RichardKCMo

[fbref5269]

paul,

i will get in touch with richard ollhoff before doing any sandblasting. thanks for the heads up. do not want to mess it up! as i get into the power head i have come to realize how much of an engineering marvel the looper is! this is the stuff the history channel should do on their engineering marvel show.

here's a question for paul and others...... fastners.... i was thinking about using all stainless to bolt the loopers together. i've been told that they are not as strong as the cap screws and the case hardened bolts used for the heads. i want to use something that will have the strength but not rust. any thoughts?


frank

[Master Oil Racing Team]

Okay Paul & Frank here is that pic of Phil Crown.

[Dave_E71]

Frank,

Check with my dad (Dave) we have a couple of Konig lower units and I think he has a line on a boat.

Dave

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wayne,

that picture is great! thanks. i called tim burden back and he said the runabout in the picture may be available. he will be letting me knoe. wouldn't that be cool to end up with that boat, the engine and your picture in a boat show display! wonder how i can get the boat to maryland from texas? thanks again for the picture.

frank

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davey,

i talked to your dad this morning and he was going down pops this afternoon. he told me about the konig units and he may have a d test wheel also. i will be firing the looper up in a test tank in my neighborhood when she's done! may scare some wildlife and defolliate some trees.

not to embarrass you, but i remember picking your jsh(the watermellon seed) with you dad and taking it to the water with you in it. sorry i'm showing my age. great picture of you in e-71.

frank

[Dave_E71]

... Also i will hopefuly be running these in a local race next summer. I will be posting pictures soon...


Frank,

I'm looking forward to seeing and hearing it run! Just don't expect me to take it to the water with you in it......

I'll show my age too, it was probably 1970 :eek:

It looks like we have a race in Sharptown, Maryland June 23-24, if you can make it.

Dave

[fbref5269]

dave,

guess i gotta call you dave now. huh. you can do it with me in the boat if you operate the crane.

don't think it will be ready by then but i am planning to go to the race. it would be nice if i can get it together by then.

i think it was 71 when you had the 'seed' you had the new merc j engine on it.

frank

[Original Looper 1]

Frank,

I would always recommend using the highest quality fasteners that you can find. On some of my show racing engines, I've used stainless steel because I can polish it to a chrome-like luster prior to installation. Just remember, whatever you finally decide to use, to be careful to document the grade and source of your fasteners.

A few years ago, some fasterners that were supposed to be high quality ended up as rotor securing bolts for some of our military helicopters. The bolts were fradulently graded and started breaking under stress, crashing military helicopters and even costing some lives. Be sure to check out your source of fasteners very carefully, especially when parts are now coming from all over the world.


thanks,

Paul A Christner

[fbref5269]

paul,

thanks for the insight. my concern is will they take the pressure of the compression in the heads. as long as i can get them to match the harding number on the bolts i should be ok. i want to run it as well as show. just have to make sure where they come from.

thanks,

frank

[fbref5269]

today i started to work on getting the crank and pistons out. i thought the 2 cyls looked bad! the front plate came off real nice but it revealed some nasty looking rods in the 2 cyls that were the haven for the mud daubers. i've been using wd-40 and an assortment of other products the tryl to make the piston extraction easier. they all can out but #2. it started to move then for some reason decided to stay put. i've got it soaking in wd-40 and will attempt to finish it tomorrow. i plan to hone the cyls to get rid of the junk. then soak the crank to loosen the rod nuts. when i have the crank out i'll post some more pictures. in the mean time here are some shots of the crank still in the block. enjoy.

paul, after i get the block in shape i would like to discss what to do with the block and front plate to bring it back to looking new. i have heard about jet coating, but i'm afraid it may retain heat in the block. what are your thoughts?

frank

[fbref5269]

anybody got any ides what the crude is on the 2 rods? it's flakey stuff and i know some of it may be from the bees. from what i see so far it's not rust. if it's old castor why in just those 2 cyls?

frank

[F-12]

Look at the entry...........When bees go into a structure, I have seen them enter and go DOWN. Does this make sense?

[fbref5269]

charley,

the engine had uncovered elbows while being stored in an old barn for 40 years. the bees entered thru open exhaust ports. they would have gone down into the lower end of the rod. i'm thinking the flakey stuff is old castor. i just hope i can save the crank and some rods. if not i'll be looking for a d crank.

frank

[Mark75H]

Fortunately, D cranks are easy to come by.

[fbref5269]

i sure hope so cuz i gotta another to tear down after this one is together. another bee santuary.

[Tim Weber]

That is a real mess! I have had some good success with a product called KROIL. It's a penetrating oil. They have a couple of different versions of it.
I bought it from their web site. Just type in KROIL. I used it to help loosen up some C-service stuff that had been sitting around.

Tim

[fbref5269]

tim,

thanks for the info. right now i have spayed some stuff called pb. i've keep spraying every hour or so. if that doesn't work i'll go to the web site and get the item you told me about. once it's out i'll soak the crank and rods in something. wonder if the wife will notice the roasting pan is missing.

frank

[fbref5269]

the crank is finally out of the block. looks like new pistons and rings are in order. she was 'rode hard and put away wet'. a lot of cleaning and soaking for right now. i was able to loosen the nuts on the rod but the center bearing is locked. a good soaking will do the trick. couldn't convince the wife to let me use the roasting pan for soaking so i'm off the get a pan and a hone for the cyls. i hope the crank cleans up.

frank

[fbref5269]

went to sears and got a cyl hone and it did the trick. all the cyls cleaned up nicely. i got all the rods off and the crude is coming off. i thin a wire brush wheel will take alll the heavy crude off. then some emory cloth to bring it back to life. it's sweat equity time. the bottom of the rods has the imprint of the bearings, but i hope they will come out with emory. any suggestions as to whether i should scrap the pistons or try to get the imprints out with emory? i imagine the piston end will be the same. still trying to get the center beaing out. it's soaking and that will be tried later.richard ollhoff will be getting a call on monday for my piston order. here are 2 pictures of the honed block. big difference.

frank

[Original Looper 1]

Frank,

However you finally decide to clean your block, do not, repeat, do not, have your aluminum Quincy block boiled out in a commercial engine shop. Even if you have it done where they specialize in aluminum blocks, the heat and caustic emulsion could actually rotate the sleeves and misalign the ports to the block. Also, the extreme heat and duration of the heat could cause warpage to the block.

For all of you engine restorers out there, I too like to restore engines and by accident I came across a product called Evapo - Rust. It's military grade. The company is out of Texas and in talking with one of their reps, he told me they discovered this product by accident. It's non-caustic, it's biodegradable and it removes rust. I personally have had fantastic results using it. What it does chemically is to cause the rust to release it's hold on the metal. This company also makes many other good products, some used by our military and if it's good enough for them it's good enough for me.

Here is the toll free number for Orison Company to get one of their free product catalogues: 1-800-460-2403. The web site is www.orisonmarketing.com

One note: this product works only when the temperatures are above 70 degrees and it must remain wet to perform correctly (use it in the shade, not in direct sunlight).

Good luck with your Looper restorations and keep us all updated. You've convinced me you're a very determined person and determination is necessary for success.

thanks,

Paul A Christner

[fbref5269]

paul,

thank you for your reply. i don't want to mess the engines up. i'm sure there a lot more loopers sitting out there waiting to restored and with the info you just provided just saved a lot of people a lot of heart ache. i went to the website and they had a 'before' pictute of a piston that looks just like mine do and the 'after' picture looks brand new. i will be ordering ith product today and will report back.

after the block is clean, what do you suggest i use for a paint? i had thought about jet coat but i think that would hold in the heat. it looked like your dad's shop painted them. am i correct. if so a good engine enamel would be good?

this project has been all i had hoped for. restoring theses engines has been a dream of mine, but never knew where to look for them. then once i got started the replies for you paul and all the others have been great. knowing the developers son is following this and giving advise not only to me but to others as well show me the family pride you have in any project that has a quincy looper involved. by the number count on the viewing from this project there are a lot of others following this. a lot of eyes reading and that is so cool. i will not let any of you down.

can't wait to clean this baby up!

thanks again paul,

frank

[Original Looper 1]

Frank,

I would most definitely say no to jet hot coating the engine block. The water system in your C Looper is marginal by today's standards, although it was contemporary for the 1960's time period in which it was designed.

I think that jet coating is primarily designed for exhaust systems and performance uses where insulating the heat of the exhaust advances the horsepower. With the Looper, I don't think the aluminum should even be painted. It's possible that Quincy Welding painted a few Loopers, but I am certain that the vast majority were left natural cast aluminum to better dissipate the heat.

Frank, we sold engines in kit form, assembled power heads and complete engine packages with lower unit and drivehousing. That being said, people can be and were creative in assembling their Loopers. It is possible yours was painted by the original owner. To my knowledge, I don't ever recall us painting a Looper block. We did paint the head gaskets and when looking at your pictures of the disassembled block, it appears your head gaskets were painted.

Now back to the surface cleaning of the block. I've seen some very poor looking finishes due to improper media blasting the block. I think, at the current state of auto, cycle and outboard restorations, that unpainted aluminum block surface/finish restoration is an ongoing science. I would cautiously proceed in determining how and what you use to clean the block. The original new-like patina is the goal to recreate but I don't know of any "one method fits all" considering there are so many degrees of aged aluminum surfaces to deal with in the restoration process.

I am myself experimenting with a chemical process that is highly temperamental and too complex to try to explain effectively here at this time. It's still an experiment in progress right now, although the results so far have been spectacular in terms of luster and original looking patina. I'll get back to you once I've worked on this some more.

Richard Ollhoff has his restoration finishes on unpainted aluminum surfaces down pat and if his procedures and finishes satisfies your needs and requirements, then go with his system. I posted his phone numbers to this thread previously.

There is another gentleman that restores old outboards and race engines by the name of Bob Dunlap. His restorations are meticulous and spot on original. He is a member at BRF and he would be a good one to consult too.

R C Hawie is another expert restorer, although he is not hooked up to any computers at this time. I have personally witnessed his assemblies and restorations and he is one of the few people I would trust with my priceless collectable engines.

Frank, I hope this helps you with your restoration. I will be watching your progress as I am sure others will too.

thanks,

Paul A Christner

[fbref5269]

paul,

thanks for the input. it is my concern that anything that is baked in a block will keep the heat in and that means bad things happening inside. i am ordering the rust cleaner today from the company you told me about yesterday. that will clean up the crank and some areas of the block. i spoke with richard ollhoff yesterday to order new pictons and about cleaning the block. he does not paint his blocks. he syas he uses 100 - 170 mesh glass beads to clean his blocks. my concern is finding someone who will actually use that mesh and not just say they will. i might just have to use a brush and some elbow grease to clean it. i will write bob dunlop to see what he uses too. i wrote him about a boat for the loopers. i will be interested and i'm sure others will be interested in your cleaning process. there are a lot of looper fans who are looking at this project and i think it is great!

switching gears for a minute, the tower and clamps are a mess. i should be able to to powder coat those without any danger of heat retention. what are your thoughts.

thanks for all you help on the project paul. all your input and ides have helped me a great deal.

frank

[fbref5269]

paul,

i looked at the orison web site you told us about the other day. they have a lot of products that may help me clean the block. have you had any experience with their paint removal product, biosafe paint solvent? looks like that may help remove the paint from the elbows and other places that were painted. also aluminator, an oxide remover. this one has acid in it and i'm not sure acid and restoration should be used in the same sentence. although it says it will make it shine. any experience with that product? i'm going to call orison today but will hold off on these products until i hear from you. i will be ordering the rust product though.

frank

[Original Looper 1]

Frank,

The only product that I have personally used and have 1st hand experience with from Orison is the evapo-rust, which I have had amazing results. The people there seem to be honest and genuine, so I wouldn't be afraid to ask them any and all questions you may have pertaining to their other products. What I always try to do with a new product is to try a small test area and if the results are satisfactory, cautiously proceed. In other words, don't get in a hurry.

I too have had a wide range of varying success when I had my aluminum parts glass beaded. Too many problems occur when they use the wrong grit beads or dirty or soiled beads. That's why I am in the process of evolving my new cleaning system.

As to the clamp brackets and drivehousing, I've seen some awesome looking restorations where those items were properly cleaned and then painted with 2 part epoxy paint, the original Mercury Cloud white. Wow! Does it look clean and nice!

There is a gentleman on this web site from Canada that has a pristinely restored cloud white Mercury 55H that is beautiful. There are pictures posted on BRF, I think the thread was under motors for sale. Look closely at the detail of his restoration - it's beyond meticulous.

I forgot to mention this in the past so please excuse me, for all of you Quincy Looper purists out there - there is a gentleman in Quincy, IL by the name of Mark "Chopper" Hummelsheim that is one of the original Quincy Welding race engine assemblers and technicians. He runs a tool supply business and is an expert machinest and mechanic. Mark was building Loopers when I was young enough to ride my Schwinn Stingray (remember them?) down to Quincy Welding to watch the guys at work. I just talked with Mark on the phone and he will consider, on a limited basis, some clients that want either restoration work or race modifications. I still have the record books on porting, pistons, etc for reference. Mark is a good friend of mine and he is honest and highly talented. Mark also happens to be best friends with another former Quincy Welding technician, Gene East. Yes that Gene East, aka Easter Bunny. Gene is the best welder in Quincy, IL. Gene is a registered member here at BRF & checks in often.

You can reach Mark at James Supply Company, 111 N. 10th, Quincy, IL 62301.
Phone: 1-217-223-3866.

Can you imagine having access to the original Looper crew from Quincy Welding while working on your racing equipment? Wow!!!

thanks,

Paul A Christner

[fbref5269]

paul,

holy cow paul, the original crew from quincy!!!! how great is that. i will make the call as soon as i get everything clean up. this is great!!!

i called orison today and you were right they are very helpful and nice. i ended up getting the evapo rust(2 1/2 gals) and the paint remover. they said the paint remover is also a great degreaser when diluted. i will let everyone know how it works. i should get in by either friday or next tuesday.

i have always liked the way the looper looked in the merc tower. i want that to be just right. i know the cloud white looks awsome. i was thinking about painting it in a medium blue. and have the throttle control and the distribuutor stop done in the same color. just a thought.

i have noticed there are 2 types of exhaust elbows you used on the looper. the 2 i have now have a single gussett support,for lack of a better term, on the top and bottom of the elbow. the bruce nichols elbow shows 2 on the elbows, top and bottom. was there an engineering change. also maybe later we can get into the variety of ignition systems used. the ones posted here have 2 different systems.

i will be away this weekend in virginia beach at a soccer tounament one of my son-in-laws teams is in. he's the coach. are there and looper fans down there that would like to let me see their collections? let me know.

frank

[Dave_E71]

Paul and Frank,

How about walnut shell media blasting http://www.kramerindustriesonline.com/blasting-media/walnut-shells.htm ? I haven't used it in a blast cabinet but it works well in a vibratory polisher for cleaning dirty brass ;)


Dave

[fbref5269]

dave,

that's a new one on me. paul, have you hd any experience with it? i went to the web site and they have everything. wonder if it would work? they do have the glass beads at the grit richard ollhoff uses. i'm going to try the orison products i ordered today and see how they do. i am hoping the paint remover will double as a cleaner too like the tech said over the phone. they were also very excited about the evapo rust product. they should produce some great before and after pictures.

frank

[Dave_E71]

Frank,

What number did you use when you raced?

Dave

[fbref5269]

dave,

my numbers were e-52 and 52-e. the 52 in my sign in is that number.

frank

[fbref5269]

hi all,

the product paul told us about, evapo rust by orison marketing really does the job. i have the throttle linkage soaking in it now and even after 1 hour it is really melting the rust away. looks like it was painted grey back in 65. i also bought the paint remover from them and i'm using it as a cleaner. i have some pictures of how the center casting, don't know what it's called, came out. i also have a before picture of the front plate which mates up to it. cyl nuimber 2 and 4 were nasty. look at how it cleaner worked! and to clean it off you use water! no nasty smell. paul, thanks for the heads up on the company. once the cleaner soaked for a while i took a wire brush and just worked it off.

it looks like my rods and crank have a lot of castor buildup. i have it soaking in the evapo rust right now to get the rust off then i'll clean it with the paint remover. those pictures of the crank and fromt plate will be posted later this week i hope.

i do have a question as to bearings... i remember back in the days of c stock and c service sec 2, the crank bearings were .126 dia. did quincy use the same bearing? or did they use .125?

hope these pictures help show how ther stuff works.

frank

[fbref5269]

hi all,

i can now shake the crank and nothing rattles because nothing is on it. what a mess. if you look ant my crank pictures and rogers crank pictures they look the same. we don't know what happened in #2 and #4 cyl, but it put ruts in the rods and crank. i have purchased an almost new crank for the looper and i'm waiting on 2 replacement rods. the rods i had hoped to use were the light ones with holes in the lower end.

as the engine underwent the wrench i noticed several items i will be needing. here's the list so far:

4 thumb screws for the clamps(i'm going to need them on the other one too)
4 washers that go on the end of the thumb screws
cone bearing holder with bearings and seals for the d quickie lower unit.

i know i'm not ready for these items yet, but i want to stay a few steps ahead. i hope someone who is following the progress here or roger's d restoration can help. i have to say all of you have been a big help to both of us. can't wait to make her breath again!

frank

[mercguy]

hi all,

i can now shake the crank and nothing rattles because nothing is on it. what a mess. if you look ant my crank pictures and rogers crank pictures they look the same. we don't know what happened in #2 and #4 cyl, but it put ruts in the rods and crank. i have purchased an almost new crank for the looper and i'm waiting on 2 replacement rods. the rods i had hoped to use were the light ones with holes in the lower end.

as the engine underwent the wrench i noticed several items i will be needing. here's the list so far:

4 thumb screws for the clamps(i'm going to need them on the other one too)
4 washers that go on the end of the thumb screws
cone bearing holder with bearings and seals for the d quickie lower unit.

i know i'm not ready for these items yet, but i want to stay a few steps ahead. i hope someone who is following the progress here or roger's d restoration can help. i have to say all of you have been a big help to both of us. can't wait to make her breath again!

frank



Frank, you can still buy the thumb screw assy from Merc, although they are not cheap! p/n 22477A4 $38 ea

[fbref5269]

thanks for the reply daren. i didn't think mrec still had them available. i'm hoping to get a used set if i can. rusty is fine. the evaporust product that paul christner wrote about in an earlier posting works great and reallt takes the rust right off. if i can't find the used ones i'll get them from mercury. thanks for the heads up.

frank

[Original Looper 1]

Frank,

Pay attention to what Daren has to say as he is one of the best of the young and upcoming Mercury mechanics that I know of. To say he is meticulous is an understatement.

Please keep posting as you restore the Loopers, I and I know many others are following your story with great interest.

thanks,

Paul A Christner

[fbref5269]

paul,

thank you for the insight on daren. i hope to tap into his knowledge as i proceed. i know roger will also. the more i thought about it it seems dumb to put an old pair of thumb screws one something i'm trying to make new. i am however very impressed with that evaporust you told us about!

here is a picture of the inside of the crank case that i posted pictures of a week or so ago. there is some stain let on the aluminum i can't seem to get out. any ideas out there? roger is trying the aluminum cleaner from orison and he's going to report on how it works. in the meantime what can i use to get the stain out. i know it's on the inside and may not matter. there is no residue left over on it and no pitting, so it's just stain.

right now i'm working on the outside of the crank case and carbs. the carbs cleaned up real nice with carb cleaner.

i'm ging to post a picture of the crank soon. not sure if it's worth saving. i have purchased a replacement and it looks brand new. the old one may be good to make into a lamp. that would interesting, old engine parts art.

thank you all for following the progress roger hindsdale and i are making.

frank

[fbref5269]

hi all,

here's a question.... if you look at the before picture on the inside of the crankcase you will see the outline of where the reed cage meets the crankcase. if you notice on the left of both the top and the bottom intake, the reed opening is covered by part of the crankcase. this is really noticable in the lower intake. would it help if i opened up the intake to match the reed opening? wouldn't the fuel and air flow better? i know it's not going to compete against the c's of today but i would like to have a nice running looper.

any thoughts?

frank

[RogerH]

Frank,
I noticed the exact same thing on my FD67. Seeing I have to replace my reed blocks I was planning on port matching the reed blocks and the crank case ports. Thus, I'd be real interested in the forum's response to Frank's question as well. I am planning on using the larger reed cages when I rebuild the motor. I'm assuming this should assist, rather than hinder, the air/fuel charge into the motor. Please advise if you think I should rebuild using the original small size reed cages.
Is there a reason why the locating pin was not used?
Regards,
Roger H.

[Tim Weber]

I am not a looper expert but I don't think it would help because to get more air in it you would have to have the reed block opened up as well. Carving on reed blocks is tricky. I think I would leave it just as OF designed it.

You may want to put some Boysen reeds in. If you eat one it won't kill the motor. I would guess .012 thickness. You may be able to get away with .010 but I don't know about a looper for sure.

Tim

[fbref5269]

tim,

i'm looking at the reed cage and the inside has been milled to open it ip. i've compared it to a stock mark 30 reed cage and it at least twice as much area open inside. if i get a chance i'll try to take some pictures of the mark 30 and the looper reed cage. actually, and i think roger has the same thing on his, the reed cage was milled in the back to allow lubrication to get the the crank journal where it was riding. i think roger had both of his that was and i only had the lower one.

the boyerson reeds will be used in the rebuild! i had 3 reeds eaten away, not broken just eaten.

frank

[Mark75H]

You may want to put some Boysen reeds in. If you eat one it won't kill the motor. I would guess .012 thickness. You may be able to get away with .010 but I don't know about a looper for sure.Tim

Tim, I can't even get a deflector to run on .012 thick reeds for more than 3 or 4 minutes at a time. You need to be considerably thicker ... maybe .020 I find that .025 will be more flexible than the original steel reeds and give excellent service life.

[mercguy]

Frank,

Pay attention to what Daren has to say as he is one of the best of the young and upcoming Mercury mechanics that I know of. To say he is meticulous is an understatement.

Please keep posting as you restore the Loopers, I and I know many others are following your story with great interest.

thanks,

Paul A Christner

thanks for the kind words Paul. Although, nowadays I spend more time working on E-Tecs than Mercs.........:eek:

[Tim Weber]

Sam,

I told you I wasn't a looper expert! I did not know you needed such thick reeds.

Tim

[fbref5269]

hi all,

the tower is apart and will go got powder coated next week. bearings will be here next week the the internals will be going together. waiting on a few parts and pistons. right now it's polishing time, by hand. working on the crankcase. the carbs came out nice. cleaned the gunk out of the block and will start polishing it tomorrow.

it did however start looking at the other looper. i took the konig unit off o see if it turned and it does!!! it looks like ole phil went crazy with locktite on the cone nut. tried a little heat and it wouldn't budge. i'll have to bump up the heat next time. now here's the first surprise on that unit..... it has a c crank. i thought the c's and d's all used d cranks? is that something that came from quincy or is it a field modification by phil crown? i do have a c crank ready if this one is a habitrail for mud wasps.

happy fathers day everyone,

frank

[Original Looper 1]

Frank and Roger,

Keep up the positive attitudes while restoring your precious Loopers. I get calls all the time from people that are following the restoration thread on both of your restoration Looper projects with great interest.

I hope to sometime in the near future go back through the Quincy Welding dyno cards and look for the ones on your particular motors. Frank, I know I've seen 2 or 3 cards with Phil Crown's name on them. When I find matches, I will scan and post them here. You already have history on your Loopers but the dyno cards are absolute confirming documents.

A while back, in a senior moment, I almost sold the entire collection of Quincy Welding dyno cards to a guy that I have since found to be, how shall we say, ethically challenged. I am so glad that I recovered my senses in time - it must have been divine intervention. Can you imagine where we would all be right now without such a great source (along with the serial number book) to verify and document engines with?

thanks,

Paul A Christner

[fbref5269]

paul,

the looper project has been and continues to be a lot of fun. i try to inject some humor in the postings and a lot of pictures. the history you have provided has been great and will be put to good use. when you go to any type of antique show there is more interest with the items that tell of documented history. the dyno cards would be great! i've seen gerry waldman's dyno cards you've posted and they are so cool. that was good you vame to your senses before letting those cards go.

right now i've been ploishing the aluminum, all by hand. although the elbows will be cleaned professionally. roger has a contact for this. the bearings will be in this week and that phase of the restoration will begin.

i have started to work on the konig lower unit on the other looper. i am having one heck of a time getting the cone nut off. i know it's a left handed thread, but there is a ton of locktite in there. is there a secret way to get the nut free? i'm trying heat , but it may not be hot enough. any suggestions?

thank all of you for following roger and my projects. knowing others have interest in them adds to the enjoyment.

until next time,

frank

[mac19f]

Look down inside the exhaust hole on top of the unit and see if you don't see one or two allen head screws. These bolt all the way into the cone nut assemble. Some of these "LINKS" units have threaded conenut assemblies in addition to the allen head bolts. Some are not threaded and will just slide out after the bolts are removed. Hope your gears are good. The pinion gear is pressed on the driveshaft and is a bear to change. Best I can tell the driveshaft needle bearings are not available anywhere but I have found a substitute. Good luck.

[fbref5269]

hi all,

i thought it might be a good time to tell everyone where the parts have been coming from. as you can see from roger's posting and mine some of the parts are history. i think i'm going to make a lamp out of my crank. here's the break down so far:

needle bearings for crank and piston: mercury, yes they still make them and they are not too bad as far as cost. .17 per for thre crank bearings and .15 for the piston. my merc dealer gave me a discount since i bought a bunch.

roller bearings: napa auto, yup the auto store. they even had the upper and lower crank bearings on the shelf. be sure to ask them if they can do better on the price. they will.

seals: napa again.

rods: ebay has several sellers who sell parts all the time. you can send them a message on one of the parts they are selling and they will respond. the rods come from gunter marine sales in ft worth texas. i bought several things from him and he's a great guy.

crank shaft: gunter marine. like mark75h saod there are a lot of d cranks out there.

the no longer avaivable parts from mercury: call the dealer and have them send you a list of which dealers still have these parts. they are drying up though.

pistons: richard ollhoff. great guy!!!!! his number has been posted on this thread by paul.

gen 3 stacks: richard ollhoff again.

hiope this is of some hellp to those thinking about jumping into a project like this. come on in, the waters fine!!!!

now back to polishing!!!!

frank

[Mark75H]

Look down inside the exhaust hole on top of the unit and see if you don't see one or two allen head screws. These bolt all the way into the cone nut assemble. Some of these "LINKS" units have threaded conenut assemblies in addition to the allen head bolts. Some are not threaded and will just slide out after the bolts are removed. Hope your gears are good. The pinion gear is pressed on the driveshaft and is a bear to change. Best I can tell the driveshaft needle bearings are not available anywhere but I have found a substitute. Good luck.

Good advice - I forgot the 1960-61 Konigs had the bolted in cones.

Greg have you found many rear load Konigs with significantly worn gears? I have 3 of them and all 3 seem perfect - did I get lucky?

Here's the set up of a bolted in Konig tailcone:

[mac19f]

I've got a half dozen of these units and I have found the gears to be anywhere from perfect to severely worn and broken teeth. Since I don't know the history of how each unit was run I can't say why the difference. Could be as simple as type of lubrication. There were two different sizes of these units although the look almost identical. And there were a variety of gear ratios. The smaller unit was used on all the Konigs of the era except the "D"engines. The gear ratio was different depending on the size of the engine. The "D" engines used the larger unit and normally ran the 1:1 ratio gears to handle the horsepower. If someone ran the lower ratio gears on the big engine that could account for the severe wear and tooth breakage. I ran a 12:15 Konig unit on my Merc "Cmod" for several years and saw no detectable wear in the gears.

[Master Oil Racing Team]

We ran 15:16 on the C and D Konig and 1:1 on the F. Because each tooth engages the same one around each time on the 1:1's it was our experience that a wear pattern could develope quicker and cause failure. This was especially true due to the greater power of these engines.

On the A's and B's we ran 12:15. Then at some point in the 70's Dieter went to 12:14 for some reason. It was OK for the B's, but it was really tough to reprop the A's to get out of the pits and still have good speed and acceleration. A lot of people went scrounging around to find old 12:15's.

As far as differenence in wear, you're right about lubrication. That is probably the leading factor, although if a unit starts getting water getting inside that can also create problems.

I sometimes think there were as many formulas and different ideas on lubrication as there were drivers in the pits. I have seen people run nothing but Lubriplate 90, to a mixture of 90 wt gear oil with teflon and STP, to all sorts in between. When we started we were told that Hypoid 90 with graphite was the way to go. I think somewhere along the way we tried different stuff, but it was always based on a heavier viscosity petroleum base grease with different additives. We lost many races with the D and F because of a blown unit in one heat. We drained oil between heats and it would come out dark gray, stinking and foamy. And when it was almost finished draining it looked like a thin film with metalflake draining into the pan. It went into the lower unit a clear golden color, but 5 or 6 minutes of racing did that to it. And many times there was pressure that released when the plug was taken out.

It was Tim Butts that got us to using a much lower viscosity oil. In fact he had been using Master Oil in his units for more than a year before he told us about it. I think he had assumed we had been using it all along until we asked him how come he didn't have the lower unit trouble we were having. What we learned from that, is the heavier greases puff up like whipping cream and with all that foaming it is not providing lubrication and instead because of the weight and viscosity, it is thrown away from the gears. That solved the vast majority of our lower unit problems.

With all the advances in technology there are probably lots of low viscosity synthetics now that will do a great job.

[fbref5269]

hi all,

one mystery is solved.... there were 2 bolts hiding under about an inch of sealer. got the sealer out and the bolts out. wondered why it was still not budging after heating it up..... well you need to drain the oil out of it first.... duh frank..... it should come out now.

today's delimia deals with the needle bearings in the nose and on the driveshaft in the d quickie lower unit. the torrington gb1112. i have called mercury, bearings and drives, a&w bearings(thebearingplace) and applied technologies and the answer is the same..... not in torringtons catalogue. this even surprised ted miller the looper collector. his reply to me was WHAT!!!

there is a b1112 but it is only good up to 4200 rpms, not good on a looper or much of anything. i did however find a bearing that may work, but need everyones feedback. here are the specs as i was given by a rep from applied tech.... gb1112 ..... id: .6875 , od .875 fits housing bore .870 to .8703 and a shaft of .6876 to .6873 ......

the substitute manufactored by ina sce1112..... id .687 , od .875 no specs onm the hpousing or shaft size... they have a spacer inbetween the needles and when put on the different shafts there is play just like the ones in the unit now. these are good for up to 16000 rpms in oil and 14000 in grease.

the question to everyone is will they work????? price of these were $4.84 each. i don't want to put these in and blow the lower unit. if they will not work, what will????

discuss amongst yourselves.....

thanks for all your feedback so far,

frank

[mercguy]

I've got a half dozen of these units and I have found the gears to be anywhere from perfect to severely worn and broken teeth. Since I don't know the history of how each unit was run I can't say why the difference. Could be as simple as type of lubrication. There were two different sizes of these units although the look almost identical. And there were a variety of gear ratios. The smaller unit was used on all the Konigs of the era except the "D"engines. The gear ratio was different depending on the size of the engine. The "D" engines used the larger unit and normally ran the 1:1 ratio gears to handle the horsepower. If someone ran the lower ratio gears on the big engine that could account for the severe wear and tooth breakage. I ran a 12:15 Konig unit on my Merc "Cmod" for several years and saw no detectable wear in the gears.


Greg, what size props were you running on your Cmod Merc with 12/15's? I have a Konny 12/15 unit Litzel sent home with me to try, but have yet to bolt it up, due to trying to figure out what prop to run?

[RogerH]

Frank,
The GB-1112 IS in the 2007 Torrington (Timkin) catalog. Take a look at section C-Pg81. There is a note to add the "G" to "B-1112" if the extra-precision bearing is required. The BearingPlace does have these listed and I have submitted a request for quote for enough to do yours and my two. Greg McCreery told me he got some GB-1112's locally in the Atlanta area as late as last Thursday. Will let you know tomorrow what I hear from the BearingPlace.

[David Mason]

We do for most of our bearings for the Mercs and OMC's. Lots cheaper than the factory bearings, and just as good if not better. They have yet to fail us in finding a bearing suitable for replacement on anything in the engines we race. Just take the old one and they mic it up and it is there in a day or so.

However, if you are restoring and need an original I most certainly understand the need to find them.

[mac19f]

Daren,
I ran that Cmod probably 7 or 8 years ago and don't remember the numbers on the prop. I'd have to see if I can find my race notebook from back then. I remember my best prop was a tulip blade Harry Pinner prop. As I recall the prop was originally made for 16:21 gears. The 12:15 unit is pretty close and it let me turn the C engine a bit higher.

Greg
19F

[fbref5269]

dave,

thanks for the info. i really don't need original bearings per say for the lower unit, just ones that will work and not blow apart. from what i can see they spec to the gb1112's but i won't know until i take them out. the spec sheets on them are the same. roger and i will get to the bottom of this mystery. i was looking at the beairng place web site at several listings for the gb1112's and then called them. they said that none were available. they are looking into it and will call me back. roger hinsdale emailed them last night and is waiting for a reply. sure would be nice if appiled's cross match works. they are only 30 min away from me.

frank

[fbref5269]

hi all,

todays discussion is the heads. on cly 2 and 4 it looks like something got loose in there and pitted the aluminum. the question is would it be wise to habe the heads skimmed off to make them smooth and also take out the same amount out of the bowl(sorry not sure what to call it). this way yhe cc's will not change and the compression should be equal on each cyl. i trust the advise i have received here and would like to do this if it will be wise. it looks like about .002 or .003 will be skimmed off. if nothing is done will this have any adverse affects on the compression? after the decision is made on the skimming the true polishing will take place on the heads. worked on the edge and it looks like stainless.

frank

[Tim Weber]

Frank,

I am fisrt a stock guy so take what I say with a grain of salt. We had a stock
55H that had one head all messed up and pitted. The spark plug came apart and part of the electrode got wedged in the piston. The piston acted like a hammer with that piece of sparkplug in it.

We honed the cylinders, put a new piston and rings in and it was one of our best motors. The CC's didn't really vary either.

What I don't know is if the mangled head on a looper will cause it to hit the top of the piston. I would think as long as you have the proper clearance, you'll be good to go.

Tim

[Frank Volker]

hi all,

todays discussion is the heads. ...the question is would it be wise to habe the heads skimmed off to make them smooth and also take out the same amount out of the bowl(sorry not sure what to call it). this way yhe cc's will not change and the compression should be equal on each cyl. i trust the advise i have received here and would like to do this if it will be wise. it looks like about .002 or .003 will be skimmed off. if nothing is done will this have any adverse affects on the compression? after the decision is made on the skimming the true polishing will take place on the heads. worked on the edge and it looks like stainless.

frank

You could probably remove as much as .005 or so on the underside of the heads with minimal effect on compression. I would do this on both heads. The milling might leave a small edge on the exhaust side of the combustion chamber, but you can just sand or scrape that smooth by hand to restore the radius. It isn't critical. I wouldn't take any material out of the combustion chamber.

After you do the underside of the heads, you should probably flip them over and make a pass on the bolt side to ensure that both heads are of equal height, since the two center bolts must contact both heads evenly. Again, were talking just enough material removal ( probably less than .005) to get things flat.


Frank V.

[Dave_E71]

Frank,

Here are the pictures of the towers
Top
Side
Bottom
Konig

[Dave_E71]

And here are a couple of our meager collection....

[fbref5269]

dave,

that's one fine collection. i saw something like that in the movies a few years back... national treasure.... you've got a lot of history there! heck i remember when pop ran some of those. that's right, i was very very young... i'm not old...

frank

[fbref5269]

frank v,

thank you for the input. i think .005 will do the trick, if that much. i saw a posting from 2004 of a d heads posted by swifterbullet and his were in worse shape than mine. i'm going to try to post a picture of the heads for you to see. that also makes sense to do both sides. we will do both heads. thanks again.

frank

[fbref5269]

hi all,

here are the heads i am talking about. after seeing the d looper switzerbullet had these don't look too bad. took it to two machine shops and they were a bit pricey. one guy wanted to use a belt grinder!!!! did not get a warm fuzzy feeling with him.

frank v, does it matter if the heads are cleaned up or just leave them be? what usually causes the pitting?

frank

[F-12]

Looks like some major ring problems. We ran into that on a few of the A's after we converted to nitro, but didn't see it much with just straight alky. The pits create hot spots that will cause problems if you don't get them taken care of. Since it is not a competition situation you would probably be ok though...........

[fbref5269]

charlie,

so you think ole phil used a little nitro in the looper?

i do want to run the engine and i would like it to stay together. one machine shop quoted $150 to do both heads both sides. how is that as far as price? even if io run it a little will the heat mess up the pistons and rings. one of the cyls was number 4 and it had about 20% of the piston gone.

frank

[Frank Volker]

Frank,

You could try taking a very coarse file and light running over the surface to remove the bumps. Next, you could put some coarse grit (220?) wet/dry sandpaper on a very flat plate and use a light rotary motion (holding head flat). Next, look at the head and check for flatness. Do the same on the bolt side. Do this for both heads. When things are flat, either scrape or hand sand a small radius on the edge that I've pointed out in the attached photo. The total arc of the radius is something around 90 degrees. It isn't critical, but try to make them all equal. The purpose of the radius is to provide a smooth transition of surfaces (maintain Coanda attachment) for the incoming scavenging fuel charge.

I'm not sure what causes the pitting. It could be some interaction with the painted gasket or simply deterioration of silicon or magnesium in the casting alloy. It goes without saying that if you can, you should test the heads and block for water leaks before assembling.

Frank

[fbref5269]

frank,

what you are saying then is machining may not be needed just clean up with the file and wet/dry? will always be at the bottom of the combustion chamber? i'll get the file and try it tomorrow.

learning something new every day. thanks frank.

frank

[RogerH]

Frank,
The heads on FD67 were in very good condition. I don't have any of the pitting you have. Would attach a picture but they are bolted to the block for media blasting and I don't have them back yet. The radius makes sense - great information. BTY, I ordered the GB-1112 bearings this evening.
Roger

[Gene East]

Frank N. and Roger

Listen to what Frank Volker tells you. He was a very inportant part of the Looper development program.
Frank holds an engineering degree from the University of Missouri. He wrote his thesis on 2 cycle engine exhaust systems. He used to talk to me about first harmonics and second harmonics and I had no idea what he was taking about. He designed pipes and I just welded what he designed .
Frank spent endless hours in the Dyno room at Quincy Welding.
I know for a fact that he wore out one dyno,perhaps two.
Few people have his credentials

Frank V.
Are you coming to DePue???

[Frank Volker]

frank,

what you are saying then is machining may not be needed just clean up with the file and wet/dry?

Yes. I'd try that before laying out cubic $ for machining.



will always be at the bottom of the combustion chamber? i'll get the file and try it tomorrow.

learning something new every day. thanks frank.

frank

The radius side is always the side toward the exhaust port. So, that would be the BOTTOM of #1 and #3, and the TOP of #2 and #4. It appears from your photos that #2 was sufficiently hammered to almost completely remove the radius. In the 3/4 photo, I can see a radius on #3, but almost no radius on #4, which shows little damage; maybe caused by insufficient head/piston clearance. The radius on #1 looks pretty much intact and could probably be used as a dimensional guideline for the other 3.

Almost always, the damage begins with a pin becoming loose and then exiting the ring land. Next, the ring spins in the groove until it hooks on the exhaust port. It almost appears in the photos that the pistons were making head contact. This could lead to the pin-escape and general breakage problem. I don't recall the exact dimension, but I think the deck clearance should be flush to about -.002 down when assembled. Also, there should be no protrusion of head gasket into the cylinder.

Frank V.

[fbref5269]

frank v,

looking close at the heads i see number 2 cyl took a nasty beating. that was the toughest piston to get out and had the dirt in it. i will be trying to smooth out the bumps this weekend. and i will tell you of my progress. your input is priceless. i was talking to roger the other day and saying how furtunate we are to have the crew from quincy following our progress.

more to follow. thanks frank for all your help.

frank

[F-12]

Thinking back I seem to remember a type of Epoxy that my Dad used one time in an emergency that withstood high temps and pressure. We had a ring problem with the Nitro A motor and broke it during trsting. Dad pulled it down at the trailer, smoothed it off as best he could and filled the deep spots with this 2 part goodie. We won 2 reats of A and I don't think Dad ever took the engine apart again. It ran until I changed over to DOH (2 or 3 seasons). Don't remember what it was but it might be worth looking into...........

[fbref5269]

charlie,

that might have been devon. as a matter of fact there is some used on the crankcase in cyl #1. that stuff will fix about anything.

frank

[F-12]

That is a good possibility. I know it was tough and I know Dad used it to build an A 'stock' horsefly merc to stuff crankcase and pad the cylinder head. That one was for when he knew someone was running a non stock motor. It was as fast as a B motor and as soon as we smoked the field, Dad would put it in the trailer and say "As long as there are guys breaking the rules, you'll see alot of that motor. If you play nice, we'll leave it in the trailer." Go Dad............

[Skoontz]

is what we used on Mc91B and 101B's in go carts. They used to design the engine to mount any way, upside down, left side, right side etc...And, what you would do is plug the ports using devon. So assume the cylinder was a square, and the side that had intake would be opened, then you would plug the side to the right...Then the side opposite intake would be exhaust, and you would plug the side to the right of the exhaust....Decide the cart handled better with the engine moved or twisted, just pull the epoxied plugs and shove em in the holes that you need to plug all over again.....

[fbref5269]

hi all,

sorry for not posting in a while but i'm waiting on the tower to come back from the powder coating place. he's a little slow. i'm actually on vacation in myrltle, sc for the week. as i was leaving i did get the elbows back but the camera was packed and i wasn't able to take any pictures yet. i will when i get back on sunday. i did put the reed cages together with new stops fron a mark 30. i seems that on 4 of the stops about 1/4 to 1/2 of the stop was missing. like in eaten away. i think that's what was being beaten into the heads. i guess nitro was the cause? can't think that plain alky would have done that. anyway the stops ate replaced and so have the damages reeds. that nitro is some nasty stuff. the looper must have been rode hard and put away wet. i filed the heads like frank v recommended and they were a little warped. had that corrected too. when i get back i'll work on the radius and post an after picture. thanks for the help frank.

this waiting for the the tower is very frustrating. but it will all be worth it. still want to fire it up before the snow comes. heck before the leaves change.

wish i could have made it to depue this year, i will be there the next time.

take care all,

frank

[fbref5269]

hi all,

i finally got the pieces back from the coating guy. i've attached the before and after pictures to this posting. i'm still waiting on a few pieces but the tower and lower unit can go back together. i've got to pick up a few bolts and washers for the block and work on the radius around the exhaust side of the combustion chamber. hope you enjoy the pictures.

frank

[Jeff Lytle]

I'm really looking forward to seeing these motors completed.

Hope one (both) of you remember to have someone with a digital camera set on video when you light them up for the 1st time. That would be a treat for all of us.

[Dave_E71]

I will be Jeff, I have the fuel :)

[fbref5269]

jeff,

i can't wait until we fire it up the first time. dave agustine, like he said, will be there. that fuel thing is important. he will be the camera man. i'm hoping to get others there too. i know big dave (dave, sr) will be there too. just like when i raced those many years ago.... i mean just a few years ago. that was when davie agustine was 9 years old.

i ned to polish the midsection of the block then bolt it to the block. waiting on one more part for assembly.

right now i'm trying to move my 86 yo mom into an apartment in a retirement community near me. sold her house in 6 days needs to move out by 9/25 and the apt won't be ready until december. let the fun begin.

frank

[Dave_E71]

jeff,

i can't wait until we fire it up the first time. dave agustine, like he said, will be there. that fuel thing is important. he will be the camera man. i'm hoping to get others there too. i know big dave (dave, sr) will be there too. just like when i raced those many years ago.... i mean just a few years ago. that was when davie agustine was 9 years old.

frank


This reminds me, since I'm too young to have run loopers with Og and the rest of the cavemen......

What is the mixing ratio for these things? Just alcohol and oil, no monkey juice......

[fbref5269]

davie,

i just read your message and that was the laugh i needed today. thank you.... me and my caveman possee can't wait to get the right mixture to fireup fc52 and start to make new memories.

og aka frank

[RogerH]

Frank and I have been learning a lot from several people who have enjoyed these motors for years. I really appreciate all your help, and we'll no doubt need more help before these motors make noise again.

I've fitted the new rings and was about to complete the assembly of the block. Two things will delay that for me. The best excuse is our daughter is about to have our first grand-child and we are leaving for NY this Sunday for the month of Sept. The 2nd reason almost doesn't count, but I have decided to make two new reed blocks for this motor. I just couldn't put it back together with the small cages that Phil Crown was running. This will take a while (after I get back from NY), but shouldn't be too difficult. I have them scribed for machining already. The rest of the motor is ready to be assembled. The LU is rebuilt and ready for paint.
Take care - see you in a month.
Roger

[fbref5269]

roger,

congrats on the first grandchild!!! thay are so cool. we have 2, grandson 3 and a granddaughter 6 months. your mission,, if you chose to accept is to spoil them rotten and feed them sugar before you give them back. one other thing, keep your wife out of the stores. whenever we go shopping there must be a nana magnet to the sale rack of kids clothes. kinda like when us guys go to sears and stay in the tool department. have a safe trip and we want pictures....

frank

[fbref5269]

hi all,

i need some help on how tight to fasten the bolts on the looper. but before i list the sizes i have top share a funny story that happened today. i was refereeing a freshamn high school football game today and at the coin flip the referee said he was going to ask the captains if anyone could guess who's picture was on the dollar coin they would win the toss. he had a 1976 ike dollar. there were 8 captains there(4 from each side). no one know who he was!!!! should i feel old cuz i knew who he was or is the school system not doing there job?

now back to the project..... the ehaust elbows are being fastened on with 1/4x20 socket cap screws with the small black washers made for them. the heads will be fastened on with 5/16x18 socket head cap screws with the black washers made for them. what's the tourque used on them? also what is the tightening pattern used to tighten them up?

the gasket material i'm using for the elbows and the midsection came from napa. it's brown and looks like cork, but it's not. the stuff is pretty tough. is this the right gasket material?

is there anyone out there who has a spare oven i can use to bake the enamel on to the head gaskets???? i've been married 33 years and i think that may be pushing the envelope a little. i think i reached my limit sunday when i was cutting the gaskets and assembling the block and the midsection on the dining room table using the wifes cutting board.

any help with the numbers would be great.

frank

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

This is something a good husband should never do is cook to cure VHT paints on engine components in your wife's kitchen oven. I gave my wife an excuse to go and take the kids to the in-laws summer home while I did the deen in her new gas range. The smell of the curing paint caused me to turn off the air conditioning, open all the windows and fan vent the whole house. Two days later when she came home the place still stank bad and I was in deep ****! There was no smoke of any kind during the process but You could still smell the effects some 6 months later and she never made me forget it, though we laugh about it 35 years later. The bad boy that I was I slapped my own wrist for and never did it again indoors. Bought an old 220 volt wall oven and set it up outdoors and did a lot more that stank up the neighborhood up from time to time but at least I never got the eyes like daggers look I got from here for up to 6 months later doing that stuff the first time. :)

[RogerH]

Hello Frank,
Will be back in TN around 10/1. Can't wait to get back to the motor projects. I used the copper gasket spray on the head gaskets. It doesn't need to be baked. I believe either Dick Olhoff or Gene East recommended I use that.
Our daughter presented the world with Holly Marie on Monday. Gramps is getting ready for her first boat ride! An advantage of being in NY allowed me to get to the Witney Point race. Met some old timers I started out with from the Triple Cities area.
I'll be needing the torque numbers as well.
Regards,
Roger

[fbref5269]

hi roger,

that's great news! grand children are great. whole new perpective on life. now you get to see a whole new generation grow and learn from us old timers.

thanks for the copper spray idea. i'm going to write gene and frank to see what brand to use. would like to get away from baking as long as it does the same job. the head gasket for the engine was painted black. i need to know how to remove the little bit of black paint before applying the new stuff.

also kinda thought you would like the tourque numbers too.

have a safe trip home.

frank

[bill boyes]

Jimmy died several years ago. maybe 5-7 seems like. He was a little older than I am, I believe, so if he was still living he would be late 70's or so, maybe even a little more. We were not real close friends, just lived in the same town and raced for a few years in the same time frame, late 60's and early to mid 70's. I believe he retired from driving himself in the mid to late 70's but I also seem to remember that some younger folks that went with him to help drove some of his equipment after he quit driving but still owned equipment. Rex Hall drove for him in the mid to late 60's when he was just a young squirt. Rex is now the Rossi dealer for the US and could surely tell you about some of the engines Jimmy had and he drove. Another source is a guy named Don Dando who is I believe now retired from TWA and may still live in the KC area. Might check the members list on BRF, he might even belong. I remember him as being a real nice person, and a good boat racer.

Sorry I don't know more.I have Don Dando's phone number if you want it P.M. me. He lives by the new Ford plant and has a ton of old motors.

[Original Looper 1]

Reply to Frank:

Your Quincy A Looper, #FA10, was originally purchased by Jack H. Schmittel according to the original Quincy Welding/ Precision Machine engine serial number log book.

Hope this is helpful. Maybe some of our viewers will recognize his name and have more info for you.

thanks,

Paul A Christner

PS: I get so many private emails from enthusiasts that are following you and Roger's restoration stories here of the Looper engines you 2 own. Bravo!

[fbref5269]

thanks paul,

i hope someone out there knows some background on the fa10. from the number it must have been made in 63 or earlier? any info would be great.

knowing a lot of people are following the progress makes roger and i feel a real part of the looper family. and it really does feel like a family.

we are still in need of the torque numbers if anyone knows them.

any thoughts of using locktite on the threads along with lock washers? or is that over kill?

frank

[Jeff Lytle]

Just my opinion, but loctite does nasty things to aluminum--Proceed with caution!

[fbref5269]

jeff,

thanks for the input. i know roger was blessing whoever put his d looper together with locktite. i was looking at their catalogue and they have some products you need heat to remove. what about using it in the steel studs where the bolts go? i guess that would only be to fasted on the mid section to the block. any idea what torque to use on the bolts?

frank

[RogerH]

Frank,
Just wanted to clarify that my motor used an "epoxy" like material - not loctite. It was a gray color and smoked / stunk real well when heated. I broke two allen sockets and 5 cap head bolts on the crankcase / head area. Had to heat them to about 350 degrees and then torque them out. Had to helicoil four of the head bolt threads that were shot. Other than that I got the rest out, but ALL needed heat. What ever that stuff was it was used on EVERY fastener anywhere on the motor, including the accessories. Remember that I'm almost certain that FD-67 was a kit / parts motor and assembled by Phil Crown or his mechanic. There were several indicators that this was the case.
Take care,
Roger

[fbref5269]

roger,

i remember you having to heat the bolts off. i thought it was locktite. i was lucky on fc52, not grey goo. not sure about the other phil crown engine. the elbows and the heads came off ok.

i spoke to bruce nicholson the other week and the engnine of his i have was also a kit. he told me they put it together the night before a race in the motel room! wonder if the cranked it up there too:)

take care,

frank

[Jeff Lytle]

Hey guys..........

If you want to use Loctite, use the blue 242. It will come off with normal tools. The red 262 has to be heated up, along with a bunch of others as well. I tried to avoid it, since it always seemed to react with the aluminum and caused a powdery mess when you needed to remove and re-install. After having to do it a few times, the threads were so messed up, a heli coil would have to be used. Now..........I ALWAYS loctited the heli coils, since they were in to stay, and were never removed.

Head torque? Well, it really depends on the stud or bolt grades you are using.

See http://www.boltdepot.com/fastener-information/Bolts/US-Recommended-Torque.aspx for a torgue table that'll help alot, but you have to either ask Gene, Paul or Frank to find out what grade of bolts they used. Most SHCS (Socket Head Cap Screws) are a minimum of grade 5, but some are 8 as well.

As far as sealing up the head, on Konigs I used to silicone bead around the stud and then add the flat washer. Really messy if you use too much, then add the lock washer then the nut. That usually worked, and seldon leaked water.

[Original Looper 1]

Frank,

I found 2 dyno cards for your FC-64, Jimmie Nichols, C Looper. I hope you're as excited as me to see them.

I'm still digging through the dyno cards, as the collection is huge. Also worth mentioning to you Looper & Quincy race engine collectors & fans out there - I have the complete, personal Quincy engine records that include port dimensions & sensitive piston dimensions for almost all of the engines from the 1950's through the 1980's and I am willing, at this time, to share some of this info with genuine Quincy racing enthusiasts on a one-to-one basis.

More to come.

thanks,

Paul A Christner

PS to FRANK VOLKER: I'm sure you remember spending extensive time with this engine, FA207, as there are lots of cards with your hand writing on them for this engine project.


(Please note: These pictures are for your enjoyment and are not to be copied or posted to any other web site without my written permission.

[fbref5269]

paul,

that is sooo cool. excited doesn't begin to cover the way i feel seeing the cards!!!! wow 80 hp from 500 cc's. that was a lot back iin '71. there must be thousands of cards if the engines came in multiple times. thank you for going thru all the cards to find them. wonder how many hours that took? the cards look to be in good shape considering they were from 1971. heck i bet some of the followers of this thread weren't even born yet.

thank you for taking the time to research the cards for fc64. that will be the next one restored after fc52 is completed.

thank you so much paul,

frank

[fbref5269]

hi all,

i would like to take a little time here and thank everyone who has replied to my postings. paul, frank, jeff, sam, gene and everyone else. all your input has been greatly appreciated. your encouragement has made this project so enjoyable and i look forward to completing the loopers and meeting some of you at the races and antique events.

i did slow down a little, we were in the process of selling my 86yo mom's house and moving her into carroll lutheran village. a good place for someone who was born in germany. most of my free time was taken up with that endevore. well she's in there and adjusting. first time in 35 hears she's not a snow bird. first time she's seen snow in 35 years!

merry christmas and a very happy new year. may we all remember the true meaning of christmas and live it all year round.

frank novotny
your humble looper friend

[fbref5269]

hi all,

hope everyone had a merry christmas and will have a great new year.

fc52 is able to do something it hasn't done in over 40 years, have a crank turn and pistons go up and down in the block!!!! i spent some quailty time over the weekend putting the pistons on the rods and the rods on the crank. then put the whole thing in the block. what a feeling. looking at the before pictures of the block and crank makes it feel all that much better. i still need to rebuilt one carb and will do that this weekend and put them on. going to put the elbows on as soon as i make one more gasket. i hope to update with more picture soon.

here is the progress so far.

frank

[Original Looper 1]

Happy New Year Frank and everyone else here at BRF,

It's hard to believe that the engine in these pictures is the same one that came out of Phil Crown's collection. You've put a lot of hard work into this restoration and it shows! I'm sure Chris would think your effort is remarkable. Can't wait to see it finished.

I want to let you and all of the other Looper and Quincy Welding fans know that you'll have another web site to visit soon. My family and I are finally doing what we should have done in the beginning. We are putting up our own web site honoring my father, O. F. Christner, and his racing legacy. We will still keep up our section here at BRF - Ron Hill has a great site.

The new site will not only cover the history of Quincy Welding/ Precision Machine, it will also cover much more. Stay tuned.

Thanks to All,

Paul A Christner

[fbref5269]

hi everyone,

paul, thanks for your very kind words. as i've said before, it's been a labor of love getting fc52 running again.

i put the elbows and the heads on. i did make sure about the internal radius on the exhaust side. i used the copper spray gasket stuff on the head gaskets, put 4 coats on. very easy to use.

so when i did that i said to my self, self whay don't you put it on the tower and see what it will look like. so i did. there is still work that needs to be done but i could'nt resist. so here are some pictures of the prioject so far. i haven't finished the lower unit yet sio it's not on the tower. i'm not real happy whith the spacer phil crown made and i have dave scott looking for one he may have. i would really like to get one that quincy made with the handles. the other 2 loopers i have have them. the sparkplug wires will also be replaced. like i said before, it's not finished yet.

hope you enjoy the pictures.

frank

[mercguy]

hi everyone,

paul, thanks for your very kind words. as i've said before, it's been a labor of love getting fc52 running again.

i put the elbows and the heads on. i did make sure about the internal radius on the exhaust side. i used the copper spray gasket stuff on the head gaskets, put 4 coats on. very easy to use.

so when i did that i said to my self, self whay don't you put it on the tower and see what it will look like. so i did. there is still work that needs to be done but i could'nt resist. so here are some pictures of the prioject so far. i haven't finished the lower unit yet sio it's not on the tower. i'm not real happy whith the spacer phil crown made and i have dave scott looking for one he may have. i would really like to get one that quincy made with the handles. the other 2 loopers i have have them. the sparkplug wires will also be replaced. like i said before, it's not finished yet.

hope you enjoy the pictures.

frank

I might have a spare "Quincy" powerhead adaptor plate (the one with the handles)...........

[F-12]

O. F. is looking down and is proud of what you have done. It is turnung out to be the beauty it was originally.(maybe a bit better) Thanks for sharing this project with us.

[fbref5269]

hi all,

dave augustine and i traveled to mays landing for an amoci antique meet on saturday. had a blast. met a lot of great people even came home with more than i took there... i'll explain later... here are some pictures of fc 52 at the show on engine stands designed and built by dave augustine. enjoy the pictures.

i'll be starting a new project soon. i'll be getting a b looper together.

frank

[Dave_E71]

..... here are some pictures of fc 52 at the show on engine stands designed and built by dave augustine.....
frank

Hey, wait a minute, these stands are version 1.0 and were designed and built in a couple of hours out of 2X4's, 2X6's and drywall screws (sorry Frank, I was lieing when I said I had them all figured out :p ). We need to get a bunch of inexpensive casters and build several more of the V. 1.5 (with wheels) stands for hanging your loopers on in the shop

Next set (V. 2.0), I'm thinking we'll break out the planer and get some nicer wood (oak?) and build some "show quality" stands for displaying your junque.