8 cylinder Konig outboard

[Tomtall]

Just got back from "Mark Suters" fall 2007 AOMCI dry meet. Took some pictures and will be posting a link to them later in the week. Had to share this one now though as it was one of my favorite motors in his collecton. Wayne Baldwin also had some input about this motor.It is posted in the following article.

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

It's sure nice to see all these monster engines being added to the these historical threads. They sure were something that dropped jaws and twisted necks!

[Master Oil Racing Team]

I'm afraid there were a couple of errors in the article Tom. I guess the info was compiled by Mark. He and I had a good conversation at DePue, but we talked about so much that it would be easy to get a little confused. I still need to send him some pics of the 8 from the Marshall Grant days.

I do not recall the 8 cylinder Konig ever winning a national championship. Charlie Bailey won in 1976 with a bored out D Konig and I won in 1977 with the 4 carb dual rotary valve Konig that we bought from Marshall.

This was the motor that I won with mentioned in the article. It was actually an OE and thus not eligible for the OF World Championships. The opposed 6 cyl. Konig was driven by Hans Krage who won the championship. I have a picture of the three of us at the start. I wish I could remember more about the race, but one thing that amazed me going down the back straight was that I was leading and Dan never caught me. Earlier during testing I remember him going down the same back straight and he was so fast, I recall that being the fastest I had ever see a Pro hydro run. Then when he didn't pass me in the race, I couldn't believe it. I think he broke a piston in the second heat.

That motor was clearly the fastest of the three on a straight, but not around the course. The 4 cyl of mine was fastest of the three around the course, and I think mine was as fast on the straight as the six. At least I was never challenged by Hans at any time and we all had wide, open sponson to sponson starts. Because of the height of the six, it was also at a disadvantage in the turns.

At the 1977 Nationals, Dan Kirts was driving the "stacked" 8 cylinder Yamato. At least as far as it took to get on a plane, then it broke a coupling.

The last time I remember Dan with the 8 was at Alexandria, but I forgot what year. If it was 1979, Jeff Hutchins won with Elmer Grades 4 cylinder Konig.

I have no doubt whatsoever about 130 miles per hour on a Kilo. I believe with the right boat, lower unit, propeller and driver it could do 140 or better.

[Jeff Lytle]

An awsome looking engine nonetheless. I didn't notice the water injection before on the older pics of it on a boat. Perhaps that's something Joe added later?

One thing I did notice though, the logo on the flywheel cover is the logo used by a company that produces custom wheels, not the logo Dieter used. The earlier Konig logos were blue, but didn't look like this.

Even the logo I use on my signature below this post isn't the same. I made it from memory using Windows paint before all the literature and stuff was posted here.

To make it 100 complete in my eyes, loose the orange tubing, replace it with clear, change the logos on the top, and get rid of the flat black on the pipes.
Don't get me wrong, this engine certainly is a gem, I would love to own it.

[F-12]

I remember being in Marshall's pits at Lakeland one year that he pulled someones Caddy down to the water (I think it was Scott Smith's) and used the battery and alternator power to fire his 8 banger. The power that came out of this combination was mind boggling. This is another one of the "My boat's too small" stories. From what I can recall, after it was up and running, when you squeezed the throttle the boat tended to twist around and go a little sideways. Makes perfect sense to me. It sure brought back memories when I saw it at the reunion in DePue. I still think if someone could put it on a boat that could handle the power, there wouldn't be a kilo record safe. (Are you listening Wayne and Tim)

[Mark75H]

http://image60.webshots.com/460/0/2/11/2014002110099263452TEzwKy_ph.jpg

I think Paul can nail it down for certain, but I suspect this motor is actually a 1965


The letter from Dick O'Dea is confusing ... it sounds like Crescent was bought by Volvo and dropped out of racing around 1966; that is way too far before the introduction of the Crescent as the C Super Stock Hydro motor. The Stock racing commission would never have approved a motor not in production as a "new" motor. I can look up some more of the details and clarify that story a little bit.

The information about the Evinrude X crankshaft is not 100% accurate as well. It was the intention of Joe Schauer to make a legal 59.999 cubic inch "F" crank ... but what he made (by accident) was a 61 cubic inch "X" crank. A new super motor with additional rotary valve inlets on the crankshaft and different crank bearings was developed for use with Schauer's long stroke crankshaft tooling.

I'd love to see Mark's stuff a bit more accurate ... and the technical info, too :)

[Matts]

The letter from Dick O'Dea is confusing ... it sounds like Crescent was bought by Volvo and dropped out of racing around 1966; that is way too far before the introduction of the Crescent as the C Super Stock Hydro motor. The Stock racing commission would never have approved a motor not in production as a "new" motor. I can look up some more of the details and clarify that story a little bit.


I think the O'Dea clarification letter is about correct, except for when they quit the 500 work and Volvo got involved (they bought the Crescent company in 1973). Makes sense, right? I'll bet it's tough to remember the exact years when talking about a time frame 40 years old. The same problem concern the swedish "old-boys" of Nymans, those I have talked to all remember a little differently, particulary when it nails down to dates. One single intrview is usually not enough. But I don't blame them, I have big problems remember things that happened 20 years ago:D

[Mark75H]

I think the O'Dea clarification letter is about correct, except for when they quit the 500 work and Volvo got involved (they bought the Crescent company in 1973). Makes sense, right? I'll bet it's tough to remember the exact years when talking about a time frame 40 years old. The same problem concern the swedish "old-boys" of Nymans, those I have talked to all remember a little differently, particulary when it nails down to dates. One single intrview is usually not enough. But I don't blame them, I have big problems remember things that happened 20 years ago:D


Exactly

My problem with the letter is it makes things that happened around 1973 seem like they happened around 1966 ... 7 years earlier. Mr O'Dea was the US importer and would seem like the #1 info source in the US. I won't blame his memory in this case, it could be the context of the letter, which is obviously in response to other correspondence or his writing style which I am not accustomed to.

I have a lot of reference material that shows the dates the motors were first used in the various classes in the US and the years the classes were popular. 1965 for the first year in the US sounds right. Mr. O'Dea gave Rich Yost a copy of the letter sent to him advising him that there were no more parts to be had from Sweden and I think Rich passed a photocopy on to me, 1973 sounds like the right year, too.

What I am afraid of is that in the future the letter will be held up as documentation that Crescent was 100% out of racing, no parts available and so forth by 1967. A photocopy of the 1973 letter from Sweden to go with the letter Mark already has would be helpful.

[Master Oil Racing Team]

Did I miss something here? I was reading about the 8 Cyl. Konig, then jumped into the middle of posts about Crescent and references to a letter. There is a little box with a red X inside on Sam's first reference to the letter. Is that where it is? I can't get it to open. Would like to read it.

In the meantime, here is the pic of one of the starts of that historic race at Marine Creek Lake near Fort Worth in 1977. I don't know if it is the start of the first or second heat. I think it is the first. As far as I know, no other pictures exist of this meeting of the 4, 6 and 8 cylinder Konigs. I do know that this is the only time these three ever competed in the same heats. AND they were the only motors present. It was a Konig duel.

I don't know why no other OF's turned out to race. The previous year Billy Jack Rucker tied Hans Krage in points and Hans won on time. So he at least should have shown up for a rematch but he didn't. The previous year there were a full field of legal F's so I was not allowed to run my 4 cylinder as it was legally an OE engine. At this race however we needed boats, so I was allowed to run and count it as a Western Division race. After Dan blew a piston, we agreed not to run the final two heats as it would only be a two boat show. So Hans was a back to back OF World Champion. This is probably where Mark's confusion came in. The opposed 6 won the championship, but I actually won the race.

We are just approaching the start and Dan is preparing to nail it as are Hans and I. Dan has the 8 cylinder on an experimental Butts Aerowing that Tim built for us and delivered to Lakeland in 1973. We named it HONCHO. It didn't have enough lift for the motors we were running and around 1974 my Dad gave it to Marshall Grant specifically to run the 8 on. It was still not enough boat, but it was much better for the motor than the Byers that Marshall had it on before. The motor didn't have the water injection at this time, and the rig now belonged to Dan. Marshall had gotten completely out of racing by now.

In the middle, I had the four carb, two rotary valve Konig that we bought from Marshall in 1974. It was much more reliable than it would seem to be with the two rotary valve belts in contact with one another while running. The lower unit was the biggest problem. We had it on our Butts SHADOWFAX which was the first of a winning Aerowing design that Tim built.

On the inside is Hans George Krage with the Konig opposed 6. He would fire it up and drive out to a point on the race course and kill the engine. As the clock ticked down, he would fire it up and make a straight line to the start. The crank in this motor was the big problem. It never made a good rough water motor as the crank would twist and hit the inside of the crank case. I was at Berlin when it made its debut. The day before the race Hans revved it too high on the dock as they were preparing to launch it and twisted the crank. If a lower unit blew, it would rev up and the crank would twist. The crank had 120 degree banking so although the pistons were opposed, they were not 180 degrees from the other two sets of cylinders. (I have incorrectly posted somewhere previously that it was an inline 6, but that was not the case. I guess I was thinking of it being another pair of cylinders stacked higher) Walt Blankenstein was at the shop when all of this was going on and he told Dieter he would forever have problems with this motor. Walt said the configuration was "Statically and dynamically out of balance". I believe the proprider Hans ran was a Konig. I am not sure if Bernie Danisch built the "Konig" boats for Dieter or someone else did. They were not built at the motor factory as far as I ever saw.

[F-12]

You can tell he is ready to pull the trigger on it............I have very seldom seen Dan that far over the steering wheel. Great picture Wayne......Thanks

[Mark Suter]

From what is being posted in this entire thread it is very apparent that my write-up does contain numerous errors. I knew very little about the motor before the DePue Reunion and talked to a lot of people about it at that event. A lot was said and it was difficult to separate fact from fiction (as Wayne suggested, I obviously captured some of both). From your great input, I can now go back and revise my write-up to set the facts straight. I do sincerely appreciate all of your comments... they have all been very helpful.

I thought the water injection system was something that Joe Michelini had added. I was told at DePue that the 1/8" tubes entering the exhaust header pipes were there when the powerhead was received by Marshall. Since they were never used when the motor was raced, the injection system should be removed to be more historically correct and each of the four entry tubes should be capped. I will take off the incorrect graphics (they were on the motor when I got it) and try to match the paint with colors that can be seen in the early pictures of this motor that were posted on BRF in the past. Thanks again for the help.

[Chris Hellsten]

Tom,

Can you give me any info or pictures on the motor shown to the right of the 8 cylinder in the first picture. I believe it is a Konig 125. My dad, Pete Hellsten, built that for me when I was 10 years (circa 1976) old. The little bit I can see of the crankcase was machined by him after I cracked the original Konig casting.

Thanks,

Chris Hellsten

[Master Oil Racing Team]

Joe called me today after he saw this picture and I could have sworn I had posted a while back, but maybe not. This was the first time he remembered seeing it. The historical aspect really struck him. It was a one time occurrence where these three engines, and only these three unique engines were in competition with one another. And the other thing Joe thought was that it can't happen again. He was complementing me on the pic when I reminded him that I didn't take it, I was in the boat. He wanted to know who did. It was Debbie.

After asking Joe to recall what he remembered, he confirmed about what I did. I remembered Dan coming along side of me but not passing me. What Joe recalls was that I came out of the turn first and was gone. Joe said down the back straight "Dan was reeling you in, but then you came to the turn". That's about what I remember also. It went on for a couple of laps, then Dan must have decided if he was to get by me he was going to have to be more aggressive in the turns then the lower unit went. I am thinking now that the piston blew in a different race and it was the lower unit that blew. In any case, Joe and I both think the 8 went down in the first heat.

We aren't quite in the racing mode Charley. I didn't include the roostertails in this shot. It is about the time we see that we are all right for a wide open start. We were pitted about 100 yards from the clock so I think Debbie caught Dan just as he was getting set to put the hammer down and hunker down for the race to the turn. You can see how much chine is wet.....but not for long.

[Tomtall]

Chris - I am sorry but I do not have any pics of the 125. Mark has so many engines in his display it would take a better part of a day to take pics of all the engines and tags. As far as the history of your old engine, I think Mark could probably help you there.

I just want to thank everyone for posting your input on this thread. It's turned into a keeper.:)

[Master Oil Racing Team]

Mark, I have intended to send you some pics, but just been busy. I will pull some different angles so you have an idea of what it looked like when Dieter first brought it over. Charley Bailey was driving it at Lakeland as Billy Seebold had quit Pro and gone to OPC and Marshall had not yet tapped Dan kirts to do the driving. I will include a copy of the three racing at Fort Worth. Luckily your 8 is in the foreground so it stands out from the other two.

BTW I saw the display of your stuff on the other thread. Fantastic.:cool:

[Original Looper 1]

I'm really enjoying this thread about Mark's Konig 8.

Mark's B Looper is a late 1966 or very early 1967, originally owned by Bill Wanamaker. Through extensive research, it appears currently (unless better documented info appears) that the 1st race where a Quincy Looper appeared, was in the spring of 1965.

Wayne, in February of 1976, at the Worlds at Firebird Lake, near Phoenix, Arizona, was the first time I actually got to spend quality time with Dieter Konig. He had the German team with him. Jim McKean had his big team there too. I was there with our new Quincy Z - B engine. Wayne, I also met you there for the first time. Dieter was quite a gentleman. I took an immediate liking to him, even though he was our fierce competitor. He was asking me as many questions as I was asking him! The most amazing thing I remember was the 6 cylinder Konig ran just as fast without the expansion chambers as with them on. Later I had a long discussion with my father about that. He told me there was an unusual resonance that only occured to such a significant degree with a 3 or 6 cylinder 120 pulse firing 2-cycle engine.

I have many pictures from that great event which I intend to post when I have time to sort through them all.

Jeff, here's a little Konig eye candy for you and all the other Konig fans out there. The tie tacks and labels were given to me by Konig himself.

thanks,

Paul A Christner

(Please note: These pictures are for your enjoyment and are not to be copied or posted to any other web site without my written permission.)

[Master Oil Racing Team]

I am looking forward to your pictures Paul. I never saw those tie tacks before.:cool: Dieter had a great respect for your Dad's abilities Paul. He was a good guy as you found out, and his curiosity about motors was unlimited and endless.

Here is one angle of the 8 from Lakeland, Florida in 1977. It has the starter on it. I don't remember right now when I first saw the motor, but I could have sworn it was at Lakeland and it took two synchronized ropers. Need to do some more research. May have to call Marshall.

Mark, forgot to ask earlier, but what is the serial number? Is it a wierd non standard Konig number? Or were there at one time a serial number on each block? Or was it just a standard number as Dieter would use beginning with the year of manufacture?

[Mark Suter]

Wayne, that is a great picture. That will really help to get the correct decals and to get the colors right. Dan Kirts told me that the motor did indeed have a rope sheave on each crank at the onset and that it took two synchronized ropers to start it (except when Gene East started it by himself). Since starting was so cumbersome, they opted to put the two Fiat starters on to make things a bit easier. I have looked over the powerhead and have found no identifying numbers. However, I haven't had all of the ancillary parts off so the numbers may be hidden. Any suggestions on where to look?

[Mark Suter]

Jeff, you indicated the flat black paint on the pipes was wrong. The pics I have looked at show black pipes. What color do you think they should be??? I agree that the decal and the orange fuel hoses must go.

[Bill Van Steenwyk]

I had the good fortune to be present at what I believe was one of the first if not the first, test of the 8 cyl Konig. As Wayne mentioned, the race site was Lakeland, Fl., and the test site was in an Orange Grove about 15 or so miles east of Lakeland that I don't remember the name of. We used to test there a lot in the 70's, but lost the site for some reason or another, and the name escapes me now.

Marshall showed up with the motor, a quite large (for the time) Byers hydro, and Charlie Bailey was there as the driver as Wayne mentioned, before Dan Kirts, but after Billy Seebold. The battery that was being used for energizing the starters very quickly discharged and since battery power was needed, and I wanted badly as did everyone else in attendance to see the motor run, I pulled the Ford Galaxy 500 rent-a-car I was driving out into the lake far enough so Marshall could get the jumper cables from the car battery to the back of the boat. I sat in the car with the engine reved up to get all the voltage possible to the starters and he tested that way for quite a while. The engine bay in the car had the water clear up about halfway, so the fan blades were picking up water and throwing it everywhere, but who gave a damn, we were there to see the 8 cylinder run. After it was all over with, we had to get another car or truck to pull my car out as it had sunk into the sand bottom of the lake up to the front axle and I was stuck but good.

I seem to remember that Marshall's chief concern about both testing and racing the motor that weekend was a getting a prop with a very small diameter but enough pitch for the hp/torque the motor put out, as with too large a diameter prop it wanted to swing the back end of the boat around under acceleration. He mentioned this numerous times and I think he had some props sent in trying to find the right combination of small diameter and high pitch so as to eliminate that problem. Never heard whether that was a problem specific to the Byers boat, or any other boats they put the motor on.

I have been surprised to see pictures and the actual motor purported to be this engine at the DePue reunion. I heard that when Marshall quit, he gave the motor to Danny and he made two 500's from the one 8 cyl motor. I have no personal knowledge of that situation, but that was the common knowledge story going around at the time.

I hope the motor on display now is really the orginal one, as it was a big part of the history of PRO Racing and Konig technology at the time, and since there will never be another it would be great if it has been preserved. That begs another question?...Could there have been more than one? Maybe Danny could put that question to rest as he was supposed to have ended up with the engine.

[F-12]

It was Lake Matty...............Uncle Walt's favorite testing lake.

[Bill Van Steenwyk]

Lake Matty is correct. Thanks Charley. Usually what happens to me these days is I can remember what I did 30-40 years ago but not what I did or where I left something yesterday. Was it spelled Matty or was it Matte, anyway it was a great place to test. I just knew that one year we went out there to test and couldn't get back there through the orange groves anymore.

I also had an opportunity in the same time frame (mid-late 70's) to see I believe I remember John Sherlock testing a quite large and beautiful 3-point hydro with a Merc V-6 on it. Really scary fast and across the lake in what seemed to be only seconds and almost out of sight. I think I might have some pictures of that and will see if I can find them. Probably took some of the 8-cylinder testing but have no idea where they would be now.

[F-12]

That same lake was the place where John Yale was testing one of Dick ODea's outfits with one of Dick's aluminum shafthousings that he liked so much. The lower unit snapped off, swung up and around by the cooling hose, and John grabbed it out of the air just as the tubing melted through. Good Save John!

[Master Oil Racing Team]

Wish John would have been on the Dallas Cowboys defensive unit a couple of weeks ago.;)

I have a few pics Bill Van, but only in the pits. It's kind of coming back now that the subject is up. Joe talked to Marshall today and he never roped it. The motor did come to Marshall in 1974 at Lakeland with starters included. Marshall told Joe that he didn't think it could be started with ropes. I have in my mind that it was at least tried. If it was, it would have been with the Kirts'.

I will try to post a few pics from Lake Matty in the morning, but it maybe in the next day or two. Joe also may have some other comments he got from Marshall today.

One thing Joe told me after talking to Charlie Bailey today was that Charlie DID NOT like driving it. He said it was too heavy. But remember. At that time Marshall had that big diameter right hand rotation prop. Just imagine trying to drive on a 1 2/3rds mile circular course with a right hand rotation prop constantly trying to pull the tail end to the right. Might as well tie a rope to the bow handle and swing the rig around counter clockwise.:eek:

BTW. The motor did not run as well at Lakeland as it did at Lake Matty.

[Jeff Lytle]

Hi Mark............glad we are on speaking terms. I was a little worried after re reading my post about the 8. I had hoped you read it with the intent I had posted it--That having the engine 100% original makes it all the more worth having, and admiring :eek: by guys like me!

Guys used to try all kinds of different stuff on their pipes, rust paint, high heat stuff etc., and even chrome. They looked real pretty, but never won races it seemed. Someone told me years ago (a little foggy here--cannot remember name) that lack of heat displacement on the exhaust pipes cost you horse power. I could see the point with the chrome, as it is a real heat holder.

Most of us just used to use WD-40 or some kind of spray lube on the pipes, to keep them from rusting. They looked nice n' shiney too. With age, the pipes used to turn a chocolate brown colour, and stayed that way. The elbows used to turn almost black, but the pipes stayed that nice brown. I guess the only way you arwe going to be able to copy it is strip the flat black, and take her for a rip! :cool:

[Master Oil Racing Team]

I always painted our pipes flat black, including elbows, but then after time they got the look you describe. But, I always came back and redid them before they got too far gone. That is how we raced them. Now you're telling me that that's not authentic? ;) :D You know what's not authentic. When I saw all these beautifully restored engines and I am having trouble with making mine look so great, I painted the elbows glossy black. I thought they looked kind of cool, but I would never race them that way. So now do I have to go back and remove the glossy black and not do the flat black we raced with?:confused: :D

Here is a pic from Lake Matty. The first test of the eight cylinder Konig of Marshall Grant's. Left to right: Baldy Baldwin, in the background by his rental car..Bill Van Steenwyk, Jack Chance, Marshall Grant, Ray Hardy with the Bud, Charlie Bailey, and to the far right Tim Butts' Dad. (I have a brain malfunction on his name right now).

[Jeff Lytle]

Uh oh..............I'm in trouble now!!

We're just dumb Canadians man, what the hell did we know anyways! :D

[MN1]

Is that a red plastic battery box cover on top of the motor?
Mark

[Master Oil Racing Team]

That's what it is Mark. It is just setting there to cover the ignition while Marshall was doing work in the pits.

[Master Oil Racing Team]

Joe talked to Marshall last week about the 8, but Joe has been too busy to put it down so I'll relay what Marshall told Joe.

He never cranked it with a rope. He said he doubted it could be done. I have a vision in my head to two people trying to crank it on a count. I DON'T have a vision of them starting it however. So my memory could be just a bunch of us standing around and trying to figure out if it could be done. If there was any bunch of racers that may try it though, that would be the Kirts family.;):D

Marshall said it would take at least three boats to work out a setup. The Byers and the Butts were never purchased specifically for that motor. So what Marshall meant was having boats built and tested specifically to run that motor on. He also had it in his mind that the final boat would be very long, and a cabover type where the boat would rock over and get the transom up. There has been many years past since the motor was run and a lot of boat design changes. I myself would think it would be nice to try it in a caspule boat sitting up with power lift and trim and being able to sit in the cockpit with both hands on the wheel rather than to hold on to the steering wheel with one hand and the throttle in the other. I can't imagine what shoulder strength it would take to really race it hard in a kneeler.

As far as top speed, Marshall thinks it would do 150mph and he was one of the three persons that drove it. I think Marshall knows what he is talking about.

Of course as we all know the weak point was the lower unit. There was just nothing else out there to go to. Imagine all that horsepower and only about 20 cc (I forget the capacity of a Konig unit, but it wasn't much) of lubricant for the gears and bearings. Marshall told Dan to start with the rest of the field, get to the first turn with them and tip-toe around the corners. Then when he got straightened out, get it up to speed. He told Dan if he eased through the corners he would have enough speed down the straights to pass boats then increase his lead. That worked until that historic race at Fort Worth. Joe laughed when he told Marshall that worked until he came up against his own former motor. Just what Marshall said would happen did at that race. Marshall told Joe that if you had to really race that motor, the lower unit would only be good for two laps. Ironically, before Joe called Marshall I was picking his brain to see what he remembered when Dan and I got into the heat of the battle. Joe said Dan blew his unit after two or three laps. That's about what I remember. After we came out of the first turn I got a big jump out of the corner and Dan caught me going into the next turn. I guess previously he had enough speed to get to the next turn first. Dan could see the handwriting on the wall and must have figured he was going to have to push it through the turns to get around and it was just too much for the unit.

Marshall also said he didn't put the water injection on---it was Dan.

[Master Oil Racing Team]

My friend and old racing partner Clayton Elmer sent me these photos last week . I was telling Joe about them and he said that one photo needed to go on this thread. It was similar, but much more famous and spectacular about the battle Dan Kirts and I had between the 4 and 8 cylinder Konigs.

It was the NOA Nationals Championships at Lake Spivey near Atlanta in 1963. This photo is the start of F Hydro. The numbers are too faded to tell who is in the cabover on the inside. Next to the inside and the lead boat in this photo is Clayton Elmer in no. T-60. In the middle of the three boats is Jim Schoch in V-5. Outside of the three is Hu Entrop in R-12.

Clayton was in and out of the first turn and began to outstrip the other competitors. When he got to the next turn, Hu Entrop had come up alongside the outside of Clayton. Clayton's boat had superior manueverability and accelleration over Entrop's 6 cylinder cabover. On every straightaway Entrop would get his cabover flying and running at trememdous speed, but always catching Elmer at the turns. He could not get around. It was a great race remembered by many. It was captured by Jim McKay on ABC's WIDE WORLD OF SPORTS. To me it is THE most famous and historic duel in the history of PRO racing. The crowd was on its feet watching as each lap Entrop pulled up to Elmer, but was unable to get around as Clayton blew down the corners and was off again. Hu knew that Clayton would cross the finish and get the checkered flag if he didn't do something. The start finish line was before the point where he could catch Clayton.

On the final lap, Entrop held the throttle down and was determined to keep the speed up until the last second before turning. It has been a long time since I talked to Clayton about this and don't remember, but he may have actually pulled ahead of Clayton at this point when they got to the turn. What happened next was most spectacular. Just imagine how this beautiful cabover was flying at top speed, clear of the water. Then Entrop makes the turn, but his cabover is not set yet. When the sponsons fully set in the water he is sideways. The water explodes and the boat does a specacular barrel roll. Clayton said there was a point sticking out in the water where a photographer was laying down shooting pictures of Clayton and Hu each time they raced down one straightaway.

Clayton tried to track down that photographer and get some pictures, but he was never able to find out who he was. Those would be photos for a boat racing museum.

[Mark75H]

I think this is one picture from that event:




http://www.outboardracing.com/images/image1404.JPG

I thought there were more, but this is the only one I could find on Charlie Williams' site. The photographer may have been Bob Carver

[Jeff Lytle]

I sized and flipped the image, and it looks like Hu it tryin' to tell Clayton exactly what he thinks about the whole situation! :D

[Master Oil Racing Team]

Sam, I was just on the phone talking to Joe and he said "Wow...Sam just posted the photo of what you just described about Entrop." I got on the site to take a look and told Joe, "This is what Boatracingfacts is all about.":cool::D

I had intended earlier to go on and give credit to the previous B&W photo I posted and this is a good time to do it. It was taken by Harold Rose out of Chattanooga, Tennessee.

[Master Oil Racing Team]

Hey Jeff, Joe was wanting to know who is the cabover on the inside was and I told him the photo was too faded and I couldn't pick out a number. Also, when you enlarge it and do some contrast enhancement there happens to be a thumbprint across the driver and also about where the boat number should be. Joe said "We need forensics to help". Any possibilities of figuring that out here.

BTW, looks like you got it right on that enlargement.:D

[Jeff Lytle]

Unless someone else knows who it is, it looks like it will remain a mystery. I tried enhancing like you did, and even inverting the colors which helps alot, but no dice. The thumb print, along with the driver reflection on the deck makes it unreadable.

[Original Looper 1]

I dug through my old archives of racing memorabilia and found the original program that I saved from the World Championship at Lake Spively. As you can see, the date of this event was September 10-14, 1964.

I'm not near a scanner at the moment, but maybe later I can scan these for better detail. Meanwhile, enjoy the pictures from the original program.

More pictures to come.

thanks,

Paul A Chrisnter

(Please note: These pictures are for your enjoyment and are not to be copied or posted to any other web site without my written permission.)

[Original Looper 1]

Here are some more pictures from the original program. I hope you all enjoy them as much as I enjoyed posting them here for you.


thanks,

Paul A Chrisnter



(Please note: These pictures are for your enjoyment and are not to be copied or posted to any other web site without my written permission.)

[Mark75H]

My problem with the letter is it makes things that happened around 1973 seem like they happened around 1966 ... 7 years earlier. Mr. O'Dea gave Rich Yost a copy of the letter sent to him advising him that there were no more parts to be had from Sweden and I think Rich passed a photocopy on to me, 1973 sounds like the right year, too. .... A photocopy of the 1973 letter from Sweden to go with the letter Mark already has would be helpful.

I found the photocopy ... according to that correspondence, dated December 5 1976, the last Crescent stuff was shipped from Sweden to O'Dea in 1976, more than a little bit later than inferred in the other letter.

[epugh66]

That photo of the cabover crash has bare hills in the back ground. Lake Spivy was just south of Atlanta and would probably have a cover of pine trees.

My dad says the Lake Spivy course was a "ball buster" with a tight turn and a large turn in the big part of the lake.

[Master Oil Racing Team]

I was wondering about those hills also, and I happened to luck upon the answer. I was going through and organizing a bunch of old magazines Johnny Dortch gave me and came upon the very photo Sam posted. It was at Moses Lake and I believe the year was 1957. It was Bob Carver who took the photo of Hu.

I also found in the pile the same program that Paul posted and additionally one from the 1963 NOA World also held at lake Spivey. The question is, which hear did the famous race take place? I'm thinking it was the 1964 race that Paul mentioned. Reason is, I saw the race on Wide World of Sports shortly before I started racing and that would put it in 1964. I will call Clayton and find out.

[Master Oil Racing Team]

The photo was the start of the race that the famous duel took place in 1963. It was aired on ABC in the spring of the following year. Now here's some bonus info. The 6 cyl merc on the cabover on the inside was driven by Raymond Jefferies. Clayton was driving Raymond's boat and they were both sponsored by Brady Marine out of San Antonio. Clayton had qualified everything but blew up all his motors and had only one boat that would float. Brady put Clayton in Raymond's boat and Raymond in the cabover. OF Christner loaned him a C which he finished second with in C hydro. In fact, Clayton had a good payday, but no championships---only seconds. After winning that first heat of F hydro, he jumped the gun in the second heat by about 6 inches.:(

ADD: Jeff....about the mystery driver--Joe wanted me to tell you that sometimes good detective work can do more than forensics. But I told him it was more like the Pink Panther....stumbling and bumbling onto the answer.

[Rog Dykehouse]

I just found this same picture Of Hu Entrop's spill in a June 1954 " Boat Sport" magazine where it stated that "He swam back to his boat, started the motor and came in third. He is from Seatle . The flip occured at Moses Lake, Wa."

The exact same picture was also published in the Summer of 1960 issue of
"Power Boat Quarterly" where their caption was: " The Hu of today doesn't do this, but the Hu Entrop of 1953 dug in his F hydro sponson. The boat spun, flinging Hu in upward arc of 40 feet before he hit the water. It seems unbelieveable , but Hu mangaged to swim back to the boat and finish third in the heat.

The pictures I have of Hu's rig during that time period show a modified four cylinder Mercury with open exhaust and no pipes. He was also using an additional rudder mounted on the transom and controlled by a tie rod from the rear of the motor.

I'll look for those pictures and post them. Rog Dykehouse

[Master Oil Racing Team]

You're right on the date Rog. It was 1963 that the spill took place on Moses Lake. I look forward to your other pics. BTW Rog, I found an article on the 1962 NOA Nationals at Michigan that you sent me the roster from. Maybe some future posts regarding that.

[oldalkydriver]

I remember receiving a letter from John Toprahanian while in Viet Nam late 1963. John explained the races as much as he could and sent a few pictures of my dad, Hu, Burt Ross and I think Glen Campbell. I don't believe my dad drove John's rig much after 1962. So it was either Glen or Craig Spencer.

I thought John told me it was Burt Ross on the inside in that photo, but is was most defenitly Mosses Lake, Washington. Everything else is a little fuzzy as that was not one of my best years.

Yes, Lake Spivey was a ball buster. My first out of California race where I didn't know anyone. I worked for Atlanta Dairies Ice Cream Divison and had just meant Ralph Donald. I believed he lived in Marrietta, Georgia at the time. I only raced 'A' Hydro one time as I blew my one and only engine. Sold the boat to someone from Alabama. I believe the race was late 65 or 66. The next time I saw Ralph Donald was at Alexandria in 1976. After Toprahanian had gone threw 3 drivers and engines, I told him about Ralph. Some place in my garage in Yuma, Arizona I have a picture of Ralph, whomever rode deck for him, John T. and myself just before the five minute gun for 'F' Runabout. When I return to the states, I'll find and post it.

[Master Oil Racing Team]

A Thanksgiving bonus for Mark Suter. I have gotten away with doing practically nothing so far today except chop some vegetables and make a pie crust. So Mark, here's some other angles of your 8 cylinder Konig. I happened to notice the unit when it was back lit and it appeared to be polished aluminum as all Konig units are instead of the blue that Dieter painted this one. I checked the date. All were FEB 74. So I went back to look at that one laying on the trailer. You can see after the test some of the blue also started coming off of the right side. These pics are of the first race for this motor.

[Mark Suter]

Wayne, these pics are great because they show so much detail. Thanks for finding and posting them. They will really help to make the motor more historically correct. The lower unit is currently black (not polished) but will be repainted blue along with the Fiat starters. The one pic clearly shows the coil pack and how it was mounted in the boat. Fortunately, they are the same coils and coil brackets that are still on the motor... they just have to be pulled off the top of the cylinder blocks and moved to the faux transom on the display stand. I already have decals for the sides of the top cover... they aren't an exact match for the ones in the pics but are very close. One thing that I did notice is that the original top cover was quite a bit bigger than the current cover (the current one had to be smaller to enable mounting the coils on top of the cylinder blocks). The cover shape has the same basic look as the original so I don't think I'll bother to remake that.

Many thanks again to you and all of the rest of the guys that have helped straighten me out on the history of this motor and what it should look like (and numerous other motors). If any of you are ever traveling through the Detroit area, be sure to look me up and stop in and see how this motor turned out and check out the rest of my collection.

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

I am just mesmerized at these monster engines turning up and being posted on this Outboard History section. I gather that there were quite a few out there that were tried in one configuration or another under different brands of powerhead manufacture. I am enjoying all the pictures and write ups. This is hopping to see more found and posted! :)

[Tomtall]

Well the Konig was restored to its original glory this past winter. Mark Suter appologized for having the wrong rotation prop on the engine for display during the fall AOMCI meet at his house. That's OK Mark it looks awesome!

[Master Oil Racing Team]

Great piece about Mark's Konig Tom. On the first pic you took it struck me that no serial number or model number was listed. No surprise...really, but I just never thought about that before. Two cylinder Konigs started with F, the fours with V...I never saw the serial number of the 6 three cylinder opposed (I never looked). I came across some info not long ago that I will send to Mark regarding the 8. His display is absolutely complete.

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

After restoring the Anzani twin block C Alky here I got quite a rundown from Tim Chance on what it took to start it. According to Tim it was one man who was some 350 lbs of muscle who would take the starting rope and wrap it around one flywheel and start it. According to Tim there was no one else who could do it and he seen two ropes from 2 sides each on one flywheel and they couldn't. If it took that to start a 30 cube 4 cylinder coupled twin Anzani so how on earth could a person use a rope to start that Konig 8 cylinder with double the cylinders and displacement?? :)

[F-12]

It had electric start. I watched Marshall one year drive his Caddy down into the water so the jumper cables would reach..........

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

That is one strange looking Alky motor with twin Tillotson HLs on the front and inverted ignition midway on the engine. Is that some Harrison hybrid?

[F-12]

I believe it's a 'Z'

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

The black and white picture appears to picture an A or B Flathead sporting a Vacturi carb?? That would be a first time seen on a Flathead for me! :)

[Tim Chance]

I heard that when Marshall quit, he gave the motor to Danny and he made two 500's from the one 8 cyl motor. I have no personal knowledge of that situation, but that was the common knowledge story going around at the time.

I hope the motor on display now is really the orginal one, as it was a big part of the history of PRO Racing and Konig technology at the time, and since there will never be another it would be great if it has been preserved. That begs another question?...Could there have been more than one? Maybe Danny could put that question to rest as he was supposed to have ended up with the engine.

I heard that the motor was made into two 500's also. And as I recall the person that told it to me was Danny himself.

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

Tim: Just to see that one together sure shows how a talented person, Marshall Grant was. I am in awe of people like him that did the big things and the smaller ones people just don't hear much about too. One thing I don't understand with that engine is why they didn't put a Speedmaster or OMC racing gearcase under it, surely those would have held up better?

With expansion chambers that thing would still make one awful noise, it is too bad one could not put it beside a Quincy Flathead 6 and both with open pipes to see if there is any records to break when it came to decibel noise. Wishful thinking! :)

[Jeff Lytle]

Who is the Driver? This was Stevens Point 74 or 75.

Almost looks like Craig Lawrence to me.

[F-12]

There have been many estimates regarding both these engines over the years. The one I remember most was from Danny Kirts and Marshal Grant. The Konig 8 was capable of in excess of 150 mph if you could hold it on the water. This comment came from Danny after getting out of an F boat that was about 3 feet too short for that engine. The Quincy 6 will be tested in the near future and will, if it stays together, probably approach that mark. It's all in the set up and luck of the stars. More than likely, history in the making................

[Mark Suter]

Bill, when I had the 8-cylinder Konig on display at DePue in 2007, Dan Kirts told me that the motor I have is definitely the same one he owned. He also told me he sold the motor to Joe Michelini when he was through racing it. The motor was purchased by a guy from Michigan when Joe's estate was auctioned off. It went through two more Michigan owners before I acquired it.

Regarding the starting of the motor, Joe Rome told me Marshall did install two Fiat electric starters when the motor was originally built because he felt it would be too hard to rope over. After Marshall gave the motor to Dan Kirts, Dan did try to eliminate the electric starters and rely on roping it over to start it. Dan said he would typically use two people to rope it over... each one with a rope on one of the two rope sheaves. Steve Litzell told me he was the only person that could pull both ropes and start the motor by himself. But it was a beast to rope over so Dan opted to re-install the electric starters.

Regarding the water injection, Dan told me that he was not the one that installed it so I can only conclude that it must have been Joe Michelini (I know it was not any of the subsequent owners). I have since taken the water injection system off as the motor was not raced that way while Marshall and Dan owned it.

[Bill Van Steenwyk]

Mark:

Just so there is no misunderstanding, I am happy that you have confirmation that the 8 cylinder you have is really the orginal one. There is so much history with that engine, that it would be a shame if it was not. I was not in any way closely involved with the motor at the time it was being raced, but did as previously posted see it run the first time in Florida, and consequently raced at Lakeland in the same time frame, driven by Charlie Bailey on the Byers hydro. Wayne has also posted his rememberances of what Charley's comments were on how it drove and handled, so as they say you have some "provenance" on the engine.

As I orginally posted, and then Tim Chance has confirmed, we both understood that Danny Kirts had made two 500's from the one engine. I don't remember now if it was him that told me that, or someone else, but that is my recollection and based on Tim's recent post, his also. The motor could have certainly been put back in the orginal configuration, and as stated, I hope that is the case, as it is a real piece of outboard racing history.

I guess I'm just lucky I am still here and I can still remember some of the things I heard and talked about and saw all those years ago. Congratulations on your "prize", and please understand my comments were not meant in any way to cast doubt on the authenticity of the engine you have displayed.

[Tim Chance]

Mark:

Just so there is no misunderstanding, I am happy that you have confirmation that the 8 cylinder you have is really the orginal one. There is so much history with that engine, that it would be a shame if it was not. I was not in any way closely involved with the motor at the time it was being raced, but did as previously posted see it run the first time in Florida, and consequently raced at Lakeland in the same time frame, driven by Charlie Bailey on the Byers hydro. Wayne has also posted his rememberances of what Charley's comments were on how it drove and handled, so as they say you have some "provenance" on the engine.

As I orginally posted, and then Tim Chance has confirmed, we both understood that Danny Kirts had made two 500's from the one engine. I don't remember now if it was him that told me that, or someone else, but that is my recollection and based on Tim's recent post, his also. The motor could have certainly been put back in the orginal configuration, and as stated, I hope that is the case, as it is a real piece of outboard racing history.

I guess I'm just lucky I am still here and I can still remember some of the things I heard and talked about and saw all those years ago. Congratulations on your "prize", and please understand my comments were not meant in any way to cast doubt on the authenticity of the engine you have displayed.

Right! If Danny can take an F apart and make to C's. He certainly can take those two C's and put them back where they came from. Especially since they were unique with the rotary valve and exhaust on the same side.

[Ronny W.]

Theres a new beast on the block.From what i heard it was made by Steve Litizell dont know if has been ran.It was on display at the worlds in Fl.

[Tomtall]

Ronny -

Thanks for posting the pictures. I had not seen that new 8 cyl. yet but Al Lang had mentioned the following to me in an e-mail not to long ago.


Did you see pictures of Steve Litzell's 8 cyl Konny? When he gets it worked out with boats and props, it should be a screamer. He wants to run it in 1100 runabout. He has run it at Constantine and DePue this year.

[Master Oil Racing Team]

This is the third one. I asked Steve how long it took to build. He said "One month". I told him I was amazed he could do it so quickly what with all the precision work, alignments, rotary valve belt drives, etc. He said he had built two for other people so he had it down now. I can't remember whether or not he had collaboration with the other two he built, and whose original idea it was. He definitely did some good work though.

[David Weaver]

Theres a new beast on the block.From what i heard it was made by Steve Litizell dont know if has been ran.It was on display at the worlds in Fl.

Indeed, this engine has had a couple of shakedown passes on an 1100cc runabout. It ran well out of the box, although I believe that a couple of tweaks may be required still. I do not know if Steve plans to race it further in 1100cc runabout or if it may find its way to the back of a capsule boat.

[F-12]

This engine is basically perfected except a belt change. The belts used between the 2 rotary valves were different at first test and Steve figured out that the weak point was the difference in the belts. After this change you can bet there will be a hi-top Konny making the short time passes. Knowing Steve the way I do, he won't stop until he has broken a few records and won the nats and UIM championships. He's like that you know..............

[Gene East]

I read with interest where Steve Litzell stated he was the only man who could crank the 8 cylinder Konig owned by Marshall Grant.

I also read somewhere that according to legend I was the only man who could crank it.

Truth of the matter is the only time I ever saw that motor was at the Reunion in DePue. I never did crank that engine, but would have loved to try.

Marshall did show some pictures of this motor to Ann Cadle; Karen's mom, and me after a Johnny Cash show at Macomb, IL during the early 70's.

I did get to see Steve's stacked 8 cyl. Konny at Lake Alfred. It is a beautiful piece of work!! Great job Steve!!

However; I must take some exception to this engine being called a beast.

A BEAST IS A 90 CUBIC INCH QUINCY LOOPER!!!

No, I've never cranked one of those either and I don't believe anyone else has.

[Frank Volker]

Gene, I have no doubt that you could crank that 8-cyl Konig even today. Only difference between now and the 70's is that now you would probably need a rope.

The big 90-incher had electric start. We eventually put it on Stan Higgins's Checkmate and we kept the stock clubfoot on it. First trip out, I think there were 4 of us in it and it went from floating peacefully in the water to chine walking about as fast as you could open the carbs. I recall testing it after we put the Speedmaster unit on and there was no way to stop it from chine walking. Way before the movie, "Jaws", all I could think of on those test runs was "we're gonna need a bigger boat".

Frank

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

Seems there can be only one.........per monster engine!

Back in the early 1960s the British Anzani twin block coupled "C" Alky really had only one real qualified tested and true starter according to Tim Chance who then told me the man had passed away about 5 years before I thought what was a "myth" engine back in the late 1960s came back together again here during the winter of 2006-2007. According to Tim the man that started this mythical engine was about 350 pounds of hardened muscle and that is what it took in one qualified man to start it. Other times evidently it took 2 people on two ropes, less successfuly!

Do the men who could have or did start the 8 cylinder Konig with a rope start measure up with that engine double the size of the Anzani for the braun it took one man to start it, the 4 cylinder Anzani twin block coupled "C" never mind the twice larger Konig?

Tim Chance, you know these guys, what say you? LOL! :):)

[Master Oil Racing Team]

Speaking of "Monster" motors...here is a letter Scott Smith sent my Dad. I don't remember the exact date of the Lakeland race where Dieter delivered the 8 cylinder to Marshall, but it would not have been very long after this letter was sent.

I can't remember whether or not I had previously posted this or not Mark, but I thought you might want a copy of this for your exhibit. As far as I know, yours was the only one ever built. Not to say that there are not some circulating in other parts of the world, but if Dieter would have built half of those for people who Scott said had expressed an interest, we would have at least seen them in the pits. My Dad wasn't averse to buying something new and interesting to try out, so I am suspecting Scott might have been doing a little hustling.;):D

[Jeff Lytle]

I wonder if the boat Scott was speaking about was that pic you posted before Wayne. It was a pic of a huge Konig hull that was sitting outside at the Konig factory leaning up against the wall.

[Tim Chance]

Seems there can be only one.........per monster engine!

Back in the early 1960s the British Anzani twin block coupled "C" Alky really had only one real qualified tested and true starter according to Tim Chance who then told me the man had passed away about 5 years before I thought what was a "myth" engine back in the late 1960s came back together again here during the winter of 2006-2007. According to Tim the man that started this mythical engine was about 350 pounds of hardened muscle and that is what it took in one qualified man to start it. Other times evidently it took 2 people on two ropes, less successfuly!

Do the men who could have or did start the 8 cylinder Konig with a rope start measure up with that engine double the size of the Anzani for the braun it took one man to start it, the 4 cylinder Anzani twin block coupled "C" never mind the twice larger Konig?

Tim Chance, you know these guys, what say you? LOL! :):)

As far as Jim Kolosky is concerned, Jim wasn't a superman he was about 5'-8" tall and weighed maybe 190 pounds. He was the ultimate pit man. He was a draftsman as was Dave Berg, and they worked together. Jim started coming to the races with Dave, then after Dave was killed at at a race in Duluth, Minnesota in 1962, Jim started pitting for Dick Zivic and Floyd Harris. Floyd owned the twin Anzani C.

After Dick and Floyd stopped racing, Jim became my pit crew. Rich Krier reminded me just this past summer of a time in Memphis in 1970 when my D Konig "bit" Jim as he was roping it. Off came the sunglasses, back up onto the beach, out came the cigar, back up onto the beach, back went the rope onto the flywheel. That Konig didn't dare not start.

It has been many years since Jim passed away, we had a lot of good times together. I still miss him.

As far as the 8-cylinder Konig is concerned I only remember of a time Marshal started it with a battery. And another time with Danny in the boat and I think Tom Kirts on one rope and Gary Sevison on the other.

And I'm glad that Gene East clarified that he never started the Konig eight as I was going to say that he was out of racing at that time. Plus the fact that the first time he ever started a Konig in his life is when he started mine at the world's last month.

[Bill Van Steenwyk]

I had the immense pleasure to get to know Jim in the early 70's, when he was attending some of the "alky" races here in the midwest as one of Tim Chance's pit crew. Jim was one of a kind, and there are numerous stories about him still told today all these years later. I would like to relate one about him that took place at a race in Springfield, Il., at the old race site there on Lake Springfield called the "Prop Club".

I had just been back in boat racing for three or four years after being out for about 10, and had just gotten a C and D Konig after starting back with the same size engines but of the Quincy Flathead variety. At the time, Harry Pasturczak was coming out with various innovations for the Konigs, "ZAK" pipes, different cut rotary valve disks, etc., and other items to improve the engine, both performance and durability wise. One such item was called the "ZAK AIRBOX". This was a plastic airbox designed to attach to the top and bottom carbs on the engine, and its purpose was to not only improve the airflow to the engine, but provide protection to the carbs in case of water in the turns or roostertails getting in the carbs and putting the fire out. The idea, like most of Harry's ideas was sound, but this one did not work well in actual practice. It did improve the performance of the engine slightly, but insofar as keeping the motor from drowning out with water from another boat in a corner, it lacked a great deal in that purpose. In fact, the water would actually become trapped in the box, and compound the problem of putting the fire out.

I had both my engines equipped with this device, and they were hanging on the motor racks in my trailer, which swung out from the box for easy access.
The motors were quite visible to anyone walking by, especially being equippped with the day glow orange painted pipes and the odd looking air box on the carbs. Jim was walking by the trailer and saw the motors equipped with the air boxes, and did a "double take" as he had never seen anything that looked like that before on an engine. He stopped and looked at them from every angle, top/bottom/sideways but never asked anything about them, so I volunteered that they were an "aerodynamically tuned airbox" designed by Harry Pasturczak, another good man of Polish descent. He continued to look for a while longer, and then only made one comment before walking on to wherever he was going.

Just as I will never forget "Kolosky", I will never forget what he said in reply to my explanation of what he was looking at. He said "I had a girlfriend in high school that had one of those too". That cracked me up then, now and everytime I remember it. I did not find out till just recently that Jim had passed away some years ago. Boat racing lost one of its real characters when that happened.

[Mark Suter]

Wayne, thanks for the pic of the letter. I will most certainly put a copy of that with my documentation on the 8-cylinder Konig. Roger Dykehouse gave me a set of Konig specs from 1969 (the type used when submitting motors for APBA approval) that lists my motor as an "LF" model. That suggests that the motor concept would have been public knowledge for quite a while before Marshall built one. From this document alone, I certainly would have expected more people to be aware of the concept and interested in trying to purchase 8-cylinder motors. But that does beg the question of why it never happened.

[Bill Van Steenwyk]

Mark:

I can only guess about why no more motors were sold of that type than just the one, but certainly I think boat design (or lack thereof) had something to do with it I am sure. Also the problems that Marshall had with the boat/motor combination were fairly well known (I don't think he was trying to keep anything secret in that respect) insofar as the lower unit difficulties/keeping gears in it, very large boat required (for that time) and also there was the issue of the prop revolution direction adding to the handling difficulties, and last but not least the wgt of the motor. Prop wise I remember him telling me he was having problems getting the type props he needed, i.e. very small diameter versus lots of pitch. He said that several times at the first test session at Lake Matte in Fl.

In addition, the folks that would have been most interested (again just my opinion) were competing against it and saw the problems with it mentioned above, plus the starting procedure with the electric starter etc. I have no idea what the cost was or would have been, but I would think at least twice the price of a 500 at the time as there were of course two of the powerheads used plus the special lower unit. Add to this the observations that interested parties must have made when seeing the motor run against other "F's" of the day, (see Wayne's description of the race at Marine Creek Lake in Ft. Worth) and it is fairly easy to understand why the majority would be reluctant to be among the first to try that type of motor. That would have certainly have changed if the motor was finishing and winning races, when run hard all the complete race, turns included.

I may be not thinking of all the reasons, but surely those mentioned would have some bearing on a competitors thinking about the possible purchase of the engine, and then the real job of making it competitive on a typical race course of the day. It surely had the speed, but that alone does not always win you boat races. You have to finish also.

[Tomtall]

Roger Dykehouse gave me a set of Konig specs from 1969 (the type used when submitting motors for APBA approval) that lists my motor as an "LF" model.

Here is what Mark was refering to.;)

[Master Oil Racing Team]

You pretty much nailed it on the head Bill Van. And to add to what you said....the intro to the motor was at Lakeland 1974. As all the PRO racers, as well as many Stock and Mod guys know, Lakeland was the opener for the season. OPC guys also went there for records. As a consequence, there were racers from all over the country there at the first race. This was a tune up session for Marshall and Dieter as well. This motor must have been finalized right before the race, and having been in Dieter's dyno room, I doubt very seriously he fired it up in there. He had been to Lakeland before and knew he could find a place to test. Word quickly got around the outboard community about this motor. This took place during some troubled times and I am sure that also contributed to non commitments from others. But in this class, there were not a large group of teams to begin with, and I doubt there were any truly serious buyers at this time.


When Charlie Bailey took it out and it ran too rich, Dieter grabbed a pair of pliars and pinched the dump tubes. I wish I could recall all that happened during those initial trials. I did take some pics, but I didn't take any notes. Tim had brought our experimental boat "Honcho" down as well and we were busy rigging it up as well as a "B" boat. Ironically, "Honcho" was the boat that the 8 ran the best on. A different boat could probably have been better built, but that's what it ended upon the last I heard.

And Jeff (re 12 cylinder Konig).....I thought about that boat at first, then discounted it. But then I got to thinking about the design and what it would have taken to float that motor. It certainly looked like a boat Scott would discourage anyone from driving, so I'll take a second look. I'll post some other shots of it here for clues.

[Master Oil Racing Team]

Would it be possible for you to crop that section and enlarge it Tom? I have a hard time with the details at that size.

[Bill Van Steenwyk]

Wayne:

I always was told and understood that protein lost from the top of the head migrated to the eyeball, so what was lost in one area made the other stronger. Not true??

[Mark75H]

I'll try to get a more legible version up in a few days

[Master Oil Racing Team]

Thanks Sam...I know we can depend on you.:cool:

As for Bill Van...You don't always understand what you've been told.:rolleyes: If you don't believe me...I think Eileen may back me up.;):D

[Mark75H]

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh194/mark75h/1969Konigspecs.jpg

[Mark Suter]

Given the problems Marshall encountered with the 60 cubic inch LF motor, that undoubtedly discouraged any interest in the 80 cube LX that is listed on the chart.

[Master Oil Racing Team]

I have looked at those spec sheets in passing a hundred times, but never studied them. I pulled out some old NOA rule books Johnny Dortch gave me and now I know where the H, HRA, HRE etc come from. I haven't looked through all of them yet, but it appears the FA, FB etc came from around 1964-65. Thanks Mark & Rog for the lead.

Here are pics of that boat behind Dieter's shop that Jeff was referring to. I took them after Lars Strom got his Volvo-Konig loaded up. I will E mail Peer Krage to see if he knows anything about it. It's hard to imagine the configuration of a 12 cylinder Konig. It looks like the motor well is too narrow, but then again a beefed up tower would have fit. I couldn't imagine that much weight so high though. If this was the boat, then maybe part of the hull design at the rear was for flotation. I have no doubt in my mind that Hans would have driven that monster, but he never mentioned it to me. However, Hans had so many tales and experiences that I doubt that any one person would have heard them all.:D

[Master Oil Racing Team]

Maybe this IS the boat. Just some clues that are making me think that it might be. The boat looks like it has seen racing action, but I can't think this thing could be competitive. It's possible that this was a futuristic, far out design that Dieter came up with just to get the motor tested. Just imagine this. You can't run a 12 cylinder on a conventional proprider. So Dieter builds this long tunnel with a pointed bow, (maybe just to get more weight forward, but with not so much lift). The wide deck and bottom at the rear serve as both an afterplane, lift at the back, flotation and to help keep the boat from rolling over in the turn because of the weight stacked so high on the transom. Anything that worked could be kept, the parts that didn't could be scrapped on the next generation. What made me think of that was the patches on the right side of the boat bottom. When you first drive something like this you have no previous experience with the handling. I think Dieter tested it in the canal, and sometime during the initial trials he ran it up on the rocks in the canal.

All this is just conjecture on my part, but it's fun thinking about what might have led to the development of such a boat.

[JIMKIRTSM-3]

Hello gang. I must tell you that I have really enjoyed reading all of the stuff in this article. It has been great. I spent a lot of time with dad on this motor. It was an animal. Tim has part of his guess right on who roped the beast. My uncle Tom was one of the guys. The other one was me. There wasn't anyone else out there that wanted to try. Anyway, great story. Just thought I could add a little input.

[Master Oil Racing Team]

Jim...thanks for clearing that up. Another thread sometime back said that it was always started with the electric starters. I had this picture in my mind though of two guys simultaneously gritting their teeth and leaning into the rope with their muscles bulging.

[JIMKIRTSM-3]

I know it was thought that it was always started by electric start, but you know my dad. He was always looking for that edge. In this case, he thought that he could get rid of some of the weight by doing away with the electric start, which he did. However, it didn't last long as it was always such a bear to rope and you always needed two tough guys. Eventually we went back to the electric start because it was easier and more dependable to get it fired. It was fun though. We tried a lot of different things to compensate for all of the horsepower. We even had a rear wing on the boat in Hinton, WV trying to dump some air out from under the boat in order to keep it on the water at the speed the thing wanted to run. It always came down to the weak link, the lower unit. When it ran and everything held together, it was nearly unbeatable. However, that didn't happen very often. We lost a many good props off of that thing. If the gears didn't let go, we broke the prop shaft off. It was a good experience working with that motor. To this day, I still wish I would have gotten a ride in it. It would be a heck of a two man runabout motor. Anyway, if I think of anything else, I will try to add it as it comes to me. Now that I am back racing, I get to kick around all of those old stories with people from time to time.

[Jeff Lytle]

Do you have any pics of the old days you could share with us Jim?

[Master Oil Racing Team]

Good stories Jim. Keep them up. I wasn't around any of those courses most of the stuff you talk about happened...only the Eastern, Western Divisionals, and the Nationals. But I knew you guys were always working on it. I am amazed with the little amount of oil in the reservoir that Danny could even make the start with what horsepower he had.

When you mention props Jim, Marshall also had the same problem with that dual rotary valve, 4 carb motor we bought from him. Races were lost because a blade broke. With that beast of a motor you would find a powerhouse on top that was amazingly dependable, but everything below had to stand up. To me the weak link was the lower unit with not enough strength nor lubrication to last under the power. If you had props that would stand up, and a lower unit that could transfer that power for a long enough time without breaking, you may have had a driveshaft twist up. All in all, I think given time and money...all the mechanical failures could have been corrected. The motor itself from what I saw was very reliable.

Thanks for your input Jim....and here is a pic for you.

[Peer Krage]

I have looked at those spec sheets in passing a hundred times, but never studied them. I pulled out some old NOA rule books Johnny Dortch gave me and now I know where the H, HRA, HRE etc come from. I haven't looked through all of them yet, but it appears the FA, FB etc came from around 1964-65. Thanks Mark & Rog for the lead.

Here are pics of that boat behind Dieter's shop that Jeff was referring to. I took them after Lars Strom got his Volvo-Konig loaded up. I will E mail Peer Krage to see if he knows anything about it. It's hard to imagine the configuration of a 12 cylinder Konig. It looks like the motor well is too narrow, but then again a beefed up tower would have fit. I couldn't imagine that much weight so high though. If this was the boat, then maybe part of the hull design at the rear was for flotation. I have no doubt in my mind that Hans would have driven that monster, but he never mentioned it to me. However, Hans had so many tales and experiences that I doubt that any one person would have heard them all.:D

Hallo Wayne,
I think i can help out and stop the discussion about unbelievable 12 Zyl.König
engines.This boat was driven by Ulli Rochel and my father Hans Krage with an
3Zyl.65 Hp König like you see on the picture.The driver in the boat is Ulli.
They won the 6hours of Berlin with it.Later on they cut of the front to lay down and test an 850cc racing-engine on the channel at Dieters place.
Everyone got to have a flip there Ulli,Hans,Dieter,Werner Franke....
When they fliped the boat they need to make a hole to the bottom because the negative pressure,
sucks the boat to the surface of the water and they couldnt get it out.
I hope i helped you out with this information.

[Master Oil Racing Team]

Thanks Peer. The boat has a totally different look in those pictures. I was thinking about you father this morning and that DVD we talked about. I don't want to just throw a bunch of pictures together. I want some kind of theme or "hook" and I haven't quite figured it out yet. I have enough pictures to do a lengthy one and I want to do it right.

[dumperjack]

Theres a new beast on the block.From what i heard it was made by Steve Litizell dont know if has been ran.It was on display at the worlds in Fl.

I have the pipes already, now I look for still another old engine for my collection :rolleyes:

[Peer Krage]

Hallo Guys,
I have one 8Zyl.rotary valve engine for sale in my business.
It belongs to a friend.
And i know also that there is an reed valve engine for sale
from another friend.Both engines are complet with middle section and gearbox.
If you need any information just contact me.

[Mark75H]

This boat was driven by Ulli Rochel and my father Hans Krage with an 3Zyl.65 Hp König like you see on the picture.The driver in the boat is Ulli. They won the 6hours of Berlin with it.

Peer, do you know what year that was?

[dumperjack]

Hallo Guys,
I have one 8Zyl.rotary valve engine for sale in my business.
It belongs to a friend.
And i know also that there is an reed valve engine for sale
from another friend.Both engines are complet with middle section and gearbox.
If you need any information just contact me.

;) you have post office (email)