AOMCI 2007 fall meet

[Tomtall]

The Wolverine Chapter in Michigan pulled out all the stops at Mark Suters meet. Click on the slidshow feature to take you thru the show.

Pictures at -- http://rides.webshots.com/album/561311714jfdOde

[Skoontz]

Was that 4-W one of Jerry Waldman's boats?

[John Schubert T*A*R*T]

Was that 4-W one of Jerry Waldman's boats?

NO! When Jerry raced stock, he used Sid-Craft hydros & runabouts. In his earlier years he drove Speedliner runabouts. The 4-W might have been Dale Kargus' boat.

[Ron Hill]

Dale Kargus?? Vern Kargus's dad??? Has anyone written about Vern Kargus in the Encyclopedia???

[Mark Suter]

When I bought the 4-W boat, I was told that it had been raced by a number of families and that the most recent was the Berghauer family (the other owners were not identified). It was pretty beat up so I had it restored by Dwight Morin of Rapid City, MI. Dwight came up with the color scheme.

[Mark75H]

Thanks for chiming in Mark. I hope you are able to contribute more here on BRF. Your collection is impressive! :)

[Jeff Lytle]

V-E-R-Y Impressive! :eek:

[John Schubert T*A*R*T]

When I bought the 4-W boat, I was told that it had been raced by a number of families and that the most recent was the Berghauer family (the other owners were not identified). It was pretty beat up so I had it restored by Dwight Morin of Rapid City, MI. Dwight came up with the color scheme.

And, since Dale married a Berghauer & raced with them, I believe that adds some credibility to it have been originally raced by Dale.

[Tim Weber]

Vern Kargus married Harold's oldest daughter Jan. Vern raced 9-W. Even though Vern married a Berghauer he was fiercly independant. To my knowledge, they traded very little equipment if it all. Vern almost always ran a Sid. The Sid is still with the family. Vern's two sons, Tommy and Davey were noteable racers too with Tommy winning 2 or 3 titles. Vern's oldest daughter, Kristi is married to Don Allen Jr. Kristi's son Donny is also a former national champ winning CSH most recently at Wakefield.

Vern was the first stocker to win a nationals with a 3 blade prop. Vern really was the pioneer of three blade wheels. He worked with Dennis Wytroski who in my mind is a questionable figure, I think that's being kind. From what I heard, Dennis was a sort of a front man for Tom Pettit of Mercury racing.

At Hinton in 1976 he blew the filed away with an experimantal Anderson hydro and a 3 blade prop. He had a 20H that was phenomonal named the flame. It only came out for nationals and Tommy still has it.

My family has been great friends with the Kargus and Berghauer clan going back to the 50's. There are no nicer people.

Tim

[Mark Suter]

This forum is incredible. It never ceases to amaze me how a picture is able to unfold the history of the subject matter. Thanks for the comments, guys. I now know who raced my Marchetti.

[epugh66]

Mark,

It was nice to meet you and your wife(name?) at the Louisville, TN show. I appreciate that your wife took the time to help with my son, Ryan, so I could set out all my crap. Unfortunately, now I have a Star Wars fanatic on my hands(she bought him a X wing fighter at the garage sale)

If you make it back in the spring, I just may have that Yamato on a boat and I will burn some methanol and castor! If I can dig up enough boats, I just may fire up that '59 A Konig too.

[Mark Suter]

Eric, both Elaine and I enjoyed talking to you and Ryan at the Louisville, TN meet. Sorry that Elaine got Ryan hooked on Starwars toys but at least it wasn't something expensive like outboard racing motors. I thoroughly enjoyed seeing your scrapbook. It sure looked like you had fun with the racing in Europe. Not sure if we will make Louisville in the Spring but you never know. I would enjoy seeing that Yamato run.

[Chris Hellsten]

Eric,

I was at Jesup, Ga a couple weeks ago and saw the famous 250ccH hydro that won 1984national championship on Danny William's trailer. She looked ready to roll! We are all still racing waiting for you to come out of retirement again.

Chris

P.S.-Kids are more expensive than racing. You can stop now and you still have time to recover.....!:D

[epugh66]

Eric,

I was at Jesup, Ga a couple weeks ago and saw the famous 250ccH hydro that won 1984national championship on Danny William's trailer.

I only wish that was the '84 boat(built in '82). The '84 boat went to Bob Saxvik and may have changed hands a few more times since. Danny Williams has the '85 boat, its the one in my avatar. I sold it to Jimmy Aderholt to fund the '89 boat.

Mark,

I'd like to know more about the Koing opposed twin 250 in your collection. Did Dieter build that? Or did someone use two of the 60's 125cc single cylinders on a common crank?

[epugh66]

Chris,
OMG!!!!!!! Is that a dugout in your avatar??? Have you gone completley to th the dark side? ;)

I love kids, got three, no more bedrooms in the house, just may have to stop. Just told Jim McKean yesterday that I hoe to spectate at a race again soon.

[Jeff Lytle]

What's that Eric? What do you expect to do at a race?

:D :D :eek: :eek: :D :D

[Mark Suter]

Eric, as far as I know, the 250 opposed is a Konig-built motor. Ed Thirlby told me it was raced by a guy named Harry Hardin out of Port Huron, MI. It has what appears to be a factory serial number on it (RA7080). The crankcase looks like it has been modified to mount 3 carbs in place of two but otherwise looks like it was designed and manufactured for the 250 application. Ed said it was not a very smooth running motor but it was very competitive. I bought it from a collector in Michigan who got it from Dale Robertson. Dale said it never was very competitive. With these two conflicting stories, I am not sure what the real story is on its performance. The pipes are fixed (not sliders).

[Glenn Coates]

3 cylinder Konig?
I was interested to see the picture of the 3cyl Konig and was wondering if there was any history on this one. Were there many of these engines around? I've only ever come across two of them. One in florida in the early sixties??, and another previously owned by John Dertinger of Tilsonburg, Ontario Canada which was later owned by C.W. Wright of Willowdale, and then John Porter of Odessa.

[Mark Suter]

Glenn, I know very little about this motor but it is the same one that was owned by John Porter, C.W. Wright and John Dertinger. I believe it is a 1956 class "C" motor and its serial number is HE5628. Hopefully, some of the other guys can shed some more light on its history.

[Jeff Lytle]

Evening Mark:

I used to drop by John Porters house at least once a year or so to talk racing and look at the beautiful collection he had. I thought the same thing Glenn did when I first saw the pics........I wonder if it's the same one John had, and then Bill Wright before? I never knew of it's history before that, although I knew John Dertinger as well.

I also see from Paul's post on the other thread on the 8 cyl. Konig, about the FB182 Looper you have, and the owner who ordered it new. Paul and I were speaking for quite awhile last night, and I recalled for him the 1st time I ever saw / heard a Looper run, around 1972..........It looks like it was this same engine if my history is right--I just made the connection tonight. Bill Wanamaker, the 1st owner of the Looper was the owner of the B hydro's that Canadian, Doug Thompson used to race. After Bill and Doug started running Konigs, and making the program win, the Looper was sold to John Porter. Is this where you got it?

Another question for you too: I sold John Porter a B Konig for his collection, funny enough, it was the same Konig that replaced the Looper I was speaking of above, and also once owned by Bill Wanamaker. Previous to that it belonged to Chuck and Lou Simon out of LaSalle Quebec. I had blown the engine up really badly---tossed a retainer, and it grenaded the innards, then sold it to John.

Do you by any chance know who bought it at John's Estate auction if you were there?

4 cylinder B Konig, w/ Nydahl ignition, red painted on the heads, serial number VB6900. If you looked closely at the castings, it had my mane stamped in it too.

The reason I would like to know is, I still have some paperwork and rebuild specs for it that were given to me by the Simon brothers. The new owner might like to have them.

Thanks..........Jeff

[Mark Suter]

Jeff, I know what you mean about the Porter collection... it was amazing. What a shame that it had to be broken up. I was lucky enough to get four motors from that collection: a stock Anzani "A", a Harrison "A", the Konig "C" that was talked about above and, as you surmized, the Quincy "B" Looper. Unfortunately, with my acute case of CRS, I don't remember much about who got the other motors. I remember looking at the VB but passed on it because it went late in the auction and I'd already drained the wallet qenough. I have no recollection of who got it... sorry I can't help.

[Glenn Coates]

3 cyl Konig

Mark, I remember seeing a picture of this engine along with Deiter Konig testing in Florida in a magazine. I'm thinking an issue of the APBA Propeller from about 1956 and no later than 1961. For me it's too many moves with too many boxes so that I can no longer find my copy of the magazine with this picture. My wife thinks that I have shown her the picture so that it may be in the basement yet. About 1975 or so the engine arrived at Bill Wright's as a collection of parts that he had obtained from John Dertinger. Bill assembled the engine as a display engine and sold it to John Porter.

The engine is a 3 cylinder, 30 cu. in. deflector piston engine. In the 1950's Konig built stock outboard racing engines based upon their fishing motors. We raced them here in Canada in both B and C stock. The engines were 2 cylinder and shared common crank, midshaft and lower unit assemblies. They had different piston, cylinder and head assemblies. The B motor was 20 cu. in. while the first C motor was only 25 cu.in., and later enlarged to 27.4 cu. in. .

I think that the 1956 3 cyl C engine that you now have may be a one-off racing engine that Deiter built so that he could have a 30 cu.in. motor. It was built with many common parts from the existing 2 cyl B stock deflector piston engine. This was just prior to Deiter developing the 2 cylinder loop-scavenged FA,FB and FC engines with which he had much sucess.

I think that this 3 cyl C racing motor may be as significant as the Hans Krage 6 cyl motor or the Marshall Grant 8 cylinder motor. All may be one-off attempts by Deiter to to build larger displacement motors using existing components.

[Mark75H]

Glenn, the 3 cylinder Konig C was a regular production C racer, not a one off prototype, 1956 was the year. You are right, it was replaced with the 25 and later 27 ci twins a couple years later

The magazine you are thinking of was BoatSport. You can refresh your memory by going to the www.boatsport.org site and browsing to your heart's content :)

[John Schubert T*A*R*T]

3 cyl Konig

Mark, I remember seeing a picture of this engine along with Deiter Konig testing in Florida in a magazine. I'm thinking an issue of the APBA Propeller from about 1956 and no later than 1961. For me it's too many moves with too many boxes so that I can no longer find my copy of the magazine with this picture. My wife thinks that I have shown her the picture so that it may be in the basement yet. About 1975 or so the engine arrived at Bill Wright's as a collection of parts that he had obtained from John Dertinger. Bill assembled the engine as a display engine and sold it to John Porter.

The engine is a 3 cylinder, 30 cu. in. deflector piston engine. In the 1950's Konig built stock outboard racing engines based upon their fishing motors. We raced them here in Canada in both B and C stock. The engines were 2 cylinder and shared common crank, midshaft and lower unit assemblies. They had different piston, cylinder and head assemblies. The B motor was 20 cu. in. while the first C motor was only 25 cu.in., and later enlarged to 27.4 cu. in. .

I think that the 1956 3 cyl C engine that you now have may be a one-off racing engine that Deiter built so that he could have a 30 cu.in. motor. It was built with many common parts from the existing 2 cyl B stock deflector piston engine. This was just prior to Deiter developing the 2 cylinder loop-scavenged FA,FB and FC engines with which he had much sucess.

I think that this 3 cyl C racing motor may be as significant as the Hans Krage 6 cyl motor or the Marshall Grant 8 cylinder motor. All may be one-off attempts by Deiter to to build larger displacement motors using existing components.

The 3 cylinder alky Konig really didn't do well in the US. The 25 then 27 c.i. Konigs ultimately became 30 c.i. 2 cylinder motors. Bill Hoctor finished 3rd in the nationals at Depue with one. But the interesting story is that the C.C., crank, rods etc. from the 27 c.i. "C" with "B" cylinders & pistons was a good running engine even against the early Quincy Loopers & early 4 cylinder Konig "B". Again Bill Hoctor won the "B" hydro championship in Depur in 1967 with 2 second finishes.

[Mark75H]

I started a new thread with some pictures of another 500cc HRE

http://www.boatracingfacts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5557

[Mark Suter]

Eric, as far as I know, the 250 opposed is a Konig-built motor. Ed Thirlby told me it was raced by a guy named Harry Hardin out of Port Huron, MI. It has what appears to be a factory serial number on it (RA7080). The crankcase looks like it has been modified to mount 3 carbs in place of two but otherwise looks like it was designed and manufactured for the 250 application. Ed said it was not a very smooth running motor but it was very competitive. I bought it from a collector in Michigan who got it from Dale Robertson. Dale said it never was very competitive. With these two conflicting stories, I am not sure what the real story is on its performance. The pipes are fixed (not sliders).

I tracked down Harry Harden (who is from Linden, MI) and got the real story on this motor. Harry built it himself largely from available Konig parts in 1968 or 1969. Although he had ignition problems early on (hence the high speed miss that Ed Thirlby remembers), it was significantly faster than the Konig alternate firing twins at that time. Harry said he won a lot of races with that one-off motor... particularly after he changed coils and fixed the misfire issue. Apparently he got Deiter's attention because Deiter reportedly did follow up and build some opposed twin A motors. Although the serial number looks somewhat like a factory number and implies that it was a 1970 build, the number was "fabricated" by Harry only because NOA required that each motor be numbered.

[Mark75H]

Excellent research Mark. Thanks for going thru the effort to fill us in

[Tomtall]

Another picture of the twin opposed Konig that Mark was describing in the above thread.

[Mark Suter]

Thanks Tom for reposting the pic of the 250 motor. I was always wondering why the cylinders looked so butchered. Harry Harden answered that one by explaining that they were carved out of an alternate-firing 250 cylinder block (as evidenced by the "repairs" on the top of one cylinder and on the bottom of the other). The heads and the crankcase look like they were custom-machined (although the heads conceivably could each be half of an alternate-firing head), and the crankcase was subsequently modified to add the 3rd carburetor and reed block. I did ask Harry what crank he used but he didn't remember. The clamp brackets are modified Mercury aluminum forgings. He had spacers welded in to make them much deeper. The tower and LU were standard Konig items. It is a rather ugly piece but Harry said it really was quite a motor... and an interesting piece of history.