Ron's Parker Post on Hot Boat

[Ron Hill]

Parker 300: 2008
There was a lot of interest in the 2007 Blue Water Resort and Casino 300 and I hope to keep this interest growing.

The ORGANIZERS of this event wanted a fun, safe race, with no boat left behind. They also hoped that people would give racing a try and maybe become the next Al Stoker, Fred Bowden or...

I just wanted to post here, that outboards will have a great chance of winning this event, just becasue they tend to run longer.

I was thinking that maybe people might post boats that people could buy or use for this race. Seems to me there must be a lot of outboard laying around that could run. Both boats that we ran had been sitting around, before we raced them, for 15-20 years...

2008 will see some new motors, as I know Suzuki, Evinrude and Honda have plans for 2008.

My web saite, www.boatracingfacts.com (http://www.boatracingfacts.com/) will be posting the 2008 Rules soon.

If you have any thoughts, ideas or concerns about the rules, post them or on BRF... I have sent my rule suggestions to the rules committee..We always look for sponsors and patrol boats...

AN FYI: Of my suggestions


1. Shorten MOD VP boat 18'6 like the original MOD VP rules were. This would allow Mirage, STV and 19 Daytonas to run.

2. I suggested getting away from the weight rules as weighing the boat is a pain in the ***...and the only ones to have to add weight had raced the year before and had not won....

3. Move Division IV (Outboard V Hulls) to be starting before MOD VP, as the V Hull don't run faster than tunnels, even if Greg Fosters says they do!!! Our OLD SCHOOL V Bottom ran 80 MPH and was more than a handful for Pat Bowman to drive...Our MOD VP went 85, started in Division IV and beat the winning V Bottom by four laps...

Anyway, we've raced the 300 all three times, and won't miss it in 2008 (October 18, 2008). You have time toget a "WHACKER" ready for the race....

I'll help anyone with props....just ask!

With the race being 60 laps, for 2008, I'd like to see lap money paid to the leader...Like the OLD

[Miss BK]

I have one safety suggestion - if you do allow 18' Mod-VP type boats, make absolutely sure the entries aren't the light weight "DRAG RACE" boats - which all look the same on the outside. Ever since Mod VP died, a large number of boats of that type were built for DRAG racing only - some weigh less than 500 pounds, per the original buyers request. They are built extra-light and not built for marathon, roughwater running like you see in Enduro racing.

But another boat that looks identical to that one may weigh 800 pounds, because it was built for pleasure and/or more abusive water.

Usually the boat owner knows what model of race boat he has, but if he's the 3rd or 4th owner, sometimes not. He also may not realize how rough the course may get nor how much punishment these boats will be exposed to during a race of that length. So, keep that in mind with those entries.

[steve sr.]

How about us heavyweights. They stopped trying to weigh the blue brick at 1600lbs. We'll try to get a certified dry weight, but my guess with motor and interior is going to be close to 1750lbs. Thats alot of lbs to give up to the lighter boats plus both our drivers are 2#$^&#@ + pounds. If we run the bow tank full for balist we're talking another 130 or so. So all in all we probably go in the water well over 2000lbs

Change the rules, don't change the rules we'll be back for the 4th Annual Bluewater 300. Even our crew has committed to being there already. Course they are all retired cops with nothing better to do then go racing and drink beer.

The only rules change i'd like to see is "NO TRAILER WINNERS" You run what you brung in the class it fits into but "you must be running at the end of the race" that would make it an enduro and it would give us heavyweights a chance. Hell we're going to slow to break (even though we spent 40 minutes on the trailer with a broke battery). Anybody not running gets a DNF.

[gn7]

retired cops drink beer?:p

[steve sr.]

Thats not all we do. We sit around and tell war stories and try to figure out which one's of us are still alive. But yes we do drink beer (and strawberry hill) gotta build those red blood cells or kill brain cells or what ever.

[Moneypit]

I am still waiting to see any offical listing for lap times. A class break down with lap times could be averaged out and help establish handicaps for 08. Anyone keep that kind of data?.........Also the handicaps should be based on actual course length, not 300 miles, so the final start times should be set after the course is set, and measured precisely...........MP

[fyremanbill]

I agree that it's a pain to weigh the boats, but I think weight is a better method of slowing them down than low prop shaft height. I'd be OK with paying a $10-15 weigh fee and somebody could be hired to work the scale.

[motion]

if we will be racing against stv's in 2008, than i need to get one now, not to be disagreeable with anyone but if thats the case the only way to be competitive will be to have one. weighing the boats is a must, we just need a little better rigging hardware available, i would be willing to supply these pieces. the weights need to be fine tuned a bit as well, i have some thoughts but will reserve them for now. i really enjoy the spirit of this event, and i hope we can all remain objective about the classes, i know the outboard side and i will offer my thoughts, hopefully people on the inboard side will help police their interest.
(consider this)
probably the best example i can quickly think of this, with the current program i could build (and have owned 4) an stv that would be capable of 115mph down the straight aways, that would be on the edge of total destruction at any moment for 3 hours. not only risking my own well being but that of all my competitors, you all know someone that would be willing to drive if not yourself, give that person a helmet and life jacket and suddenly they are invincible. i do not believe this scenario is in the best interest of the program. i personally do not have a problem with the likes of warpath going those speeds for the simple fact that i believe it is a much safer and likely less violent ride. i also believe it is all of our responsiblity to help police this event objectively, never losing sight of the spirit of the event, thanks for listening, when is that rules meeting? joe

[Ted March]

however I believe it is absolutely essential for at least two reasons:

1. To maintain parity within the classes and……more importantly
2. To make certain the sub 500 pound boats are not allowed to run.

The only way to accomplish this is weigh the boats and for safety reasons establish a maximum amount of weight that is allowed to be added. Bolting 200-300 pounds of lead into a 500 pound boat to make weight could be disaster if the boat gets into an accident or flips. It is impossible to predict where that weight is going to end up if the boat comes apart and who it is going to injure.

Mod VP had a minimum weight of 1500 pounds that seemed to work pretty well. It basically insured that fly weight boats would not be allowed to complete and there would be parity in the class.

When we bought the Yellow 3 STV in 1993, we ordered a light boat for dragging. It was delivered at under 500 pounds with complete steering. It can make 1250 fully rigged, ready to race, with a 180 pound driver, lifeline, helmet, prop, 11 gallon aluminum fuel tank and 24 volt trim system. Zero fuel.

Roark built the same boat in 1992 for Mod VP at between 700 and 750 pound to make the 1500 pound Mod VP weight rule. The extra 200/250 pounds were put into the construction of the boat. Not weight added after the boat was built.

When a super light boat gets into an accident it tends to come apart. With 200/300 more pounds built into the construction, this tendency is lessened and the safety of the driver(s) is dramatically increased.

One thing I know. I would never enter the Yellow 3 STV weighing 1250/1300 pounds in the Annual Blue Water Resort Casino 300 and definitely NEVER enter it with 200 to 300 pound of lead bolted in to make a 1500/1600 minimum weight. Thus it will never come apart…..at Parker. (Fully understand the no capsule rule...simply an example)

Seems to me you gotta weight them and you gotta have a minimum weight.

[steve sr.]

I got out of this sport back in the 80's because it just got to expensive to run. I thought this was supposed to be fun and for us poor folk on a limited budget (with the exception of a few). Part of the fun was thinking you had a chance. You let in STV's and light boats that just blows us out of the water. Were stuck in Division 5 with a rig that weighs in at about 2200lbs by nature of the power on the back. The fact that Stoker layed this boat up as a family ski boat not a racer if we're lucky it may do 90mph. Even thats not a for sure.

You guys do what you want, but this will take out alot of us that are in it for fun!!!!!

[fyremanbill]

Joe and Steve, I wouldn't worry about the STV's. They're not the ideal platform for a rough water race, at least not with a novice driver. IMO they're not any faster than the other modern designs at a given weight, and don't respond well to the 1" below the bottom rule.

[steve sr.]

Who me? The last year I raced the 7 hour there were lasers and stv's. I finished 4th over all and 3rd in mod vp right behind Fred Bowden. We were both in light lay up Daytonas. The one thing I can tell you is that if one of those things passes you duck. In that race I think all but one of them blew over and they go really high in the air and come down really hard and with a debris field that is very large. If we're going to let them in how bout mod u boats and on and on and on.

I know its a problem for Ross every year to come up with entrys and the last minute stuff like will we have enough boats, but come on.

[fyremanbill]

Yes, I've "ducked" a few boats, 2 of them were STV's.

[El Hombre]

Joe and Steve, I wouldn't worry about the STV's. They're not the ideal platform for a rough water race, at least not with a novice driver. IMO they're not any faster than the other modern designs at a given weight, and don't respond well to the 1" below the bottom rule.

I disagree I owned a stv with a 200hp merc and with the shaft 1" below the boat could run 88mph with a full tank and 94mph with half a tank.They also ran in the same class as the stokers and dominated the mod vp class so they could handle the water at the enduro no problem.They are faster by design than the modern designs. But one has never been run in the enduro so I think this is a mute point and you can not discriminate a certain boat if it meets the rules it meets the rules and live with it or join them! Also STV are sold as a 19ft boat so one could have ran in Div 5 this year there does not have to be a rule change for them to race as the rules sit!

[motion]

the stv and similar are very fast, i believe the mph #'s , I agree it is not right to outlaw any mfg's offering, however it is important that we establish some type of weight parity. for example, speaking for outboards of course, set the weight limit the same for for all outboard classes. maybe 1500lbs dry, maybe keep the 1100 lb # for someone who has an inline 6 cylinder? that way it is closer to racing heads up with the light weight boat. with respect to the comment about discounting the weight because the two boats that had to add weight because they were light, did not win, all i can say is, what? the only time weight works to your advantage is in a wrestling match, i will always bet on the light boat, thanks, weigh them all, i can help, i also like the idea of paying a fee. joe

[steve sr.]

No it's just another STV going over backwards. I guess I agree, let em run. It just means more trash in the water to dodge. But how about giving us heavy weights a chance by dropping us down a notch or two. I know we're just comming for the fun of it but we'd like a shot something....

[steve sr.]

There is a 19' stv euro ski on boat trader . com I think the guy must subscribe to this web site. He's asking 19 grand and advertising it as a 100mph ski boat with full interior. Strip it down it will probably do 115

[Miss BK]

I disagree I owned a stv with a 200hp merc and with the shaft 1" below the boat could run 88mph with a full tank and 94mph with half a tank.They also ran in the same class as the stokers and dominated the mod vp class so they could handle the water at the enduro no problem.They are faster by design than the modern designs. But one has never been run in the enduro so I think this is a mute point and you can not discriminate a certain boat if it meets the rules it meets the rules and live with it or join them! Also STV are sold as a 19ft boat so one could have ran in Div 5 this year there does not have to be a rule change for them to race as the rules sit!

You may have had one that was built heavy enough to handle the rigors of Enduro and Mod VP style racing. That would be fine. The true Mod VP boats were very good in moderately rough water. (especially the Mirage's <grin>)

But the next guy may have one that was strictly built for drag racing --- meaning each boat came from the same mold, but they will definiately NOT be the same boat.

Even though they were called "light layup", the boats built back during Mod-VP days were actually much stronger/heavier than the boats built for quarter mile drag racing top speed only in recent years. Mod-VP died more than 12 years ago, and after that, those same boats started becoming lighter and lighter due to the trend to switch over to drag racing.

That's my fear --- that some will see these boats and think they are the same as the previous champs of the rough-and-tumble IOGP Mod-VP days, but when they see the differences in how they are laid up, they will see they certainly aren't all the same.

Gotta be careful here...."Enduro races" have always meant you had better run "tough boats", not drag hulls. Make sure only the proper type hulls are being entered. It would be sad to have to say goodbye to a $19,000 boat after it gets all busted up doing what it was never built to do.

[fyremanbill]

It is true that the Mod VP STV's were faster under certain conditions, but rough water wasn't it. Professional drivers like Chris Bush could make it work, but lots of novice types didn't fair so well. I don't know how much better the larger designs will do, but they were legal this year.

[chill]

Keep the weight at 1250-1350 and the prop shaft at least 2” below the bottom. That is about the safest you can make it.
As for the boat length, bring on the 18’ 17’ or even a 12’ boat as long as the weight is 1250-1350 dry. I would really enjoy watching a novice driver in a 17' boat up river near the first turn. I got my Baker on it’s side more then once.:eek: It gets rough and it is only going to get rougher.

[motion]

trust me i am all for lighter weight stuff, thats what i have, but to be objective, show me a true recreational boat that weighs 1250-1350 lbs, rigged dry. more like 1500-1800. my boat weighs light but again we are all preaching fairness and parity, on a side note you will not be able to convince me that your poor old baker is the old family ski boat, i have seen it run, it is a bad *** mod vp. joe

[JSR Motorsports]

What we all need to remember , If they don't do something to try to keep the speed reasonable , We could be only one bad crash away from no enduro at all. Target speed for mod VP type boats should be 90 MPH. Only my opinion. Also Chads " Baker" was my ski boat before I sold it to Ron in July 2005.

[motion]

i stand corrected, that is one bad *** ski boat. joe

[vishus]

bad *** for sure!

Four reasons a heavy old ski boat runs so fast.

1. A great DRIVER.
2. SETUP. Ron and Chad have spent some TIME and EFFORT to set the Baker to RUN. I think if those two wanted to run a Bayliner with a Force it would be a winner.
3. GREAT PROP(HILL). The one thing that connects to the water and makes it go!
4. S3000 power head. Mercury's baddest kick *** motor that they build. 325+ prop shaft HP

just my 2 cents...

sid

[JSR Motorsports]

Baker Boats built that boat in late 82 for the Havasu Classic for my dad and brother. The bottom was built quite a bit heavier than most mod VPs at the time, The deck is lighter than the average ski boat. We last raced it sometime in 88 ,It sat in the back corner of my yard till 98 when I turned it into a ski boat. It's way cool to see it race again!!

[motion]

i take it back, that is one bad *** mod vp. thats a cool story, thanks, joe

[Miss BK]

Target speed for mod VP type boats should be 90 MPH.

Most of the boats running the Mod-VP class of the late 80's and early 90's were actually running at speeds of not much more than 90-95mph. At those speeds, they already saw a need for capsules and Stoker was one of the first to install one. Everyone followed suit - even though they were probably not even reaching 100mph yet. But, as those speeds had increased, it had become too risky not to employ a capsule. We should revisit those lessons we learned from the past.

[chill]

I talked to Al at Parker. He told me when he quit that he promised himself if he ever raced again it would be in a capsule. I myself get a little puckered running without a capsule at any speed over 70.
The thing about the Enduro, you are racing against yourself, and don’t find the need to push yourself harder to get around other boats. One straightaway at a time as my dad would say.
Keeping the boats at around 95 or below is a must. I ran Div III this year at 90-91 MPH, I could have ran to DIV V this year by changing the gearcase and raising the motor 2”. But I did not want to do 110 MPH without a capsule, even with 21 years of racing experience.

[racer55]

The Parker 300 is meant to be a fun race and needs to be safe.

The old MODVP went from no weight restriction to 1450 (if memory is correct) with several weights adjustments along the way, some of those adjustments were to allow for capsules, these weights included driver as the boat was removed from the water, at 1350 for div5 dry they are heavier than the last modvp rules, although no capsule. As Val said we dont want sub 500 pound drag boats trying to run this race they will most likely break and could thus cause an accident.

When we went to capsules starting in 1986 there was no height restriction but you could not run a bottom pick up lower unit so the shaft was about even, these were dialed in race boats but had a lot less power then than what is now available as modvp had gone to basic stock power heads, although Vals memory to speed is a little off. The first race I ran with a capsule was Havasu 1986 top speed was a little over a 100. I feel capsules were needed then because the class was so competitive with large turn outs most every one was driving at the extreme limit of the equipment and the drivers ability, the Parker 300 is different in this respect.

I feel keeping the weights and engine heights as they were this past year would be fine, if the stagger was modified a little so those starting in the faster divisions would not have to run on the edge it would be a safe race, maybe another idea would be if one desires to run in the faster divisions they must have proof of seat time/ability etc, I know its a fun race but 90 plus with no experience is looking for disaster when you add in all the other boats.

I have to say one thing and that is even though we had trouble and Did not finish it sure was fun to be back racing, for which I need to thank Fred Bowden.

[Miss BK]

Thanks Al. Brad told me the same thing earlier tonight - that I was a little bit off on my recollection of speeds (not unusual for me at my age ;) ). But remember, back in the 1980's, my exposure to Mod VP racing was helping a guy with a family-style Avenger/full interior. I can remember him telling me that his top speed was a little over 80. The boat still had the steering wheel on the right hand side... :) (his wife wouldn't let him change it for fear of "messing it up") That year he ran Havasu must have been one wild ride...lol



Oh...and we didn't win, but we sure had fun. In fact....if I remember correctly, that may have been the year you ran with your jaw wired shut Al....79 or 80? I think you won.

[motion]

two points. first, the weights are not correct for the recreational boats, they favor lighter weight enduro race boats. al , you and i both know what a boat would weigh if you built it to run this race vs one you would sale to joe blow at the la boat show. the idea of this event is to promote interest which means: used, affordable, normally available, equipment, not ex race boats. remember i am just trying to be objective, that is all of our responsiblity. second, i do not understand the concept of requiring the slower classes to run balls out to stay ahead, all the while attempting to close the time spread so the faster boats can slow down not having to work so hard, maybe we should just call it a fun run? if you do not want to go faster choose a lower division. period. finally, us outboard guys need to be careful to not beat up on eachother or the inboarders are going to beat us all. remember the red v drive in div 2 , maybe #84 ?? he was faster than all of us in div 1-4, if he does not break he wins by 10 laps. maybe we should allow time for that too? thanks, joe

[racer55]

Val, Ran with the broken jaw in 1978 and yes we did win. It was so rough that year the witchcraft we were running was all busted up after the first day and we spent until about 3 am repairing it to run the second day. Tell Brad I said hi.

[racer55]

Hey Joe, I agree a standard lay up ski boat weighs about 825 and a boat like say Mr Smiths is 640 sure we have built even lighter ones but they were sprint race boats. A lot of the extra weight comes from all the interior, carpet,2 fuel tanks,jack plates etc. The boat we ran was an ex Havasu boat and we had to add weight to meet the minimum but it was not a lot. You make a good point about how hard the equipment is run to either keep the stagger or to make up the stagger, I know we were turning a lot more rpm than I felt comfortable with, heck the tack did not go high enough. The green /yellow 20 that ran div5 is a ski race boat from 1987 it was 20 pounds over weight so I think the weight is ok as it allows for boats that are used for other racing. I do feel weight limits need to remain, most of the outboards used my slings. Maybe the divisions need to be realigned. The thing we need to remember is it needs to stay safe and yes promote racing but if we eliminate ex enduro type boats we hurt the event.

[motion]

i do not want to eliminate ex enduro boats, i want to promote them, however i still want to give the regular guy a fighting chance to compete, that why i am speaking up about weights. not everyone has had the chance to observe the large range of similar boats weights. thanks, joe

[chill]

Al, I remember my dad telling me that story. Didn’t you have a pair of wire cutters with you? Incase you or someone else need to cut the wires holding your jaw together.

[racer55]

One thing that might also be a consideration is that all outboard boats have the same minimum weight and just classify by engine size and bottom type, that way the team that has a standard type boat but a smaller engine still has a chance if the divsions are layed out correctly. I know we could build a really light boat, run a smaller engine and still go reasonably fast, problem with this is a boat that light is back to a drag type that would be disposable if run in an enduro such as Parker.

I also think with all the new green engines we need to address where they might fit in.

Engines could be classified by original manufacturers rating and run on fuel they were advertized to run on or at least if the factory said 87 octane they have to stay on pump 92 even if modified no mater what div they fit, another words a 260 merc is stated to run on 92 then they would have to stay there even if they have more compression, if its a drag then 110 is ok but they fit a faster div. Just an idea.

Yeah Chad but they fell out of the life jacket and ended up in the back of the boat, no way they could have cut it open as it took the doctor 20 minutes to get all the wires out.

[motion]

racing with your mouth wired? you guys are crazy, i must be a puss, i would be on the couch with my mouth wired, not racing a boat. ha ha , anyways, i do not think the rules are far off now just some small details. if you throw out boat 555, and 48, which both ran a perfect basically trouble free race, the next finisher in div 1 was like 9th or 10th? if al has a perfect day he passes everyone and wins, that could be said for all classes. in short, lets not all get exicited and get carried away, the inboards are fast and they are quietly going to kick the outboards butts. thanks, joe

[647and918]

We're going to try to make the brick run faster, but as heavy as it is there is only so much we're going to be able to do... I'd like to see additional rule changes based on weight that would let me drop down to a class where I have a chance to be more competitive (weight ranges perhaps?)... I'd be willing to bet I gave up 400-500 lbs or more to the other Division V boats, and that was before my large behind even plopped down in the seat! The only reason we took third in Division V this year is that we broke substantially LESS than the boats behind us... If we had run perfectly (only out of the water for the two 10 minute pit stops and hadn't lost the extra time we did lose this year) we still probably wouldn't have cracked the top 10 overall or done any better in our division...

Let's face it, my primary goal is to have a great time and still be able to go skiing/tubing the next day like we did this year... I don't want to have to strip this thing down too much or hope everyone else breaks to try to be more competitive, and to be honest I'm not sure it would help all that much anyway! :rolleyes:

[fyremanbill]

Hey Al, nice to see you here on BRF.
I agree that the speeds need to remain below 100 for the Mod VP boats, but would rather see the weight increased SLIGHTLY instead of lowering the prop shaft. My experience is that our boat becomes nearly uncontrolable with the prop 2" below the pad. 1" below was OK, but still well short of optimum. If some people feel they have trouble making competitive weight, I'm OK with increasing it 50 or 100lbs, and would rather increase it 200lbs than see the prop shaft back to 2" below.

[Ron Hill]

Did Racer55 ever make a "STAND" on transom heights??? The reason I ask, I still favor 2" for ALL OUTBOARD GEARCASES ON MOD VP BOTTOMS...

I was wondering what Al Stoker thought???

ADD AL STOKER: I've seen Al a dozen or more times since he retired from MOD VP Racing.............Parker 2007 was the first time I SAW THE AL STOKER THAT I KNEW AND LOVED....GLad you were back in the "SEAT"......Looking forward to seeing AL STOKER driving an EVINRUDE E-TEC in 2008.....

[racer55]

Thanks for the kind remarks Ron. It felt really good to be back racing.

I personally think 1 inch is good as with certain unit/boat combinations handleing starts to become a problem. I would rather see 50 pounds added to the weight but also feel a maximum amount of added weight should be considered.

[Yodaddy]

You may have had one that was built heavy enough to handle the rigors of Enduro and Mod VP style racing. That would be fine. The true Mod VP boats were very good in moderately rough water. (especially the Mirage's <grin>)

But the next guy may have one that was strictly built for drag racing --- meaning each boat came from the same mold, but they will definiately NOT be the same boat.

Even though they were called "light layup", the boats built back during Mod-VP days were actually much stronger/heavier than the boats built for quarter mile drag racing top speed only in recent years. Mod-VP died more than 12 years ago, and after that, those same boats started becoming lighter and lighter due to the trend to switch over to drag racing.

That's my fear --- that some will see these boats and think they are the same as the previous champs of the rough-and-tumble IOGP Mod-VP days, but when they see the differences in how they are laid up, they will see they certainly aren't all the same.

Gotta be careful here...."Enduro races" have always meant you had better run "tough boats", not drag hulls. Make sure only the proper type hulls are being entered. It would be sad to have to say goodbye to a $19,000 boat after it gets all busted up doing what it was never built to do.

I have a Mirage that was built for and raced mod vp. This boat handles rough water like it's not even there and turns on a dime given the left sponson alterations. Also very quick compared to the STV pro comp I had. Alas, I have had back surgery and could not race if I wanted to. :eek:

[bowman]

Need a driver? We have plenty of those.

[MAXIMUS]

I have a Mirage that was built for and raced mod vp. This boat handles rough water like it's not even there and turns on a dime given the left sponson alterations. Also very quick compared to the STV pro comp I had. Alas, I have had back surgery and could not race if I wanted to. :eek:

Yea... I had a corn removed from my pinky toe & might not make it as well...:rolleyes: