?? About Wings.

[tthibodaux]

Ok, I know this will sound off the wall and maybe just dumb but here goes. Any of you guys who read the crap I post get the idea that I've been to a race or 2 in my life. Sometimes things are just interesting to you and you enjoy the history behind them but in reality you have no clue. Thats the case with the WINGS. I'll delete this after someone helps me out but first I have a couple questions that I have yet to find the answers to.

First and most important, What the heck is the passenger side for?

Next, what kind of speeds did they run?

I know, I know but I'm serious so stop laughing at me!:rolleyes: I've only ever seen a couple different pictures of 3 or 4 of these boats so was there a lot of them in their day or are the couple of them I've seen pics of about all there was?

Last question, did they have there own class or did they run in some type of multiple boat/engine combo class?

Sometimes you can only pretend to know about something interesting for so long and then ask someone so there, I've asked the questions and now I feel better!

Thanks guys and gal's, I look forward to your responses!

Sorry Val, I had to use this picture to make sure everyone knew what I was talking about!

[largecar91]

The Wings were ran in the twin engine classes that were popular in the 60's to early 70's. In racing, I personally have never seen a passenger aboard. Speeds were over 100, with the records in the upper teens. When up and running right, these boats ran completely out of the water. The motors were normally trimmed under and the ride additude is controlled by an aileron. They were and still are awesome boats! I think the production numbers are about 40 18 footers and around 20 20 footers.

[Trident]

They ran two up in some early Marathons, like the 1961 Winnebagoland. That was the last year for that race and they ran Stock Utlilities on the usual course, and ran OPC (Outboard Pleasure Craft, then) from Fondy to Oshkosh checkpoint to Neenah turnaround, and back.

This was the original wood Wing with a pair of Merc 800's with speedmasters which ran in the unlimited class. It won going away, but broke the boat on the rough water. Don't recall for sure, but I think two people were required per boat in all classes.

See pix and text, p. 138 & 139, in "A Century of Outboard Racing"

We ran two guys, in the smaller classes. (Another Switzer, an older Shooting Star, won in our class). Guess a Switzer was the boat to have...

Oh, well, it was fun anyway... And really neat to see that Wing run. Power Cats and such were just flat outrun.

Jerry Wienandt

[Mark75H]

Merc did not destroy the plans for the Switzer (Hydrocat) Wings. Actually there were no plans, the Switzer brothers built boats by the seat of their pants.

What was destroyed was the molds to build them, by accident in a fire. By the time of the fire, the boats had been obsoleted by newer smaller lighter tunnel hulls so the mold were not rebuilt after the fire.

The quoted speeds were possible, but with the heavy load of fuel they could carry, probably not attained very often.

The original OPC rules (from the late 1950's when OPC started in NOA and widlcat) required all OPC boats to have built in seating for 2, but most races did not require a passenger.

Single engine boats as the top classes started just about the time you came around, Tim. Before that, the top classes were multi engine ... mostly dual engine, but some with more ... up to 5 in one case (disregarding the 6 engine offshore boats).

[cyka]

opps my bad thamks for correcting me on that. this site said ''Mercury (Kiekhaefer) owned the rights to all 40 18 foot Switzer Wings produced.
He did, in fact, have them in a warehouse....... but that cache is long gone.
Back then after 2-3 years Mercury basically wrote off and destroyed all
hulls in their possession...from hydros to Offshore hulls. The exceptions were
those that Merc employees and friends were able to get out the back
door...or buy outright. These 18 footers that are appearing here
and there....including Gene Lanham's, John Sherlock's, and a few
others are probably from that stash.''


the site is http://www.powercatboat.com/Switzer/wing.html

[tthibodaux]

There were some copies as well. Dutchman and DeSilva. The Dutchman Wings are almost identical to the Switzers, but there was never anything like the DeSilvas.

Actually one DeSilva Wing should be called the DeSilva/Hill WingDoes that mean Ron had something to do with it?

[cyka]

:D your so smart I give you a A+ Mark. :p do any of them still race anywhere.

[Bunker Hill]

My understanding is that the Hills. Ron and Russ Sr. took delivery of the Desilva wing unfinished. Ron and my grandfather finished the wing with a few minor design mods and the rest is history! It was the first outboard powered boat to lead The Parker 9 Hour Enduro!! all was well until the counter rotating engine broke a crank! this problem plagued OMC 115 xs power untill the advent of the flex flywheel! I am sure that Sam can elaborate.

Sam, didn't the Switzers have a stirrup of sorts where the driver used his foot to control the wing angle and didn't a driver or two become pretty injured due to this apparatus?

[Mark75H]

Sam, didn't the Switzers have a stirrup of sorts where the driver used his foot to control the wing angle and didn't a driver or two become pretty injured due to this apparatus?

If you've ever been in a crash, you know it is hard to tell exactly what happened

[tthibodaux]

Any idea about how many wings there were back then? I mean was it a good full class or just a boat or two showed up from time to time at a race over a # of years?

[Master Oil Racing Team]

It wasn't a class of its own such as the trihulls Tim. But yeah, when there was a big race, there were quite a few running....and winning. If you could ever get your hands on some Powerboat Magazines from around the mid sixties to 1970 or so you would see a lot of pics of them racing.

Pete DeLackner told me of the time he was going down the highway with a wing in tow that he was taking to his place for fiberglass work and someone in a car pulled alongside him. The other person signaled Pete to roll down his window, which he did. Then the guy asked "Is that the Bat Boat?" Rather than try to explain, Pete just replied "Yeah."

[Ted March]

That's exactly what happened to Ernie Threlkeld in Norristown, PA when he blew his wing over on a kilo run.

There was a stirrup that the driver used to control the flap. In Ernie’s case he wore a boot on his stirrup foot that he jammed into the stirrup. The boot was to keep his foot from inadvertently coming out.

I think it was the spring of 1968. Kilos were being run in Norristown, PA. This was before power trim and they ran a fixed tilt pin setting. Normal tilt pin setting was the second hole. Tucked under to pop the tail. On his first two runs Ernie had been in the 97/98 range. He was running OMC factory V4's. The people from OMC, Jack Leek and Paul Kalb were not willing to settle for anything less than 100. They figured the way to get there was to tilt the motors out one hole to the third pin hole. While the motors were being tilited out, Ernie stated to me that he didn't like what they were doing. I told him if you don't like it, don't run it. He ran it. The wing didn’t like flying the nose and did a perfect 270. Went in nose first. Ernie’s foot got stuck in the stirrup and horribly mangled his leg when the boat tried to eject him. He has a rod in his leg after I think, several surgeries and alot of rehab over a long period of time. Ernie’s son is on BRF. I spoke with him a while ago and he says Ernie is doing well.

As an aside. Ernie was a high school teacher and band director. He was also the director of the marching band. The first words out his mouth when I got to him after they pulled him out were ‘Who’s going to have any use for a one legged band director?”

[Miss BK]

I was around for many of the great west coast enduros: Parker, Havasu, Elsinore 500 etc, where the switzers were plentiful. Although young, I was pretty savvy I don't remember any Switzes with triple engines. "Trips" I do remember trips, Merten's, Pruitt's and Ramos' Joneses and some powercats, I believe I even saw a power cay with quad motors?.
Sam, weren't the wings' speeds limited by their very design? Look at the enclosed cockpit boat 7000, the points of the speedmasters are out of the water!! If the boats went too fast, wouldn't they "Fly" too high to keep the props in the water?/

Bunker

Bunker
Look at the first picture (T-19) this is a picture (color slide) my brother took at the 1970 Havasu Classic. To make this image, I put the slide in a viewer, then used your uncles' digital cam to snap a picture.

Back to the brown Wing in the pic above --- notice there are 3 motors. According to the race program, the boat was owned by Ed Stewart of Calif.

Val

[Bunker Hill]

Val,
I noticed the third engine in the photo, I don't recall ever seeing a triple switzer, obviously they existed!! I saw a post somewhere, written by Bobby Switzer, claiming the triple gained 8 mph after the center motor was removed! Bobby attributed this to "Aero dynamics being better than raw horsepower"

Bunker

[Rick Connolly]

There were two 20's that were rigged with triples. Kenny Kitson's silver one that was rigged w/triples originially from Switzer. The other one was yellow 20 in the picture on the previous page. The yellow 20 came in second outboard third overall in Parker 1969. Both wings did have working ailerons. Some top end speed was lost, but the acceration and turning ability was better. Yes, they did fly with triples.

When the fiberglass 18's first came out Mercury did not own the rights to them. A few wings got into the hands of brand X, so Mercury jumped in and bought the molds and rights. The first 18's did not have working ailerons, too heavy and did not run well.

I have heard 40 18's were built, but seems like less than 10 survived. I don't think anyone really knows for sure how many were built.

[Mark75H]

I am pretty sure the numbers from the Switzers are accurate

[Judi Cable]

Dear Members- In the video Parker 1975 Pre-race Testing,there is some footage of Bobby Massey's # 140 dual Mercury Wing up & running plus in the pits. We at GoSee.TV/boatracing are currently in production of videos of Havasu 1969-'70;'71 where you will see lots of wings, including De Silvas hauling the mail! We need your help if anyone out there has any audio of stackers on VHS- Beta, etc. to help us with authentic sound for videos. Thanks Mark Benson- Producer E-mail mrbenson55@gmail.com

[Rick Connolly]

I have not had any luck finding it....but the 1967 Wide World of Sports coverage of Salton Sea Races used Jan Schoonover's red Mercury wing with stackers for background racing noise/music. It was last seen on TV sometime in the 90's. This same wing later became one of Bob Massey's 140 wing.

[Rick Connolly]

I am pretty sure the numbers from the Switzers are accurate


I respecfully disagree with the 18 footer count. I don't have a hard number but feel the count of 40 built is off. The two I have both built in 1966 are S/N 13 and 16.

[largecar91]

Do you think there is more or less 18's.

[Rick Connolly]

Less....;)

[Mark75H]

Why do you think the Swtizer brothers don't know how many boats they made?

[Rick Connolly]

When I talked to Bob he indicated he wasn't totally sure of the exact count. I think Bob was roughly/figuratively quoted some place and it became gospel. Remember as a small business owner your trying to crank stuff out the door....let a lone remember what you built 40 + years ago. I have a small fiberglass shop and blow stuff out of molds all day long. A lot of stuff I have a rough idea about, but unless I kept records I wouldn't know for sure.

Anyway I just think it was less than 40. I could be wrong just telling you what I think. Just like rear ends everybody has one and a opinion.....

[Mark75H]

It is quite possible. Some people have remarkable memories and others can't remember what they had for breakfast. Most of us fall somewhere in between, I have no clue where those guys fit in.

So you think there may have been as few as 50 or 55 Wings total?

I am not certain the number of wooden Wings is accurate

[T2x]

It is quite possible. Some people have remarkable memories and others can't remember what they had for breakfast. Most of us fall somewhere in between, I have no clue where those guys fit in.

So you think there may have been as few as 50 or 55 Wings total?

I am not certain the number of wooden Wings is accurate

Based only on pictures that I have seen I estimate the number of Wood wings at 5 (I may be forgetting one). 1. The original 2. Miss Bonadettes, 3. the ugly "V" wing, 4. Miss Skyway, 5. the "Gulfwind Marine" hull which I believe is the boat "built especially for Carl K." referred to by Dave Switzer in Ron Poli's article...and easily the most attractive looking version. That final hull was destroyed (per Dave Craig when we spoke last year at the Old Timer's reunion) when Carl ordered Dave to take it up to max speed at the Lake and turn it as hard and fast as he could resulting in a demolishing barrel roll. The purpose of this, apparently, was to see if the wing design could turn anywhere near as well as the brand new tunnel hulls coming over from Europe.

In addition I personally saw two more "mystery" wooden wings..... 1. The "Miss Subway" owned by a guy out of Chicago who apparently had a bone to pick with the Switzer brothers and made an uncompetitive copy painted red with gold tinted canopies..and 2. An all white wooden wing with no cowlings forward of the engines (completely flat deck) and a cockpit in the center. It was reported to be the "Miss Skyway" with extensive modifications . Odell Lewis drove this boat(The Miss Skyway was not at the race) at the '66 Orange Bowl Regatta for only a few laps before Hank Bowman's death. The race was postponed a day and Carl pulled all of the Mercury Factory entries out of the race in respect for Hank. I never saw that white hull again nor did the "Skyway" ever race again to my knowledge. I will bring this topic up with Dave and Odell at the O.F.F. meeting in October and try to figure it out for once and for all. Perhaps Steve Sirois and Richie Powers can help as they will be there as well.
Bottom line I think there were 5 Switzers and one "Subway" copy.

As far as the glass 18's. I went to Fond Du Lac and Oshkosh in the mid 60's and saw the ware house. There were about a dozen 18's inside...... If you look at all of the 18's that actually raced, I would have to say that Rick Connolly is probably correct..... 40 18' wings seems to be a very high number especially given how few of them are still around versus the 20 footer which was , in fact, less common at the races. My revised guess is there were probably 45 wings made in total. 5 Wood, 20 18's and 20 20' hulls....(approximately)

T2x

[Skoontz]

It is quite possible. Some people have remarkable memories and others can't remember what they had for breakfast. Most of us fall somewhere in between, I have no clue where those guys fit in.

So you think there may have been as few as 50 or 55 Wings total?

I am not certain the number of wooden Wings is accurate



Something to add about the Switzers, Bobby in particular. He could sell an eskimo ice cubes. A conversation he was having with someone about one of his boats when asked about the engine on the back....

Oh sure this engine is 140HP and you really don't need any more than that. It used Holley-Webber carburetors and is very efficient. H/W carbs were sold for desert applications on VW motors, and not for 140HP Mercs. I remember that as if it were yesterday, Bobby was smooth as smooth could be. He was usually stretching his stats ( nothing personal there, it is who he is) and always the Switzer salesman. David was the quiet, reserved kind of guy who is sharp as a tack. Russ Hill reminds me very much of David, not in appearance, David was a small guy and Russ could be a retired pro basketball player.

Taking an educated guess, knowing the Switzers, I'm betting the boat count
is closer to what Rick has posted.

[Ron Hill]

I've been reading here....I talk to Rick now and then...In fact I found him one of his wings...BUT Sam Cullis AIN'T never been one to say something without facts to back it up...

In the EARLY days....Mercury tested and tested and Carl spent money with Switzer. Part of the reason Carl "LOST" Mercury was spending "TOO MUCH" on R and D and racing...As far as 18 footers....I know OMC tried like hell to replace the T40 that Bobby Massey had and that is why they ended up "BORROWING" Ernie's 69 boat for Parker...

The Switzers were talking a new boat then, but the new boat didn't come out until about 1970...

Kitson, Mertens, Schoonover....Ernie...I'd be inclined to think less that 20 were 18 foot glass winges built..

[Rick Connolly]

It is quite possible. Some people have remarkable memories and others can't remember what they had for breakfast. Most of us fall somewhere in between, I have no clue where those guys fit in.

So you think there may have been as few as 50 or 55 Wings total?

I am not certain the number of wooden Wings is accurate



Something to add about the Switzers, Bobby in particular. He could sell an eskimo ice cubes. A conversation he was having with someone about one of his boats when asked about the engine on the back....

Oh sure this engine is 140HP and you really don't need any more than that. It used Holley-Webber carburetors and is very efficient. H/W carbs were sold for desert applications on VW motors, and not for 140HP Mercs. I remember that as if it were yesterday, Bobby was smooth as smooth could be. He was usually stretching his stats ( nothing personal there, it is who he is) and always the Switzer salesman. David was the quiet, reserved kind of guy who is sharp as a tack. Russ Hill reminds me very much of David, not in appearance, David was a small guy and Russ could be a retired pro basketball player.

Taking an educated guess, knowing the Switzers, I'm betting the boat count
is closer to what Rick has posted.

Good story.....:):) Got to do what it takes to sell product......yup this baby will do 160 MPH no problem with a VW motor...

I agree with Rich from little I can piece together there appears to be 5~6 wood Switzer wings made. That is the rough number the Switzers had said as well. I keep hoping one might have survived....but I don't think that is the case. Heard one rumor on was sitting in a museum not on display back east....but that is a reach.

A few more 20's seem to have survied than 18's. I think paritally that was due to the fact they were raced hard, wrecked, soon became out dated and Mercury is reported to have destroyed some in their fleet. One was the Miss Skyway.

In the real world of things it doesn't really matter....fun to speculate. I backed in to trying to figure out what might still be out there. There are still a few more to be found I'm sure.

[Ron Hill]

My understanding is that the Hills. Ron and Russ Sr. took delivery of the Desilva wing unfinished. Ron and my grandfather finished the wing with a few minor design mods and the rest is history! It was the first outboard powered boat to lead The Parker 9 Hour Enduro!! all was well until the counter rotating engine broke a crank! this problem plagued OMC 115 xs power until the advent of the flex flywheel! I am sure that Sam can elaborate.

Sam, didn't the Switzers have a stirrup of sorts where the driver used his foot to control the wing angle and didn't a driver or two become pretty injured due to this apparatus?


BUNKER:

The real story on the second DeSilva Wing was that Mac McCune had given DeSilva a grand deposit to build a wing...Jack Leek flew out from Waukegan and Mac flew from Denver and we all met at DeSilva. The "Wing" was just that a WING...Mac and Leek looked at it and DECLARED IT NO GOOD....and basically left DeSilva's shop saying they could keep the $1,000 DEPOSIT.

Grandpa Hill (My dad) wasn't one to listen to Jack Leek, considering some 15 years earlier, Jack Leek was writing him letters asking him how to "HOP UP" motors...He also liked "The Kids" (Bill and Ralph DeSilva), so he asked Ralph what they wanted for the boat...as is? They said, "1,000 would make us happy."

Well, we had the 18" DeSilva runabout that Fred Miller had blow the bottom out of at Parker, I had helped repair the boat at DeSilva's and raced it in COBRA, but I'd sold it for $1,000 and kept the trailer....and the motors...

We went home and got the trailer, Jimbo and his dad happened to be at the house picking up one of Jimbo's motors...Jimbo's dad said, "He'd go half on the DeSilva...and wrote my dad a check for $500 on the spot...

We went back to DeSilva's and picked up the boat and paid them $1,000.

Rod Zapf had just left the Navy to fly for TWA and had time to burn. We were hanging out and such, he told the OLD MAN he'd help...Rod worked with my dad for about 30 days straight. They built cowlings both front and rear, my dad painted the red and ROD painted every black and white check....Though it seems maybe Phil Nichols may have given us advice on the checkers...

I told Leek we had the boat "Totally Tits" and I needed some motors for Parker...I had added aluminum angles for air traps on the runners and sponsons...(Like the Berghauers had on their Sid Crafts). We tested the boat on a rainy day at Elsinore with the two engine (89.9 Inchers) off the 18 foot DeSilva...I saw 85 on your DAD's Keller......as it only went to 85 but it wrapped around to where I felt it was going over 90 MPH...(Nobody went 90 with two 89.9 inchers)...

We headed to Parker, where Leek gave us two new engines... I remember clearly, warming them up and slowly heading up to the dam and I made a wide "WING TURN" and then I got on the gas.....There may have been ten to fifteen boats on the river testing, big mother flat bottoms and all....I came whistling down past the pits at 110 on OMC's Keller....Actually, maybe 107...OMC's fastest twin was going 91 MPH at the time...Just as I started to back her down I broke a crank....

We replaced the motor and Freddy Hauenstein took her for a ride...It looked like a little D Alky Hydro....."PRANCING" down the river...

Everyone saw it and realized it didn't "HOP" like a Switzer, it just went around the corner and hauled ***..

We lead Parker that year, first outboard to every lead, and Ann Strang "sold" (Offered it to Carl and he took the offer)... the boat to Carl for $8,000, that same day........When Jack Leek heard that Mac McConnell and Russ were selling the boat to Mercury, he bought it...Jimbo drove the wing the next year, when I drove the Hallett...

That's the rest of the story!

[Rick Connolly]

I've been reading here....I talk to Rick now and then.....In fact I found him one of his wings

Yes you did...thanks...I don't care what anyone else says about you your alright ;)

Another thing about the 18's was once Mercury bought the rights to the molds Mercury was their only customer. Other folks were knocking on Switzers door wanting one, but they couldn't sell them. So.....Switzer did not have a real big incentive to sell them especially if the price was locked in so the profit wasn't that high. I think that was a partial driver behind developing the 20 footer.

I have the same issue with my business a customer owns the mold I built.......folks want a part out of it, but I can't sell to anyone else.

[Rick Connolly]

BUNKER:

The real story on the second DeSilva Wing was that Mac McCune had given DeSilva a grand deposit to build a wing...Jack Leek flew out from Waukegan and Mac flew from Denver and we all met at DeSilva. The "Wing" was just that a WING...Mac and Leek looked at it and DECLARED IT NO GOOD....and basically left DeSilva's shop saying they could keep the $1,000 DEPOSIT.

Grandpa Hill (My dad) wasn't one to listen to Jack Leek, considering some 15 years earlier, Jack Leek was writing him letters asking him how to "HOP UP" motors...He also liked "The Kids" (Bill and Ralph DeSilva), so he asked Ralph what they wanted for the boat...as is? They said, "1,000 would make us happy."

Well, we had the 18" DeSilva runabout that Fred Miller had blow the bottom out of at Parker, I had helped repair the boat at DeSilva's and raced it in COBRA, but I'd sold it for $1,000 and kept the trailer....and the motors...

We went home and got the trailer, Jimbo and his dad happened to be at the house picking up one of Jimbo's motors...Jimbo's dad said, "He'd go half on the DeSilva...and wrote my dad a check for $500 on the spot...

We went back to DeSilva's and picked up the boat and paid them $1,000.

Rod Zapf had just left the Navy to fly for TWA and had time to burn. We were hanging out and such, he told the OLD MAN he'd help...Rod worked with my dad for about 30 days straight. They built cowlings both front and rear, my dad painted the red and ROD painted every black and white check....Though it seems maybe Phil Nichols may have given us advice on the checkers...

I told Leek we had the boat "Totally Tits" and I needed some motors for Parker...I had added aluminum angles for air traps on the runners and sponsons...(Like the Berghauers had on their Sid Crafts). We tested the boat on a rainy day at Elsinore with the two engine (89.9 Inchers) off the 18 foot DeSilva...I saw 85 on your DAD's Keller......as it only went to 85 but it wrapped around to where I felt it was going over 90 MPH...(Nobody went 90 with two 89.9 inchers)...

We headed to Parker, where Leek gave us two new engines... I remember clearly, warming them up and slowly heading up to the dam and I made a wide "WING TURN" and then I got on the gas.....There may have been ten to fifteen boats on the river testing, big mother flat bottoms and all....I came whistling down past the pits at 110 on OMC's Keller....Actually, maybe 107...OMC's fastest twin was going 91 MPH at the time...Just as I started to back her down I broke a crank....

We replaced the motor and Freddy Hauenstein took her for a ride...It looked like a little D Alky Hydro....."PRANCING" down the river...

Everyone saw it and realized it didn't "HOP" like a Switzer, it just went around the corner and hauled ***..

We lead Parker that year, first outboard to every lead, and Ann Strang "sold" (Offered it to Carl and he took the offer)... the boat to Carl for $8,000, that same day........When Jack Leek heard that Mac McConnell and Russ were selling the boat to Mercury, he bought it...Jimbo drove the wing the next year, when I drove the Hallett...

That's the rest of the story!


If you sold it for big $$$ and it ran great why didn't you build another one ??

[Ron Hill]

One word....MOLINARI. Once you drove one, saw one or touched one, you knew that was the BOAT of NOW and the future...

We did have Rich Hallett build a twin for the next season and I along with Dewey Berghauer finished second at Parker the next year....second by one foot to the OLD DeSilva Wing that Jerry Waylin and Alan Stinson drove...

Before I could get my hands on a twin Molinari, I got a 20 foot Ron Jones...

When I said turned good, turned good for a WING, but you still needed forty acres to turn one.

[Rick Connolly]

One word....MOLINARI. Once you drove one, saw one or touched one, you knew that was the BOAT of NOW and the future...

We did have Rich Hallett build a twin for the next season and I along with Dewey Berghauer finished second at Parker the next year....second by one foot to the OLD DeSilva Wing that Jerry Waylin and Alan Stinson drove...

Before I could get my hands on a twin Molinari, I got a 20 foot Ron Jones...

When I said turned good, turned good for a WING, but you still needed forty acres to turn one.

Was the Hallet an outboard....what did it look like ??

[T2x]

Was the Hallet an outboard....what did it look like ??

It's the boat in his avatar......

[Judi Cable]

Rick- The Parker Enduro began in 1963 & was 9 hrs. until 1975 when it was reduced to 7 hrs. Inboards ruled for 7 years until Alan Stinson & Jerry Walin won in a 21 ft. De Silva with dual OMC's in '70. Single Outboards have ruled except in '85 when Mitch Lembke won a v-12 Jaguar in a 24ft Molinari with a Mercury IB/OB. The race continued to be run nearly every year with a few years of NO-RACE until 2007. They still run Parker to this day but they run a shorter course & for less hours with unlimited 45 ci. with safety capsules. Boy things have changed since you used to see dual & triple stackers on big tunnels!

[Fast Fred]

:cool::eek::cool:

[bowman]

Judi they still run Parker enduro but it is similer to the old days. You have Inboard and outboard with 7 classes. It is a 300 mile race on a 5 mile loop. The racing stopped in the late 90s or early 2000 and restarted in 2005. Chad Hill drove to a victory in 2006, with no help by me driving the middle leg. I have raced the enduro for the last 4 years and it is great fun.

[Judi Cable]

Dear Bowman- If you watch the Videos of "In Memory of Dave Potter # 226 " & " Parker 1975 Pre-race testing", you will get the idea of how the race was in the '70's. Triple stackers- dual stackers - anything goes - any kind of boat & motor combination to win the 9 Hour Enduro! Those were the days! Inboarders & Outboarders going head to head! It doesn't get any better than that!

[Rick Connolly]

Interesting talking to folks the bits and pieces of things you can learn. I was told the yellow 140 Bob Massey wing was raced one last time as a tribute to him in the 70's. This was when the tunnels were in and twins were out. Glen Schiad (sp ??) borrowed the wing from Bobby's wife. The wing had some mods done to the bottom and was running at it's best handling wise. It was unknown exactly what year this happened. Looks like from the 1975 pre race video that was the year....it was a dinosaur by then. Story goes it was running in up front for a good part of the race until it broke down due to engine troubles. Curious to see the entire 1975 race footage to see if that is true. Anyone remember this ??

Picture of the same wing when Jan Schoonover raced it at the Salton Sea in 1967....it was brand new and metallic red. It was on loan to Jan from Mercury before Bobby Massey got it.

[Judi Cable]

Rick- Parker !975 was the year that Bobby Massey's Boat was run as a tribute. But believe you me, it was not running up front with the big boys before mechanical difficulties. Hering-Molinari averaged over 100 mph for 7 hours & they had to stop for fuel. I would say they were cruising at up to 120 mph all day long. That's an average faster than a wing ever went! Still impressive to this day

[Rick Connolly]

Thanks for the info. Just trying to sort out fact from fiction. Story sounded like a push, but you never now. When are going to have the rest of the Parker 1975 video finished.

[Judi Cable]

Rick- We have put a hold on Parker 1975. We are concentrating on videos of Havasu 1969-'70-'71. Alot of Wings & alot of Stackers! Wings you will be seeing in action-
# 3 John Taylor
#98 Red Adair
#111 Jan Schoonover
#119 Kenny Kitson
#135 Dave Sparks
#140 Bobby Massey
#333 Bob Nordskog
#99 ( # 199 Ed Stewart)
#108 Bill Flag
#688 (Driver unknown)
If anyone out there could help me identify the last wing driver, it would be greatly appreciated. We are also looking for "Stacker Audio" to complete future Videos. mrbenson55@gmail.com Thanks

[Fast Fred]

be lookin to find a 18' wing hull, in any condition, but not redone. thare must be a crashed and forgotin one some ware:cool:

[T2x]

thare must be a crashed and forgotin one some ware:cool:

Wanna bet?........

[Fast Fred]

findin it would seem more worth wile,:eek:

[Mark75H]

I bet even if you found one, you still could not afford it ;)

[Fast Fred]

:rolleyes: and just what kinda farm do ya have to bet. saw one sell for 18000. looked like it would float.:cool:

[T2x]

:rolleyes: and just what kinda farm do ya have to bet. saw one sell for 18000. looked like it would float.:cool:

A bunch of us have been searching for these things for years.....

I'm lucky enough to have one, and the others, even the barely saveable "scraps", have all been snapped up....or at least located and identified.

T2x

[Rick Connolly]

There are still more wings out there to be found I'm sure of that. Ironically more 20's are accounted for than the 18's. So far two 20's are running and one 18.....a few more running 20's will surface soon. 18's were rode hard and put away wet so the attrition rate was high.

Heard a third hand rumor about a red or orange wing in the mid west is getting completed. I did pick up some info that a 18 foot wing in very good condition was last seen in the mid west in the late 70's to early 80's. Never could track it down. Not sure if that is that one. Or maybe it could be the 20' Taylor Cleaners wing who knows.

Where is the #333 Bob Nordskog OMC owned wing that was last seen heading down the highway in the mid to late 80's ?? I know what state it was going to. At the time it was in excellent condition. Probably one of the nicest rigged wings back in the day.

They are out there.

[brichter]

I don't know of any. You should have gotten a picture. Was it a 20 or 18 ??? Only sand/cream colored one that comes to mind is Ted's 20, but I believe that is around Ohio.

Not sure if it was 18 or 20. It was colored like the pictures but more black on it. Trailer had small white wheels like that.
I rememer a lot of black on the rear cowl up high maybe a crescent shape.
I wonder if someone hauled one up to Tomahawk (AOMC nationals) which were last weekend.(?)
I was driving so I couldn't take a pic.
I was hoping to swing by on the way home but forgot and set GPS to shortest distance and took a different route.

[Rick Connolly]

Not sure if it was 18 or 20. It was colored like the pictures but more black on it. Trailer had small white wheels like that.
I rememer a lot of black on the rear cowl up high maybe a crescent shape.
I wonder if someone hauled one up to Tomahawk (AOMC nationals) which were last weekend.(?)
I was driving so I couldn't take a pic.
I was hoping to swing by on the way home but forgot and set GPS to shortest distance and took a different route.

Geez, now you are just teasing...... Think if one turned up a AOMC nationals someone would have heard about it. Sure it was a wing and you aren't suffering from "Wing Fever" :):)

[T2x]

As a SWAG within a year or so there should be 6 running 20's....and still just only one running 18 ?!?! .

6 running 20's....

1. Mine
2. Double Eagle
3. "Eddies"...in progress
4. yours?
5. ?
6. ?

[Rick Connolly]

6 running 20's....

1. Mine
2. Double Eagle
3. "Eddies"...in progress
4. yours?
5. ?
6. ?


List looks right so far :)

[largecar91]

list Looks Right So Far :)

You're An Evil Man!

[Rick Connolly]

I can only come up with six 18's that have survived. There has to be more....

[MN1]

Here is Millers old Wing that is now in Ohio. Not sure if it is rigged now or not.

What happened to the Twister 2's that were on it?
Also, around 1980 we sold a Twister 1 to a man from Florida. Supposedly it going to be put on a Switzer Wing. Don't remember his name. Did it go to Ted Miller?
Mark N

[Rick Connolly]

Ted was trying to get 10K for the pair of T2's when I talked to him. This was about a year before he passed away. No tell'en where Ted got the T2's. They were reported to be cream color.....Ted claimed they came from Mercury that way. Fact or fiction I couldn't tell you.

[T2x]

You're An Evil Man!

At best...... :p

[largecar91]

Ted was trying to get 10K for the pair of T2's when I talked to him. This was about a year before he passed away. No tell'en where Ted got the T2's. They were reported to be cream color.....Ted claimed they came from Mercury that way. Fact or fiction I couldn't tell you. Like this one??:D

[Rick Connolly]

Did the cowls come cream colored or just the pan down ??

[largecar91]

I have no clue!. Don't know if they were factory or not. I do remember a N.O.S. T2 mid several years ago on E-Bay that was the same ivory color. I think "Raceman"(Norris) on S & F bought it and swore it too was factory?

[T2x]

I saw those motors.... no way they were factory originals. Ted referred to them as "T2x's" and when I challenged him, he replied "What's the difference?". I explained in detail the (obvious) differences between a T2 and a T2x. He then told me that I was wrong and that he believed his motors were still T2x's.

My belief is that someone painted the mids to try and match that boat or another......

T2x

[largecar91]

I saw those motors.... no way they were factory originals. Ted referred to them as "T2x's" and when I challenged him, he replied "What's the difference?". I explained in detail the (obvious) differences between a T2 and a T2x. He then told me that I was wrong and that he believed his motors were still T2x's.

My belief is that someone painted the mids to try and match that boat or another......

T2x I would tend to agree with you. maybe that mid Norris bought came from Miller also?

[Rick Connolly]

I saw those motors.... no way they were factory originals. Ted referred to them as "T2x's" and when I challenged him, he replied "What's the difference?". I explained in detail the (obvious) differences between a T2 and a T2x. He then told me that I was wrong and that he believed his motors were still T2x's.

My belief is that someone painted the mids to try and match that boat or another......

T2x

Did Ted make another friend that day ??

[Rick Connolly]

I would tend to agree with you. maybe that mid Norris bought came from Miller also?

Talking to Ted I got the feeling he made things they way he wanted. I vaguely recall Ted claiming he had some sort of factory picture/advertisment that showed the cream colored Mercs....he couldn't find it at the time though.

[brichter]

Geez, now you are just teasing...... Think if one turned up a AOMC nationals someone would have heard about it. Sure it was a wing and you aren't suffering from "Wing Fever" :):)
All I know is it was a similar to a wing, not being an expert I can't be sure if it was a Switzer, Dutchman, DeSilva or any other copy. Looking at the pictures on this thread I can say it most resembled the sand colored T-19 boat on the first page, but with some black on the rear.
Doesn't seem like it should be too implausible to spot one only 100 miles or so from Fond Du Lac.
Not really suffering from wing fever, but now I am curious. I'll do some investigating.

[Rick Connolly]

All I know is it was a similar to a wing, not being an expert I can't be sure if it was a Switzer, Dutchman, DeSilva or any other copy. Looking at the pictures on this thread I can say it most resembled the sand colored T-19 boat on the first page, but with some black on the rear.
Doesn't seem like it should be too implausible to spot one only 100 miles or so from Fond Du Lac.
Not really suffering from wing fever, but now I am curious. I'll do some investigating.


Hummm, the plot thickens. The T-19 is the one in my avitar and resting in AZ. Curious to hear what you can find out.

[Willabee]

Did the cowls come cream colored or just the pan down ??

You could order the T2 in any color you wanted.....however, it only dressed in black.

[Rick Connolly]

Kind of like the Ford Model T you can get it any color you want as long as it's black :rolleyes:

[Powercat]

Like this one?
http://www.powercatboat.com/Switzer/Miller/Ted04.jpg

Ted was trying to get 10K for the pair of T2's when I talked to him. This was about a year before he passed away. No tell'en where Ted got the T2's. They were reported to be cream color.....Ted claimed they came from Mercury that way. Fact or fiction I couldn't tell you.

[Rick Connolly]

Like this one?
http://www.powercatboat.com/Switzer/Miller/Ted04.jpg

Thanks for the picture. That color combo doesn't look right. It's tough to think Mercury made them that way.

[T2x]

Thanks for the picture. That color combo doesn't look right. It's tough to think Mercury made them that way.

They didn't........ Check Willabee's post. They came in Black...or you could order another color....and get Black.

One guy paints his center sections and lowers and it becomes an urban legend. What a waste of bandwidth.

[Mark75H]

They didn't........ Check Willabee's post. They came in Black...or you could order another color....and get Black.

One guy paints his center sections and lowers and it becomes an urban legend. What a waste of bandwidth.


Agreed

Ted did and said a lot of things that served Ted more then posterity

[Lake X Kid]

51945

[Powercat]

54533
Miss Diablo is once again back on the water !!

[Gene East]

I just read this thread for the first time. It's such a shame to see a once beautiful boat with weeds and brush growing through the hull.

The first "wing" I ever saw was a "woodie") belonging to a man named Ray Block. No not the band leader! Of course it was painted black!

We (Quincy Welding) ported, balanced and piped his engines. They sounded great and his boat was one of the fastest around the Tri- states (IL, MO & IA) but I don't remember the racing number.

Ray had to give up racing due to cancer. He offered to let me drive it for him. I don't know if he was serious or not, but I was smart enough to turn him down. I knew that was "Out of my league."

Ray told me his boat was the "plug" for the first fiberglass Switzer.

Does anyone remember Ray or his boat number??

[Rick Connolly]

I just read this thread for the first time. It's such a shame to see a once beautiful boat with weeds and brush growing through the hull.

The first "wing" I ever saw was a "woodie") belonging to a man named Ray Block. No not the band leader! Of course it was painted black!

We (Quincy Welding) ported, balanced and piped his engines. They sounded great and his boat was one of the fastest around the Tri- states (IL, MO & IA) but I don't remember the racing number.

Ray had to give up racing due to cancer. He offered to let me drive it for him. I don't know if he was serious or not, but I was smart enough to turn him down. I knew that was "Out of my league."

Ray told me his boat was the "plug" for the first fiberglass Switzer.

Does anyone remember Ray or his boat number??

Never seen a picture of a black wood wing. All the ones surfacing on film or pictures are mostly white. Like the one pictured.

[Gene East]

Thanks Rick for your response. Over the past 40-50 years I've forgotten a few things, but I'm 99.44% sure Ray's boat was black. The thread is very interesting. Wish I had checked it out long ago.

[Willabee]

....The first "wing" I ever saw was a "woodie") belonging to a man named Ray Block. No not the band leader! Of course it was painted black!

We (Quincy Welding) ported, balanced and piped his engines. They sounded great and his boat was one of the fastest around the Tri- states (IL, MO & IA) but I don't remember the racing number.

Ray told me his boat was the "plug" for the first fiberglass Switzer.

Does anyone remember Ray or his boat number??

Were the engines 6 piper's? Was Ray a good friend of Earl Welch? Earl drove a gold/white Wing with 6 piper's. Thought his engine work was also done at Quincy? ..... #T-111 I think for Earl's Wing.

[Rick Connolly]

Thanks Rick for your response. Over the past 40-50 years I've forgotten a few things, but I'm 99.44% sure Ray's boat was black. The thread is very interesting. Wish I had checked it out long ago.

This is the one that I believe was the plug for the fiberglass wings. This picture was taken late in it's racing career and is a lot darker than most.

[Gene East]

Were the engines 6 piper's? Was Ray a good friend of Earl Welch? Earl drove a gold/white Wing with 6 piper's. Thought his engine work was also done at Quincy? ..... #T-111 I think for Earl's Wing.

The engines were indeed 6-pipers. I don't really remember Earl Welch, but it's possible. I remember Ray asked for no visitors while he was dying. I did talk to someone who went to see him any way. That may have been Earl. We made a lot of pipes. Even some of the factory pipes were contracted to Q.W.

[Gene East]

Could it be we are talking about the same boat? The engines pictured do not have cowlings. Ray never used cowlings on his engines. I'm sure Ray probably sold his boat when he got too sick to race.
If so, the new owner may have repainted it. Who owns/owned this boat?
Most people think Ford built the first automobile. Of course that's not true, but it does make interesting conversation.
I received a phone call from Paul Christner about an hour ago. Paul is the son of O.F. Christner owner of Quincy Welding.
Paul confirms Ray's boat was indeed black.

[Willabee]

The engines were indeed 6-pipers. I don't really remember Earl Welch, but it's possible. I remember Ray asked for no visitors while he was dying. I did talk to someone who went to see him any way. That may have been Earl. We made a lot of pipes. Even some of the factory pipes were contracted to Q.W.

There weren't many 6 pipe Wings, so I'm pretty sure I know the boat you are talking about. Rick, you may recall quite some time ago we were talking about who ran Wings back in the day and I mentioned Earl and his friend with a black 18', both having six pipe stackers ..... Ray Bloch is the name I couldn't come up with. Ray's Wing was indeed black, but as I recall it, they both ran glass 18'ers.

I think those guys ran 1000's. I saw them at a few races including the Parker 9 Hour. They always pitted next to each other, seemed to go out to test together. I think I recall Earl having all grey hair and this was 68ish, don't remember if Ray had any or not. Point is it seemed that they were a little older than most guys putting on a helmet and that they really came to these events just to have fun. They made one hell of a lot of noise, and were very entertaining, but didn't seem to race very hard. Matter of fact, at a race in St. Louis, they ran their Wings on a short course and got lapped, but still had a good time and the fans seemed to love those big ol' noisey boats. :D

Just my opinion, but back in that 67/68 time period, if you were going to a boat race for the first time, nothing got your attention like a Wing with stacks or a triple engine Powercat ..... mean, very mean looking machines!

I think this is Earl's Wing, Boots Spellman bought it from Merc and ran a couple of club races still dressed in it's original colors.

http://i43.tinypic.com/rblkqa.jpg

[Gene East]

There weren't many 6 pipe Wings, so I'm pretty sure I know the boat you are talking about. Rick, you may recall quite some time ago we were talking about who ran Wings back in the day and I mentioned Earl and his friend with a black 18', both having six pipe stackers ..... Ray Block is the name I couldn't come up with. Ray's Wing was indeed black, but as I recall it, they both ran glass 18'ers.

I think those guys ran 1000's. I saw them at a few races including the Parker 9 Hour. They always pitted next to each other, seemed to go out to test together. I think I recall Earl having all grey hair and this was 68ish, don't remember if Ray had any or not. Point is it seemed that they were a little older than most guys putting on a helmet and that they really came to these events just to have fun. They made one hell of a lot of noise, and were very entertaining, but didn't seem to race very hard. Matter of fact, at a race in St. Louis, they ran their Wings on a short course and got lapped, but still had a good time and the fans seemed to love those big ol' noisey boats. :D

Just my opinion, but back in that 67/68 time period, if you were going to a boat race for the first time, nothing got your attention like a Wing with stacks or a triple engine Powercat ..... mean, very mean looking machines!

I think this is Earl's Wing, Boots Spellman bought it from Merc and ran a couple of club races still dressed in it's original colors.

http://i43.tinypic.com/rblkqa.jpg

I'm more and more convinced that the man who I talked to about Ray was Earl. I think you are correct in your statement that neither driver pushed too hard.

I was involved with promoting some OPC races in Quincy in those days. One race we promoted for 3 years was a two lap race from Quincy,IL to La Grange, MO, a distance of about 40 miles. Ray was always among the leaders in the first lap, but never finished the second lap. Always some minor problem such as a broken wire etc. The 6 pipe engines were a big crowd pleaser. They also may be part of the reason I wear hearing aides.

As far as whether the boats were wood or glass; I don't know about Earl's boat, but Ray's looked and felt like wood to me. If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck.......

[Willabee]

I'm more and more convinced that the man who I talked to about Ray was Earl. I think you are correct in your statement that neither driver pushed too hard.

As far as whether the boats were wood or glass; I don't know about Earl's boat, but Ray's looked and felt like wood to me. If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck.......

Gene, I received a photo from mbd29 of the black Wing with the six pipe powerheads that I was talking about. This is the boat that seemed to always pit and test with[IMG]http://i39.tinypic.com/333zimu.jpg[/ the gold & white six piper owned and driven by Earl Welch. I believe this Wing was owned and driven by Ray Block, is it the Wing you were talking about?

Picture didn't print, I'll try again. :confused:

[Willabee]

Could it be we are talking about the same boat? The engines pictured do not have cowlings. Ray never used cowlings on his engines. I'm sure Ray probably sold his boat when he got too sick to race.
I received a phone call from Paul Christner about an hour ago. Paul is the son of O.F. Christner owner of Quincy Welding.
Paul confirms Ray's boat was indeed black.

Gene, is this the Ray Block Wing? It is the one I remember pairing with Earl Welch as we discussed.

http://i42.tinypic.com/140euye.jpg