Fuels

[Skoontz]

Sam brought up a point I have been looking at for a few months now, this being the fuel rules.

4. Digatron DT-47FT Fuel Tester
This test is used to detect the presence of illegal oxidizers in a fuel mix. It does this by comparing the
fuel being tested to a known sample in which the instrument has been zeroed. The presence of illegal
additives will cause the instrument to read a positive number. The positive reading is proportional to the
amount of additives in the fuel. We have expanded the usable range of this test to allow readings from
fuel containing methanol.

this taken from ABPA rule book.

Does anyone in the audience have a test showing that oxidizers significantly increase performance in a stock outboard?

I'm very curious here, as in CA, we use 3 different fuel blends with free to be, you and me, woe is me hug a tree mixes. there are times, when this is all you get....Seems to me, that unless it can be shown the oxidizers raise performance, at least out here in the land of fruits and nuts, we could save a whole bunch of grief by easing up on this rule....

Input anyone>?

[carl lewis]

Bill, there was a MAJOR problem with this a few years ago now at the stock nationals, I'm sure there is still a thread on that other site about it..
But reading your questions about fuel a week or so with George and what he runs on the east coast. up here,I or should say quite a few of us run Chevron as it seems not to have any "winter " stuff in it and it stays well with in the meter. I have tried supreme and regular and to be honest I see the same performance from both. Texaco have pulled out from here but our BP is more less 76 now since the pumps are orange and a little green oh yeah and the shell pumps are a a little black /red and yellow so I guess Texaco do still have a presence in the northwest.

a few years ago now I did mix a few "things" in some fuel to see what would happen, really bizarre stuff, but it still read good, tried it in testing but never in the race and for the price of the stuff and for the price of a block, pistons etc ( as in what could have happened) and the next 20 years of my friends looking over my shoulder I have not gone there ever again.

hope this helps a bit

Regards, Carl

[Mark75H]

Oxidizers do increase performance in internal combustion engines, not a lot unless a heavy dose is used, but probably enough to increase each Stock record by 2 or 3 mph on a super tuned kilo boat at 10% ethanol. Basically 10% ethanol is enough to cause one generation of speed records, but probably not enough for the average racer to take advantage of without help ... but that will happen ... there is always a Ed Runne, Harry Brinkman or Harry Pasturzak out there.

The situation is that RFG with 10% ethanol is not actually widely used outside CA, the east coast I-95 corridor from Fredericksburg VA to Maine, the big cities in Texas and a few other basically northern cities. APBA's "fuel of the day" rule is actually sufficient as long as Divisionals and Nationals are not held in these areas and I think that is taken into consideration when they are awarded to particular locations.

I'm pretty sure I recently read the Nationals where the closest station had gas that went over was cured by going another mile to the next station where the gas was OK.

[Mark75H]

The map

http://www.epa.gov/OMSWWW/rfg/images/rfgmap-v2-500.gif

The link

http://www.epa.gov/OMSWWW/rfg/whereyoulive.htm

[Joe Silvestri 36-S]

Some of you may think I'm off my rocker, but I would like to see stock and mod go to straight ethenol. It would be better for the enviornment and it would eliminate the hassle of finding fuel that will pass the meter test. How much faster, if at all, would a stock or mod engine go if you did nothing more than switch from gasoline to ethenol?

[Mark75H]

Since you can't just switch to alcohol without changes in carburation, it is sort of a moot question. I think you were hoping that it could be done with no big cost to each racer.

With changes limited to the carburation & ignition timing to optimize the fuel switch, Stocks could probably go about 5 mph faster in each class ... everyone would need a new prop, carb jetting and timing changed to stay competitive ... $300 to $500 out of pocket for the prop and other stuff if you can't do it all your self. Dewald could not make enough props fast enough for all classes to change over in one year.

Some of the mod classes would see the same speed increases, but others would see dramatic increases because the existing rules vary widely from class to class as to what is already allowed. 850 would probably gain the most ... everyone on the same lap with the leaders would be running well over 100 in competition, maybe 110+. I would guess that a lot of racers don't really want to go a lot faster to stay competitive, we'd have to rewrite the Mod rule book to write in new restrictions to keep speeds the same.

There is the down side of alcohol to remember as well ... it evaporates quickly, very poor for storage. So poor that many alky crews dose their motors with gas & oil before they hang them up for the weekend. In cooler weather it makes motors pretty hard to start. A lot of the primer squirt cans you see have alcohol, oil and gas to make the alkies start easier.

[Skoontz]

OK, thanks for the input. So, what rule changes could be made in the fuel requirements of stock to make this a simpler way to do things? Since Roger Carr told me the approved digitron fuel gauge cost him $595 7 years ago, there has to be a way to allow a little more latitude in fuel blends other than fuel of the day to ease up some of the stress on weather you will bump the meter or not.....

[Mark75H]

What's the problem with the fuel of the day rule?

You ask to have your gas tested before the race, if it bumps more than the gas the race committee bought at the closest pump, you go to that pump and buy some.

[Skoontz]

Fuel of the day works just fine , Sam. Ideas are also good to place on the table, because, they in turn, generate new sometimes better, sometimes not so better ideas....

[Mark75H]

OK, here is a direction it could go if 10% ethanol became much more wide spread. It probably gives a pretty predictable reading on the meter. We could bump up to that reading as the legal limit and maybe another parameter like specific gravity to help keep racers honest (ethanol is slightly heavier than gasoline).

[David Mason]

In NBRA they already bumped the fuel meter to comply with the ethonol in pump gas. It has been this way for a couple year if not a few. Once a problem was recognized it was solved quickly. The rule may need revisited and the bump made again because it seems more pump gas is reading far more positive numbers than a few years ago.

Fuel of the day works as well. Combine both fuel of the day and the higher allowable readings and I think you woul dhave it covered for all pump gas.

Joe, you are on the right track. But Sam is partially correct, a good FE on on alkie can produce some serious numbers. They currently run these in the Pro Division in the 1100 Runabout. I have seen a couple, provided consults to build one. It saw some decent speeds on the 1100 Runabout a few years ago. Not close to what Terry is seeing though in the kilo. And yes, you need to flood your alkie engines with gas & oil at the end of the day or the cyls rust. It is the same as when you hone your gas cyls and wash them out with hot soapy water, it begins surface rusting almost immediately.

[one eight-w]

Skoontz-
Testers are available here for less.

www.digatrondirect.com/fuel.htm

[Skoontz]

Thanks 1-8!

I gotta question though....didn't the rule book call specifically for the Digitron DT-47, or DT-15 at one point?

As I read under stock fuel requirements, it says Digitron or it's equivelant, with no specificity. Then, drop down to the modified fuel rules right underneath, and it calls Digitron DT-15, or DT-47 specifically.

When I was talking to Roger Carr, he also told me the rule book calls for Digitron by number and name. The reason I ask, micron had one for $175, but, if it is not the right tool per the book, no need wasting money....

[Roy Hodges]

Thanks 1-8!

I gotta question though....didn't the rule book call specifically for the Digitron DT-47, or DT-15 at one point?

As I read under stock fuel requirements, it says Digitron or it's equivelant, with no specificity. Then, drop down to the modified fuel rules right underneath, and it calls Digitron DT-15, or DT-47 specifically.

When I was talking to Roger Carr, he also told me the rule book calls for Digitron by number and name. The reason I ask, micron had one for $175, but, if it is not the right tool per the book, no need wasting money...................................
.................................................. .................................................. ..............................

Q; Does this micron read the same as the Digitron? If so , i might want to buy one for my own use (unofficial) for testing between races .

[Scott23]

If anyone is interested in the DT-47. I have one still with the plastic on. Let me know. $250 plus shipping. Scott

[one eight-w]

Skoontz-
I suggest you bookmark the APBA homepage. There is alot of the info you are looking for on it, espically pertaining to rules and procedures. Heck, I didn't know that this was on there.

From the APBA website...

www.apba-racing.com/Forms/Fuel/Digatron%20Fuel%20Test.pdf

[Gstillwill]

Does anybody know just how sensitive the meters are. Most of the unleaded race gas is oxgenated by some percent. The Sunoco GT-100 says its 3 percent oxgenated. Most of the leaded isnt but hate to go to a leaded gas. I never had a problem with Amoco here is Va but they are now going to 10% entehol and all the stations by June the first has to have it in all grades. I can get AV gas but find in a low compresion motor it burns to slow and dont make the same power as pump gas. I could bleand the GT-100 and AV gas hell now you have to be a chemist and buy a meter.:D

[Mark75H]

George, the meters are very sensitive to any amount of alcohol

[David Mason]

Does anybody know just how sensitive the meters are. Most of the unleaded race gas is oxgenated by some percent. The Sunoco GT-100 says its 3 percent oxgenated. Most of the leaded isnt but hate to go to a leaded gas. I never had a problem with Amoco here is Va but they are now going to 10% entehol and all the stations by June the first has to have it in all grades. I can get AV gas but find in a low compresion motor it burns to slow and dont make the same power as pump gas. I could bleand the GT-100 and AV gas hell now you have to be a chemist and buy a meter.:D

George,

Welcome to boat racing today, you seemed to be one of the last ones affected by the gas issues.

We take some of the bad gas and mix it with the good Av gas to get the right octane, as we have the same issue you had with the burn. So we still guess on the mix, but so far so good, and we ALWAYS get it checked as soon as possible at the race site.

It really sucks to be honest, we are all affected by the problem and there seems to be no common sense prevailing in inspection to ease up. Hell, one has to go to extreme lengths to find legal gas anymore. Why should we all have to spend such big dollars on race gas buying Torco, or Av gas ? It is tough enough to spend the cash on gas to get there.

[Pop990]

I honestly believe that the good old boys who make and enforce these rules do not care how much it costs us to race.

[Rusrog]

I honestly believe that the good old boys who make and enforce these rules do not care how much it costs us to race.

Incorrect... Completely incorrect. Actually it's just the opposite. Keeping things fair and 'by the rule book' does nothing but keep the cost down for racers. What if you do all the testing and prop work and get your rig flying, only to get beat by someone who sits on his *** and then adds the appropriate amount of 'hooch' to win??? Are you coming back? You followed the rules and you did it right and still... someone else has your trophy & your check.

Also.. If you know you are getting a fair shake at the race, aren't you going to be more likely to go racing? WIth more racers showing up, (because they know they are going to get a fair shake) the purse goes up and the financial benefit to the club goes up as well.

And frankly... You can get set up in a quality fuel testing system for around $500 that will drastically tighten up the fuel situation.

In the long run... It's a cheap price to pay for the benefits.

[Mark75H]

Its not us vs them ... if you don't like the rules, talk the ears off of your local commissioner.

Until there is a crisis at a Regionals or Nationals the current rule works.

[Mark75H]

the purse goes up and the financial benefit to the club goes up as well.

And frankly... You can get set up in a quality fuel testing system for around $500 that will drastically tighten up the fuel situation.

In the long run... It's a cheap preice to pay for the benefits.

Russ, you are talking about a different league than most here ...

Most of our races have no cash purse ... there is no "up" when zero is all there is. $500 buys a lot of race gas or consistently legal AV gas for Stock and Mod kneel down racers ... no where near our break even point.

[Rusrog]

Russ, you are talking about a different league than most here ...

Most of our races have no cash purse ... there is no "up" when zero is all there is. $500 buys a lot of race gas or consistently legal AV gas for Stock and Mod kneel down racers ... no where near our break even point.

Oh. Well. I didn't know that. SO most of these clubs don't put the entry fees in the pot?
Well then you're right. Quarantine the fuel and hope every one is honest. Most are and the ones that aren't are the ones that have to look themselves in the mirror every morning.

Russ

[Mark75H]

Entry fees pay for insurance and sanction fees, site rent ... sometimes the clubs don't even break even.

We test fuel for polar additives/electrical conductivity, no need for quarantine.

[Skoontz]

Ok, we've talked about this fuel issue allot...So, let me pose this question. Has anyone ever shown a clear advantage, I.E. documented horsepower leading to an advantage over a boat using pump gas from one station to the next with no added ingredients other than what the refinery created? And, could the parameters of fuel ranges be given more latitude so an honest person who simply stops at any major gas station for his race fuel not need to worry about getting DQed because of a pump blend? I think that's what would make more sense given the fuels available in certain areas if there was no clear advantage.

[Pop990]

I am not saying that we shouldn't have rules, but you tell me why we should have to buy race gas to mix with the pump gas so it will pass the meter. What is wrong with gas of the day? Weren't these classes created for legal motors to run service station pump gas?

[Mark75H]

Ok, we've talked about this fuel issue allot...So, let me pose this question. Has anyone ever shown a clear advantage, I.E. documented horsepower leading to an advantage over a boat using pump gas from one station to the next with no added ingredients other than what the refinery created? And, could the parameters of fuel ranges be given more latitude so an honest person who simply stops at any major gas station for his race fuel not need to worry about getting DQed because of a pump blend? I think that's what would make more sense given the fuels available in certain areas if there was no clear advantage.

At the reading for 10% ethanol, there would probably not be an advantage in a stock motor in circle competition; it might be enough to let Wartinger up most of the kilo records though. It would increase power in some mod motors prepared to run on it. The reading for 10% ethanol will vary much more than the reading for zero ethanol. It would be very difficult to define and enforce.

Like I keep saying ... nothing will be done until it completely messes up a Divisional or Nationals and they will not be awarded to locations likely to have trouble.

[bill boyes]

Us Calif racers have been dealing the the Ethanol blended fuels for 20 years. Was considered a Calif problem and not our problem from other Regions. Now it is an issue all over the US. Funny thing one year I bought 5 gals Union in La Salle while at the Pro Nationals and it went off the meter like + 30. Dang what to do so I dumped it into the rental car and bought the same octane from another Union about 2 miles from the first one and it was about -40. Seems this is the norm now. What we do now in Region 11 is have Fuel of the day at some at some races were the meter is set for 87 octane at a certain Chevron station. A lot of us use Av Gas if they can get it. Or what I have done for years is buy Race fuel 110 octane leaded and mix it 50/50 with Pump 87 gas. Mix it with Redline 20/1 and the meter will read -30 to -40. Keep the fuel out of the sun and only mix what you plan to use that day. I mix 2 1/2 gals at a time. What i have left over from the weekend I use it in the lawnmower.

[David Mason]

Or what I have done for years is buy Race fuel 110 octane leaded and mix it 50/50 with Pump 87 gas. Mix it with Redline 20/1 and the meter will read -30 to -40. Keep the fuel out of the sun and only mix what you plan to use that day. I mix 2 1/2 gals at a time. What i have left over from the weekend I use it in the lawnmower.

That is what we are doing now. It sucks because the 110 is very expensive, at least here it is.

It certainly would be great if we could simply allow pump gas and come up with a test for additives banned. If the records go up, they go up. Or preserve them and begin a new slate once a new rule is adopted to allow pump gas. That way Wart can get another 200 or so.

[Mark75H]

Tests exist for the banned additives, but the tests are very expensive. Entry fees would have to be 3 or 4 times what they are now to buy the test kits.

For the time being, all you should have to do to get away from 10% ethanol is go outside the marked areas on this map and buy your gas:

http://www.epa.gov/otaq/rfg/images/rfgmap-v2-500.gif

[Gstillwill]

From what BP told me on the phone all the state of Va will be in the red by June 1st. I will just go with the Sunoco 110 Leaded and may blend with Av gas. If you go to Suns web site they also give what the Dielectric Constant is of each grade of race gas so its easy to see which would pass the meter. The GT-100 has a 11.8 which I asume it means to the plus side. The 110 leaded has a reading of -0.1 so should pass the meter. Atleast its design for high RPM usage and should be constant with the jet sizes. I dont have to order it I can go right to the track and fill my own cans and according to Sunoco as long as its stored proper it has a shelf life of 2 years. Price is 6.75 a gal about double from what Im using now but seeing that we dont use that much gas then its not to bad. Hell Hi test pump gas will be 4.50 a gal by summer anyway. Down side of all this is there are stuff you can add to gas to really make a differance and the meter wont pick it up.

[Mark75H]

Wouldn't it be a quicker trip just to head in to West-by-God Virginia and buy clean gas there?

[Gstillwill]

It probably would but its just a bandaide for things that are comming so might as well find a fix now. Beisdes there are only 14 states that require a sticker on the pumps saying that the gas has Ethanol in the gas so you never know that its in there in the other states. From reading this on MSN it looks like clean gas after this year will become a thing of the past.

"A couple of things are going to work in the favor of a more temperate price of gasoline down the road," adds Kloza. "Ethanol is going to displace a lot of the demand for gasoline because it's going to take 10 percent of gasoline out of the formula and replace it nearly everywhere east of the Mississippi this year. The second thing is prices won't be up a spectacular amount from previous years; it may be up a percentage point or so. But this is not the start of the $4- to $5[-dollar-a gallon] apocalypse for gasoline."

[Skoontz]

What is going to occur, undoubtedly in the world of junk science, and is already happening, is, rumblings of fertilizer run off (most of which can be legitimately shown with out bogus studies) in bays, and, food prices getting driven up, will cause yet more tweaking of fuels. The addition of one thing such as ethanol will show some negative impact somewhere, another movie using junk science will be produced, and a new additive will be introduced. What, and when, God only knows. What it will do to a fuel meter reading, and how it will perform? Same thing. The other scenario is that, there are quite a few companies greasing politicians to keep the ethanol movement going, and it won't go away soon, but, I'm betting in 5 years it will be superceded by something....

[David Mason]

Tests exist for the banned additives, but the tests are very expensive. Entry fees would have to be 3 or 4 times what they are now to buy the test kits.

For the time being, all you should have to do to get away from 10% ethanol is go outside the marked areas on this map and buy your gas:

http://www.epa.gov/otaq/rfg/images/rfgmap-v2-500.gif

Sam,

The website might tell you it is correct, and book research may tell you that map is right, but in reality it is not right. It is just about everywhere. I can't rely on ANY gas station in MI to have legal fuel at any given time. I don't see your map indicating MI is a contaminated state. I will take personal expereince over books and websites any day.

George, be carefull with that Sunoco, our local filling stations fuel does not pass the meter. Last time I checked it it was something like positive 150. Now mind you, we use only premium grade of 91 octane or better. You can find lots of 87 octane to pass at several stations.