2 b or not 2 b

[fbref5269]

hi all,

i want to report my sucess in obtaining a b looper. i found 2. the first one everyone has bee following with jeff lytle as the point person. and what an outstanding job he did!!!!! the way it was packed it could survive anything!!!! we had fun with that one. the engine number is fb166. i've written paul and he will post who originally owned it. he has told me but i'd like him to post it. the engine came pretty much intact less a lower unit. will decide whether to get a quickie or put a konig on it. i'll be doing an internal inspection soon. #1 cyl doesn't seem to have very much compression. i've included some pictures with this post. fb166 is the one on the tower. has a funky way to hold the timing though, bailing wire:) pretty high tech.

the othe b looper came in 3 boxes and nothing was attached to anything. many of you may have seen it in another post. it's the one sam cullis used for his labeling project. showing what all those holes were. the engine number is fb218. once again i would like paul to post who originally owned this one too. i've included pictures of this one too. some one, not quincy, experimented with adding water passages but they go no where. we think the project was never completed. one interesting thing about the block, if you look ad the one picture, is the finger port in the cyl. this was a groove milled in the cyl. gene or paul... give us the lowdown on the purpose of the finger port please.

hope you enjoy the pictures and i'll be posting more.

frank

[Original Looper 1]

Frank,

The crankcase on this B engine, that you furnished us the photos of, appears to be in mint condition. Never been glass beaded or wire brushed. If it were me, I would soak it in Safety Kleen (brand name) parts cleaner. I Think You can get it at Napa auto parts stores. Just use extreme caution and protective eye wear & gloves. Don't soak it too long as it can go from bright to tarnish very quickly.

FB 166 was originally owned by the famous Karl Williams of Canada. FB 218 was originally owned by the famous boat racer John Schubert, who posts often here on BRF. We have a racing legends page on the QuincyLooperRacing.us web site dedicated to John & his career and hope to have his bio info back up soon (a web server error knocked a bunch of info & pictures off our site that we are slowly adding back). I may have a dyno card on the Schubert Looper & maybe even the Williams Looper. I will check and get back to you.

Jeff Lytle is a great guy for helping you find these and shipping them to you. If anyone deserves to find a mint C or D Looper engine, it's Jeff. I'm looking for an engine for Jeff too. Jeff helped my wife and I with the new Quincy site and we think he's a pretty special friend.

As to the finger port in question - some call them puff ports: they appear to help somewhat but are more limited in power gains with the Looper because it had 4 transfers per cylinder to start with. The Konig it seemed to help more because it only had 2 main transfers per cylinder. Most everything now has 6 to 8 transfers per cyl. Ports are everywhere, ie Swiss cheese. The theory, I think, behind the puff port or finger port is that the inertia of the air movement following the inside of the piston crown when the piston is approaching top dead center at a high rate of speed is converted to a more usable air movement thru the piston hole and finger cylinder port into the combustion chamber when the piston changes direction for a more net volatile combustion, instead of simply bouncing back in the crankcase when the piston heads back towards bottom dead center as it then would become a lesser usefill air movement flow capacity due to the wasted energy consumed moving air in a more needlessly reciprocating fashion then necessary.

Paul

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

When Bill Tenney put 2 more transfer ports into British Anzani class A and B Alkys prior to 1965 his engineers were on to something that loop engine needed. Its lack of efficient breathing and use of increasing amounts of nitro to stay ahead was telling. It was very much well thought of by Quincy and Konig in their future developments. It was not long before Crescent also picked up on increasing port numbers for all the same reasons but they had to deal with the poor performance of their chromed cylinders but eventually they never made it. None of the Quincy engines I rebuilt had the finger or in wall transfer ports what are considered or termed boost ports today so these pictures are really something different for me in cylinder wise. How many of these ports were installed originally or retrofitted before the Quincy Flathead line came to an end? In any case, very nice!

[fbref5269]

hi all,

here are some more pictures of fb218. it was easy yo take these sine it was all apart. as soon as i get into fb166 i'll post them too. i want to find out why number 1 cyl has low compression.

note the plate welded on to the crank. was this done at quincy? there is a picture of the head with a thinner version next to it. john schubert said he remembers dick odea making a 2 piece head for extra cooling. has anyone seen this head or does anyone have one for sale? also the spay shield can be seen on the engine on paul's new web site. go to racing ledgens and look for john schubert. the picture posted on that page in boat j-4 is of fb218.

hope you enjoy the pictures

frank

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

Its interesting to see what racers did to reduce crankcase CCs so in this case plates welded on were used to compensate or decrease CCs. In some cases like adding in finger ports crankcase CCs increase to where ideal optimization could not be maintained so they stuffed the crankcase another way by welding on the crank.

[Original Looper 1]

Frank,

Looking at the picture of your Looper B crankshaft, it appears that Quincy Welding welded on the crankshaft stuffer plates. That is something that we continued from the Deflector transformation to the Loopers. I think Gene East could comment more, as I seem to recall Gene welding them on quite a few crankshafts.

As to the 2 piece cylinder heads, we at Quincy Welding made those too. You have to remember that when Quincy Welding 1st came out with the Loopers, the horsepower of the B Looper was in the low 40's. At the end of the B Looper development, we had some approaching 70 hp. Obviously, more horsepower produces more combustion heat that must be properly dissipated.

Paul

[RichardKCMo]

Great site , and pics just can't say anymore , great though, 'cept for 2 way talk, sure that will come though.

RichardKCMo

[Frank Volker]

If you look at the geometry of the intake ports, you will notice that they are aimed toward the "back" of the cylinder. The mixture flow tends to form a "dam" at the point where the two directed streams meet at the cylinder wall. When this occurs, pressure increases at this point and the mixture will take the easiest path--most likely through the exhaust port(s). Because of the 90 degree angle between the cylinder wall and piston crown, the tendency will be for the air to flow upward. In addition, the air will tend to "hug" the back wall of the cylinder. This is known as the Coanda effect and happens with or without the extra port. With the "puff" port in place, there is a layer of air in motion along the back of the cylinder directed toward the top of the cylinder, which most likely aids the upward flow of the intake charge and minimizes the damming effect. This port is usually very shallow and is timed to open ahead of the main intake transfer ports.

The big goal is to form what is called a tumble vortex in the upper part of the cylinder to scavenge the exhaust products. Ideally, the combustion chamber is also purged in this process. This is most likely why locating the combustion chamber at the back of the cylinder seemed to produce better performance in the flatheads.

Hope this helps.

Frank V.

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

That is the best technical explanation only an engineer could and did give. The on crankshaft weld? Was that to compensate for increasing the crankcase side for putting in finger ports or was something more structural while racing considered. Merc 20H cranks were known to break so was that plate and welding some prevention done?

[Frank Volker]

John, The crankshaft padding goes back to the deflector days and carried through to the flatheads. The intent was most likely to decrease crankcase volume. I believe it was done on both 20H and MK-25 Cshafts. The 20H shafts soon became a mechanical weak spot in the flatheads; not because of welding, but because of the small cross-section of the center bearing. Eventually, all FA's and FB's used MK 25 shafts. At about the same time, we went to the special-made heavy duty rod caps and lighter flywheels. I seem to recall that even the early FB's used the '25 Cshafts.

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

Frank: Around here during stock outboard days 1950s to 1983 the Merc 20H crankshaft became a real sore spot due to breakage of the top throw or crankshaft neck with some people shedding the flywheels and some times breaking the crankcases when the crankshaft separated. I converted several Merc Mark 25 cranks to Merc 20H specs on the center main bearing and they lasted but who knows for how long as the frequency of racing declined over the years anyway. The last 20H crankshaft here that broke was in 1983.

Thanks for the info. :)

[Aeroliner]

The Mark 25 crank came in two versions. Some had the babbit center main and others were 20-H style. Has anyone tried the babbit bearing style in a looper. They are not cut down for the rollers. I have a couple cranks thought I might try it.

Alan

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

The versions we changed were the babbit Mark 25 cranks. We got them re-machined re-ground to Mark 20H specs. They were locally heat treated and used in the 20Hs. No breaknage since on any of them afterward when they were run. All still in the motors they were installed in. The heat treating looked weird as the crank was already re-ground and the heat treating left a crust on it that easily came off leaving the bearing surface a blue metal color and ready to use. Back then the re-gring was $30.00 and the heat treating was an additional $40.00 and that was in the early 1980s.