Fastest Run By A Quincy Flathead 6 cylinder?

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

Is there anything to the story that no one has ever found out just how fast a Quincy Flathead 6 cylinder could go on a hydro because no one ever kept the throttle down long enough and far enough flat out to find out?

[Gene East]

John, I don't think I've ever seen a 6 looper held open long enough to max out on speed.

Have you ever seen one run???

Squeeze the throttle and the torque is so powerful that it TWISTS the left sponson off the water.

Just sit back,close your eyes and imagine how sweet it sounded when several of those engines were singing in concert!

[Bill Van Steenwyk]

The fastest I ever saw one run was at Alexandria, La, in the 70's, can't remember the exact date. It was the same time when Waldman set the 114 MPH Kilo record for "D" Hydro. Jerry Peterson ran one thru at a two way average of about 107 I think. It was not as fast as Waldmans "D" but it also sounded like it had a lot more left, but he ran out of Kilo trap before it reached its potental. Either that or he just did what was neccessary to get the record. Either way, that sound was probably to blame for some small percentage of my hearing I don't have any more.

The boat was quite long, possibly a Marchetti, I dont remember that either, but a very big boat for the time. In my memory it seemed to be 13-14 ft long, and as Gene said, the 6 would really torque a boat.

Waldmans D was also very impressive, possible more so. It was faster for one thing, plus that was the year all the Flatheads were running loads of Nitro, and he would just basically idle up to the start of the traps, and then punch it. It accelerated so hard that it was at top speed in no time and distance. Then he would let off and very slowly turn around, approach the traps and punch it again. No big run at the traps at all to attain that 114 mph speed. That is why it impressed me more than the 6. I remember that Carl Rylee, the referee, absolutely did not believe that Jerry could run that fast in a Kilo with that boat, disallowed the first runs, and demanded that he go out and do it again, or the record would not be accredited. He got back in, did it again, and when he came back in that time, according to what I later heard, told Rylee if any more runs were required, Rylee could do it (drive it) himself, as that was all he (Waldman) was going to do.
Perhaps Gene East could verify that part of the story. I can very easily believe it, as Carl was God, or thought so, at the Alexandria race course.

[Original Looper 1]

Bill,

I read your post with interest. I don't want to split hairs, but here is a copy of the official NOA Certified Record showing that Jerry Waldman set the D Pro (alky) Hydro record at Alexandria, Louisiana, on October 18, 1971 at a straight-a-way speed of 116.883 mph. This copy was signed by then Executive Director of the NOA, Claude Fox.

I was with my dad, O. F. Christner, in 1971 when he got the phone call from a very excited Jerry Waldman regarding the record. Jerry also told my dad that on one of the runs that he got a longer start on, Jerry saw the speedometer go over 130 mph before the boat became literally airborne and totally out of Jerry's control for some time before it obviously set back down. That record was set with a 11 ft 6 in kneel down Marchetti hydro WOW.

As to the rumors regarding nitro used by Jerry while setting this record, I will go on record, based on what both Jerry Waldman and my father told me, that this record was set strictly running methanol and castor. Absolutely no nitro.

Yes, Quincy Welding was experimenting with nitro on some of the Loopers racing at that time. If your memory was different from mine, so be it, but I stand by what Jerry and O. F. personally told me regarding that record.

I went to the regular Alex races in 1971 with dad and I remember we were trying to make nitro work as the fast Konigs were already running it. We had a lot of problems with the nitro burning and sticking pistons. Looking back, with my current knowledge that I gained with many hours of dyno time on engines in the 70's and 80's with my dad, I now realize what we were doing wrong back then. It's always easier to look back, Bill.

Keep posting here at BRF. I really enjoy the manner in which you articulate your stories.

Your friend,

Paul A Christner


ps: As to the question of has a 6 cyl Looper ever been run at full throttle for strictly a straight-a-way record with a non-competition racing set up, the answer is I don't believe so. Based on the horsepower, current propeller technology and raceboat development, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see high 140's to mid 150's (mph) as a speed. That really do have that much torque and horsepower.

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

Gene:

In my home town, Selkirk there was the Red River space to do it. We saw the transition in the later 1960s from the Quincy-Merc Deflectors to the Flatheads 2s, 4s & 6s. In our local stock outboard classes changes were few already. My recollection was that there were even some Kongs around with pipes that looked like something off 18 wheeler highway tractors too as well as what I would come to know as early expansion chamber pipes.

For speed runs they would come from the south going north starting their run just north of the Red River bridge winding up fully through a little over 2/3rds of a mile to the last turn bouys in the north end of the oval course and they would then make a slow turn around not far past the northern most bouys to return south to their run start area and try it again if they wanted to, testing time permitted.

The 2, 4 and 6 Flatheads which were not plentiful at that point, the sixes least of all and just booted past their counterpart deflectors time after time during any line up (2 boats at a time and not necessarily the same class or raceboat) speed run north. The Anzanis and Harrisons were still cooking in A and B and there were always a lot of As and Bs so it was interesting seeing all them doing their thing with the new Flatheads As and Bs doing their thing with them. They, the As and Bs always got more attention than the C Alkys did because the engines were so diverse and sounded and looked so different from each other.

Some of the A and B runs just amazed teams with larger engines/classes seeing such small things going so fast. The roars and racing of class Ds and Fs both 4s and 6s in Deflectors and Flatheads always brought people to their feet for the entire heats they ran. I have no memory on how fast the speed runs were speed wise but speed and lap timings were going on of some sort by various individuals and officials with boards and several stop watches on a very well measured and bouyed course.

When you see a 6 Flathead just squirt past a 6 Merc Deflector Alky and they were the fastest boats there, sometimes 2 to 3 six banger Deflectors against a couple of Flathead 6s and a couple of Flathead & Deflector Merc 44 cube Fs that was just plain fast. Watching a Flathead 6 outspeeding a 44 cube Flathead class F at the end of the straights was amazing as the Flathead 44 class Fs would be faster out of the turns until 2/3 rds down the straights where the Flathead 6 would pull up and then just barely pass the Flathead 4, then they would amost immediately have the next turn to contend with seconds later. It was dueling.

No one with a Flathead 6 ever made prolonged runs spanning too far outside the bridge on the south as a start to anything past the last turn bouy. We did hear that they could bat past 100mph though. There was an understanding about the distances limits stated at drivers meetings as there were pleasure boats anchored outside the extreme ends of the race course enjoying their view monitored by harbour police in their boats.

I have asked others over the years about Flathead sixes doing all out prolonged speed runs for "topped out" speed but all I ever got was comments about the drivers loosing their nerves trying to do it because the speeds produced too wild a ride for their drivers. Surely those engines could have done in the 150+ mile per hour range with the right kind of hydro?

[Bill Van Steenwyk]

Good evening Paul:

Re your splitting hairs comment:

Your documentation is certainly better than my memory, although if you only loose 2.8 MPH from your memory in 37 years, more power to you.

Also I think you may be a little too sensitive about my comments about the usage of nitro. If you will notice, I did NOT say that Jerry used nitro on his run, merely that its usage was widespread in Flatheads at that time, at the Flathead factory's urging. I have personal knowledge of that as I talked to your dad about using in my engines and decided not to. I suppose you could say that my use of the word "all" in my comments meant he was using it also, but I have no certain knowledge of that ONE WAY OR THE OTHER. I will certainly admit that the word "all" in that context was a poor choice.
I do know at that time, as you relate, that nitro was being touted as a way to beat the fast Konigs, and a large number of Flathead users, including our mutual friend Phil Howard was using and experimenting with it. Again, I have personal knowledge of that as I had both a C and D flathead at the time and was also encouraged to try it as a way to get more power and consequently speed out of my engines. I declined, as I was having enough problems keeping them together as it was, and saw the problems other racers with Flatheads that were trying nitro were having as you relate. I almost was ready to take Stan Leavendusky Sr., as a deduction on my tax return as a dependent, with all the dollars I was depositing with him to keep them running. I finally solved the proplem (that I could not afford) by purchasing first a D and then a C Konig. They worked out to be both faster and more dependable, at that time, for me.

Nitro was legal at that time, and could be used or not depending on the choice of the driver/owner. I do stand by my statement that I have NEVER seen a D Flathead accelerate like that one did, starting from a very low speed just before the traps and achieving the speed it did with no more run than it had. If your Father said it was straight methanol, I certainly won't argue the point. Unfortunately neither he or Jerry is available to clear up the matter. The record set, whether 114 or 116.8 was a great achievement for that time, and what they used in the tank is really not a point of contention with me, now or then. I mentioned it in context with the great achievement that it (the record) was, in that time frame and the attempts to make motors (flatheads) perform better, especially with the short run up to the traps. Perhaps I was "assuming" a little, but knowing Waldman's close association with your Dad and Quincy Welding, that would not be an assumption wrongly made, by anyone around boat racing at that time,


That was also the first time I had ever seen a boat set up for a Kilo run, and after the run I went down and looked at the boat and motor combination. The lower unit looked to be a Quicksilver, reshaped with a whole different look, and the motor was kicked under so far the point of the lower unit was almost touching the bottom of the boat quite a ways forward of the transom.

If I was a couple of MPH off, so be it, I was there and certainly saw history made with that run and subsequent record. Would still be interesting to know if there really was a "tiger in the tank", no matter what you heard. WHETHER THERE WAS OR NOT IT DOES NOT DIMINISH THE ACCOMPLISHMENT, especially all these years later, and that was the point and the thrust of my post.

[fbref5269]

hi all,

as i have been restoring the loopers and now a few quincy zs i've heard a lot of stories about jerry waldman. i am courious about the gear ratios he used. i've been told he used the d quicky lower units on his engines that had a modified shape to them and used 15/16 gears. i have been told he would really accelerate out of the turns. over the summer i purchased some items from larry latta's estate that included several items larry bought from jerry's estate. some of the items included several spray shields and d quicky gear sets. the gears included a set of 15/16 gears and 13/16 gears. these gears are on d quicky prop shafts.

up for discussion..... has anyone heard of the 13/16 ratios? could thses gears be used on a unit for a kilo run? anyone ever use them.

frank

[Tim Chance]

I rode with Wayne Walgrave at the Nationals one time in F Runabout with his six-cylinder Flathead. Bruce Nicholson was the winner with a Konig and we finished second. The six had miles-and-miles per hour top end but Bruce could get through the corners much faster.

At the end of the straightaway we were going as fast as it would go; and Wayne never backed off. I can only assume that he never backed off when he had that motor on a hydro either.

[deanwilson]

In 1972 or 1973 my dad drove Larry Latta's for an average 109, just a few tenths under 110 at Kaukauna, WI. This was with the competition set-up since they wanted to get a baseline on the first run. They used a 14' Byers that was built for the weight rules. As the story goes, the wind was soo bad the chop was about 2'. The runs are some evidence as he went down wind in the 115's and into the wind in the 104's, thus the average. They never made another run. Don't remember why, I was only about 12 yrs old.

About 1979, after dad bought the bought, Ed Karelson saw it run at Parker, AZ and estimated that he could build a boat for it to run in the 130's. So Paul's estimate is probably accurate.

[F-12]

I always heard that the top speed was found on a warm evening in Minnesota. I think Wayne Walgrave told me the top speed is several seconds after you fill your shorts. Could be wrong...........but it sounds like the truth.

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

In 1981 at Detroit Lakes, Minnesota there was a mixed catagory and classes weekend race with Modifieds, Alkys and Inboards. Wayne Walgrave turned up with a pickelfork tunnel hull with an F Alky Quincy Flathead on it and after some ignition teething problems had it out on the water sorting it out but I gather not with the success they were looking for. Then the weather didn't cooperate fully the rest of that weekend either. That picture of that raceboat with the F Flathead on its trailer is on a historical thread here on one the BRF pages for view.

[Gene East]

As far as Gerry Waldman using nitro I don't remember him ever doing so and he always pitted very close to us.

I can tell you this, the year we TRIED to run nitro, my ex-wife came to Alex with me in my personal car.

I did not ride in the Buick wagon that pulled the big yellow trailer.

We took 7 motors to Alex that year and blew up 21.

Larry Latta was the only person I knew who ever had any luck running nitro in our engines.

I think my ex thought I had a girlfriend in Alex, but she got the message that we worked at the races and didn't party all night when we sent her out to find burgers for us at 2:00 am while we were rebuilding motors in the hotel room.

SHE WAS NOT THERE THE YEAR GERRY SET THE D RECORD!

Hopefully that answers that question!!

I remember the day he broke the D-Hydro record, but I did not see the run.

We (Quincy Welding) did not run for any records that day but we stopped by the lake on our way home.

We asked Phil Wagner (I think it was Phil) how things were going.

He said, "Gerry just ran 117".

I asked "In the F"?

Phil said "No, the D"!

Jim, Jack, Mark and I were disappointed that we missed such an historic run.

We should have skipped breakfast that morning!

[Bill Van Steenwyk]

Hi Gene:

Where in the world did she find burgers that time of nite?? Best I remember about that time frame (year) in Alex, you could still find plenty of booze, but food was hard to come by. Maybe that was just an excuse to get rid of her for awhile.

One of the funniest (not at the time) and also the most memorable times Eileen and I ever had at a boat race occured in the mid 70's in Alex. We had been out fairly late partying with Ray Hardy and his wife or girlfriend at the time, and Butch Leavendusky and Tom Berry from Kansas City. We were in a little hole in the wall bar just down the street from the Holiday Inn where we always stayed. Eileen and I had our fill and I needed to test the next morning, so we left and went back to the Motel.

About two hours later I woke to a pounding on the door. It was about three in the morning by that time and knowing my "friends" like I did,I was very hesitant to open the door. I looked thru the security spyhole in the door, and Butch and Tom Berry were standing in the hall demanding I open the door because supposedly Ray Hardy had gotten drunk and "disturbed the peace" at the bar by not leaving when they were trying to close the place. Long story short (according to Butch) the cops hauled Ray off to the jail and they did not have enough money to get him out and needed more so they could go back and get him. Knowing Ray as I did ,ad knowing he was very capable of pulling this type of trick, I opened the door to give them the 50 bucks or whatever it was they said they needed. That is where I made the BIG mistake. Ray, who had been out of sight down the hall, and Butch and Tom all came running in my room with wastepaper baskets filled with ice water. They threw on me as I was standing in the room, and to keep from being drenched again, I jumped in bed, believing they would not throw ice water in the bed where Eileen was. WRONG. They emptied the two remaining containers and ran back out of the room, laughing and acting like drunk boat racers do sometimes. Well there we were, both of us and the bed also soaked with ice water. I called the desk and tried to get some dry sheets but at 3 in the morning the laundry room was locked and we could get no help. We ended up in the parking lot of the motel in our car and spent a very uncormfortable rest of the night.

The next morning about 10 or 11 o'clock, they finally showed up in the pits, not remembering just exactly what happened, but knowing that Eileen and I were probably a little unhappy with them for some reason or another. She and I had already discussed our revenge, and after they showed up, she left and went to the motel where Tom and Butch were staying. She conned the desk clerk by saying she was Tom's wife and got a key to their room. She went in their room and packed up all the clothes she could find and other stuff, and then went out to the airport in Alex. She went to the Delta counter and by showing her airline ID was able to get what is called an Interline bag tag that is used to check bags from one airline to another. It shows flight numbers and city codes on it. You wouldn't be able to do this in this day and time with all the security nowadays, but back then it was no problem. She had the suitcases hidden in our trunk and later on that morning came back out to the lake and very sweetly went to Butch and Tom and told them that she "never got mad, just always got even", and then gave them the bag tags showing their bags had been sent to Aukland, New Zealand. She let them stew for the better part of the day, and of course they went back to the motel and couldn't find the bags and with the bag tags from Delta they were sure that the bags were on the way half way around the world.

I know from personal experience since then,that she didn't break them of playing pratical jokes, but we never got ice water poured on in the middle of the nite again.

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

The stories are typical of the zany bunch boat racers can be. Thing is all one has to do is look at Joe Michilini's Flathead six with 9 carbs and still the question stares you in the face, just how fast did that thing or Bruce Summers flatheads go, they were on big hydros?? There were more than a couple of dozen of those things tearing up the water..........:)

[Gene East]

Only one way to find out.

Find and restore one of these magnificent beasts, slap it on a big boat, find some young driver with big balls and a small brain and turn him loose!

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

It would be nice to see and run for a record that is based on a class F - 60 cube 6 Flathead that goes like all the hi-tech V-6s and V-8s monsters it did take to break outboard records. Imagine, older, smaller technology (Richard's excepted recreations) going for a record. :)

Sounds like something that could be done and proven. There is just too much engine with the stories not to see an effort organized and done.

What about the Flathead 44 cube class F - 4 bangers? Where there any remarkable single runs that made peoples hair stand on edge?

Finally, were there any Quincy 4 cylinder Flatheads ever built that were the 60 cubic inch size that would have used Merc 650 - 4 cylinder crankand rods assemblies types? There were the Quincy 99s as shown parked on some stock fishing boat made to scare someone off the local lake....:)

[Ron Hill]

If anyone has noticed, here at BRF, I FREQENTLY have IDEAS....Sometime about 1984, I decided we should have KILO Trials between Christmas and New Years at Parker. I had several reasons for this HAIRBRAIN IDEA...One, I was selling a lot of MOD VP propellers and APBA didn't even have a class called MOD VP, nor did they want no stinking MODIFIED Fishing Motor Class...and I thought if I had the RECORD for MOD VP, I'd sell more props...and I did.

Two, Suzuki had given me a 65 HP Motor and Seperits Inflatables had given me a boat....So, I wanted to set two records...So, with my brain and other's work, we put on KILOS at Parker.

Jim McKean and Denny Henderson came from Texas, but most were California, Region 12 guys...

McKean and Henderson actually got UIM records, MY STARTER WIFE established an inflatable record...We registered her as an F Hydro...She went 48.352 in a Vee Hull with a 65 Suzuki.... She went 47 something with me riding behind her screaming all the way...

I went 89 something in my MOD VP and got bitched at by McKean for making the river rough...I reminded him, "I PUT THE F...ING KILOS ON and I'd make the water rough if I wanted to".....we weren't really angry....just sort of...

Anyway, Dean Wilson, Sr. who had just bought a Quincy Six Looper from, I think, Larry Latta...Dean fires this looper six off, he's got this parachute, Lifeline Jacket, on and he starts to head for the entrance of the kilo...This Quincy six, first one I'd seen on a hydro, just kept gaining RPM's and gaining.....Now, keep in mind, McKean had just gone like 115 in a 500 CC or something and 115 looked fast.........BUT Dean's LOOPER looked and sounded twice as fast, about the time he hit the kilo entrance, I figure he was doing 125 and I figured he was going to kill himself and leave his wife and four boys, (parachute or no parachute) he backed her down and turned to start another pass...I was praying for the engine to stop...

He made another run at it, gaining, gaining...both speed and RPM....I swear the boat was on the prop only and I knew he could never make the kilo...He shut her down again...Again I PRAYED for that Looper to quit and I don't pry often....but when I do I want ACTION....

He made one more attempt and parked it ( I gave Dean a lot of credit, the boat was way too small and I think it might have been a 14 footer)....when Dean shut that LOOPER down, I don't think one person at the KILOS made a sound. We'd seen something that SCARED US ALL. We were happy Dean was back in the pits and in one piece.......Seemed to me, if that LOOPER was put on Gray Garbrecht's Karlesen Kilo boat (Current World Record Holder...Lee Davies/Bob Wartinger)...That Looper would break the OUTBOARD Speed Record...

I don't think Dean ever ran the Looper again, if he did I don't recall..89 in a 21 foot Eliminator with a 235 Evinrude was easy...Dean doing over 125 on a piece of plywood was heart stopping....

The kilos were fun, weather was perfect...New Years in Havasu was wild...Club lost money... www.HillMarine.com (http://www.HillMarine.com) covered the loses...we never did it again!!!!

So, how fast will a Quincy SIX Looper go??? Faster than anyone will believe....

[MN1]

This man tried the Kilos too!
http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm315/MN392/Airmarine.jpg
Mark N

[Bill Van Steenwyk]

Maybe Jerry Peterson will see this and chime in. He, as previously mentioned, did do an official Kilo run at Alex with a Looper 6, and his impressions/memories could add a lot to this discussion, not only about that run but a lot about the six cylinder. I can't remember if he has ever posted here, but maybe if someone has his number they could get him involved.

By the way, sorry to kind of hijack the thread with the ice water story, but it was pretty funny, at the same place in the same time frame, even if Eileen and I were on the wrong end.

[Frank Volker]

I recall Jerry saying that he found the biggest D prop he had and ran an "almost competition" setup when he set the record. As I recall, he had one of the very early sets of Gen III megaphones and he used water injection to pull the big prop through the low RPM range. I spoke with him about it just before the Hot Springs race and he said he was still accelerating at the end of the run, and that he felt like he could almost use that same setup on the race course.

I don't recall Jerry or Bobby (Hering) ever running nitro; the heads on their engines were not CC'd out for that.

Frank V.

[Mark75H]

There were the Quincy 99s as shown parked on some stock fishing boat made to scare someone off the local lake....:)

No the boat was O.F.'s test buck and the big loopers were 89's not 99's.


The loopers aren't even close to the power used to set the 176+ record, I think Paul's estimate is probably right, too.

The question about 60 ci 4's is a good one, as would be a question about 49 ci 4's ... Merc submitted some specs to Claude Fox in 1968 for a 49 ci motor that had a detachable head and differed in some other ways from production Mercs made in that era.

[Ron Hill]

Old Man Hutchen, Bill Sr., ran nitro in his "A" Looper...As he'd always "FLUSH" the motor with gas and oil after the race...run her on dry land to get the nitro out....Hutch said it was the only way to keep with Waldman and Herring....

I know for a fact harry Bartolomei ran nitro in the Konigs he had, but never in MY (HIS) "A" Looper or his "B" either...

I doubt if Bobby Herring or Jerry Waldman ever used nitro. They were fast enough without it....

[Gene East]

No one did more water testing and dyno testing during the hey days at Quincy Welding than Frank Volker.

He wore out a couple of dynos!

Like all of us at Quincy Welding, Frank had a great respect for Gerry Waldman.

If you choose not to accept MY statement that Gerry Waldman's successes came from his incredible ability and not out of a can of nitro, certainly you should accept Frank's statement.

I would also like to rebuff the rumours that Quincy Welding provided Gerry Waldman and Bob Hering with engines that were not available to other customers.

THAT SIMPLY IS PURE B.S.

Frank will tell you truthfully that Gerry's motors never pulled more H.P. on the dyno than the norm.

Gerry Waldman was the best set up man and the gutsiest driver I ever knew. He had the ability to put the H.P. to the water.

Races are not won on the dyno!

I'm proud to have had the honor of calling Gerry Waldman my friend.

[Frank Volker]

Gene, I think for every minute I spent doing on-water testing, Jim Schoch did a month. Jim had an incredible feel for engine, boat, and/or prop changes. He was like a walking dynamometer with a built-in accelerometer. Truly incredible.

You are on the money about Gerry and Bobby's (the "golddust twins") engines. There was nothing special done to them. They would usually send everything down to QW maybe once per season for updates. Gerry told me once that he had this recurring nightmare that he would get to QW late to pick up the engines and they would still be sitting there, unpacked, in their shipping crates. So, of course, every time he called about the status of the engines, I would always answer, "What engines?". And every time--without fail-- there was this audible gasp followed by much laughter on both ends. What a great guy.

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

Back in 2001 I spent an afternoon just talking to Elmer Grade in Florida. Though their team ran some Quincy, a lot of Konig and some Yamato, he said if you had a D or F Flathead what would you want a Konig for??? At least the Flatheads stayed together crank and all with good maintennance, not so D or F Konigs. He was dead serious. :)

[Master Oil Racing Team]

Gene...your and Frank's assessment of Gerry's set up and driving abilities are right on the mark. And I never heard of him running nitro either. If he depended on nitro, he would never have finished as many heats as he did. No matter how good a motor man you are, nitro will take its toll.

Gerry was posthumously the winner of the high point hydro driver in his final race. And he didn't even race B Hydro. As Captain of the North Team, he choose his three B's among other drivers because he didn't consider his to be competitive that day. This was at a time when Konigs were ruling that Gerry won C and F hydro among some of the best in the country.

[Bill Van Steenwyk]

For whatever reason, some seem to think I have made light or inferred that the D record set by Gerry Waldman at Alexandria in 1971 was done unfairly or outside the rules. THAT WAS ABSOLUTELY NOT MY INTENT. My post was to relate how impressed I was with the apparent ease (very little run up to the Kilo trap) that he made in setting the record, and to repeat those impressions to anyone not fortunate to have been there to see it. I did not know Gerry well, but my interaction with him, primarily talking to him at the races, and being on the recieving end of gratis AC plugs was great, and I had the utmost admiration for him and his accomplishments, of every kind, not just the Kilo record he set that day that I witnessed. Also anyone who knows or knew Carl Rylee would know if there was ANYTHING that was not above board about the run, Gerry would never have been awarded the record. As you might remember, I related the part of the story about Rylee making him rerun the record attempt, for no other reason that he (Rylee) didn't believe it was possible to go that fast with that boat and motor combination.

Hindsight being 20/20, I probably should not have even mentioned the use of Nitro by anyone at that time in Quincy flatheads, much less in the telling of the the story of the runs I witnessed, but because that was the time frame of Nitro usage in Flatheads (and it was widespread, perhaps not by Gerry but certainly by others and Qunicy themselves as Gene and Paul attested to) I thought it would add something to the story. If anyone thinks that I was purposely besmirching Waldmans memory, YOU ARE WRONG. I was simply telling a story like I remembered it and the other things that were happening with the same type motor he set his record with. As to Gene East's comments about "rumours" that his motors were "better" or different than anyone elses spending money with Quincy. I never said that and have never heard it. I did say that he had a close association with Christner and Quincy, and I doubt anyone could argue with that assesment. I DID NOT say he recieved any special treatment or engines, as I have no knowledge about that. IN MY OPINION, he certainly did extend the useful racing life of the flatheads against the Konigs and keep the Flathead competitive longer than it might have been, if Gerry Waldman had not been setting that boat motor combination up, propeller wise and driver wise. Of that I think there can be little argument.

Whether he used Nitro or not is and was not important to me in the telling of what I saw at Alex that year. IT WAS LEGAL, and if he wanted to or ever did use it or not, personally it would not make the slightest difference to me and my recollection of him and his statue as one of the finest boat racers not only of his time, but ever in the PRO category.

If ANYONE thinks I mentioned it to taint or otherwise make less of his accomplishment that day or ever, you are mistaken. I hope that makes clear my admiration for him and his many accomplishments. If anyone thinks I mentioned it for any other reason, they are badly mistaken.

[Frank Volker]

Bill,
I didn't see even a trace of adversity in your post. In fact, it was great to hear a report and an opinion from someone who was there. This section of forum real estate is all about history, and most of us rely on the accounts of others to get all of the pieces of the historical puzzle to slide into place. Thanks for providing a valuable piece.

Frank

[David_L6]

Only one way to find out.

Find and restore one of these magnificent beasts, slap it on a big boat, find some young driver with big balls and a small brain and turn him loose!


Now there's an idea! :D

[David_L6]

Bill,
I didn't see even a trace of adversity in your post. In fact, it was great to hear a report and an opinion from someone who was there. This section of forum real estate is all about history, and most of us rely on the accounts of others to get all of the pieces of the historical puzzle to slide into place. Thanks for providing a valuable piece.

Frank

I saw nothing wrong with anything you posted either Bill. Thanks for posting and please continue to do so.

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

One thing I have yet to see is small end "nitro droop" or bend on any Merc or Quincy connecting rods to date on any padded block deflector or Flathead that I have restored. They are but a fraction of the representation here of those that worked with them and or raced them when they were the power houses. Amongst the many spare parts I got to choose from nothing like that to look at either. Today I took apart a Harrison 250cc-350cc custom crankshaft that was assembled with class D Konig rods and some version of uncaged big end bearings. Not only do they have serious "nitro droop" but the small ends were starting to fracture and break up too even though the installed Torrington caged needle wrist pin bearings showed no sign of failure themselves. Evidently it ran 30% to 40% nitro in the methanol fueled through its Anzani cast iron block so even big one piece Konig rods have their structural limitations that Quincy or Quincy-Merc didn't?

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

David:

This is a discussion board and thread for good things and good people. To me your neither and teamed up with donkey there, curbman does not help when you already got a perverted involvment with obscene junk you used send out, coupled to some crooked cops who are up to their armpits in trying to conceal and ****** case I am writing about as an author. Your part of that literary work, because you gullible but I would prefer your existance be purely background as opposed to being active and stupid.

I digress here just the once to tell you something. I would prefer you stick to the topic and wise up. You not helping yourself :)

[Gene East]

Mostly personal to Bill Van.

Like Frank I did not mean to imply that you were trying to diminish Gerry Waldman's achievements. I apologize to you if I gave that impression.

Comments were often made suggesting Quincy Welding built special motors for our own racing team and for "pet" customers.

On several occasions Chris had me set up our motor on a customer's boat and then Jim Schoch would beat the customer with his own motor.

I just wanted to set the record straight once and for all.

The original theme of this thread was how fast could a 6 banger go if some one held it open long enough to find out.

It seems we've strayed from the original question.

Once again I'm sorry if you misunderstood what I was saying

[curbman]

You got my attention again, first off you are not an "author" your just a guy from East Selkirk Manitoba who once lived in Calgary and now lives in Winnipeg, get a hold of yourself. I as well as others on the forum are reading this thread and one thing we notice is some very good information coming out on the history of boat racing from people who actually were there to witness it. This is a good thing but then John jumps in yes you John Taylor with nonsense topic introductions that no one chimes in on. John your sick get some help and keep your thoughts to yourself they make no sense to anyone here. John, donkey can't you come up with something better than a 10 year old would.


David:

This is a discussion board and thread for good things and good people. To me your neither and teamed up with donkey there, curbman does not help when you already got a perverted involvment with obscene junk you used send out, coupled to some crooked cops who are up to their armpits in trying to conceal and ****** case I am writing about as an author. Your part of that literary work, because you gullible but I would prefer your existance be purely background as opposed to being active and stupid.

I digress here just the once to tell you something. I would prefer you stick to the topic and wise up. You not helping yourself :)

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

Moderators - This mutt and jeff act that follows people around like a puppy needs to be contolled. It does not become the board when this stuff gets going and goes beyond anything reasonable. They spoil things for everyone and the reputation of the board and that is not g

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

Moderators - This mutt and jeff act that follows people around like a puppy needs to be contolled. It does not become the board when this stuff gets going and goes beyond anything reasonable. They spoil things for everyone and the reputation of the board and that is not good thing for a place that should be respected.

[Bill Van Steenwyk]

Gene, Frank, and David:

Thanks for your gracious comments. Perhaps, as I chided Paul for possibly being overly sensitive, I was being the same. Sometimes when you can't for whatever reason, "do it anymore," you forget a little about when you did, but that was not the case about what I witnessed with Gerry's Kilo run. I can still see in my minds eye him approaching the Kilo traps, and I am still impressed almost 40 years later. I did make an assumption about the possible use of Nitro, and based on other posts, I was mistaken.

We did get off the subject of the 6, but all things considered Gerry's run was still one of the most fantastic I have ever seen, especially considering the time frame, and I like to share some of those moments that I was privileged to see with others. Hopefully Jerry Peterson will chime in about his Looper 6. I sent him a PM to see if we could get him in this discussion. I notice he has never posted on BRF, even though he is a member. I know he has lots to share if he will, or is able to take the time to participate.

Bill

[Ron Hill]

http://www.boatracingfacts.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=124

In case you missed it, we have a fund raiser on brf...

[Master Oil Racing Team]

Hey Bill Van....me neither.:D You just keep on telling your stories. We weren't whacking your knuckles, we were just laying on the praise of a guy who could do things with a boat above and beyond what others thought possible. And anything you could pour into your fuel tank was legal. You know Bill Van that my Dad might have razzed you a little for misunderstanding these posts.;):D Just think about him today and get a big smile on your face.:)

[Gene East]

Bill, I hope you can persuade Jerry Peterson to join us. I remember when he went through the traps in Alex with his 6 deflector. At that time it was the fastest speed ever recorded at Alex, and we all know the looper was faster than the deflector

[RichardKCMo]

Gene, what was the speed?
I would like to know compared to the mods on gas as those SEs seem to be fast specially that big six from Tx.
Richard

[Gene East]

I believe Jerry's speed with the F deflector was 108+. That was a year or 2 before Waldman's amazing run of almost 117.

Personally, I thought Peterson's run looked faster than 108.

I don't believe the Mods today;35-40 years later, come close to that in spite of what some claim.

But speed is relative. The important thing is competition. I enjoy watching a race where 4 or 5 boats; on a short tight course, all have a chance to win even if they are running 15-20 MPH slower than the "Big Boys" claim to be running.

Years ago, boat racing lost a great deal of spectator appeal by going to long, long straight aways and wide sweeping turns for the sake of high speed. Sure, those long high rooster tails are pretty but I believe the spectators want to see action.

As you may suspect, I don't go to drag races;car or boats, for that reason. I love seeing drivers mix it up in the turns. (With respect for everyone's safety, of course).

In any type of racing, "It ain't who's fastest. It's who's firstest"!

Like you Richard, I'd like to see and HEAR more 6 bangers in the SE classes.
My hearing is already shot, so what could it hurt??

[Allen J. Lang]

If I remember right, I heard someone say the the Late Bill Fales ran the traps in NOA at about 107 mph when he blew his 14' DeSilva over backwards breaking his back. I remember Bill telling me that he will never run that rig again without a riding mechanic.
Ye Olde Desert Geezer :cool:

[Bill Van Steenwyk]

I had the good fortune and pleasure of visiting with Jerry on the phone earlier this afternoon for a while, and while it was impossible to get all 37 years since the Kilo's at Alex described earlier in this thread discussed, we did get a good start. Jerry is like I was (and still am to a good degree) when I first started posting on BRF, that is, not real sure about how this all works, but he said he is going to try to chime in from time to time, or at least let me know his impressions and memories of things discussed here, so that they can become part of the history on BRF.

He did mention that his record run thru the Kilo at Alex was done with a strictly competition setup, even to dragging a speedometer pitot tube. He stated that the last time he looked down at the speedometer it was just passing 110 MPH and that was on the run with the wind that was timed at 114 MPH. The other run into the wind was, in his words, "somewhat unsettling" as the boat was getting very loose going into the wind. The two way record set was a little over 108 MPH. He had made several earlier runs that same day with no wind, and they were not as fast.

He also said he does not know where the recollection about a deflector 6 he ran in a Kilo attempt earlier came from, as he never had a deflector 6, only the Looper. Any attempt at a Kilo with a deflector must have been a different driver. He shared many other thoughts about that time frame with me, but those are his stories, not mine, so unless he asks me or others to assist, I will hope he can find the time to participate on this forum and tell them himself. He was one of the top competitors of that time frame, with both Quincy and Konig equipment, so he has lots of experiences to share.

He did say, right at the end of our conversation, that he competed many times in that time frame against Gerry Waldman, usually driving a Konig, when Gerry was driving Flatheads, and was always amazed what Gerry was able to do with, what at that time, were motors on the downside of the horsepower curve, taller and more top heavy, and otherwise disadvantagous against the Konigs of the day. In his opinion, it makes Waldman's, and other drivers of that time who were racing Flatheads and winning races, accomplishments even more impressive than they look today. He said regards that, "if Gerry had been using Konigs the last year or so before his death, all the rest of us might as well have stayed home, he was that great of a driver, set up guy, and all round boat racer." He went on to tell about the time that Gerry won all the Hydro classes at the DePue Nationals, and he competed against him in F hydro with his looper 6 against Waldman's 44. They both were giving it all they had and Jerry finished second to Waldman's first. After the race, Gerry told him "I could hear you squeaking back there". Jerry said he could almost catch him at the end of the straightaway, but there was no way to get around the corner as fast as Waldman because of his set up ability and also the higher center of gravity of the 6 making it top heavy in the corners.

As to how fast a Looper 6 might run held wide open for a long run, he feels he did the best possible at that time when he set his record, with the boats,
(he ran a 13'8" Marchetti) props, and other available equipment of the day.
What I took away from the conversation was that maybe today the Looper 6 could do a little better with the better boats, props, technology available now, but at that time that was about all that was there. I did not ask him what he thought Gerry Waldman would have been able to achieve with the Looper 6 but I will surely do so the next time we talk, and in the mean time that will surely be something to speculate about.

[Gene East]

Glad to hear you got to talk with Jerry; and if you're reading this Jerry, come join us.

We'd all love to hear from you!

[Master Oil Racing Team]

At this point it appears that Gerry waldman and Jerry Peterson were both attempting the records with competition setups, with some tuck as they weren't going to accelerate out of the corners. They knew that they were racing at speeds that equaled or exceeded the kilo records of that time. As has happened before and since, the horsepower of the motors were capable of pushing the boats beyond what they were designed for, and when bigger and modified boats were built, drivers found that they were racing at speeds that were previously on the edge.

What Bill Van told about Jerry finishing second behind Waldman in the 6 VS 4 is what I have also seen. The 6 cylinder looper was an awsome machine. There can never be a better sounding race motor than that. But the courses we ran on were too short and narrow to see just how fast a 6 cylinder looper might have been. The boats at that time would not have been able to handle the speeds for a longer straight, and then shut down for a wide high speed turn. I am of course talking about hydros. The extra weight and ability to move the deck rider around to counteract the high center of gravity worked extremely well in F runabout.

Bill Van...thanks for sharing your talk with Jerry Peterson. I do hope he does chime in with his memories. He was one of the great young superstars I admired when I first started. And it was great to talk to him at the reunion in DePue.

[Bill Van Steenwyk]

Wayne:

Jerry and I discussed setups, Kilo versus competition, and notwithstanding the earlier comments atributed to Gerry Waldman, that he mentioned to someone that the set up he ran to set that D Kilo record, was a "competition" setup, Jerry Peterson went down and looked at Waldman's Kilo setup, just as I described I did also, when Waldman came in from the run and the boat was sitting on the bank. I can't now remember whether it was in Waldman's pit area, or in inspection, but both our memories are the same about the way the engine was sitting on his boat. As I described, it looked as though the tilt pin was completely removed from the clamp bracket assembly, and the tower housing was sitting directly against the transom, with the point of the unit almost touching the bottom of the boat ahead of the transom. In other words, a completely tucked under setup. If that was a "competition setup", and I am not saying it was not AS FAR AS WALDMAN WAS CONCERNED AND THE WAY HE NORMALLY RAN, it did not look like a normal competition setup to Jerry or I,i.e. normal for everybody else, with the propshaft of the unit more or less parallel with the bottom of the boat or SLIGHTLY kicked in or out as was common practice at the time for the way the majority of the boat racers at that time ran their boats.

Just as two people will describe anything differently, the "seeing" is in the eye of the beholder, and that is something both Jerry and I agree about, that Gerry Waldman "saw" things that the rest of us mere mortals could not or did not see as far as props, set up, etc. That is what made him what he was as far as a boat racer, and then the majority of us kind of tagged along after. I am sure it was just not the tucked under deal, but a combination of a lot of factors. Maybe one day Bobby Hering can or will shed some light on the matter. Who better than his racing partner.

[Bill Van Steenwyk]

What Wayne mentioned in his post about the awesome sound of a Looper 6 is what I believe to be one of the main reasons for the "mystique" that surrounds this engine. I remember going to DePue in the late 60's and AT LEAST 5 or more miles away, probably 10, you could hear that "wail" when one was running. There has never been anything like that sound, before or since.

I never ran F Hydro, but I can only imagine what it must have been like to being overtaken by one of those monsters. If by luck you got out front of one on the start, you knew they were probably going to pull up on your rear on one straight- a -way or another, and to hear that sound coming up behind you must have been something. Probably best described as "BE AFRAID, BE VERY AFRAID".

I sure hope somebody finally gets that recording of one on BRF. The site will never be completely perfect till that happens.

[Master Oil Racing Team]

What I was referring to Bill Van was that Gerry Waldman nor Jerry Peterson had trick lower units, special boats, extended transoms, jacked up motors with remote water pickups, or anything like that. They used the same boats and motors they race with but just some adjustments so they could go as fast as they could in a straight line without blowing over. That is what I understood they did in their attempt at the kilo. There was not enough room at Alex to do the trick stuff, and as fast as they were running they knew they were close enough already to the records. In my book, that is very cool, and to me your observations were right in line with the way the McKeans set their boats up, but with motors maybe a little deeper.

[Bill Van Steenwyk]

Wayne:

I understand now what you were getting at when you were more descriptive about "trick setups". Gerrys was not at all "trick" in that sense of the word, like some of the pictured lower units that stick out way behind the boat, etc. The only thing you could describe as trick possibly, was the way the Quicksilver lower unit was shaped. I never saw any of the units that he ran at DePue or elsewhere for example, so I don't know about that as I never looked before or after. The unit he had on that day looked to be a standard quicksilver with material (aluminum I suppose) added to the front of the skeg above and below the torpedo portion of the unit. It was not straight but somewhat curved like a sickle blade, sort of a cresent shape. Aside from the extreme tuck under angle, that was all I noticed. As you said, with those type competiton setups, the records set in that time frame are all the more impressive. If boat racing excites you, all that were racing in those years were privliged to witness those runs.

[Gene East]

I stand corrected.

In an earlier post I said Jerry Peterson once held the record for the fastest time ever recorded at Alex with a 6 deflector.

As Bill stated later following a phone call with Jerry the motor was a 6 looper.
Sorry for the error. All of us who are of that vintage are in the 60-70 year old range. Some of our old racing buddies are well past that age. An occasional "senior moment" is bound to creep in from time to time.

Thanks for correcting mine!

Our sport of alky burning outboards from the 50's through the 70's was far more popular than it is today. Major races often required finishing first or second in qualifying heats to enter the finals.

Unfortunately, with the exception of Wayne Baldwin and Tim Chance, there isn't a lot of written history of our sport. Thanks to both you guys for sharing your information through forums like BRF. Without it we would have to rely totally on the memories of "old farts" like Bill and me.

I did receive an email last night from Jerry Peterson. He told me that he has been following BRF for about 2 years now and enjoys doing so. Jerry did say he doesn't type as fast as he drove a boat so he's been reluctant to post here.

Jerry, thanks for your email, but please join us on this forum. There's no starting gun and no checkerred flag. Just type at your own speed and nobody knows the difference.

[Frank Volker]

For some reason, I can't recall Gerry's 4-cyl setups, but I do recall that both Bob and Gerry's setups for 'A' and 'B' were always tucked under much more than anything we (QW) or most guys ran. With that said, I'm sure when Gerry set the 'D' record, that his setup differed somewhat from a competition setup. This is probably why he said "almost competition", as I stated in my post.

[Tim Chance]

Unfortunately, with the exception of Wayne Baldwin and Tim Chance, there isn't a lot of written history of our sport.


I'll go back and see if I have anything. I don't think I'll have anything on Gerry, but I was there in Burlington when Bill Fales blew over in his runabout.

[RichardKCMo]

Hope to read some facts from yrs. gone by. I've been called a wannabe on occassion , probly right , have missed some races as a spectator.
Look forward to hearing (THIS AIN'T No S***T Stories.
RichardKCMo

[Master Oil Racing Team]

I think we all pretty much agree on Gerry's run. What you say about "almost competition" to me Frank means it was basically Gerry's set up, but when you have to wind it up so much down a long...long straight and start hearing and feeling sensations you don't get in the heat of the battle it makes it an almost competition set up. He didn't have to look inside or over his shoulder as he approached a turn and didn't have to worry about accelerating out of the turn to keep another boat on his hip. The main concern was to keep enough plywood friction free...the motor screaming, breathing, and liking it...the lower unit taking all that power and transferring it to a prop that GERRY thought would get him to the end of the traps at the speed he hoped for without breaking. To do that he took what he knew his rig could do under racing conditions and made adjustments for a one man, two bouy long competition race against the clock.:cool:

[RichardKCMo]

If anyone Has ever Raced at Long Bitch They know everything you just said is true, except it lasts for several laps. Seperates winners and losers fast. thanks for the input. Keep it coming.
RichardKCMo.

[Jerry Peterson]

Gene,I dont think you were having a real senoir moment about the deflector 6
The day we set the F hydro record at Alex with our Flathead 6,Charley Redmond of Savannah,Ga. made several impressive passes with his delector 6.
That guy was fast and made beautifull music with his Quincy.

[Bill Van Steenwyk]

Really happy to see you made it on, especially after our long talk yesterday afternoon. As soon as we hung up, I thought of about a dozen other things I wanted to ask and tell you.

Now you are an offficial member of the "old fart, hunt and peck group."
I look forward, as I know the rest that post here do, to hearing, as the announcer on the Lone Ranger used to say, some "stirring tales of yesteryear"

At least I think that was the Lone Ranger. I do know for sure it was the Shadow that pressed his wrist. If nothing else, this will help pass the time for you on those cold Minnesota winter evenings.

[Gene East]

Welcome Jerry!!!!

[Master Oil Racing Team]

Glad to hear from you Jerry. It was great visiting with you at DePue. Looking forward to your stories.:cool:

Gene....not to be critical, but there is a LOT of written history on alky racing in the 50's and 60's. By the time I started it was very scarce, but looking at the magazines that Johnny Dortch sent me I was amazed at how much coverage there was. I was surprised to see that many of the guys I raced with went back so far. Hydroplanes Quarterly was the best publication for us because of the solid, in-depth coverage. But Tim Chance had already been putting together pieces in previous publications prior to publishing HQ. I have all the magazines that Johnny sent me organized by publication, month and year, but until I get some book shelves up to be able to keep them and my racing pictures more organized, I won't be doing too much scanning on them. I'm not a real writer. I just had to start writing in order to get my pictures published in Powerboat. I must say it was fun though.

Jerry, I think I still have your contact information, but I'm not sure. Joe Rome also types pretty slow so you will notice his posts are short and to the point. I talk to Joe just about every day and we cover many subjects. Sometimes Joe tells me things I had forgotten about and it is usually something that brings up some laughs. What I do a lot with Joe is get my memory refreshed, then I post it on BRF. Ron also does that with some of his friends. So if you have anything that takes time in telling that you want to get out here and don't want to be sitting at the keyboard for so long, give me a pm and we'll get together.

[Danny Pigott]

I think that Charley Redmond still has that 6 today an a D looper.

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

Back in the early 1960s, Minnesota class F Alky cabover hydro G-711 with a 6 piped Quincy-Merc Deflector was really roaring around race courses. The first time I saw a Quincy Flathead 6 banger on water here G-711 was out there with him competing as Deflector versus the Flathead. It was very much a new technology versus old in those races that was well explained by announcers to the spectators as well as the outcome of the races with more and more Flatheads dominating from that later 1960s era onward. The noise they put up was just as exciting as the racing, 10 to 12 boats per heat were common.

[Tim Chance]

Back in the early 1960s, Minnesota class F Alky cabover hydro G-711 with a 6 piped Quincy-Merc Deflector was really roaring around race courses. The first time I saw a Quincy Flathead 6 banger on water here G-711 was out there with him competing as Deflector versus the Flathead. It was very much a new technology versus old in those races that was well explained by announcers to the spectators as well as the outcome of the races with more and more Flatheads dominating from that later 1960s era onward. The noise they put up was just as exciting as the racing, 10 to 12 boats per heat were common.

That would be Del Compton, an engineer for Honeywell from Minneapolis with an alcohol burning 75-H on a Wilson (Rice Lake, Wisconsin) Hydro.

[Gene East]

I remember Charlie Redmond. We met in 1963 or 1964 at Lake Spivey, Atlanta, Ga. NOA World Championships.

Jim Schoch had just finished first in D-Hydro and Charlie was second.

Unfortunately when the inspectors lifted Jim onto the scales he was 4# light.
Charlie caught me trying to pile wrenches in the boat to make weight.

Needless to say Charlie wasn't too happy about that because Jim's disqualification made Charlie World Champion.

I don't believe 4# would have made a difference, but rules are rules.

Congratulations on your Championship Charlie, even if I am more than 40 years late!

[David_L6]

.....caught Me Trying To Pile Wrenches In The Boat To Make Weight.



Now that's funny! :D:D:D

[Gene East]

Charlie wasn't laughing!!

[deanwilson]

I recently spoke to Bill Rucker Jr, who has been following this thread with great interest. He reminded me that the current 1100H Kilo record is 122mph set in 1983 by a Lon Stevens 6 deflector. Which reminded me of the year Bill Sr (his dad) was first and Dean Sr (my dad) was second at DePue in 1100H. I think it was 1973, probably Wayne knows for sure. The last Stevens motor I saw race was probably 5+ years ago on Paul Fuschlin 1100R, still hauled the mail.

[Mark75H]

I see one every time I look over my shoulder :)

[David_L6]

Stevens deflector. I see one every time I look over my shoulder :)

Rub it in why don't you! ;)

All I'm going to see when I look over my shoulder is a heavy chunk of poorly cast aluminum with 3 big holes in it and a 10 pound flywheel on top of it. :o It may run as fast as yours but it sure won't sound as good.

[Master Oil Racing Team]

I didn't go to DePue in 1973 Dean, but I think I can get my hands on the results.

[Master Oil Racing Team]

OK Dean...here's the story. It was 1973. Bill Rucker, Sr. won both heats. Your Dad was very close on his heels which got him second place overall. He got behind Dan Kirts in the second heat and couldn't get around. I can't imagine that......not being able to get around Dan Kirts.;):D. The article didn't say how they finished in their other respective heats, but they both had the same number of points. Probably swapping third place finishes. Not only did they have the same number of points, but they had identical overall times. It fell to who had the fastest heat, and that was your Dad in the first heat, so he got second and Dan third.

[David_L6]

Not only did they have the same number of points, but they had identical overall times. It fell to who had the fastest heat...

Now that had to have been a heck of a boat race to see! :cool:

[deanwilson]

Very cool to know, thanks Wayne!
I also was not there that year...was at camp or some such thing.

I saw those kind of races all summer though and there was usually 2-3 Kirts on 1100H, including Mel, probably the toughest.

[Joe J]

Dean:

For a 50 year old engine, it is still a good ride, even if I don't get to hold onto the throttle.

Joe


The last Stevens motor I saw race was probably 5+ years ago on Paul Fuschlin 1100R, still hauled the mail.

[Karen Cadle]

What Wayne mentioned in his post about the awesome sound of a Looper 6 is what I believe to be one of the main reasons for the "mystique" that surrounds this engine. I remember going to DePue in the late 60's and AT LEAST 5 or more miles away, probably 10, you could hear that "wail" when one was running. There has never been anything like that sound, before or since.

I never ran F Hydro, but I can only imagine what it must have been like to being overtaken by one of those monsters. If by luck you got out front of one on the start, you knew they were probably going to pull up on your rear on one straight- a -way or another, and to hear that sound coming up behind you must have been something. Probably best described as "BE AFRAID, BE VERY AFRAID".

I sure hope somebody finally gets that recording of one on BRF. The site will never be completely perfect till that happens.


Bill -- not sure if we know each other, but likely our paths have likely crossed, as Gene East would attest to.

Re: An open stack merc 6 banger... I can not tell you how many times that is how I found my way to the race course at DePue as I drove from Macomb. For more than "a couple of years" I pulled V-7 to DePue behind a green Pontiac Station Wagon; prior to that I was usually sleeping in the back of the blue Chrysler "box" station wagon.

From 1960 "something", until 1975 I witness many Ross Gibson/Bill Collins "blow ups"... due to a "too hot" fuel mixture... but Gene East, Frank Volker, Jack Kugler, Tim Chance, Sam Hemp will say "it sure enough is so"

Like everyone else in this "thread" I just want to hear an open stack 6 banger merc one more time...

Gentlemen... you all bring something to this "table"... now, find the enging and let's "start the engine", please.

sis

~sis

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

Everything said about the Flathead 6 and just how impressive it looks and there is no sound like it is expressing the true nature of it racing. In their heydays the class F Flathead 4s and 6s dueling and sounds burned into onlookers memories.

[Karen Cadle]

Everything said about the Flathead 6 and just how impressive it looks and there is no sound like it is expressing the true nature of it racing. In their heydays the class F Flathead 4s and 6s dueling and sounds burned into onlookers memories.

John, this is one of my favorites.

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

Back in the earlier 1960s and then the later 1960s that kind of class F Alky cabover hydro saw both the Quincy padded block 6 cylinder Alky Deflector engines and then later you would see Flathead 4s and 6s on them by the mid and later 1960s. From a new racer, me with his stock racing Merc KG9 and Ogier C-D stock hydro those Alky monsters were pretty overwhelming.

Karen is totally right that BRF needs a video and sound entry to make the BRF section on these more complete and awesome!

Almost every Quincy Flathead or Quincy-Merc padded block deflector I have restored has been fired up, tuned and in some cases run the once on Wayne Walgrave's class F 1971 Chaparral I have here but in the excitement no one even thought to have a video/sound camera!

[Mark75H]

Karen is totally right that BRF needs a video and sound entry to make the BRF section on these more complete and awesome!

Hosting on youtube and linking on BRF's forum is the way to go. Video files are beyond the size suitable for hosting on a discussion board.

[J-Dub]

Here is a project Dad and I are doing with our friend Ken. The plan is put on the back of the DeSilva I bought from Howard Anderson where this engine once resided. Take it to a FEW races, make some noise and TRY not to break it.
As I returned home today from Ken’s shop while picking up the elbows, horns, ignition, and other parts, my buddy Corey was at my house. After Corey nearly crapped his pants after seeing his first Looper, he was obviously impressed.
Yesterday, to make things simpler, I machined an adapter to use the tower Howard had used for his Konigs and 500 Yamato to fit the Mark 75/78/6-Looper so now we can run all these engines on the same tower and units.
Here is where it gets interesting… Corey now has Howards Capsule Hydro with the identical tower…
Have we done the math???

J-Dub

[Master Oil Racing Team]

This is a beautiful project J Dub. I hope you will post photos and comments on the progress, and very important.....give advance notice of where you plan to crank up and run.:cool:

[Allen J. Lang]

JW- Wonder how it would run with the mods that Tim Kurcz made on the 44 merc and call it project 660. The only 6 looper I have seen run was the late Bill Fales (FRR) 1100 runabout built by the late master machinest Elly Langdon.
Ye Olde Desert Geezer :cool:

[Bill Van Steenwyk]

The pistons on the 6 looper look to have been moly coated. May I ask who did them if you know. Thanks

Also what kind of piston rings are being used. The ring grooves in the pistons don't look to be cut for L type rings which were used in some of the lesser cylinder looper models.

[J-Dub]

.039 ring.
Pistons were done by these motorcycle guys. They are first class guys too.

Performance Coating
Auburn, WA.
253.735.4466
Performancecoatings.com

[J-Dub]

This decision was made without the influence of acohol... REALLY!!!!
The plan is for the Oroville Kilos in Feb.

[Bill Van Steenwyk]

I for one can't wait. Wish I could be there to see it run, and more than that, hear it. If you do make it there, be sure and try to make some type recording of the runs, at least audio, better yet both audio and video. If you don't mind spilling the beans a little about your plans, what type lower unit do you plan on running? A standard type, or a special kilo unit.

I know everyone wishes you the best of luck. It has been way too long since one of those was "fired in anger".

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

Have a few cameras going. Not only of the raceboat and engine but people in general because you should see them run in different directions because most are figuring with a sound like that its going to explode too! LOL! :)

There is just NO SOUND LIKE IT! NONE! NADA! NYET! Nooooooooooooo!

[Jeff Lytle]

I think I'm in love!!!! :o:p:p:o


Wondering though...........It appears that you are using 2 different sweep radius' on the elbows. How come?

[Bill Van Steenwyk]

Jeff:

I am not absolutely sure, but I noticed the same thing on some other pictures in the past, and I think the reason for the different radius on the middle pipes is it looks as though if they were the same radius as the top and bottom ones, they would not fit in the belled area of the megaphones. It looks like they have to be slightly offset that way or the belled portion of the megaphone would have to be cut away somewhat on the middle set so as to allow them to be completly in line with the top and bottom. I believe I have seen that done on some of the ones I saw many years ago.

Check your PM's for a message about another subject please.

[J-Dub]

The pipes and elbows are all the same, its just they were not bolted at the time we took the pictures.

J-Dub

[Jeff Lytle]

Ahhhhhhhhhh! OK.........

Now I'm really in love! :o:p:p:o:D

[David Weaver]

Not to complicate matters too much, but could you fit trim to the engine? This might allow a little greater flexibility in propeller selection.

Of course it is easy to make such a suggestion from 2,500 miles away!!:D

[Frank Volker]

J-Dub,
That's a nice looking setup.
I noticed there are no water injection bosses on the elbows. Do you have plans to add this? It adds a very significant boost to low/mid-range hp, possibly allowing use of a higher pitch prop.

Frank

[J-Dub]

HEY! Keep the suggestions coming!
As for the power trim. Makes perfect logic, but ain't gonna happen at this point.
Water injection: We do have a set of elbows with water injection on them. Being we are not planning to run competition (yet) with it. Acceleration is not a big concern at this point.
Keep in mind, we haven't even tested yet. Don't count either suggestion all the way out. We also have done a fair amount of math with the gear ratios we have available, props will be the next trick.
Our next resource we are going to TRY to tap is the Lil' Fox Racing team of Rich and Paul Fuchslin.

J-Dub

[Frank Volker]

Water injection is really about moving the (near) peak hp around--something like a transmission. With the flatheads, this makes for a very fat hp curve, possibly moving near peak HP down the scale as much as 1000 RPM during the injection period. It's really about HP required vs HP available, or the "load curve" of the boat. For example, if you have what you feel is a great prop for a kilo run, but find that it tends to be very sticky or wants to "hang" at some lower RPM, then water injection at that point will become your Best Friend Forever.

Frank

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

A few years back when I restored a D Flathead with water injected stacks, when I ran it on the Chaparral F hydro I did not hookup the water injection electrically to action it for the runs I did. Now after hearing this from Frank I really regret I didn't because it would have made one real noticeable difference accellerating. Maybe a next time and another Flathead. Anyone need another 4 cylinder Flathead restored? hint! hint! I still have the Chaparral hydro ready and waiting as a testbed for next spring-summer 2009.

[Master Oil Racing Team]

A lot of us are looking forward to this happening. We wish you all the luck. Depending on how things develope, I may be among some of those on the bank to watch and record the runs.

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

It sure looks like we are finally see how fast a Flathead six can go fully held down for all its worth. Somehow there should be a backup engine available in case of some unforseeable problem hampering the effort. This is so cool! :)

[Gene East]

I liked Bill Van's comment "fired in anger".
Anyone who has seen and heard these critters understand what he means.
I love that sound and I still have 1 CD left.
I ain't partting with that one!!!!!
Good luck guys! Hope you break 150.
Also hope someone gets a recording of the song a 6 Looper sings that is compatible with BRF postings.
Once again Sam, What do we need?

[Bill Van Steenwyk]

J-Dub:

After reading your post on whether or not you were going to try to hook up the water injection on the pipes on the Looper 6, I have the following comments for you to consider.

I am convinced that the water injection would be as much or more help on a Kilo run as in competition, as it would allow you to run more prop that you might be able to ordinarily. It has been a long time since I have seen one of these motors run, and I have never driven one or been in a boat with one on the transom, but no matter how much power or torque a engine has, if there is a way to help "get over the hump" you might want to consider it. I used water injection to set a kilo record in the mid 80's that I could not even pull the prop after breaking over on plane without it. That prop allowed me to run thru the kilo probably 5-7 MPH faster than if I had not been using it, as I would have never been able to get it going after the boat initially broke over on plane. It is a very simple set up, and does not require a lot of expense or effort to rig up. If you are further interested in how it can be done, access the following thread from BRF started 1-5-07. http://www.boatracingfacts.co/forums/showthread.php?t=3748

This thread is under "water injection questions from the Quincy Forum. If you are not able to access it let me know and I will either fax or e-mail you a copy of the thread. You have a lot of folks pulling for you to get this engine on the water and thru the traps, so best of luck. You probably have the best "library" of quincy flathead reference information right here on BRF with Gene East, Frank Volker, etc. Jerry Peterson of course could also be invaluable from an information standpoint.

add: the adress I put in for the thread does not show complete as typed and I can not seem to correct it with the edit feature. To correct the adress add after the forward slash after the word "forums/" the two words "show thread and then the rest of the adress. If you still can't get to it let me know and I will send the info another way if you want it.

[Mark75H]

Also hope someone gets a recording of the song a 6 Looper sings that is compatible with BRF postings.
Once again Sam, What do we need?

Just send the tape directly to me. The transfer quality of the copies you sent me was unusable in addition to being proprietary vs generic. There were physical problems with the CD after we cracked the code on the proprietary files ... the adhesive on the label had eaten thru the top of the plastic and destroyed the data layer. Additionally the label was on so cockeyed it would not even spin in some of my players. Every time I solved one problem, another popped up and they were all related to the copying.