open face vs. full face helmets

[RTM]

I never liked full face helmets, becuase of the restricted side vision. I realize I`m giving up frontal protection with an open face helmet. I just bought a G-Force GF 650 open face helmet. I`ll paint it orange. My question is should I remove the visor?. Is the visor known to be a safety liability?

rich

[RTM]

I should have read the APBA RULES. Full face helmets mandatory.

rich

[Bunker Hill]

In the old days, we always used openfaced helmets in the stocks with out the visor, the visor seemed to block your vision somewhat while kneeling. I began racing in 1977 with an old "Bell Star" which was closed face, seems I couldn't wait to get a new "Super Magnum" open face.
The old theory was that closed faced helmets would "Bucket" in the event of a accident and cause neck injury. I believe that it was Bob Nordskog who went even further to produce a bucket free helmet and created a form fitting custom made low profile helmet, Ted May used one for years!
Toaday, few wear open faced helmets, seems to me, from observation, they are mostly capsule boat drivers
But in all, I think helmet technology is advancing in full faced helmets as there is more of a demand for them
JMHO

Bunker

[bill boyes]

I should have read the APBA RULES. Full face helmets mandatory.

richNot true. where did you read that? The rule states that eye protection is required

[RTM]

I read that in the APBA SAFETY RULES

http://www.apbaracing.com/rulebook/2007_rulebook_rule10_safety.pdf

back in the day when I raced, full faced helmets weren`t invented yet. Most wore 1/2 helmets with leather bottoms and ear covers. I had a friend that used a miners hat. Without the light, of course. LOL.

I just run my Desilva F racing runabout with a 105 Chrysler race motor, at the AOMCI events. I just want to be somewhat safe. I always worried about the bucket effect if I dumped it. It goes pretty fast.

RTM

[Andrew 4CE]

That link is for Personal Watercraft Racing Rules... jetskis

[jerry book]

Jet Skis?:eek: Those arent boats:D

[Mark75H]

Must be the Jetski rules ... also says CG approved PFD's are required

[F-12]

A long time ago I stuffed a sidcraft BSH and took the steering wheel and dash out with my face. Wearing an open face helmet allowed me to change facial features without expensive plastic surgery. That was 38 years ago. That was the LAST time I wore an open face helmet. As long as you can turn your head, you can see out both sides and the view isn't as limited as you imagine.

[Bill Van Steenwyk]

An interesting sidenote to this discussion, is how opinions and rules have changed regards full face helmets versus partial coverage designs over the years in boat racing.

In either the late 60's or early 70's, full face helmets started making a big "splash" (no pun intended) in various motor sports. The first helmet I had after starting back racing after a 10 year lay off in '68 was a Bell Star Full Face helmet. I really liked it and felt very safe and secure in it until I blew a tunnel boat over with someone else's on that did not fit as well as mine. Almost pulled my head off my body from the "bucket effect" and also when I finally got my head above water, I was still almost drowning because of the water trapped in the helmet and the water seal around the face shield preventing it from running out around the bottom. I lifted the shield with my hand and immediately got some air, and at the same time vowed I would NEVER wear anybody elses helmet, (that did not fit as well as mine) while racing or testing.

About this same time frame, there was a great deal of conversation about the "bucketing" effect of full face helmets being used in boat racing, in the event of a crash, and having been involved in that type of situation, I could appreciate the efforts that were being made to overcome it. At the same time I did not agree with the outright ban on full face helmets that was being talked about and trying to be enforced by having a rule against them in Boat Racing. Doc Collins had done a large amount of research (may be connected with the earlier remarks on this thread) and Alan Ishi, his driver at the time, wore one that fit very snugly to the head and offered very little area for "bucketing". I don't know what happened to that idea, probably a combination of small market and large liability in case someone got hurt wearing one, and it could be proved something else would have been safer. I don't believe I ever saw anyone wear one except Alan, although I am not familiar with what was taking place in other categories at the time.

That was, (I understand) the reason behind the push by APBA Safety Committe, or whoever it was that was against the wearing of full face helmets in boat racing, to drop the objection to them and the effort to ban their use by rule making. Someone at the time made the comment that if full face helmets were banned, without much research being done on harmful effects of same, someone who was forced to wear an open face helmet by rule could then sue if they were badly injured in the face area, as they had been prevented from wearing something that was approved in all other motor sports and could have prevented that type of facial injury. Plus some members at the time just did not like the "nanny state" type of rule making that is sometimes prevalent in all hazadous type of activity.

Interesting to see how things change and also remain the same over the years.

[Mark75H]

Bill, the same thing is in effect now, with a retro style rule that allows older style helmets because other racing associations do ... under current tort laws, if you are outside the herd you are more at risk under the law, so it is better to go along with the herd instead of leading

[Bill Van Steenwyk]

Sam:
Your comments are very interesting, not the least because that was EXACTLY my argument several years ago when the "radio rule" was so controversial, and so hot and heavy on both sides of the issue. My argument at that time, and still is, why, with all the categories under the APBA "umbrella" so to speak, is it OK to MANDATE safety equipment that can be used to prevent accidents in one or more categories, and then allow another category to make a rule against their use for certain classes dependent on how the driver is located in the boat and whether it has a safety capsule or not. That type of thinking , (so the category may "make its own rules" without outside interference by the APBA BOD) makes absolutely no sense, unless there is more here than meets the eye. You usually don't see this type of attitude by the BOD or the Safety Committee, especially when APBA wide liability could be at stake in a lawsuit by a member of the PRO category saying they are being denied the use of "safety" equipment" mandated for other categories in the same organization. I guess that is what I get for passing up law school for sales work, thank God.

[High Point]

When I got out of APBA stock outboard racing in 1976 I think there may have been a ban on full face helmets. I seem to recall that a young (20 something) OPC driver (Robby? Bobby?) was killed in Florida around 1974-1975. His broken neck was attributed to the bucketing effect of his helmet when he was thrown from his boat and entered the water feet first. His class wasn't even that fast -- it was a v-hull with mid-range power. Does anyone remember the details?

So I was surprised when I re-entered the sport in 2004 to learn that full face helmets were the norm. When I asked why, the two answers I got the most were that 1) technology has improved, full face helmets are now more form-fitting which prevents as much water from entering and 2) even if there is still a small bucketing effect, the times you need full face protection far outnumber the times you don't.

Those answers satisfied me and I've since bought full face helmets for me and my two boat racing sons. Although I have to admit it took some time for me to get used to the "closed in" feeling of a full face helmet.

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

There sure was a lot of discussion pro and con open face versus closed face wrap around helmets back around the time of the intro of the Bell Star. Some factors still germaine are things like "neck loading" from helmet weight in regards to what the neck of the user can withstand. Another was taking a helmet off the injured driver where a medical cast cutting saw might have to be put in use removing a full face helmet where a head or neck injury might exist. Painting helmets is still an issue as the retail final sale helmet versions are engineered with their finish and color as part of the safety package. When you alter the helmets finish with your own color and coloring product you are changing the engineering of the helmet and its properties of safety to the wearer. Its deemed safer to buy an approved helmet with the approved color from its production at the factory and never to do your own job. As for open face helmets I liked using them with a moto cross saftey mask and intergral googles. The "Darth Vader look" was part of scaring the tar other drivers into staying away from you and the use of your "force" while you raced!! LOL! :)

Humor aside, helmets, good ones are serious safety businees to be treated seriously.

[Bill Van Steenwyk]

John:

Your post brought back something I had forgotten that was an argument against the full face helmet back in the first years of it's use by it's detractors and folks lobbying against it's use. The issure of being able to give mouth to mouth without removing an injured drivers helmet was brought out as another reason to ban them. Along that same time frame there was a helmet that I believe was being made in Europe someplace that the whole lower "jaw" portion raised upwards and exposed the mouth, nose and lower jaw area, making that argument moot. I never saw one of this type helmet being used in boat racing, although some may have been. I never saw one period, except in ads in motercycle magazines. I seem to remember I inquired about one, but it could not be had in "APBA Orange" and the manufacturer did not authorize repainting with any other paint or color than they came in. Whether that was for the reason you mention, I do not know. The main thing that turned me off at the time was the price. They were about 800.00 at the time and that is more than some sell for now 35 years later, although I just got a Simpson catalogue in the mail the other day and sticker shock set in. They had several advertised in the 1400.00 range. A helmet of that type, life jacket, cut suit, and APBA dues for the first year now would be more than I paid for a C Hydro completely rigged with a 500CC Konig in 1973.

I guess I really am getting to be an "old fart".

[RTM]

Would a neck collar reduce or eliminate the bucket effect on full face helmets?

does anyone use them?

http://www.upr.com/G-Force-Kart-Neck-Collar-p318.html

rich

[bill boyes]

Both Security and Lifeline make neck collars. They also make a Helmet restraint harness. Check their Web Sites.

[Tony Scarlata]

Some people argue that you should not have your chin strap fastened real snug when wearing a neck restraint. The idea is that the helmet is gonna bucket and by keeping the chin strap loose your neck will not get snapped with as much force. The neck restraints used today are weak at best. They are relying on plastics buckles and clasps. The latest and greatest besides the HANS device is the Leatt Brace. A lot of motocross riders are moving to this. I tried one on at the World Finals and it definitely made an impression on me. You have great range of motion and the price is right at $600. The manufacturers have signed on with several Nascar teams.

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e79/csteved/FirebirdandSaltonSeaMisc005.jpg

That's not me in the picture:D

[Miss BK]

Don't forget that the water contact is only part of the issue when it comes to "bucketing". Bucketing can even occur without any water involved at all.

Some years ago I learned the term "bucketing" came from the gravitational forces you see as you swing a full bucket of water in a loop over your head -- the water stays with the bucket and pulls in the opposite direction. The greater the G-force, the more the water (the brain) wants to pull away from where the bucket connects to your body (which represents the strain being placed on your neck). In this scenario, a neck "collar" would actually be helping to separate the head from the neck if you did not also have a helmet/neck restraint system.

The heavier the helmet, the more force will be put on that point. So full face helmets typically are heavier than open --- however, modern full face helmets are much lighter than they were 10-15 years ago.

Then, if these pulling forces end in a sudden, abrupt stop, the neck can't hold up to that extreme force and often gives way at the weakest spot - the brain stem. This is where the HANS and D-Cell (See below) devices do their good work.

I read a very good article about this on a car racing website some years ago. But in boat racing, the water is an additional factor - because the properties of water can "catch" the helmet lip and cause it to snap.

The article I read told the reader to imagine a bowling ball that was attached to the end of a broom stick. Then start swinging it around ---- when you reach a certain speed, bring the broom stick to a sudden STOP. The bowling ball will likely keep on moving and the weakest spot will immediately snap - the neck.

But you don't even have to hit the water surface at all to end up suffering fatal injuries caused by bucketing. Helmet restraints are very valuable --- even the connections that break upon impact still give some protection at the critical moment - during that fraction of a second when forces abruptly change.

The D-Cell restrain system below anchors to your pelvis instead of to the harnesses so it can be used even in open cockpit (non-restraint) boats. But it is rated for lower speeds (under 150 mph) than the HANS, which is rated for 200+ and is used often NASCAR. There are many other similar devices these days.

The D-Cell allows more head movement, and has a quick disconnect (immediate release when you pull the yellow cord). Last I heard, the cost ran about $450.

http://www.raceindustry.com/ART/products/25334_parker-pumper.jpg

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

Humor aside the issues of helmets and neck loading when forces switch directions are real ones. You can get the same effects and forces put upon you with open faced as you will with closed face helmets. The advent of carbon fiber in helmet making, making them lighter and stronger yet with better to even custom form fitting for has changed the dynamics even more and added safety. There is less to catch on full face helmets today that are now generally ligher than open face helmets used to be as a result a lot see full face helmets completely safer than ever before and greater than any open face helmet made today. When it comes to physiology of different people, considering their neck structures should all be part of getting the right helmet as well as head fit and weight. A person with a very short neck is just as vulnerable to differing forces in accidents as a person with a longer neck. No neck loading factors can be the same and no two accidents are alike either. Like the previous poster is well pointing out, wite up and picture that the technology is helping make racing safer for the participant investing in the best possible safety technology.

[racer98]

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e79/csteved/FirebirdandSaltonSeaMisc005.jpg

That's not me in the picture:D

Kinda looks like your twin brother?

That brace looks interesting, have you talked to the Manuf. about which one would be appropriate for boat racing, appears to be 3-4 models?

[Tony Scarlata]

The brace pictured is the one for capsule boats. There is another one made for the moto guys that would be the one for open boat racers.

If Pat and I look alike, Im in trouble!!:eek:

[John Howe]

Also, be sure your helmet has passed the impact test.

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l72/PTB_01/Aussie/L10001671.jpg