Back to Back König 1000cc 8 cylinder oddity

[Mark75H]

If you've been checking out a lot of threads about the big Königs you might have noticed something special about the back to back König blocks used for the 1000cc 8 cylinder motors like this one (compared to the blocks used for the regular 500cc 4 cylinder version) .... what is different?

[Jeff Lytle]

Ooh Ooh----I KNOW--I KNOW !!! Pick me !! Oooooh Ohhhh !!

[Mark75H]

YOU told me ....

I know you know! :D

[Jeff Lytle]

Hope you still have the cool pic that'll back it up, cause I don't !!

[Mark75H]

I have it ;)

[Dan M]

The blocks have the intake and exhaust on the same side. Standard 500's had them on opposite sides. Dieter also used this block in a motorcycle. Sam, I this you have made reference to the bike on another forum.

Dan

[Jeff Lytle]

Yaaaaaaaayyyyyyyy!!

[smittythewelder]

Ron Anderson and Jim Hallum made a D engine with two B Anzanis in 1968. Chuck Walters tried to use it in D Runabout at the NOA Nationals in Forest Lake, Minn., but kept fouling plugs, I think. Soon after this, Hallum and Anderson ditched the SEM magnetos for CD ignition. Don't know if they ever got a good run out of this motor, and I don't think it stayed together for long; they were more interested in A and B Hydro.

[smittythewelder]

Oops, I guess those were Lucas mags. Sutter had a SEM mag on his Konig A.

BTW, is there a story that goes with that Konig/Konig? Was it fast/fast??

[Jeff Lytle]

Scarrrrrry fast fast.

Wayne Baldwin says Marshall thinks it would do 130+ with the right boat and driver.

As for the 700cc Hallum / Anderson / Anzani.......You are not going to believe this, but a member of this board has one.

John Taylor------Step up to the podium please !!

[Dan M]

I remember talking to Danny at Constantine when he had it on Marshall's conventional boat. Because it was a 1-off, parts were hard to come by. Danny said that he couln't get on the throttle hard because it would eat the gearcase. TOOOOOOO much power. That year at constantine, he broke the skeg off the lower unit. Couldn't get the boat to go straight let alone turn. Danny was such a competetor that he tried mounting an extra fin on the back left side of the transom. Made one lap that way and decided to park it for the weekend. I'm sure that proping that beast was hard to do also.

[smittythewelder]

Now, that Konig/Konig was a homebuilt, not a factory project, right? Who built it and when?

Konig did build at least one six-cylinder F engine, which was run in the States at least once, in the late '60s/early '70s. Wonder what became of that engine . . . ?

[Master Oil Racing Team]

Marshall Grant built that motor I believe during the winter or 73-74. I first remember it at Lakeland in 74 when Charlie Bailey drove it. Was it fast/fast? You better believe it. I remember Dan Kirts going down the backstraigt testing at the UIM OF World Championships in Fort Worth. I thought there would be no way to beat it, but I did. It was so heavy it didn't corner as well as my boat.

At that race the top three finishers were one-of-a-kind Konigs, two of which were built by Marshall Grant. The 6 cylinder konig you mentioned, Smitty, was one Dieter built and was driven by defending world champ Hans Krage. Dan Kirts drove Marshall's monster dual Konig and I had a dual rotary valve US style F built by Marshall Grant. It had two carbs on each side. You could see all the way through the motor. Had to caution the pit crew not to look through the carbuerator when we primed it because they might get a shot of gas in the eye. We bought it from Marshall after Billy Seebold started racing OPC.

I finished ahead of both these motors because of a lower profile and less weight allowed me to get around the course quicker. However, my motor was not eligible for the world because it was an OE. They wanted more entries and allowed me to step up. My "best friend" Joe Rome THREW ME OUT one heat for supposedly jumping the gun. We still laugh over that one.

What amazes me is that the dual Konig would ever complete a heat with power it had and such a small reservoir in the lower unit. Marshall Grant IS a master mechanic. He needs to fill us in on the details. BTW he did have the right driver for 130 mph. All he was lacking was a bigger boat.

[Mark75H]

I addtion to any homebrews, some or most of these were König factory 8's; the special König dual drive shaft lower unit is unique to the factory side by side 8's. Dieter made the dual driveshaft lower unit, too. Dieter submitted the paperwork to NOA on the specs for the side by side 8's as early as 1968.

A collector has the 6. I have seen pictures of it at the Tomahawk and maybe Oshkosh antique outboard shows.

[Jeff Lytle]

Any stories to share on this one Sam ??

Factory 850cc OE as I recall. Notice the 1 piece heads

The 1st time I saw this pic I wondered how and where they would run the rotary valve belt(s) to turn the discs. Sam.........Fill us in.

[Master Oil Racing Team]

Sam, You blew me away with the fact that more than one of these exists. I never saw any evidence of that during the times when I was at Dieter's factory. But then again, Dieter always had something in the werke's. I don't know how you can come up with so much obscure history. Keep it up.

[Mark75H]

The 1st time I saw this pic I wondered how and where they would run the rotary valve belt(s) to turn the discs

I wondered the exact same thing, but the answer is easy .... Dieter cheated us ..... he used reed valves! Genius without equal!

Steve Litzell told me something else about the stacked 8 .... I haven't looked at those notes in a while, it might have been that there was a lot of trouble keeping the blocks aligned and the cranks aligned .... of course, about the time they got it really right, UIM outlawed the König 8 in F3.

[Mark75H]

We've gone a little off track here .... Dan M got the main thing about the back to back blocks .... all the porting is on the same side of the block. On the motorcycles this was the bottom .... on the boats it was the inside where the 2 blocks touched.

Was there something else?

[Jeff Lytle]

The blocks have the intake and exhaust on the same side. Standard 500's had them on opposite sides. Dieter also used this block in a motorcycle. Sam, I this you have made reference to the bike on another forum.

Dan


In other words, you got part of it. There is something else too.

[Master Oil Racing Team]

Engine rotation? and drive shaft to propshaft arrangement? Also I forgot about how the throttle hookup was, since carbuerators are on opposite sides.

[smittythewelder]

As far as which side of the crackcase you admit the intake charge, even before Konig built the double-rotary-valve fours, Hallum modified a round-block C by adding four little pumper Tillotsons through reeds to the exhaust side of the 'case. After Gerry Walin got hurt, this six-carb C was sold to a Midwest driver; present whereabouts unknown to me.

[smittythewelder]

About that Konig six: You said you beat the six and the eight because they were both top-heavy and clumsy in the turns. Did the six have expansion chambers? One of the advantages of an opposed-six (or and inline triple) is that you can build a very simple, pulse-tuned exhaust which makes pretty good power and saves all the weight of pipes and brackets and sliders and cables. With all that steel removed, a Konig six would seem to be a pretty tidy package. Less top-heavy than a Merc or Loop six, anyway. Thoughts?

[Steve Litzell]

I wondered the exact same thing, but the answer is easy .... Dieter cheated us ..... he used reed valves! Genius without equal!

Steve Litzell told me something else about the stacked 8 .... I haven't looked at those notes in a while, it might have been that there was a lot of trouble keeping the blocks aligned and the cranks aligned .... of course, about the time they got it really right, UIM outlawed the König 8 in F3.

The picture you see here of the 850 motor was made late in the program as the electric start flywhell and the openings for the reeds and later the Boch fuel injection. I think there were about 3 or so of these made for class 850.Motor was 500 on bottom and 350 on top with a special crank coupler to make the crank one piece. The only thing that held the blocks together were the one piece heads. The first motor was rotaryvalve and rope start. The driver of this was Ulrich Rochel and he won many races with this. Ulrich or Uli for short, was the main driver for König in this class. I think there are only two men alive that can build the cranks for these, one in Berlin the other in Georgia. In response to the bike motors and six cylinder motor, first the bike motors were outboard blocks. The castings as many are aware or made for rotaryvalve placement on either side of motor. The block was turned over with exhaustside up and rotaryvalve was then added. This was done so exhausts wouldnot hit the ground on corners, however the sparkplugs did touch the ground and always broke off. If some of you remember on the 70's type VC VD VE heads. there was a angled flat boss made with the sparkplug boss. When the heads were drilled for bikes and Ron Embrose's 3/4 car, the plugs were put in on an angle so they were not damaged on corners. The six cylinder motors were very short term motors as the cranks would twist easy. That is why Hans Krage's motor had electric start. He would leave the beach and then shut the motor off and wait the clock out and then restart the motor for the race. This was done to save the crank. This motor also had expansion chambers as well. The last time I was at the factory in 2000 or so there was the bike still with the 700 in it, aginst the wall, and at least 2 blocks and bits and pieces for the six cylinder motor. The six cylinder motor was 4 cylinders 66mm and 2 cylinders 64 mm to make the motor over 850cc to meet the OF class requirments. hope this helps
Steve :)

[Master Oil Racing Team]

The Konig 8 had twice as many cylinders and pipes as mine did. Plus I think my tower housing was shorter, so my center of gravity was pretty low. Another factor I hadn't considered until a previous post came up was that Dan had to be careful in the turns not to chew up all the gears. The six cylinder was stacked taller, and Hans's proprider was no match for a Butts Aerowing in the turns on a smooth course.

Here are a few pictures of the six cylinder from Phoenix. Hard to tell about the exhaust because of the cowling. Maybe I have some other shots somewhere. Steve Litzell, tell us what you know about it.

It would be very interesting to see what those two boats could have done on a course like Lakeland or Yelm. We were blown out at Lakeland and Marshall didn't have the motor dialed in yet, and I don't know whether he ever got back there to run it or not, but I don't think so.

[Steve Litzell]

The Konig 8 had twice as many cylinders and pipes as mine did. Plus I think my tower housing was shorter, so my center of gravity was pretty low. Another factor I hadn't considered until a previous post came up was that Dan had to be careful in the turns not to chew up all the gears. The six cylinder was stacked taller, and Hans's proprider was no match for a Butts Aerowing in the turns on a smooth course.

Here are a few pictures of the six cylinder from Phoenix. Hard to tell about the exhaust because of the cowling. Maybe I have some other shots somewhere. Steve Litzell, tell us what you know about it.

It would be very interesting to see what those two boats could have done on a course like Lakeland or Yelm. We were blown out at Lakeland and Marshall didn't have the motor dialed in yet, and I don't know whether he ever got back there to run it or not, but I don't think so.

Hi Wayne, I'm not sure about the exhaust that Hans had on this motor as this was one of the first for OF. The motor i seen at factory had chambers and also had three 48mm carbs. I was taught how to do the crank just for informations sake and also crank experience. I made two or three for the 8 Cylinder. As I said the 6 was a crank twister and did not hold up well. Also the class structure changed in UIM to allow the VE motor. the f class was mainly a USA class. I think I might have a rotarydisc for the 6 in my old stock stuff. I think I can answer any other questions you may have on this if you wish.
steve

[Larry Terzinski]

I Think one of the Konig 6's is in the hands of Rod Terzinski in Rhinelander Wis. Saved from possible junk yard or distruction from OMC a few years back. Motor is complete and has meg. exhaust. Lars 36W