B Looper

[Danny Pigott]

I have a B Looper that has a 20H crankcase on it. Any body know the history of this, were any made this way at Quincy, i bought this engine in 1971 from Jim Reid in Ark.

[fbref5269]

danny,

is you post the serial numer in the thread paul christner should post some info on the engine.

the the crankcases on the loopers were the merc ones. toward the end of production quincy cast their own crankcases for the 4 cyl models.

frank

[Gene East]

I suspect the 20-H case was a retrofit.

A Looper case has 2 ports from the valve body to the cylinders like the 3rd port on a Mercury deflector.

A 20-H case does not enough material for the second port. Plus the 20-H is not as tight, too much volume.

I doubt if that engine produces full HP, but it probably would run well enough to enjoy a nice ride.

Also the Looper case is a 2 piece case. No heating of the case and freezing the crank for hit or miss assembly.

I loved my 20-H, but assembling a Looper was much easier.

[Danny Pigott]

Gene, This is a tight 20h case. I think it has the ports in the back of the reed cage in to the block. I will have to look an see maybe not as big as a looper case. Serial # is FB-91 it has this # on both the block an case.

[Gene East]

Danny,

A lot of Loopers were sold as kits. It's possible that may be the case with your engine. The original owner may have just bought cylinders,head and pipes and assembled the parts himself.

I can't recall a complete engine leaving Quincy built on a 20-H case.

Perhaps Paul will pick up on this post and enlighten us.

[Original Looper 1]

Danny, Gene & company:

As to the 20H crankcases leaving Quincy on an A or B Looper complete, I am in agreement with Gene. I have yet to be shown any acceptable documentation that proves that A or B Loopers left Quincy Welding with them originally.

As to the 4 cylinder Loopers, the very earliest ones did use the Mercury front crankcase half after it was line bored at Quincy Welding, along with the intermediate case. Gene brings up a good point - there were many Loopers A thru XF that left Quincy Welding in kit form. We all know how creative people can be, given the opportunity.

Danny, the original owner on record in the Quincy Welding serial number book for FB-91 was Bud Jewels. That's all the info I have on this particular Looper, unless I find a dyno card on it. If I do, I will post it later.

thanks,

Paul A Christner

[Aeroliner]

Hi Paul,
Here is a side by side photo of my A looper Doug Kay is restoring and a "B" Quincy stuffed crankcase. They look like a looper case but from the backside they look like a stock case. I bought the crankcase on E bay for $16.00 a couple years ago. Have no clue what it went to.
Alan

[mac19f]

Danny, Gene & company:

As to the 20H crankcases leaving Quincy on an A or B Looper complete, I am in agreement with Gene. I have yet to be shown any acceptable documentation that proves that A or B Loopers left Quincy Welding with them originally.

thanks,

Paul A Christner

Paul, you probably don't remember a conversation I was party to with you and your dad at Cypress Gardens AOMCI meet many years ago. I questioned OF about this and he confirmed that indeed some were built with Merc crankcases. I remember you and I were surprised to hear this.

[Tim Chance]

Wasn't the split case for the A's and B's introduced during the deflector era, before there was a Looper?

[Original Looper 1]

Sorry, but I don't recall this conversation that you are quoting took place. However, those that knew my father well, knew his hearing was poor at best by that time of his life and he often would agree with people rather than tell them he couldn't hear them.

Show me credible documentation backing up the rumors that A & B Loopers left Quincy Welding, by design, with Merc crankcases. Until then, I stand by my original statement posted here.

Paul A Christner

[Gene East]

Reply to Tim and Paul

Tim,
Yes, split cases were pre-looper.

Paul,

You're right about your Dad's hearing. I once had a hearing exam at the county fair. I was asked to recommend people who could benefit from hearing aids (other than myself) I said O.F. Christner. I was told I was not the first to recommend him.

He had ample reason to have hearing loss. Most of us who messed around racing have hearing loss, and who spent more time running those loud motors than Chris?

[mac19f]

This conversation was at the first AOMCI meet at Cypress Gardens sometime in the mid 1990's. I asked the question and you responded that you did not think any were made that way. OF responded that many people did not know it but some engines were originally supplied with Merc crankcases.

[Original Looper 1]

Let's try this one more time...........

Quincy Welding did use Merc front case halves temporarily on the 4 cylinder Loopers that left Quincy Welding, which may be why I think you are confused.

Please refrain from commenting further about what my father said on this issue as he is not here to defend himself.

Seems like kind of a petty issue to keep bringing up.


Paul A Christner

[Aeroliner]

I'm looking for a B looper block to restore one of my engines. If I can't find one I will make the item from a billet of 6061T651. If anyone else needs a "B" looper block let me know. If we get say five in production it will reduce the cost for everyone. Let me know if you would like to get one. My E mail is aerolinerboat@aol.com

Alan

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

The one thing that modern 2 stroke engineers in terms of modern tuned pipes (expansion chambers) suggest held back the Flathead engine was the split dual port 180 degress separated exhausts per cylinder. That were great for bells but the horsepower difference would be 20% versus some 50% using a single exhaust ported cylinder within the dimensions of the existing Flathead dimension specs. One pipe would feed one cylinder in this case and really make the expansion chambers work where the use of expansion chambers on the original design like megaphines produced mixed sonic shockwaves coming back that did not optimize what a single port single expansion chamber would have then. The old bell systems really pull through extracting unbelievably well but that is where new technology could have taken over but went south when the Z motors came along doing it instead. In discussing this with vetern racer and engine builder Florida's Elmer Grade around 2001 he was of the impression with his experience that given excellent machining practices and knowing the Merc crankshaft and related products and making the Flathead a billet machined job as opposed to castings the engine and crankshaft and related would have done the job but larger wristpins rods and wrist pin holed flathead pistons would certainly be part of the new mix. The engine though would look the same be it a 2, 4 or 6 save that the expansion chambers would be different in design but would belch different when it came to exhaust noise out of expansion chambers desgined right for the single exhaust port cylinder they would be working with.

Any discussion? :)

[Mark75H]

I'd say there was no proof of that and I think Frank Volker already contradicted it. I'm pretty sure he said he developed a working looper expansion chamber with water injection, but it was too late for the porting and intake design. Konig's V series was already too far ahead due to better port design.

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

All it would take ia a single new or used Flathead block where the exhaust tunnel was machined in, the matching sleve installed, new expansion chamber designed to match the new conditions and your off to the races. From all the measurements I have done using 4 cylinder blocks as measurement models it is all quite doable where lots of room exists on the 30 and 40 cube 4 cylinder engines to getting a bit thin walled at 44 cubes but still doable. The revised configuration fits into existing racing expansion chamber computer formulas nicely producing a different pipe that was developed of the old exhaust port configuration. The only other concern would be to use the new larger wrist pin fractured type big end connecting rods and larger wrist pin holes in the flat top looper pistons to go with the better engineered fractured big end connecting rods. The engine would look the same but I suspect sound a little different in the phased sounds and harmonics of the new configuration. Horsepower would defintely go up some knotches. It definetly could be renasaunce engine and made in America too boot! :)

[Mark75H]

Huh? I don't follow

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

Everyone has different abilities to follow differing trains of thought coupled with theorizations and visualizations to complete the big picture from small amounts of other relevent bits here and there. From all that comes the notion that Flatheads may not have left as early as they did being changes could have kept the lineage going longer, but this is all just wishful speculation with some valid engineering notions behind it just like Tim's 444 projects wondering just how far you can push a Merc 44. :)

[Aeroliner]

I would like to beleive that if you put a 20-H case on a looper it would be the sorryest running engine you ever saw. Looper crankcases were very tight and a 20-H case would come no where close to the Quincy cases. Some fool might have tried it but I'm sure that a real looper would blow by him. Quincy did make a split case for the 20-H but it surely wasn't a looper. See the photos posted above. Also note that there is no way to align the piston porting of a looper with the standard case. My guess a few folks made display engines that could really never run. I will be putting together a MUMPS quincy shortly with all the right Quincy parts and possible a split case 20-H with the case I have shown.

Alan

[Danny Pigott]

I would like to beleive that if you put a 20-H case on a looper it would be the sorryest running engine you ever saw. Looper crankcases were very tight and a 20-H case would come no where close to the Quincy cases. Some fool might have tried it but I'm sure that a real looper would blow by him. Quincy did make a split case for the 20-H but it surely wasn't a looper. See the photos posted above. Also note that there is no way to align the piston porting of a looper with the standard case. My guess a few folks made display engines that could really never run. I will be putting together a MUMPS quincy shortly with all the right Quincy parts and possible a split case 20-H with the case I have shown.

Alan

You really don't know what you are talking about, if you never had one. I am looking at the 20H case right now, guess what???.

[Mark75H]

Danny, what on the 20H case would feed the 3rd port passages on the looper block?

[Bob Rusnak]

I'm looking for a B looper block to restore one of my engines. If I can't find one I will make the item from a billet of 6061T651. If anyone else needs a "B" looper block let me know. If we get say five in production it will reduce the cost for everyone. Let me know if you would like to get one. My E mail is aerolinerboat@aol.com

Alan

Hi Alan, found a guy that has several "B" Looper blocks for sale. There are several different ones so need to know which block you need, bore, headers etc. Contact me and I can get you in touch with the owner. Bob 631-849-3242.

[Aeroliner]

You really don't know what you are talking about, if you never had one. I am looking at the 20H case right now, guess what???.

I have posted a photo of a Quincy split case for the 20-H. If you look at the front both cases look the same. My "A" looper case is shown along side the 20-H case. I quess if you give me a number stamp I can make a Quincy clone also. I beleive that someone could make a 20-H case look like a looper case with lots of welding and machining. The old 20-H cases were sand cast and the later were diecast units. The sand cast cases were tighter. I stand by my statement that it would hard to make the engine perform when you don't have the porting to make it correct. Show some photos of the inside to convince us that its the same as a looper case.

Alan

[Danny Pigott]

Photos are coming,then we can all make up our mine one way or the other

[Danny Pigott]

Here is the 20H looper case.

[Danny Pigott]

20H case

[Aeroliner]

Very intresting crankcase. Seems like it has a bit of work done to it. The case resembles what you would find on a Looper but port sizes are a bit smaller. Thanks for the photo.

Alan

[Gene East]

Danny,

Thanks for posting the picture.

One of the unique features of the Quincy Looper Engines was the fact a lot of 20-H parts that drivers already had could be used to hold down costs.

A lot of guys were able to build competitive engines at a fraction of the cost of a new Konig or Anzani.

Obviously that is the situation with your engine.

I can state with 99.99999% certainty that your engine did not come from Quincy with that crankcase.

A lot of very good Loopers were assembled at home using parts from stock or modified Mercury engines.

Of course some were built by racers who felt they had a few good ideas of their own to incorporate into a proven engine design.

You have something that probably no one else has!!

[Danny Pigott]

Anybody ever heard of a pumper crank for a looper.

[Bill Van Steenwyk]

I remember Harry ZAK telling me years ago that someone he knew in the bike motor world had spent an inordinate amount of time machining little "blades" or notches in the outside diameter of the crank discs on a crank in some two stroke bike. It made the outside of the crank disc edge look somewhat like a turbine wheel with the "blades" angled somewhat so as the crank rotated in the crankcase it would push more fuel air mixture into the transfer ports, i.e. generating a positive pressure in the crankcase to then pressurize the mixture and force it into the cylinder. Same principle as an internal supercharger. He never said if he found out whether this type modification would serve any useful purpose, but he was not overly impressed with the idea. Whether that was based on some personal experience he or one of the other engine gurus he talked with from time to time that had maybe tried it previously, he did not say and I did not ask.

I was around Harry long enough and had enough personal experience with his motor mods and work he did for me, that with one or two exceptions I knew he knew what he was talking about. Most folks never knew that he was very well thought of in a lot of other racing circles that used two strokes, as well as boat racing, based on motor work he did for other type motorsports that used those type engines.

[Danny Pigott]

Darn, Bill now the whole world know's. Or maybe not, my good friend that has one in a D Looper want let me see it. I know that at least two were made for D Looper's. One of them might have been in a motor that set the NOA Kilo in D Hydro. If you think back you might know who it was.

[Bill Van Steenwyk]

Hey Danny:

It is not my fault "that now the whole world knows," as you were the one that asked the orginal question. You ought to know by now if I have heard of it, I will put it up here.

Seriously though, it is times like this that I alway wish I had asked more questions, when Harry was talking. He was an amazing person to be around, because of all the knowledge he had. As previously mentioned I did not ask him why he did not think much of the idea, and now no one can. I have always thought it was a shame that he passed away before the advent of the internet, as I can just see him at a keyboard with the wheels turning, discussing his ideas with someone on the other side of the world in Italy or Japan, or wherever the center of the two stroke universe happened to be at that particular time. He never slept much anyway as he used to work until 4-5 in the morning. Said it was the only time everybody else was asleep and he could get anything done, as he was always on the phone with someone talking about what he was doing to their engine, or what he was going to do, or what he would like to try and would they go along with it. If I had asked those questions, one would have certainly been, "why aren't you more excited about this crankshaft idea, sounds like something that might work?" He might have been down that road before, as he started working on two strokes long before I met him and that was in 1968.

Was the person you are talking about with the D Hydro record in NOA Jerry Waldman? As I mentioned on another thread in BRF, I saw that record set in Alex, if that is the one you are talking about, I am still impressed. Almost as impressive as the record run itself, was the expression on his (Waldman's) face when Carl Rylee said he did not believe the equipment being used had recorded a correct time and speed for the first two way runs, and told him he would have to make a second run to prove it was not a timing error. Waldman told him after coming back to the pits after backing it up, that if he wanted anymore runs he (Rylee) would have to "drive it himself". Always thought that was priceless, as was the experience of being there and seeing history made.

[Danny Pigott]

Bill,It seem's that you an I, are the only folk's that know about this. You could be right about ZAK, from what he told you, he could have known the person that built these crank's. Waldman was not the person that I was talking about but who know's he could have had one. I don't won't to say who set the record, The guy is old an just want's to be left along. But if you go back further you will know. There is one running in a DMH / 44 merc. right now.

Danny

[Master Oil Racing Team]

Without going back to look up some old information, Charlie Redmond comes to mind.

[Danny Pigott]

Wayne, you are right.I don't know if Charlie had the crank in that motor are not but he did have one. He want talk to anyone to much, some say he still has the D Looper an the 6 Quincy. He set APBA record back then with I think one of the first D Looper's an the NOA record two times.

[Master Oil Racing Team]

Can you talk to Charlie, Danny? I never met him. I just started racing when he was going so fast in boats that really shouldn't have that kind of power on the transom. I was at a number of races that Charlie competed in. It was all NOA. I look back at some of the competitors from those days and I am still in awe to this day. It is Boatracingfacts that are bringing the history of boat racing back to the light of day. What historian would ever think of looking into boat racing? It is up to us. The people that were there to bring it to light.

There's a lot of people who would like to hear Charlie's story Danny. And pictures would be an exceptional prize.

[Danny Pigott]

I am pretty sure this is a pic of Charlie in the pre Looper days. Bloise Williams raced with Charlie back in the day. He may have some pics.

[Gene East]

Bill,It seem's that you an I, are the only folk's that know about this. You could be right about ZAK, from what he told you, he could have known the person that built these crank's. Waldman was not the person that I was talking about but who know's he could have had one. I don't won't to say who set the record, The guy is old an just want's to be left along. But if you go back further you will know. There is one running in a DMH / 44 merc. right now.

Danny

I've seen the inside of every "Looper" ever built by Quincy for Gerry Waldman.
He never had the crank described in this thread.

In fact, Gerry's engines were no different than any other engine built by Quincy contrary to popular belief.

The reason for Gerry's success was his expertise as a set-up man and his incredible courage as a driver.

Not many could fly a hydro as high as Gerry and not get "Left hand relaxation"!

[Bob Dunlap]

You right Gene, Charlie Redmond and Bloise Williams had the special cranks made by a famous Calif crankshaft builder (whom I won't name, he might still have some laying around). They had the counter weights ground like an aircraft wing and really worked at high rpm, none of that turbine crap just super trick stuff. I talk to Charlie sometimes but he won't come out, he could be watching here! He still talks about winning the 1964 unlimited hydro championship with a 44 Quincy Flathead looper and beating you guys! He doesn't have any of the stuff anymore, a local guy has his Quincy looper and it might as well be in a black hole. Sorry for not chiming in much but am too busy working on the motors and boats. Bloise is watching but won't talk. I have Elsie Hatten's 44 Quincy looper and it could have one of the cranks, I have never looked inside it.

[Danny Pigott]

Bob, theres something fishie here, old Bloise is being cagie about this. I saw the crank you are talking about. an it was not suppose to be the Pumper crank. It really does not matter, this is just fun because Bloise an Charlie keep this a secret all these years. I know who made the cranks too.

[F-12]

Well THAT'S a first...............I have NEVER known Bloise not to speak up. He was the guy that got my attention with a Flathead down here in FL. Leesburg I think............What a great guy and good friend. Come on Bloise. You were always the fast guy...........don't start being bashful now.

[Danny Pigott]

B Looper 1971 Ocoee Fla. Boat is Dubinski build by Dub Parker. Dad an Sparky Sapp wondering why it runs so good.

[Ronny W.]

Charley, dads not being bashful he's just been busy working he still looks on from time to time.

And Danny there may be more than one of thoes cranks runing in a 44 lol.

[Danny Pigott]

This is not a (B) but is a pretty Looper. I remember Ray well.

[David Mason]

Danny,

Thanks. Grandpa was a great man. I carried him out of the woods on the fatefull day he died doing what he loved. It is a day I felt both proud and sad.

What many might not know about my granfather, he was a Golden Gloves boxer as well. I have his Golden Gloves pin on my shelf. He boxed many well known names and won. It was his hobby a long long time ago when he worked for the University. Anyone heard of Joe Louis ?

Grandpa also was one of the best deer hunters I have seen. I have been to Wyoming hunting with him many times. He has a lot of deer head mounts. We have kept them too. Never had the measured, but I am guessingthey would score high. Grandpa was never about the records for hunting. He was simply putting meat on the table and doing something he loved to do. That and boat racing were what he did.

Today, Granfathers last boat he ever raced in DMH (40CI) is being raced. We still have Wildfire. Jeff Young built the boat from Indianapolis. Ashley raced it all last season with a 25Mod on it. It has remained in its original condition with the original airbrush graphic.

Some day when I get more time I will try to scan all the pics we have. Grandma Mason told Grandpa she would smoke a cigar if he won the Nationals at age 70. We have the pic of her first and only cigar of her life. For those that new Grandma, knew she was as pure as they come.

Thanks Danny for the memories.

[Gene East]

Dave, I knew your Grandma and your Grandpa. I used to camp at a lot of races and remember visiting with them in their converted Cadillac hearse camper.

Didn't realise Ray was a boxer until now. He was such a gentleman I can't imagine him ever hitting anyone.

Both your grandparents were very nice to me.

I do remember him talking about hunting though.

[Danny Pigott]

The late John Dressel, This was one of the fastest B Loopers I ever saw run. John must not have liked Konigs,he went from the Looper to a RB Yamato.

[Danny Pigott]

Gene or anybody that knows. Why was the botton part of the butterfly on Quincy Carter carbs cut off. None that i have, have full butterflys or the stock one. They are all cut off.

[scscuba1]

The late John Dressel, This was one of the fastest B Loopers I ever saw run. John must not have liked Konigs,he went from the Looper to a RB Yamato.

Danny, Any idea what happened to John Dressel? I lost touch with him after Jim died.

[F-12]

I'm not sure but I think I remember hearing he passed away a while back. He was one of the good ones. He was a fierce competetor but a barrel of laughs after the races were over. Always ready to help out another racer, too.

[Gene East]

Gene or anybody that knows. Why was the botton part of the butterfly on Quincy Carter carbs cut off. None that i have, have full butterflys or the stock one. They are all cut off.

It is my understanding this was done to prevent a rich fuel/air mixture from fouling spark plugs when backing off the throttle on the old mag ignition.

CD ignition would fire through 90wt gear oil (not really) but it was much better. We never changed back because there weren't that many uncut butterflies left.

Chris offerred to buy 1000 Model N's from Carter in the late 60's.

They were very gracious when they told him a special run of only 1000 units would be cost prohibitive.

Before electrical disconnect switches I nearly put a B-Hydro on the rocks at Lake Cooper (Hamilton, IL) because the cut butterfly did not kill the engine when I backed off coming into the pits.

Although I raced very little Chris often let me take a ride at the end of the day.

I'm sure he would not have been proud of me if I smashed the boat against the rocks at 70MPH

[Danny Pigott]

What a great motor, I can't remember who these guys were. This was Hinton W.V.

[Danny Pigott]

Yamato F this motor belong to the same guys.

[Mark75H]

Joe Michellini ?

[Master Oil Racing Team]

The looper throws me off, but Airmarine is Joe Michelini, but I was never around him enough to say that's him looking from behind. However, in the background you can see Jim McKean. Joe wanted Tim Butts to drive the 8 cylinder Yamato for him at Dayton, but Tim refused. To tie it altogether is that stacked pair of Yamato's. Dan Kirts was set to drive it, but it broke before it really got on a plane.

[Mark75H]

Michellini had a 6 cylinder looper with 9 carbs

[hydrodriver]

He are those engines from a pix I took at the Kaukauna kilo's in '75

[Danny Pigott]

This is a Qunicy 4 cyl. throttle hook up these were used on both deflector and loop motors.i have seen one on a DMH in the last couple years. I would guess Quncy started making them in the mid 50's. This one came off a C alky Merc. that once belong to Billy Hugan from Ala.

[Aeroliner]

20H case

I just receied a 20-H crank and reed block that I bought from a friend. He tossed in a second reed block that looks like it would mate with the 20-H case modified by quincy.

Alan

[David Mason]

This is a Qunicy 4 cyl. throttle hook up these were used on both deflector and loop motors.i have seen one on a DMH in the last couple years. I would guess Quncy started making them in the mid 50's. This one came off a C alky Merc. that once belong to Billy Hugan from Ala.

Danny,

We still use these on the 44's. I think we have one original, and one that has been repaired or modified to fit enough that it is not original. But it is still a great part to use. Gets the job done, even today !

[Danny Pigott]

Alan, that looks like it could be one i know there has to be more than the one i have. The only other thing i can think of is it is a 3rd port cage. I have a 3rd port 44 but it been so long that it was apart i can't remember what it looked like.

[Danny Pigott]

Dave I saw one of these on E Vanover's 44 a few years ago. I don't know if it was a Quincy or not. The one I have came off a Qunicy C , I still have the motor 4 pipes and all.

[Gene East]

I don't know what production model this cage is from, or even if it was used on a production model. The 2 ports in the back side of the cage appear to be have been machined at Mercury.

It is possible they were made in the R&D department and sold through Quincy. I'm not sure.

I do know some "special" parts were available through Quincy before they were available to the general public.

In any case, this is not the way a Quincy 3rd port cage was cut when I worked there.
Although the front opening definitely looks Quincy-ized.

[Gene East]

I just got an e-mail from Dave Haman.

He said this valve body is an original 20-H. The holes in the back are for the machined passages through the valve body. Look closer, you'll see what he's talking about.

The later passages were cast. Dave is absolutely correct. Thanks Dave!

I'm going to the bathroom now to wipe the egg off my face.

[R Austin]

Maybe no egg Gene. The reeds from the first 4 cylinder motors, KG9-Mark40's, had completely machined reeds as pictured. What through me is the position of the locating pin. I do not recall that being offset in those early motors. I am not familiar with the 20 H reed that ran a roller bearing.