APBA Stock Legal Fuel

[Mark75H]

How will the APBA resolve the issue of decreasing availability of non-ethanol fuel for Divisionals and Nationals?

Should future Divs and Nats bids be required to guarantee availability of legal fuel even if they have to truck it in? Should racers pay for fuel in advance so the race committee knows how much to buy and isn't stuck with too much left over?

[Mark75H]

A few days ago I was checking out some web sites about testing gas for ethanol content. Many of them had the little graduated cylinder test kits for $20-$30 that show the approximate ethanol content.

One site had those test kits and a quick check kit with some chemical dye to add to gas samples to see if they contain ethanol.

I did a little test here at home today to see if my guess about the dye test was correct.

As I suspected, the dye is just food coloring and works reasonably well!

Put your sample of gas in a container and add one small drop of food coloring. Then shake the container pretty hard. If the dye settles back to the bottom quickly and doesn't change size or color, your gas is ethanol free. If the dye disburses evenly, stays suspended or completely dissolves into the sample ... ethanol is present.

I also did some tests with 190 proof grain alcohol. One drop of food coloring falls to the bottom and lands like an ink blot. Shaking this sample really dispersed the food coloring and it stayed fully dissolved.

Next I added 10% 190 proof grain alcohol to some gas, shook it up well and added a drop of red food coloring. The food coloring went right to a phase separated layer at the bottom and turned it red. I shook the whole mixture and watched it settle. Everything turned light red. There were lots of very small dots in the mixture that generally settled back to the phase separated layer ... but everything was one shade or another of red. 190 proof grain alcohol has quite a bit of water in it, my mixture probably was the same as 10% ethanol gas that had sat in an open container for a week or so. I read some stuff about commercial processing of ethanol and plan on improving the proof of my corn squeezin's for more testing later on.

So ... don't spend a lot of money on the dye test kit ... just buy it at the grocery store.

[Mark75H]

Many years ago APBA didn't use the Digitron fuel tester. Instead they use a less expensive less accurate tester called a GT-100. I still have mine and still use it even though the Digitron is about 20 to 50 times more accurate.

Last summer I decided to try the conductance test mode of my Fluke 87 V meter on some fuel samples. I was disappointed that I could not get the Fluke to make a reading of the fuel samples I had.

Today, while doing the tests above, I tried the Fluke again. This time I got results. The problem I had before was that the test probes were too far apart in the sample. Both the GT-100 and Digitron meters have special probes with preset close spacing of the probes very close to each other.

With the probes close together, the Fluke gives readings that are very similar to the Digitron.

I will be making myself a special test lead/probe set that holds the probes at a close, fixed position.

[Mark75H]

I just went by a Shell station and noticed a sign "Now Nitrogen enriched"
I guess it was released this week. How will this spike the meeter?

I brought home a sample of "Nitrogen Enriched Shell" and tested it today. Test #1 was water solubility for presence of ethanol ... dye test did not dissolve in it at all, probably no ethanol. Test #2 conductance, like the Digitron: GT-100 (the old less sensitive meter) 20 (AV gas and a lot of non-ethanol gas tests zero with the GT-100) ... with a Fluke 87: +65

[Skoontz]

I would like to put the burden of proving ethanol or pump fuels show a significant advantage on those who like this rule as written. Get a dyno ntest and put pump fuels with ethanol through and see what it shows. I'm betting little to nothing because the rules dictate how an engine can be machined, kept stock etc.

Now in the mod classes, you may have a whole other ball of wax....

[Mark75H]

I would like to put the burden of proving ethanol or pump fuels show a significant advantage on those who like this rule as written. Get a dyno ntest and put pump fuels with ethanol through and see what it shows. I'm betting little to nothing because the rules dictate how an engine can be machined, kept stock etc.

Now in the mod classes, you may have a whole other ball of wax....

Skoontz, there is a significant power increase with ethanol over straight gas - even with stock engines ... this has been documented since the 1950's. Additionally the only inexpensive practical field tests can not tell the difference between 10% ethanol and 10% nitromethane - which gives even more power increase, so both are banned.


The nitrogen enrichment is because it costs too much to extract the nitrogen from the grain fuel, so they just use it as a marketing ploy..:):)

I have no idea where you got that idea. There is no nitrogen in the ethanol produced for either fuel or drinking. The only thing in it after distillation is alcohol and water.

As I posted on both forums, the "nitrogen enriched" gas I tested earlier today did not have ethanol.

[Skoontz]

Ok, let me rephase then.

How many miles per hour faster will a boat go with pump gas available today, vs legal fuel as trested in the meter? Is the power increase you are saying has been documented something that shows in any significant gain when the prop hits the water?

At best, those who have answered this question have in past fuel threads answered all over the board and since we don't test out gas in testing, we really can't give an accurate answer.

What I'm getting at is, what's the big deal with calling a fuel of the day and moving on with the mess?

[Mark75H]

The difference with ethanol is about enough to make one finishing place on a short course, maybe 2 or 3 on a long course and enough to break each speed record. With nitromethane it would be double.

As posted above, at race sites there is no practical, economical way with the current tests to test the difference between added ethanol and added nitromethane.

Under the current rules, KT has a chance to place at the Nationals in 2010. If we changed to a fuel of the day fuel rule for the Nationals, she will be behind every driver who has a mechanic who knows how to maximize a motor for a particular fuel and how to mix up optimum fuel that meets that day's meter reading.

Is it fair to all the current speed record holders? Fair to those who have motors optimized for the current rules and don't know how to change their motors for a different fuel? Fair to those who don't know how to make fuel that is better than available at the pump but still passes?

Stock Outboard racing is supposed to be about boats and driving, not mixing fuel.

I hope to be able to take some fuel samples at races here in the east and document how much variation there is with the simple field tests to see if we might be able to change to a fuel of the day rule that pretty much rules out special gas but allows local gas.

If someone in the west and mid west would do the same, it would be very helpful.

I am hopeful that we may be able to go to a fuel of the day rule with a few specific parameters added to the current rules that is fair to everyone.

[Skoontz]

Thanks for the example Sam. If that is all tested, true, etc, there is a dilema for here sure.

[721 Jr.]

Thanks for the example Sam. If that is all tested, true, etc, there is a dilema for here sure.

I have placed several posts regarding fuel I can get everyone legal fuel why dont you call me 916-517-5998 I'll help you

[Mark75H]

93 octane or higher?

[Jakob77]

I'm not an SO driver, so my opinion doesn't really matter here, but I gotta give it anyway.

I guess I don't see why you guys don't just pick a couple of fuels out of the VP Fuel catalog and that's that. Or use any racing fuel company that you like.

We run the VP at the APR races. They have a minimum that you have to purchase at registration, which is something like 5 gallons for an SST-60 and 10 for an SST-120. They have us pre-order so they know what to get and you can order as much extra as you want if you need some for testing or a club race somewhere. We have two options, the VP Marine and MS93. You guys might like something else, but at least you establish a standard that you know will be exactly the same everywhere you go.

It's hard to tune things when the gas is different everywhere.

[Skoontz]

Mark:

Will you be at Puddingstone?

[721 Jr.]

I wont but my dad will I have some good fuel you can try call me Ill tell you about it.
916-517-5998. I run it in my boat has always passed and I have no minimum APBA just passed 4 more of our fuels for PS and SS.

[Mark75H]

I guess I don't see why you guys don't just pick a couple of fuels out of the VP Fuel catalog and that's that. Or use any racing fuel company that you like.

We run the VP at the APR races. They have a minimum that you have to purchase at registration, which is something like 5 gallons for an SST-60 and 10 for an SST-120. They have us pre-order so they know what to get and you can order as much extra as you want if you need some for testing or a club race somewhere. We have two options, the VP Marine and MS93. You guys might like something else, but at least you establish a standard that you know will be exactly the same everywhere you go.

It's hard to tune things when the gas is different everywhere.

Very good suggestion. I think Stock will have to at least lean this way at Divisionals and Nationals

Here is the VP fuels page http://vpracingfuels.com/fuels_unleaded.asp

About half way down the page are some choices that should work for APBA Stock.

Thanks for pointing this out, Mark

[sst45jefff]

Very good suggestion. I think Stock will have to at least lean this way at Divisionals and Nationals

Here is the VP fuels page http://vpracingfuels.com/fuels_unleaded.asp

About half way down the page are some choices that should work for APBA Stock.

Thanks for pointing this out, Mark

Seems there is only one fuel from the VP list you linked that is not oxygenated.

What about the logistics for the rest of the race programs across the country to get legal fuel. It is a huge headache to try and figure out at each race how much legal fuel to have on hand when you cant even get guys to pre-register for a race.
I think you would see less boats at the races due to lack of prior planning.
What due you do if you run out of legal fuel on site?

It does not fix the problem.

Not to mention the guy that runs a different legal fuel that he is tuned for. Then he goes to the Nationals and has to run a designated fuel he is not tuned for.

[David Mason]

Sam,

Read about the Stock Nat's on the other website, they posted a long time ago that they were providing VP fuel to the racers if you pre-order how much you need........ problem solved for that race anyway. No excuse to not be legal.

[Mark75H]

Seems there is only one fuel from the VP list you linked that is not oxygenated.

It does not fix the problem.

Not to mention the guy that runs a different legal fuel that he is tuned for. Then he goes to the Nationals and has to run a designated fuel he is not tuned for.

Correct, MS93 is about half way down the page, and it is the only one, my mistake.

I think it would solve the problem. In Stock, the only races where the "fuel of the day" rule can not be used are Nationals and Divisionals.

I do not propose that there should be a designated fuel, only that future Divisionals and Nationals do as this year's Stock Nationals at Grasslake IS doing: Provide legal fuel for those who pre-pay. Race committees wouldn't have to do anymore than buy what is paid for in advance. If the fuel is known in advance, such as VP MS93, everyone has the opportunity to test and tune in advance by purchasing their own can; it will not be mystery fuel like the current practice of buying what is available locally.

Dave is right, no excuse for not being legal.

[Jakob77]

I believe VP has some other fuels that aren't listed in their catalog, too. When we first started using VP at the APR races, MS93 was not in their catalog. I would suggest that someone contact VP and see what they do have that may better meet the particular needs of your engines.

VP has worked well with APR. I believe that what happens is that when we pre-register, we specify how much fuel we need. APR then totals that up and sends the order to VP. One of VPs local distributors then brings the fuel to the race site, and they always bring some extra. That covers a couple of guys that might show up unexpectedly, plus you always have a guy or two that was planning on coming but didn't make it. So you have his fuel as well. We used to pay the VP guy directly and he'd pump the fuel into our containers, but then he had to keep track of who bought what and we had to save receipts so we could prove that we bought the legal fuel. Now we pay APR for the fuel when we register and they just write the VP guy one big check. The fuel comes in sealed, metal, 5 gallon cans so you just go over to the fuel guy and pick up all the cans that have your name written on them.

If you guys are considering this, I would suggest that someone contact Sam or Sherron at APR. I'm sure they'd help you guys make the right contacts at VP. I'd also think that VP would be willing to work out some sponsorship deal as well.

As far as finding fuel, VP has warehouses located around the country. They have dealers literally everywhere. You just call the nearest warehouse (mine is in Terra Haute, IN) and ask them who your local dealer would be. My dealer is up in Chicago, but they run down to Terra Haute at least once a week to pick up fuel. Whatever I need, whether it be 5 gallons or 50 gallons, he'll drop it off right here at the house on the way back. A couple of times, I've decided to go to a non-APR event where I needed to provide my own fuel. I've called VP and found a dealer that was on my route to the races, then made arrangements for him to have what I need so I can pick it up on my way through. I think the stuff is very accessible.

Plus, I've never seen a stuck float needle and seat since we've started running it!

Again, just 2 cents from someone who has only been to stock outboard races by accident!

[Jakob77]

APR brings MS93 - unleaded motor octane 90, or MS Marine - leaded motor octane 97.

The Marine seems to have a very high evaporation rate and I personally avoid it.

At the OPC nationals, I believe we also usually get VP Red, which is leaded and has a motor octane of 105. I suppose for Mod-U motors.

[JohnsonM50]

Correct, MS93 is about half way down the page, and it is the only one, my mistake.

I think it would solve the problem. In Stock, the only races where the "fuel of the day" rule can not be used are Nationals and Divisionals.

I do not propose that there should be a designated fuel, only that future Divisionals and Nationals do as this year's Stock Nationals at Grasslake IS doing: Provide legal fuel for those who pre-pay. Race committees wouldn't have to do anymore than buy what is paid for in advance. If the fuel is known in advance, such as VP MS93, everyone has the opportunity to test and tune in advance by purchasing their own can; it will not be mystery fuel like the current practice of buying what is available locally.

Dave is right, no excuse for not being legal.

As far as locally bought fuel that will pass Ive seen pre race postings on what brand/grade will be OK to bring, hopefully that will continue for now.

[Mark75H]

As far as locally bought fuel that will pass Ive seen pre race postings on what brand/grade will be OK to bring, hopefully that will continue for now.

The problem with that is ... what tests good Thursday or Friday may not test legal on Saturday. Most busy stations get a delivery every day or two. Some near me will get several deliveries in one day (yeah, I live 'where its at')

[JohnsonM50]

The problem with that is ... what tests good Thursday or Friday may not test legal on Saturday. Most busy stations get a delivery every day or two. Some near me will get several deliveries in one day (yeah, I live 'where its at') From travelin thru the Balt/DC area Ive seen that its like Jersey, use lotsa gas. :eek: