Trailer tires

[Skoontz]

We have a bunch of trailers. Miller flat deck (low boy type), enclosed Wells Cargo, and some off brand utility trailers.

Seems every one that uses those torsion axle pieces of junk, ( all the spring axle trailers do not get this wear) ends up wearing tires like in these pictures. Now, the people at Dexter (the axel manufacturer) have never seen anything like this....Did I check my air pressure, did I this did I that.... Frankly, I've heard the same lines of dance around the issue from Kawasaki, John Deere, Briggs and Stratton, and Scag power equipment. The internet stops that stuff cold, so, i asking you guys...What do you think is causing this?

The rear axles of all our torsion axle tandem trailers get the same wear, sometimes with less than 10000 miles, they are on local routes

[Mark75H]

I have never seen that pattern on a properly inflated tire, only under inflated. Possibly over loaded for inflation.

[Skoontz]

It darn near looks like a car that is toed in doesn't it Sam?

I'm running 35lbs or air. The total load on the trailer and I'm talking boat trailer are a couple hundred pounds of motors, another hundred pounds of propps, tools, and gear, another 100 pounds of boat and some miscellanious stuff. Max lood on the trailer is 2000 lbs. The only thing on this one i can say can get goofy is the trailer angle. Sometimes, the ball is a couple inches higher than what would make the frame parralel to the road, so te rake would be higher at the tongue.

But then add the tandem trailers, correct load, running 45 lbs of air on different tires....Same wear pattern happens on the rear axles in a very short amount of milage.

[Mark75H]

No, it doesn't look like a toe problem. Toe wears only on one side. I see symmetrical wear, typical of over loading or under inflating. Are you certain the tires are really rated for the weight they are carrying?

[Roy Hodges]

You said it's LOCAL use . i think that means a lot of sharp turns that a highway rig would not necessarily get.Dual axles SKID tires in turns . That may be (or maybe not ) yer problemo ! ?

[Skoontz]

The boat trailer is going 200 miles plus for every race, and short run for practice. The bigger trailers are local, and do turn more. But, the same goes for the trailers suspended by springs. The spring trailers back wheels have flat even wear across them just as you expect when tight turns are made. The rear of the torsion axle trailers look just like the ones on this single axle rig.

I can see what Sam is saying, if the pressure was low, the edges would wear and the centers would wear less, kind of like here....But, that does not explain the cupping and the almost saw cut appearance of the rubber treads.

And why is this occuring with the torsion suspension and not the spring suspension?

I tried to theorize this to the people at Dexter in suggestiing that when the wheels hit bumps, they are not flexing in a straight line and comming back immediately to where they are supposed to be riding...The people at Dexter said no way. One guy even suggested the trailer brakes were bad....One problem with that...No brakes on the single axle trailer....

[sst45jefff]

I would check the alignment on the axle ends. (The torsion spring ends with the axle.
It seems like that is the wear pattern are trailer was having when it was wearing tires out very quickly (20,000 miles or so) until the cords popped through and they blew.

The torsion spring axles tend to get bent over time (bumps/potholes) evidently at a untrue angle in comparison to the axle itself where it bolts on to the trailer.
Which makes that funny where pattern, as the torsion part of the axle goes up and down the angle is all over the place in relationship to what is straight with the main axle and the trailer.

[Roy Hodges]

yes, now that you mention alignment- My welding truck ; a Ford F-350's front tires were wearing like that . i checked the toe in - out - it was 5/16" OUT of specks !

[Fast Fred]

"cupping" thats what ya gots there:eek::cool:

[Fast Fred]

the top of the wheel leans out at the top (to far) so the force is on the outside edge of the tire. did you stuff the curb?:eek::cool:

[Skoontz]

Over 10 years, I'm sure a few curbs got biffed here and there. But the culprrit seems to be pointing at the torsion axles and the way they flex, along with out of alignment stuff.

Stuff like that just tends to drive me nuts, and, is expensive to fix. I guess you could look at a pair of tires at say $250 bucks, and if they lasted 2 seasons, VS $1,000 for a new axle and then ask how long we stay in this trailer...I'm kind of nosing around for a 24' toy hauler so we got lodging as well....

I dunno....Not making much sense with this cupping issue. Thanks for all the input thus far

[Roy Hodges]

[QUOTE=Fast Fred;69948]the top of the wheel leans out at the top (to far) so the force is on the outside edge of the tire. did you stuff the curb?:eek::cool................................... .......
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No, the alignment was out ,when i bought it USED. But, the trucking co. i bought it from had put NEW tires on it when they put it up for sale , so the tires went out at 8,000 miles.

[p28 renegade]

there appear to be many things askew here. if this was a car that came into the dealership, i would assume it was a front engine transaxle car. weight on rear tires is lite. under inflation or too much load for what tires are rated. lack of tire balance also cause scalloping on tires. also i would check to see if axle is square. you are scrubbing outer edges off. combine with too much weight or not enough psi can also give you this wear.
just my 2 cents

[Fast Fred]

what he said, and this
check to see if axle is square.:cool:

[H2oracer110]

Bill, I have seen torsion axles tow out during braking. Maybe yours are worn to the point that they tow in and out when making a turn.

[Seanp3]

are both sides wearing the same, or just this side?

[mikegh]

Are they bias ply tires? I changed my old boat trailer to radials and it towed better and didnt wear out the tires like the bais plys did. Maybe have them balanced to if they are out of balance enough they could be bouncing down the road at highway speeds.

[sst45jefff]

It was about $350.00 to do the three axles on our trailer.
They heated them up and straightened them all out. I was surprised at how inexpensive it was to do considering what they were doing.
I think the key is to find someone who does trailer axles allot. They are quicker at it and will do a better job. The guys that don't do it much demand a premium because they can.




Stuff like that just tends to drive me nuts, and, is expensive to fix. I guess you could look at a pair of tires at say $250 bucks, and if they lasted 2 seasons, VS $1,000 for a new axle and then ask how long we stay in this trailer...I'm kind of nosing around for a 24' toy hauler so we got lodging as well....

[Skoontz]

Tires are radials, Carlisles I believe. $350 for an alignment sounds pretty good, actually. But next time, I'm telling them to leave the rubber band suspension in the trash can and get springs....

I can start playing with tire pressure to see if it makes a difference, but then the trailer ride goes away and the centers of the tires wear out. What was really weird, is they seemd like they were doing Ok...Then when i looked one day, there it was. Both sides are the same.

[bill boyes]

I had tire wear like that. Tires were only about 2 years old. Maked 4 or 5 hauls to region 10 races. Took the the trailer to a local tire guy as the tires are an odd ball size. He tells me they are under inflated. I said they are at 35 lbs. He says 50 psi. WHAT!!!! 50 psi. Yes he says. So I bought these tube fill valve gauges with a green band and red band. Tire wear is a LOT better.

[bobvdinghyracer]

ok my take as a former tech AND also a former store manager of a firestone store in a earlier life ... can be caused by any of several above problems the most likely 2 are out of the above are...align / ie toe/ loose wheel bearings etc ... and tire balance next choice would be tire pressures biggest problem here is once a pattern is there its there the fix is new rubber along with the necessary repairs ,used to see this a lot in small front wheel drive imports AT mostly the rear tires caused by above problems in order mentioned above:)

couple of links ....
http://www.procarcare.com/includes/content/resourcecenter/encyclopedia/ch25/25readtirewear.html
and ..
http://www.justtires.com/services/commonWear.html

[Master Oil Racing Team]

I only just glanced through this just now, but what Sam said about underinflation etc. was my first thought. I think it is still true because of the wear pattern. But other factors must be involved because of the weights you say you are carrying. I don't know anything about the suspension, but what Fast Fred and p28 renegade are saying was along the same thoughts as I had when I read their posts. It's been a long time, and I have forgotten much (not to mention I'm glad I'm away from it), but the cupping as Fast Fred mentions is a common phenomenon. It was at it's worst on our 4 axle lo-boy trailers. The tires were 10:00 15's rather than 10:00 20's on the standard trailers. They were called low profile. They rolled as fast as the truck went that pulled them, BUT...they turned many more rpm's to keep up. Therefore, they got hotter than the 10:00 20"s. Not only that...but the 10:00 15's were low...and the deck of the trailer was low..because they had to haul stuff that would be able to fit under a 17' overpass. Many times these loads were heavy. The heaviest ones required a 3 or 4 axle lo-boy. The 4 axle lo-boys were the worst in tire milage. We had to change tires around all the time. The axles had to be placed in a position to distribute the weight so that the load would pass the weight to axle ratio required by the Texas Railroad Commission at that time (now TXDOT). That meat that the last tandem axle was generally only a few feet in front of the rolling tailboard. It also meant that the last axle usually didn't roll much in a tight turn. In a 90 degree it skidded mostly, and the last four tires would be the first ones to develope the cupping or scalloping. We had to shift the tires constantantly, but generally the 10:00 15's were only good for around 15,000 miles.

So, I don't know anything about the torsion suspension Skoontz, but beyond that I would consider inflation, bias ply, weight, tire size, location of the axle, and where the load is positioned.

[Roy Hodges]

I read ,a couple years ago, an article about boat trailer tires, in Walleye & bass boats MAG. ,and it said that you should NOT use Radial tires on a boat trailer. Just "boat trailer tires !"
I think they were saying that Radials ride too stiff & are really rough handling on your boat .
I got NO idea if they knew what they're talking about . I am somewhat skeptical.

[Skoontz]

This is good stuff guys. I will follow the list and see what the issue is. But, next time, I'm not getting a torsion bar axle. I believe they don't work as well nor last as long for the smoother ride they give.

I'm not even to half capacity here for weight. So, more trailer work for the weekend instead of getting a yickifigon made engine ready to sell.

[Roy Hodges]

another thought . i think that one is supposed to inflate tires , according to the load they are carrying. it seems we ought to get a tire pressure list from the tire manufacturer , that would list the pressure preferred for a certain tire carrying a specified load . I know that there are VERY few tire dealers I would trust to have the real knowledge for this kind of advice .

[Shep]

those tires look overloaded, I have owned alot of trailers and none of the ever had tires that had inflation requirements of less than 50 psi cold. Be sure the load rating on the tire is correct - tires from wal-mart or simaler stores are usally light duty tires, go to a good tire guy. when your figuring the load on the axle don't forget to add the trailer wieght plus the gear. I've had many torsion axles and never had a tire issue. If you need more help email me racershep46@att.net

Shep

[Skoontz]

Those tires are the exact brand/load that Wells Cargo installs new on that trailer...Now, that is not to say they are under specing tires....But, since we have to replace those old dogs anyway, it can't cost over $75 to get the goodest of the goodest.


I just added the weights again...We carry 700 lbs rounded up of engines, props, boat, gear, and food.

The load rating of that trailer is 2000 lbs, excluding the weight of the trailer. The axle rating is 3,000 lbs, and it is a pretty common Dexter torsion flex axle.

Anyhow, I'm gunna do the alignment, get new rubber, check the bearings and try and flex the axles. I'm betting we got a little of all of the above going on here, just a guess, but reading all the great replies, that is what I'm guessing.

Next trailer is going to be a 24' toy hauler with a pot to pee in and a shower....It will have springs, not that rubber band garbage...

Anyhow, thanks again for all the replies....This is gunna be a busy weekend...Puddingstone in 2 weeks and we gots to get testing in somewhere....

[Jakob77]

You also mention above that when you're hooked up, the trailer is tilted toward the rear a bit. Spring axles have all of those shackles and things to help make up for that mis-alignment at the hitch. The torsion axles don't have any of that, so if you have the trailer tilted to the rear, there's more weight on the rear axle than there is on the front.

We've pulled that 44' triple axle trailer all over the place and haven't had any issues with the torsion axles. You might have a hard time finding a Toy Hauler with spring axles, as the room needed for the springs and shackles and such would take away from the inside height of the trailer.

[p28 renegade]

was just next store looking at neighbors trailer. we just took the sport c off of it last nite. with no boat on trailer and in the day lite today i noticed something. right side of axle was back say maybe 3" from a known square angle on trailer. measured and sure enough the right side of axle slipped back. i looked at right tire and it has the exact wear as skoontz trailer.

this was not noticable when boat was on trailer.
get under trailer and start measuring

[Master Oil Racing Team]

So it's like a car going around a corner without a CV joint. They want to go at different speeds but can't. That's similar to what I mentioned about the 4 axle trailer and skidding the tires. It also adds up to the cupping, because a light load will hop under pressure for relief. The thing about that with the light loads is that you can go a long way without ever knowing that's happening. Then when you kind of start to notice...it gets worse and worse with the cupping. The cupping adds to the problem making it get exponentially worse and that's when the wear happens more quickly over short runs and finally you notice it. Not being familiar with that kind of suspension, I haven't thought it through. But if the axle is not square to the frame, you will always be scrubbing rubber every where you go. The hotter the tires get, the quicker the rubber is erased by the asphalt.

[Kermit SST45]

We blew 3 tires in one trip due to misaligned torsion axles on a triple axle trailer. We got a lot of practice changing tires that weekend. Torsion axles have a nice ride but I like springs because you can do the adjustments yourself with a tape measure and a wrench. Nothing worse than being in the middle of no where (between Needles and Barstow or Barstow and Bakersfield) with a flat tire.