Dale Powell Sr. and Bob Montoya-Early Price Craft

[arcticracer]

Again, sorry for the quality. Picture is from around 1967? My Dad, Dale is on the outside driving one of the first Price Craft boats in Region 10. Bob would come to Region 10 to race now and then.

Joe Price came to live with our family, we built a 40' X 40' boat shop that became headquarters for our racing and Joe's work. Joe built dad a CU and DU which replaced his Castegnato CU. I think these are C's, not sure. Don't think Bob had a D. Soon Joe was building quite a few boats, and the rest is history. I think Tom Scheidt got some of the next boats.

Somewhere we have a photo of my Dad's Cast Iron Magneto (Castegnato) CU that had a funky extension built on tho nose so he could run DU with it.

[J-Dub]

I think three of those round sided Price Crafts still exists. My dad still has his (Schiedt's old boat) and I saw Mike Jones still has one and a third one is around the region somewhere. Also there are still two A/B boats around too. Pat Gleason has one stored in my basement and Lauri Gowin has my old one that I believe was also Schiedt's. The D that was new for Tom burnt in a fire a few years back.

J-Dub

[seacow]

Again, sorry for the quality. Picture is from around 1967? My Dad, Dale is on the outside driving one of the first Price Craft boats in Region 10. Bob would come to Region 10 to race now and then.

Joe Price came to live with our family, we built a 40' X 40' boat shop that became headquarters for our racing and Joe's work. Joe built dad a CU and DU which replaced his Castegnato CU. I think these are C's, not sure. Don't think Bob had a D. Soon Joe was building quite a few boats, and the rest is history. I think Tom Scheidt got some of the next boats.

Somewhere we have a photo of my Dad's Cast Iron Magneto (Castegnato) CU that had a funky extension built on tho nose so he could run DU with it.

Back in the 60s those Price-crafts were very competitive. Will Adams, Commodore of East Bay Boat Club in Reg.11 did quite well with his. They were great on the tight turns as well due to the rounded chines. By the way I had a Castegneto DU. One angled chine and one rounded chine. The one I drove held the competition record, made just before I purchased it.

Bob Montoya's boats were also very interesting and very fast. (He sometimes raced in Reg 10 because he originally hailed from Sedro Woolley WA. He moved back there some years ago and also was living in FL as well.) Bob worked at Lawrence Radiation Lab in Livermore CA in Reg. 11 and started the Livermore Outboard Racing Association.

Bob mostly raced DU. He designed and built most of his boats. He built them quickly and inexpensively and they did not have pretty finishes but they were innovative and fabulous to drive. One of his best DUs exceeded 14.5 feet, floated on the straights, was very fast and also a dream on the turns. It had an offset cockpit with a tight aft portion and a left notch forward for the driver to put his knee into the turn- not seen elsewhere back then.

Bob had a flotilla of boats and engines. He let anyone who was safe run a rig and thereby populated the races with robust classes. He shared parts and knowledge with anyone in need. He was a great driver. ( Note the 1-O on his boat in your photo) In one race at Red Rock on SF Bay, I won the first place BU trophy. But Bob had hopped in a BU as an unregistered entry just to show drivers how not to fear rough water and he was a full half lap ahead of me in white-capped waters at the end of one heat. It is for these memories that I was thrilled to see the early picture with your dad and Bob that you posted.

[arcticracer]

Seacow: My Dad held the 5 mile competition records for both CU and DU for awhile, which makes me wonder if you owned his old boat? It was 55+ for CU and 58+ for DU. It would have been around 1966.

[seacow]

Seacow: My Dad held the 5 mile competition records for both CU and DU for awhile, which makes me wonder if you owned his old boat? It was 55+ for CU and 58+ for DU. It would have been around 1966.

Sounds like it might be the one! I recall that I did purchase it in WA and it was the only one that I ever saw on the West coast. It was so long ago I do not recall who sold it to me, even though your dad was very well known to everyone. But you said he has a funny nose extension and this craft at least looked like it was built as a DU. I did well with the boat in Reg 11.

If I recall, it was painted yellow when I acquired it. It had a wide bottom at the transom and beautiful mahogany decking. I had it when I quit racing over politics in Reg 11 and stored it on my ranch. I was in the midst of putting together a 75H to see how it would run as an FRR. Then a brush fire hit the area my ranch was in and incinerated the Castegneto. The 75H was a puddle of aluminum. My trophies, my Hudson and my ranch were destroyed as well.

[arcticracer]

Seacow- I'm trying to get the old brain cells to remember back that far and having trouble! I think he had 2 White Castegnato's, a CU and DU. He earned 2-US but I don't remember if it was one class or both. He sold the DU first, and the CU got the strange surgery to allow him to run it in both classes, so I would imagine you owned his old boat. I was wrong about the Lawrence Lake records, they were 53+ and 55+ not the 55+ and 58+ I posted. He tried hard to get the Kilo records in both classes but never did. I think Ron Hill had the DU record at 70 and change, Dad was within 1 MPH.

I will be visiting him in a couple weeks in Oregon, I'll get into the photos while I am there and ask him since my memory is lacking, heck I was just a kid. He still has the UIM certificates for the records on the wall in the basement.

I really enjoyed reading about Bob Montoya and his boats, thanks for sharing.

[seacow]

Then for sure I had your Dad's boat! And it must have been him that sold it to me. I also purchased a 55-H from him with the boat. He and someone else assembled it from parts while I was there, probably at your house! The reason why I don't remember if it was your dad is that I was jet lagged from an overseas trip having returned the previous day and Abraham Lincoln could have sold me a water witch with an 8 foot pram and I probably would not have noticed anything at all.

Anyway, although I sung Bob Montoya's praises in this thread, it goes without saying that I admired your dad for his winning ways and that is probably why I decided to purchase his rig. To help my fuzzy memory, where was your family living in those days? Maybe that info will clear the cobwebs for me. Not remembering all the details makes me wonder if I am not as young as I think I am!

[arcticracer]

We lived in Eugene, Or. What a story, I will tell him when I visit. My memory too, is sketchy about a lot of this stuff. After a few decades of cramming new knowledge in the old stuff has to have someplace to go! Yes, Bob Montoya was quite a racer although I didn't know much about him. I also remember Don Gano was damn fast, and Tom Scheidt who came along somewhat later. Tom soon was kicking everybody's butt on a regular basis. There are so many others too.

Your story about getting that 55H put together from parts reminds me of a lot of engine work that was done IN THE HOUSE, even on the kitchen table. The good old days.... Anyway after family racing retirement in 1970 I got into racing dirt bikes, never got in another race boat.

[seacow]

We lived in Eugene, Or. What a story, I will tell him when I visit. My memory too, is sketchy about a lot of this stuff. After a few decades of cramming new knowledge in the old stuff has to have someplace to go! Yes, Bob Montoya was quite a racer although I didn't know much about him. I also remember Don Gano was damn fast, and Tom Scheidt who came along somewhat later. Tom soon was kicking everybody's butt on a regular basis. There are so many others too.

Your story about getting that 55H put together from parts reminds me of a lot of engine work that was done IN THE HOUSE, even on the kitchen table. The good old days.... Anyway after family racing retirement in 1970 I got into racing dirt bikes, never got in another race boat.

So that does ring a bell. I was at your home and it was your dad!

Sounds like bike racing is a good substitute for boats. Never-the-less, sorry that you never got in a rig again after the early 70s. For me there has always been a certain "high" from riding one or even watching a race. Although I must say the DU speeds that I, Montoya or even your dad were posting back then are exceeded by most pleasure boats I see these days outside my window here on the bay at San Diego.

[Allen J. Lang]

With pleasure boats obtaining the speeds now that were unobtainable back in the 50/60s, the racers I have talked to say they believe that it is the reason for the lower racing memberships now. I say that you can not get the thrill in a fast pleasure boat that a runabout or hydro gives. :D
Ye Olde Desert Geezer Al :cool:

[Skoontz]

With pleasure boats obtaining the speeds now that were unobtainable back in the 50/60s, the racers I have talked to say they believe that it is the reason for the lower racing memberships now. I say that you can not get the thrill in a fast pleasure boat that a runabout or hydro gives. :D
Ye Olde Desert Geezer Al :cool:

Al: Lets not discount the invention of the squirt gun propelled canoe. Those things are fast, available, now involved in racing, and financing available as well for the person who wants one but can't pay the 10K for one....Turn key....

[seacow]

With pleasure boats obtaining the speeds now that were unobtainable back in the 50/60s, the racers I have talked to say they believe that it is the reason for the lower racing memberships now. I say that you can not get the thrill in a fast pleasure boat that a runabout or hydro gives. :D
Ye Olde Desert Geezer Al :cool:

We have classes that are faster than pleasure boats but I wonder if they are really boats. A single person in an enclosed capsule with oxygen mask and very limited side and rear visibility says more "airplane" to me than it infers "boat".

I agree that there in no thrill like a hyrdo or racing runabout or even OPC, yet.....

The early stock runabouts were raced on the basis of equipment that was generally available to the public at the time. Granted that Mercury undermined that concept with the quicksilver lower unit. Even so, many people, racers and non-racers alike used stock runabouts not only for racing but also for fishing, cruising, etc.

In light of this history, it might be fair to assume that racing suffers because at least in stock classes, we are not racing what the public buys and uses on a day to day basis. I might even argue that since the newer craft are faster and safer, it would make sense to race them. Is cost a barrier? I think not. They are already purchased and being used. Some might opt to race them as well.

[smittythewelder]

No doubt the manufacturers would be happy if racers all used motors that carried their logos prominantly, on the sides of their heavy, bulky cowlings, and used the football-sized standard lower units (okay, I exagerate). But would this lead to more popularity of the Stock Outboard division? In fact, people already can race boats at motors seen in any marina: bass-boats, various OPCs, PWCs, etc., . . . .

[seacow]

No doubt you are correct. Lets just leave well enough alone and we will survive. It is certainly more sensible to use a rope starter, have no neutral or reverse in a runabout class and kneel as if in prayer to pilot your boat so you can achieve startling speeds in excess of 58 mph! The absence of manufacturers logos and cowlings will no doubt interest the remaining handful of spectators (about 80 spectators the stock nationals at Moses Lake) , particularly when they are told that this is a stock class. This "stock" sport is certain to grow when almost all its classes utilize motors that are not generally available, no longer manufactured, hybrid retrofits or are second hand castoffs from parimutuel racing in Japan. We can also expect that the overwhelming popularity of this situation in stock racing will continue to feed adequate graduates to the even more specialized racing classes.

[seacow]

....In fact, people already can race boats at motors seen in any marina: bass-boats, various OPCs, PWCs, etc., . . . .

Good point. If people race these they are stock outboards (except for pwc) and APBA should sanction those as stock races. I am not against the current stock outboard classes, it is just that the name is no longer correct. They could be called classic stock outboards and raced as nostalgia classes.

True stocks are needed in our sport. When stock stopped being truly stock, for a while, we had OPC which once meant outboard pleasure craft. It wasn't too many years before they changed to being outboard performance craft with the advent of the Molinari designs.

Today we have something close to stock with the California Sport C. It has your hated football gear shift lower unit an a small OPC hull but alas, one cannot buy a new motor for this class in the US and class winners pay many $ to have these motors modified as much as the permissive rules provide for.

The emerging 2 liter classic runabout is almost a good true stock class and it has a seat, real draft to the hull, electric starter, stable ride and gear shift - and the rigs exceed 80 mph. And you can take your mate, date or fishing pole on non-race weekends. Alas, the allowed motors are not made any more in an attempt to get achieve class affordability.

[Mark75H]

They could be called classic stock outboards and raced as nostalgia classes.

The nostalgia motors no longer run, Stock is now dominated by the Yamato imports, the upcoming Sidewinders and APBA Merc 2 stroke conversion.

I do agree, the name is no longer appropriate. It should be changed to something like Super Sport Racing.

[seacow]

The nostalgia motors no longer run, Stock is now dominated by the Yamato imports,.....I do agree, the name is no longer appropriate. It should be changed to something like Super Sport Racing.

We do agree in general. Super Sport racing seems like a very good moniker for the current "stock" classes.

About the Yamato imports. Even though they are still made new for parimutuel betting in Japan, I consider them to be nostalgia devices. They seem like the retro refrigerators and toasters. Kind-of reproductions of what used to be, with no cowls, no recoil or electric start with tank on top. Looking somewhat like a 1930s OMC alky motor. Yet somehow not as charming as an old Merc or older OMC. Have they progressed mechanically since the original designs were copied off the 1950s Mercs?

Even though the Yamato may be of current manufacture, it also does not seem to be truly a stock machine because one cannot go into a dealer in the US (except for Ric's) and buy a new or even a used one.

[Mark75H]

They have progressed dramatically since the 1950's Yamatos that were updates of KG7H's. A radical departure was made in the late 1960's and improvements were made roughly every 5 years.

[smittythewelder]

Well, we have strayed a bit from the original subject of articracer's thread, but maybe he won't mind a good arguement.

Sea Cow, when I was racing in the mid-60's (and knew articracer's dad and all the Montoyas) some in the sport were already complaining about the Stock division's irrelevance to what could be bought in your local marina. They waxed nostalgic for the good old days of the previous decade, when all of the Stock motors had last been produced. They complained about fully-decked runabouts that didn't have the (mostly imaginary) "utility" of the older Utility runabouts that had forward cockpits. They spoke fondly of the wildcatters who still had a "B Standard" class for 20" Mercs with the long fishing-motor towerhousing and club-like lower units.

But our out-of-date, not-really-"stock" classes must not have bothered too many others, because we rarely saw a race that didn't have elimination heats, even double eliminations, at LOCAL races, in, at minimum, the A and B hydroplane ("not really boats") classes. In fact, the LEAST popular stock class, with strictly regional appeal, and which we never saw in Reg. 10, was the 36 Class . . . for which you COULD buy a brand new motor at a dealership.

So, it appears to me that all of your objections (and I'm not saying they have no merit) would have pertained to the Stock racing scene 45 years ago, yet Stock racing then was in a state of high activity. Therefore, if Stock racing has scince declined toward being a tiny in-crowd activity, possibly it is due to some other factors than those you've suggested.

[seacow]

I agree that this thread has devolved from its original intent but it is interesting. We are now dealing with two issues. The first issue is that the term "stock" is not very accurate about what is now being raced.

The first race I ever entered was in BU. Because it was my first (but I came in last) I have good recall from my sometimes errant memory banks. The entries included a Water Witch, a Wizard, three KG7-H or Qs, a KG-4, a Martin 200 and three 20-H's. I would bet that all of those motors were at one time or another purchased at a local dealer. Even the Van Pelt I was driving was purchased used at a boat store.

The second issue is the decline of the sport. I also remember the days of frequent. elimination heats. They are gone and I agree with you that the primary cause of decline is not stock outboard equipment rules. I do not know if you would agree that the rules for stock although not responsible for the decline, may not be helpful in this regard. With regard to the club footed 36's they were a viable class in Reg 11 and 12 but like you say, not the most popular. In Reg 11 many but not all drivers were older fellows, not unlike the club-footed Sport C is today in that region. Before sometime in the 70s some of the allure of racing boats was that they were with some exceptions the fastest boats on the water. Now days the club-footed pleasure boats are faster. I think that we could all agree that there are a number of reasons for the sparse fields of drivers these days and most of them have been documented in one way or another in a variety of threads here on BRF.

On another topic that you hinted at, I do not view a hydro as a "boat" but I do like to see them at races. I have driven both and prefer runabouts. My recollection is that hydros were also used as pleasure craft in earlier days. They were kind of like the PWCs of today. A proportion of them were used exclusively for non-racing recreation.

[arcticracer]

Nothing wrong with a thread "morphing" a little seacow. It is an interesting read. I grew up around racing, from birth. Stock racing was a bigtime sport in the Northwest, and elsewhere, just look at the photos of races from days gone by and the large number of racers, families, and spectators.

Today, there are many other activities competing for peoples attention. There are other sports where you can buy racing machines from a dealer, ready to go. Boat racing is different, you have to procure, build, fabricate, you get the idea. Add to that the ever changing rules for engines (out of necessity), and it has been tough to keep the sport going.

The racers and stewards of the sport deserve a lot of credit though, as they will never give up. You are always looking for ways to keep things going, and will succeed.

PS: I will have to disagree about Hydro's not being boats.... Different animals, but still boats haha.

[smittythewelder]

I'm afraid that you would like something, a wide popularity for (what we are currently calling) Stock Outboard racing, that can never happen again. Consider the decline in the once-huge audience for daily newspapers, or even television, now so fragmented that readership and audience numbers which twenty years ago would have been scorned by media execs are now raved about. The same thing has happened to the audience for boat racing; there are just too many other distractions now. The kid in the Fifties (at least in Seattle) who obssessed with his neighborhood chums over the color and sound and sight of Unlimited hydroplanes might enlist his dad's help in building a Chris Craft kit runabout, or work from one of Hal Kelly's plans to get himself into races he has watched LOCALLY, at Green Lake and Lake Sammamish. He didn't want a fishing engine with a speed prop on an ordinary multi-use runabout, either (though his dad might have settled for that); he wanted a real racing machine!!

Today the kids seem to be obsessed with listening to awful music on great sound systems, and doing their "racing," and other simulations of real action, on video screens. The Unlimiteds, BTW, gave away their most attractive and fan-inspiring asset, the earthshaking V-12 piston engines, long ago (the smartest thing USAC/Indy 500 ever did was to ban those d@mned turbines immediately after the first one!!), which means very few kids ever have boat-racing brought to their attention at all. With the fragmentation of the market for sports (college and pro football, basketball, baseball, soccer, tennis, golf, etc., in both men's and women's leagues, sports reporters have no time at all for amateur motor racing. Anyway, maybe dads don't have time to build boats anymore, and anyway why put out the effort when you can go to a local dealer and buy a turn-key PWC for water-borne thrills?

Sea Cow, the world has changed on us (not for the better, in my bald-headed opinion), and such audience as there is for any particular form of amateur motor racing will probably become even more fragmented than it is now. Stock (or whatever you want to call it; a name change will have no effect on this) Outboard and PRO racing will never be anything but little in-crowd activities like birling or bocce ball. So the racers might as well run what pleases THEM, and not try vainly to attract screaming throngs. There certainly are things that could be done to improve the spectator experience, but I doubt that trading in racing engines for fishing engines (or ski-boat engines, or whatever) is necessary or desirable.

[Mad Cat]

I agree, there are so many more things to see and do ! We are into the days of instant gratifacation, I want it now !

My son has found Cross-Country, and that sure beats the heck out of him sitting at a computer (Or X-box) and playing video games. I have taken him to a couple of races here in Region 10, he likes it , But ! I am hoping to get him in a boat for a ride if nothing else and see if the " bug" hits ! After being away for 23 some years, it only takes on sniff of "Alky" to get my blood going ! :D

BTW, I am a 3rd. gen. racer !

[seacow]

Sea Cow, the world has changed on us (not for the better, in my bald-headed opinion), and such audience as there is for any particular form of amateur motor racing will probably become even more fragmented than it is now. Stock (or whatever you want to call it; a name change will have no effect on this) Outboard and PRO racing will never be anything but little in-crowd activities like birling or bocce ball. So the racers might as well run what pleases THEM, and not try vainly to attract screaming throngs. There certainly are things that could be done to improve the spectator experience, but I doubt that trading in racing engines for fishing engines (or ski-boat engines, or whatever) is necessary or desirable.

I agree with your entire post and thought the same even before you posted it.
Although I am an avid spectator and a sometimes racer these days, many stock heats and some stock races are even boring to me. Also true with the other categories ( largely because the fields of boats are so small or non-existent) So, how can I expect or promote that younger generations will find them exciting?

When technology of outboards and motor sizes was in its adolescence, it was understandable that for speed, one needed no recoil or electric starter to have higher rpm from a smaller flywheel and a torpedo lower unit with specialized gearing to also boost speed with boats that would sink if your body was too far toward the transom. Even so, in those days one could purchase this equipment at local dealers. I happily embraced the speed, thrill and low tech aspects of the sport in those days. I no longer do, perhaps because of age, but probably more because I see the newer equipment that is safer more comfortable to drive and faster in its stock form. Even at races, I found the new Reg 12 classic runabout heats thrilling (a misnomer because they have gear shift, electric start and sea-worthy hulls.) These more closely fit the true definition of stock and they have to have rules to keep speed under 90 mph!

I am all for keeping the classes we know as stock but hope the name changes. I agree that people should race whatever they want. I also think that there must be room for racing truly stock equipment that runs at the same or higher speeds in comfort and relative safety with the equipment that is recognizable to the almost non-existent numbers of spectators. Existing drivers are not likely to convert but perhaps these stock classes could attract new drivers (young and old) or bring more former drivers out of retirement. It couldn't hurt to 'test the waters" (pun intended)

In your thinking you did leave room for some improvement of our public profile and attendance by measures that we all might take. Some of my thinking might address that part of it or maybe not.

Please do not misinterpret my positions. I love racing as it is. I just feel that there might also be room for new technology along with the time-tested equipment. And let's have better names to describe what we drive.

[Mad Cat]

Sea Cow;

You are right, we had those classes back in the 60's-80's. Remember SD, SE, SJ , EP , Family Ski and I think it was Ski Jet. Those classes had Showroom stock engines (The jet class was pretty restricted to carbs and exhaust), I know in Region 11 (I raced there in the 70's and 80's), there could be 8 or more SE'S in a race and it was good racing ! John Q. Public would see those and could relate to them, also the Family Ski class was a big class, just a good old ski boat with 2 people in them. What happened to those classes? Family Ski Morphed into MOD VP, SE into SST 60, SD into 45SS, 45 SST etc.

Today we have classes that look stock (ASH,ASR, DSH , DSR and Sport C ) and they have large turnouts at most races that I have seen up here (Except SportC).

You want to attract a crowd, Get 12 1100CC R's on a little course like Sparks, Lodi Lake and watch the people :eek: ! The noise of the Merc 6's, Quincy Loopers, 460 Yamapumpers, 850 Mercs and Konigs was what got their attention.

Maybe we need to develop some classes that go back to SE, or the like, and/or develop some Classic classes like the "old" FRR with open Megaphones ! Good grief, just thinking of a 6 Looper makes me shiver ! :)

We have things in place to get newbies boat rides (Region 11 has its Norcal 400, Region 10 has the ride program at Tacoma) and those have been big hits ! Shoot, give them a ride in a Cracker Box (West coast) or Jersey Speed Skiff (East Coast). If that doesn't get them, Drag Bob Waite out of retirement and let him give a ride in an 1100 CCR !

Ooops, making a book here, sorry !

[seacow]

Right on, Mad Cat!
I agree with all you said about the earlier OPCs.
I double agree about Lodi and Sparks and FRR and Crackers. For me, the only thrill in the world better than watching a race of a robust field of alky 75H's & Koenigs or 460s or Crackers at a course like Lodi is to drive one or a good romp in the hay. I feel sad for any enthusiast that never saw those classes and those courses.

[J-Dub]

FRR's!!!!!!!!! There are a couple of us, my Dad included are attempting to give CPR to FRR right now. We fielded 3 out of our camp alone at Lawrence Lake. We also had Dwight and Mike Kelly driving Erik Korpe's 850 for five entries.
Now in the event Mike Jones would run his (Six merc), Jason Diamond seemed interested too... Add some FER's with riders, like Shaw and Brial Lachapell... That would be a show! Then we try to get NEW interest in the class.
But in the mean time, anyone ever try to field 3 FRR's at once???

J-Dub

[carl lewis]

FRR's!!!!!!!!!
But in the mean time, anyone ever try to field 3 FRR's at once???

J-Dub

does behind my bike when I was 12 count????????

carl

[Mad Cat]

Gee, lets see, 2 in each boat, and at least 3 more to hold it up and rope ! That would be 9 minimum if you started 1 at a time ! YIKES ! :)

If we could drag a couple from down south up it would be like "old" times, a whole herd of them !

Hope to have my act together for next year, at least will be able to "Grunt" and maybe even be a rider ! Rode for Jim Schoenfeldt (Side by side) in the late 70's ! Haven't gotten any smarter in my old age !