Konig meets OMC snowmobile Engineering

[194265]

Just a little back ground on this subject. In 1969 OMC introduced a 437 cc opposed cylinder snowmobile engine rated 25 HP. Now we all know (some of us anyway) that both Evinrude and Johnson have built 4 cylinder opposed engines in the past. Sooooooooo, Snowmobile engineering was asked to put two 25 hp together and see about a possible production 50 hp+ sled. Ok, now we have a 874 cc 54 hp prototype is fan cooled engine, and the next question is how does this compare to our competition? But we have no competition, there are no snowmobile 4 cylinder engines. Enter Konig with a claimed HP of 90 HP @8000 RPM.

The following test was run at OMC Resarch in Milwaukee on 11/11/69 by James Danahue.

Konig VC rotary valve 4 cylinder opposed water cooled racing outboard motor. Bore 2.11 in./ 53.5 cm, stroke 2.13 in/54 cm, displacement 29.64 cu/in, 492 ccm.

Port timing - exhaust port opens at 88.5 degrees atdc, back port opens 107.5 degrees atdc and transfer port opens 114.5 degrees atdc. Rotary valve starts opening 126 degrees btdc, full open 75.5 degrees btdc, starts to close 6 degrees atdc, full close 59 degrees atdc.

Now the big one, - 82.5 CBHP @8500 RPM with stock Konig mufflers, no expansion chambers.

[Bill Van Steenwyk]

Not that it makes any difference all these years later, but because several OMC employees were engaged in Alky racing in this time frame, do you know if the motor tested was one that was purchased specifically for that purpose by OMC, or borrowed from an employee who would get a fee dyno test out of the deal?

[Skoontz]

If they did that rather than build the twin alternate cylinder 650cc junk that blew head gaskets every chance it got, they might be still building snowmobiles!

[Seagull 170]

82.5 would be just a number to OMC, their next question would be where's that coming from? that's a full strip down & measure, that's the chapter I'd love to read.

The next chapter if there is one, is the really informative one & could involve disecting the cylinder to find where it's clever & where there might be more power gained from a production/liner or casting mod.

Did they spend that much money, or was this just a looksee to estimate how much it would cost them to design something with a similar output per cubic inch?

Thanks.

[194265]

Just remember that I am 67 years old (my god where did the time), and my memory is not the best. As far as I know, one day in November '69 the door open at the lab and a Konig was rolled in. Where it came from and who owned it, I do not have clue. I know I had it for a week or so to evaluate physically. You all ready know the port timing etc. Konig uses a press crank, so they can run a much tighter crankcase. Let me step off this for a min. Crank case compression is often referred to as "primary compression ratio". From worst to best is a range of 1:1 -1.4:1, the OMC opposed twin was measured at 1.14:1. And again if my memory is right, the Konig was 1.28:1. OMC believed, at that time, high port timing would would not be good for a production engine. That being the lack of good torque and fuel eff. Looking at OMC and inline Mercury's, one can see that they would have lower Primary compression #'s. How ever the V engines should be better due to the seal rings used on their crankshafts. Some things I did notice about the the porting used on the Konig, was they looks like they where hand ground and varied up to 2 degrees between cylinder. Just know that there is a lot of little things different between a 6000 RPM engine and a 8500 RPM engine, but then you already knew that.

I will address the alternate twins later.

[Bill Van Steenwyk]

The comment about several degrees difference in porting between cylinders on the Konig tested by the OMC lab brought to mind something that Harry ZAK used to do first thing when someone brought a Konig to him back in the late 60's/early 70's to rebuild or try to improve performance on.

He was an admirer of Dieter Konig and his engines in a lot of respects, in fact most respects, but the thing he was never able to understand was some of the little things that were either overlooked or not seemingly cared about in assembly of the engines before exporting to the US. One of these was that he would invariably find the porting on each cylinder of a 4 cyl motor different from another in the same engine. Not ever off by a lot but just not that last little bit to make sure all cylinders were given the best chance to work evenly with the rest so as to have the engine develop maximum power. That and finding the cranks out a few thousandths and not firing the cylinders exactly 180 apart. Another problem, especially after the engine had been run a season or two, would be a intermittent misfire that was very difficult to find. This could usually be traced (after exhausting the other more common problems such as ignition, etc.,) to a poor fit between the bottom of the sleeve flange and the cast block on the exhaust port side, allowing water to leak and be drawn into the cylinder. This was very hard to find because except in the worst cases, it did not happen until the engine reached operating temperature and expansion of the block and/or sleeve in that area allowed a passage for the water to go from water jacket to combustion chamber. I did see several in this time frame that were so bad though, that water would pour into the cylinder while the engine was at rest. This could be determined very easily by hooking a hose, at normal city water pressure, to the inlet side of the cooling system and turning it on and then watching that area with the header removed so as to be able to see around the exhaust port. Some folks tried "water glass" and other types of sealer, but the very best method was to remove the sleeves, face the sleeve flange mating surface on the block casting as flat as possible, and then put an 0 ring groove in the bottom of the sleeve flange so as to seal that surface in the best way possible with a high temp 0 ring.

Just these fixes (which should have never been a problem to start with) could really bring a Konig to life, and the best ones usually had been gone thru in this or a similar manner, checking all the little stuff and making the engine the way it should have been before it was inported into the US.

Harry used to get aggravated with the way a lot of the Konigs were when shipped here, as he was, as most know who knew him, a perfectionist, and he just did not understand how someone could not know these problems existed, and if they did, why they were shipped here for sale to US boat racers in that condition..He used to say (only half jokingly) that there must be two big boxes at the factory, one for all the parts that would be used in engines built for European use, and the other for the not so good parts. We got the engines assembled from that box. That was an exaggeration I know, but I also know he used to find a lot not right that should not have been with a brand new engine.

There were also water leakage problems with Flatheads also, just so nobody thinks he was picking on Konigs. I remember Stan Leavendusky Sr. cussing that problem several times with various customer engines.

If you take the dyno figures achieved at OMC, add expansion chambers to the mix, there is probably no doubt that 100HP was achievable with a good 500 CC Konig equipped with them. And that was just with the standard porting at that time, not even the later models that improved on that considerably with more ports and more efficient porting to go along with the increase in intake area, more radical rotary valve disc cuts such as mentioned in another thread and used by Wayne Baldwin, Tim Butts, etc., the motors developed an amazing amount of HP for the time.

As an example of how that engine design, now 40+ years old has held up competitvely, you only have to look at the Konney engine which is almost a duplicate of the basic Konig design, although with the latest porting technology, pipe design, and intake track goodies. That design still does it's very fair share of winning in PRO racing today, and if Dieter were still here it would be very interesting to see where the engines would be today with the competition provided in PRO racing by GRM and VRP. You only have to compare the Kilo record set by McKean recently to the 500CC 127MPH pass by Dan Kirts with a non-capsuled/laydown Schumaker boat way back in the late 70's/early 80's at Moorehaven, Florida, to see that the engines were plenty powerful back then. Who knows what speeds would be "normal" today in the PRO Category.

We might have capsules mandated in 250CC hydro today, if not for a motorized glider/ultralite airplane accident some years back.

[Seagull 170]

Was the opposed twin a common crankcase twin or 2 singles firing at the same time, in 69 this would be cross scavenged with fractured steel rods wouldn't it?

High crankcase compression seems to have been an European/Japanese fashion little practiced in the states, whereas I can't think of one manufacturer in Europe that used fractured steel rods, & they were way cheaper when you added in the cost of the crank.

Was the Konig a gasoline model?

If we were having a memory loss race, I probably would be in front of you & I'm 9 years younger.

[Dan M]

SeaGull 170,

The Konigs were all methanol powered. Back in the early 70's, I had the opportunity to go to a dyno session with Harry Zak, Ray Hardy, John Winzeler and Tim Butts. Ray Hardy owned a hard chrome plating business in the Chicago area and had a shop that could accommodate the dyno that Harry had constructed for the Konigs. With the original "round block" 3 port 4 cylinder Konigs with Harry's expansion pipes, a 350cc was pulling between 78-82 HP. We changed powerheads to Ray's 500, and saw numbers similar to what Bill has mentioned. They were in the low 100's. We were only able to make 2 runs with the 500 when it ate a piston and stopped very abruptly. The crown separated from the ring groove up. Damaged the dyno in the sudden stop. As Bill mentioned, there was a lot of undeveloped potential in the first generation Konigs. It would be very interesting to find out who owned the Konig that was tested at OMC.

Dan:D

[194265]

A methanol and caster oil mixed a 20:1 ratio was used on the Konig dyno run.
The OMC opposed twin has a common crankcase w/out a full circle crank shaft and uses cracked rods. We referred to it as the pumpkin crankcase. I would like to add some personal thoughts on some of the design features that came down the road to us from Marine Engineering. We where forced to use the small dia. wrist pin that had been use from the late 50's. When working on the prototype Alternate twins' we ran to piston skirt cracking due to wrist pin flexing. We wanted to increase the pin dia. but was told we had to use that pin. Because of that we had to due a major piston redesign. In 1974 Marine Engineering went to a larger wrist pin. Marine engineering introduced in 1971 a new piston ring that was used the 3 cylinder and 125 HP v-4. It was called a pressure back ring and they wanted us to use it also. The ring groove dimension was hard to control and we encountered much higher engine failure rate. I believe that there is a ring flutter problem. And as you know Marine Engineering has move the ring high and low on the piston and is still having a ring problem. Just my .02 cents.

All this is bringing back a flood of memories, some good and some real bad. It makes me feel good that some of you are interested in my history with OMC.

[Skoontz]

Was there any truth to the rumors we heard that the opposed snowmobile engine was sort of morphed from the 600cc Rockwell JLO opposed motors?

We had one and setting next to the 437 OMC, other than the shrouds, there was not a whole lot of difference. Also, do you know of the HP gain when the 2 barrel 125 V-4 carb and manifold was added to the 437cc engine? I put ours around a tree after we added the manifiold and a set of pipes...

[Master Oil Racing Team]

We are very interested in your history with OMC Richard.:cool: It's a treat to hear about some of the inside stories. Anything you add at all about those days is more than we ever knew before. I hope you will keep more of your remembrances coming our way.

[194265]

Was there any truth to the rumors we heard that the opposed snowmobile engine was sort of morphed from the 600cc Rockwell JLO opposed motors?

We had one and setting next to the 437 OMC, other than the shrouds, there was not a whole lot of difference. Also, do you know of the HP gain when the 2 barrel 125 V-4 carb and manifold was added to the 437cc engine? I put ours around a tree after we added the manifiold and a set of pipes...

I don't believe so, the 600 JLO and the Rotax 377 (one year only for Ski Doo in 1967) where both three port engines. I believe OMC chose this because of its there long history with two cylinder opposed engines. Both Evinrude and Johnson built many of them and called them outboards. The original snowmobile engine was designed by OMC Canada was a 362 CC rated at 12 HP. This engine was used on the 1965 E & J sleds, (they also built some under the OMC name) in '66 & '67 they were rated at 14 HP. In late '66 or '67 they moved to Milwaukee. 1968 the power was increased to 16 and stayed there in '69, its last year. The 437, introduced in 1969, was similar, but was a new engine.

The blitz kit was sold in 1970 only, in hopes of wining some races. The kit consisted of Back ported cylinders with 95 degree exhaust ports and a set of 8:1 pistons. Also included in the kit was a set of megaphones, .140 reed stops, a 125 HP outboard carb, and points were to be set at .022. This combination would pull 40 to 42 hp @ 6500 RPM. In 1971 I had a '71 Johnson Rampage with this kit, except I used the stock tuned mufflers. The comb was good for 44 hp @ 7000 RPM, I also had stuffer blocks on the crankshaft and a exp. drive. A stock Rampage (32 hp) would run in the low 60's, mine top out at 74. Ran it for 2 years, then the engine blew, a stuffer block came loose at 5500 RPM.

more to follow.

[Skoontz]

I don't believe so, the 600 JLO and the Rotax 377 (one year only for Ski Doo in 1967) where both three port engines. I believe OMC chose this because of its there long history with two cylinder opposed engines. Both Evinrude and Johnson built many of them and called them outboards. The original snowmobile engine was designed by OMC Canada was a 362 CC rated at 12 HP. This engine was used on the 1965 E & J sleds, (they also built some under the OMC name) in '66 & '67 they were rated at 14 HP. In late '66 or '67 they moved to Milwaukee. 1968 the power was increased to 16 and stayed there in '69, its last year. The 437, introduced in 1969, was similar, but was a new engine.

The blitz kit was sold in 1970 only, in hopes of wining some races. The kit consisted of Back ported cylinders with 95 degree exhaust ports and a set of 8:1 pistons. Also included in the kit was a set of megaphones, .140 reed stops, a 125 HP outboard carb, and points were to be set at .022. This combination would pull 40 to 42 hp @ 6500 RPM. In 1971 I had a '71 Johnson Rampage with this kit, except I used the stock tuned mufflers. The comb was good for 44 hp @ 7000 RPM, I also had stuffer blocks on the crankshaft and a exp. drive. A stock Rampage (32 hp) would run in the low 60's, mine top out at 74. Ran it for 2 years, then the engine blew, a stuffer block came loose at 5500 RPM.

more to follow.

70ish is what we ran with ours as well. Showed many Arctic Cat El Tigres how things are done on the frozen Fox river. Always wanted to install the Wankel motor in a 15" track, loived it's smooth flow of power.


Anyhow, thank you for the stories, brings back lots of good memories.

[bandit]

I seen an omc oppossed powered old golf car not long ago i think it was 14 hp.
I don't remember the brand cart , probably a Harley though he he.
Good info.

[Skoontz]

I seen an omc oppossed powered old golf car not long ago i think it was 14 hp.
I don't remember the brand cart , probably a Harley though he he.
Good info.

If it was a 14HP OMC in a golf cart, it was probably a Cushman. I'm not sure when they actually let that division go, but the Cushman scooter was the work horse of every trade show...

[194265]

If it was a 14HP OMC in a golf cart, it was probably a Cushman. I'm not sure when they actually let that division go, but the Cushman scooter was the work horse of every trade show...

I believe Cushman was spun of in the 80's, Cushman built 2 different engines while I was at OMC and they were both 4 strokes. One was a single cylinder rated at 9 hp and the other was an opposed twin rated at 18hp and was used in the three wheel scooter. The differentials were built at the Evinrude assembly plant next to the outboard motors. Which brings us to the Cushman ATV (track style), this one used a 437 cc snowmobile engine. The 69' and 70' 437 had chrome bores and the later ones had cast iron bores. The change was for cost reasons only, cast iron bores are cheaper. I believe that the Cushman ATV were built in 71' and 72' and they were the ones that still used the chrome bore cylinders. The cast iron ones would not live in that environment.

Now some more comments of interest. When I started with OMC in Jan 1968,
It was the first year of the three cylinder 55, and don't get me wrong it was a sweetheart of an engine. I have a lot of respect for the 55 and all its siblings, but I don't have much respect for advertising. I don't know how many of you remember the the Doctor and his Wife (I am again indebted to my memory or lack of) who drove a boat with two 55 Triumphs from the head waters of the Missouri to the Mississippi with out bit of trouble. Now what I heard was, three power heads, as many gear cases and a possible Divorce.

More to follow.

[194265]

More information, but I need to go back to late Sept of '68. I was working on the second shift to keep an eye on several accelerated engine endurance tests. The reason being we had just introduced the 437 cc (25 hp) in our '69 sleds and were doing some additional CYA. So one evening I was out on the outboard motor test floor killing some time, and they had just put a new 115 hp outboard in the test tank to run for the first time. Now the production Super. was use to seeing the 65 - 100 hp V-4s being tested which took between 2 - 2.5 sec, to accelerate from idle to test speed. He is know looking at a much smaller and nicer looking engine and the tester hits the gas. That 115 hits rated speed in one third the time, and the Super is out of the booth even faster. (with I think), a urge to ****. After seeing this I made up my mind to trade my 1967 Glastron 143V and Merc. 650 in. Enter Edgar Rose he tells Bill Speath (Chief Engineer) snowmobile engine division. Marine Engineering has three years to bring new products out, Snowmobile Engineering has 18 months. I must say that Marine Engineering did a great job updating the V-4's, they had three years, we didn't.

In the summer of '72 we were told to start on a series of three new Alternate firing twins. A 440, 440 and 650 cc engines with a target of 35, 40 and 50 hp.
More to come

[Skoontz]

More information, but I need to go back to late Sept of '68. I was working on the second shift to keep an eye on several accelerated engine endurance tests. The reason being we had just introduced the 437 cc (25 hp) in our '69 sleds and were doing some additional CYA. So one evening I was out on the outboard motor test floor killing some time, and they had just put a new 115 hp outboard in the test tank to run for the first time. Now the production Super. was use to seeing the 65 - 100 hp V-4s being tested which took between 2 - 2.5 sec, to accelerate from idle to test speed. He is know looking at a much smaller and nicer looking engine and the tester hits the gas. That 115 hits rated speed in one third the time, and the Super is out of the booth even faster. (with I think), a urge to ****. After seeing this I made up my mind to trade my 1967 Glastron 143V and Merc. 650 in. Enter Edgar Rose he tells Bill Speath (Chief Engineer) snowmobile engine division. Marine Engineering has three years to bring new products out, Snowmobile Engineering has 18 months. I must say that Marine Engineering did a great job updating the V-4's, they had three years, we didn't.

In the summer of '72 we were told to start on a series of three new Alternate firing twins. A 440, 440 and 650 cc engines with a target of 35, 40 and 50 hp.
More to come

That explains all the loose cylinder heads
, blown gaskets, and scoring on the JX-650's I remember the promo with Billy Kidd, 1964 Olympic ski champion driving through the snow to the sounds of the song from Deliverance...Fastest sled for the year it was released, then the wurlwind of problems....

[194265]

After four days of eating turkey, drinking bottles of wine and seeing far to many of my outlaws, I'm back.

I received the first crankcase and crankshaft for a 440 and put it together. Guess what, it would not turn, we soon found out the labyrinth seal between the two cylinders was too tight. After dealing with that, I fully assembled the rest of the engine. Let me back track a little here, the 437 opposed in it latest form would produce 27 + hp @ 6000 rpm open exhaust. The new 436 engine pulled almost 28 hp @ 6000 rpm, not much hope here. Well the Project Engineer say with all the confidence in world says, don't worry. Noooow advance one year to spring of '73, 5 months to production date. After many months of file here, grind there, and scarp some more, we are now at 28. 5 hp. Our chief engine is now pulling the gray side burns of his face (get the picture). So he calls me, the project engineer, and the lab super in his office and says what do we have to do to fix this. The project Engineer says he's working on it, the lab Super doesn't have a clue. Then he looks at me and says do you have any ideas. Please know that this has been an on going "discussion" between myself and the P.E. for quite a while and he didn't like my suggestions. So I open my mouth and out comes "the porting is all fudged up" the Chief looks at me, the P.E. looks at me, and the lab super is still in la la land. The last thing I hear going out the C.E.'s door is fix the Go Da thing, and the P.E. says to me you fix it. Now the porting on the original cylinders had a bridge exhaust port and two transfer ports on each side of the cylinder. I changed the angle of the transfer ports by about 30 degrees toward the back wall and went to a wide oval exhaust port. We had a set of cylinders made up and put them on the dyno. My lab super, who is still in La La land says to me "if you get any more power out of your cylinders" I will buy you a steak dinner. After starting the engine and running it @ 4000 rpm for a two hour break in, it sounded different, healthier. The moment of truth, 34.5 hp @ 6200 rpm open exhaust, a 6 hp increase. C.E. is happy. P,E. doesn't talk to me for 6 weeks and never did get a steak dinner.

more to follow.